Whitetail hunting 450 yards


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BGD
December 31, 2011, 08:03 PM
I have a field that I can see across a hollow from my deck that is 450 yards away. I am thinking about setting a corn feeder up next year and hunting from my deck. I have a rock river 308 and a browning A bolt 270 WSM. I am trying to decide on which rifle to use and what optics to buy. I think I may need something with high magnification a 6 X 20. I will set some targets over there do lots of practicing. I have a telescope I can use for seeing where I am hitting during target practice. It should be lots of fun. Whatever optics I purchase I will be stuck with for a while so I want it to be what I need. I think I will be able to spend approx. 1000.00 on the scope. Does anyone have any experience with hunting from this range?

Thanks,
Eric

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jmr40
December 31, 2011, 09:37 PM
I don't normally shoot at that range, but either gun is capable if you are. The 270 WSM will shoot a lot flatter if it is accurate enough.

Are you referring to a 6-20X scope, as in 6 power to 20 power? Normally a 6X20 refers to a fixed 6 power scope with a 20mm front objective. At any rate that is way more power than you need. You could make that shot with a fixed 4X scope. Any quality 3-9X40 scope would be plenty, and cost much less for a scope of equal quality.

The real key is, can you make that shot? The equipment will do it.

BGD
December 31, 2011, 10:01 PM
I have a 2.5 - 10 X 50 on my 270 WSM I will play with that and see if I need a higher power to see the target well enough.

Thanks,
Eric

proven
December 31, 2011, 10:06 PM
i have to be honest with you, that sounds like being lazy....not hunting. to each his own i suppose.

trex1310
December 31, 2011, 10:10 PM
Sounds like a very bad idea all around. IMHO.

crazysccrmd
December 31, 2011, 10:19 PM
I think that's a pretty awesome idea. It certainly isn't anymore lazy then a guy sitting up in a tree stand above a feeder waiting for a deer to approach for a 50yd shot. You should be able to set up a really nice shooting platform for yourself where you have room to lay prone and take full advantage of the range (unsuspecting deer) and wait for the best shot. Also plenty of off season time to become proficient with making that long shot or set reference points in the clearing to help with ranging.

Ridgerunner665
December 31, 2011, 10:24 PM
I'd probably use the 270 WSM with a high BC 140 or 150 grain bullet...you don't really need a scope that powerful, a 4-12x variable will do fine (use your telescope if you need more to check for antlers)

Either gun will "go the distance", but the 270 will be less affected by wind, bullet drop is easy (constant), but wind is what will kick your butt.

You can get a very good 4-12x scope for around $350, my son just bought a Nikon Buckmasters 4-12x40mmSF with a Mil-Dot reticle for $300 (on sale), we looked at the Monarch 4-16x42mmSF ($449)...but we both agreed that the Buckmasters version seemed to be the better optic.

788Ham
December 31, 2011, 11:12 PM
"IF" you hit a deer at that range, how long is it going to take you to get over there and check on your animal? My point, if its a wounded animal and runs off, how soon will you be able to find it? A wounded animal that runs off and dies a slow agonizing death, that ain't pretty, not ethical either! My opinions. Possibly you should shoot at a closer range until you can hit consistently, then move your target out. Gambling on hitting an animal that far away, not for me! YMMV

Dmitri Popov
December 31, 2011, 11:43 PM
"IF" you hit a deer at that range, how long is it going to take you to get over there and check on your animal? My point, if its a wounded animal and runs off, how soon will you be able to find it? A wounded animal that runs off and dies a slow agonizing death, that ain't pretty, not ethical either! My opinions. Possibly you should shoot at a closer range until you can hit consistently, then move your target out. Gambling on hitting an animal that far away, not for me! YMMV
With all due respect I know people who can't make a 50yd shot yet alone a 450yd shot.
If this guy is confident in his ability, more power to him.

That being said, I think the real problem, as others have said, will not be with the equipment, but with the shooter. Practice, lots, before deer season comes in.

Savage99
January 1, 2012, 12:07 AM
To BGD,

If you must do it I suppose its legal however I would not tell anyone what I did.

Buy some meat in the store and hunt deer but not like that.

mshootnit
January 1, 2012, 12:26 AM
If you have the chance to set up and pre sight your rifle in at that distance, all you need is around 8 power for a deer at that range. As far as which gun it doesn't matter because both retain more than enough energy at that range and you could sight either to be dead on at that distance. Wind will be a factor up to about 14 inches at that range if there's a stiff side wind. I would pick the rifle that shoots the smallest group and that you are most comfortable with. In my part of the country deer are shot at this range occasionally though I believe my farthest shot to be about 350 yards.

I used to practice on a piece of 10" I beam at 400 yds and got quite comfortable hitting at that range. 450 can be done, just sight in and practice.

Dmitri Popov
January 1, 2012, 12:34 AM
To BGD,

If you must do it I suppose its legal however I would not tell anyone what I did.

Buy some meat in the store and hunt deer but not like that.
I'm truthfully not seeing an ethical question here.
The general rule for an ethical shot is one that you can get a clean kill, with one shot, from a distance that is within your ability. If he is capable of accurately making a clean shot at 450yds, then I see no reason why he shouldn't. If all you ever do is take the super easy, close range, completely un-challenging shots, how is that testing your abilities as a marksmen, or a hunter?

snakeman
January 1, 2012, 12:39 AM
If I can take a antelope cleanly at 516 yards in a 40 mph crosswind with a 257 weatherby, you can get a deer from 450 with your wsm :what: with practice :neener:

T Bran
January 1, 2012, 12:41 AM
Run the feeder year round so they get used to the gunfire that way it you miss they wont even run off.
Now to be serious reading wind is the trickey part as it may not be the same over there as it is over here or could gust any place in between. At the very least put up some wind flags at the feeder and someplace in the middle to help estimate it. Practice a lot when you can hit clay pidgeons every time you are all set.
LUCK
T

BGD
January 1, 2012, 12:45 AM
It is about 15 minutes away on a 4 wheeler. In my experience going after a wounded animal Just makes them run that much farther into the woods. Most of the hunters I know will sometimes wait 15 minutes before getting out of their stand to give the animal time to die and avoid having it run farther into the woods.

Living on a farm has many advantages if you like venison. I have shot more deer walking through my yard than in the woods. One time my baby son was sleeping on my bed and I whispered to my wife to pick him up and move him because I didn't want to scare him while I killed a deer from my bedroom door. We still laugh about that.

I would never take a shot that I thought was a gamble. I don't like dressing gut shot deer and I haven't had to yet. I have watched and laughed at my brother as he gagged while he field dressed a deer that ruptured its guts. Hunting from 450 yards sounded like it could be fun. I would never risk wasting venison it is just to good to eat.

I will set some targets up and see how it goes. If I find I cant hit at that range I wont hunt from there. It will be fun finding out. I was just curious if anyone though I need more magnification that my 3.5-10x power scope on the 