Is this behavior normal or something else?


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TITAN308
December 31, 2011, 07:43 PM
Maybe there is a term for this kind of shooting - maybe its just a weird quirk isolated to myself. Lack of a description keeps me from googling an answer, so I figure I would ask here.

We shall take todays range trip as the example.

Weapon: LR-308 (bench rest configuration)
Distance: 150 Yards
Target: Orange Clays Discs

If I literally put my cross hairs on target and hold for a moment - I seem to hit 1 out of 3 times. Either my breathing or some other obvious flaw sends the shot slightly out of whack.

However what I like to do a lot is aim, shoot, aim, shoot, aim shoot - without breaking. What I mean is while the cross hairs are in motion as soon as they hit center target, trigger, clay explodes, let trigger out, move to next target.

Now think of all this as one fluid motion.

So I says to myself, "Ok guy - lets have a little test".

I set up 30 (yes 30!) orange clays at 150 yards.

What did I score? 30 out of 30 rounds (1 and 1/2 mag) - in about one 75 seconds.

I don't get it. Is this a type of shooting that is known about or has a description?

If I do the "sniper thing" and just hold on target, its a crapshoot! :scrutiny:

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Dr T
December 31, 2011, 08:11 PM
Sounds like you have a flinch in anticipation of the shot. When you are doing your snap shooting, you don't have time to think--and anticipate--the shot. Or, when you are holding steady on the target, you may be closing your eyes just before things go BOOM! (another type of flinch)

Try dry firing at the the clays while concentrating on keeping your eyes open.

wingman
December 31, 2011, 08:13 PM
When you pause to aim your thinking about the shot/trigger at that point my guess is you jerk the trigger instead of a smooth motion,snap shooting works for some it did for me in my youth now I prefer the breath hold and squeeze method.;)

DoubleTapDrew
December 31, 2011, 08:28 PM
I agree with a probable flinch. You are anticipating the shot going off as you get ready to break that trigger. No time to think about that when shooting faster.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
December 31, 2011, 10:01 PM
BWcustoms, If I had to guess, my guess is you shoot a lot of shotgun stuff such as sporting clays, Skeet, and trap? Seems to me from your explanation, you are "slapping" the trigger the same as you are supposed to do in shotgunning. When you concentrate on fixed and focused target your form will not replicate the "slap" motion and you experience flinch.

Practice the slow, methodical, patient target shooting. Your trigger may also be set up to a poundage that does not lend itself well to bench shooting. May be heavy and the "slap" shotgun style will be much easier for you since that may well be what you are used to. If you have an adjustable trigger, and this rifle is ONLY for target style shooting and not hunting, lighten it to about 1.5 to 2 pounds. If it's not adjustable, find you a good target trigger such as a Jewel, Timney or something along those lines.

TITAN308
December 31, 2011, 11:39 PM
Nah, never done any trap or skeet shooting. Don't even own a shotgun.

Right now its just a stock DPMS trigger - while it does have a very pronounced break on the trigger, it is a bit stiff.

Could you recommend a decently priced trigger setup? Or perhaps I can modify the stock one? :eek:

rcmodel
December 31, 2011, 11:42 PM
Sounds like you have a flinch in anticipation of the shot.That is exactly what you have.

If you aren't flinching or jerking the trigger in anticapion of the recoil & blast?
You should be able to call your shots each time the trigger breaks.

Or, tell yourself where the shot hit the target before the scope can be brought back on target to look at it.

rc

TITAN308
December 31, 2011, 11:52 PM
Oh I don't doubt its some newbie issue I am experiencing.

I just find it odd that I can can consistently hit bullseye using this "snap shooting" as oppose to, I dunno - a more patient shot?

Are some people just better with one or the other?

W.E.G.
January 1, 2012, 12:48 AM
offhand or supported shooting?

TITAN308
January 1, 2012, 12:51 AM
Supported.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 1, 2012, 12:58 AM
Oh I don't doubt its some newbie issue I am experiencing.

I just find it odd that I can can consistently hit bullseye using this "snap shooting" as oppose to, I dunno - a more patient shot?

Are some people just better with one or the other?

Sometimes yes they are. Some people have a natural ability for "running shots" as opposed to precision shooting. Your problem would be helped greatly by a good trigger group. I have heard the basic triggers on the DPMS can be a bit crappy to some. ATC (American Trigger Corp) has a new one out at around $280. There are some cheaper ones and more expensive ones out there. The ATC's are supposed to be top notch right up there with the Geiselle. JP fire control also has some adjustable triggers that are pretty close to drop in's that use your existing hammer. Few other ones out there such as Jewel. Do some research and find a good one.

minutemen1776
January 1, 2012, 01:28 AM
Really? The OP shoots 30-for-30 and apparently has a superb rifleman's cadence, and yet a $280 trigger upgrade is suggested? Seriously, if this is just a flinch or anticipation, that can be worked out with more practice. I think the hardware is good, but that the slow-fire technique just needs a bit of work.

WhoMe?
January 1, 2012, 02:05 AM
If it were me, I would buy some snap caps and have a friend load them randomly in my mag. See what the barrel does when you 'fire' the dummy. If that doesn't take care of it, my next step would be to look for patterns in where the bullet hits. Right now we are only looking at where it is missing. I'm too cheap to buy a trigger at this point unless I have another good reason to.

Fred_G
January 1, 2012, 02:38 AM
I agree with the flinch. I am working on that myself. If I shoot my .45 or 9mm fast, I get a large ragged hole with a couple of fliers. If I shoot slow, I flinch and get shots usually low and to the left. I used snap caps, caught myself flinching.

Eb1
January 1, 2012, 02:51 AM
trigger control

JohnKSa
January 1, 2012, 02:52 AM
I don't know exactly what the official term is, but the idea is to slowly approach the target with your sight and when the picture is right, break the shot.

Tubb calls it shooting using an approach as opposed to shooting using a hold technique where you put the sights on the target and try to hold them steady for the shot.

He is definitely a believer in using an approach. I believe his comment is that a very talented rifle shooter may be able to hold a very tight wobble pattern which will give them good accuracy, but even a mediocre rifleman can learn to shoot using an approach technique and get better accuracy without having to fight the wobble that is inevitable using the hold technique.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 1, 2012, 04:56 AM
Really? The OP shoots 30-for-30 and apparently has a superb rifleman's cadence, and yet a $280 trigger upgrade is suggested? Seriously, if this is just a flinch or anticipation, that can be worked out with more practice. I think the hardware is good, but that the slow-fire technique just needs a bit of work.

Considering that they are 2 completely different techniques in trigger application and given that he is having this problem in a BENCH RESTED mode then yes I do feel that possibly one of his problems lies in the trigger. A heavier pull trigger will not be as hard to control in a sweeping type of fire mode as a totally rested slow fire mode. An easier pull also lessens flinch as well. While practice would probably help him somewhat, I believe that a better trigger would help him much more down the road. It will help him to learn to squeeze rather than your typical "yank" which is what happens with heavy triggers. From his explanation, he seems to be slapping the trigger and feels very comfortable (obviously from his results on sweep mode) doing so. But anyone that has experience can tell you that that is counter productive on precision type shooting. And by the way, I only put the price of the upper crust one to give him an idea of what one of the better end trigger groups would cost. The JP one is a little more than half that.

TITAN308
January 1, 2012, 10:48 AM
I will put my vote with the trigger as well. No matter how smooth I try to "squeeze" - the stock DPMS trigger break seems pretty snappy (but as stated very crisp).

The good thing about the DPMS stock trigger is it has a bit of play that lends itself to a 2 stage type action. But doesn't seem to be helping me a lot.

Doing the research on 1 & 2 stage triggers I think due to my shooting style I may be inclined to go with a light 1 stage, as oppose to the 2 stage.

ApacheCoTodd
January 1, 2012, 02:27 PM
I got dizzy reading responses so admit to giving up on them and apologize if this is redundant.

Sounds like you're hitting what you're aiming at and isn't THAT the point rather than if you're doing it in a manner someone else feels is incorrect?

The senior weapons guy (Will) on one of my teams had a self mandated mission to have everyone on the team be as efficient a shooter as possible and in pursuit of such would take it upon himself to draw new fellas (new to SF) under his wing regarding all issues, ballistic. One thing I continually found interesting is that rather than watch the shooter and tell him what's wrong (or right), Will would first evaluate results in several scenarios - his favorite and most practical being "stress shooting".

After viewing the results and referencing the techniques, he would offer up suggestions on how to alter what's not working and capitalize on what is whether it was in keeping with current Army marksmanship dogma or not.

Now, here's where it begins to touch on your issue. One of the techniques he would use with certain fellas when it applied, was to get the shooter to allow the movements that seem to be a part of their particular style and further to control the movement to the degree of a modified figure of 8 with the intersection of the halves being the desired point of impact or at least the sighting point relative to desired point of impact (accounting for range and windage). I started to adopt a further modified version of Will's technique and use it to this day. Keep in mind thought that he had a whole Appalachian-Zen Philosophy thing to go with it that I'm not articulate enough to pass on in writing without extreme rambling.

c.latrans
January 1, 2012, 02:47 PM
Any of you guys ever shoot archery seriously? Ever heard of "target panic"? Sounds like a classic case.....google it or hit one of the archery sights if you don't follow.

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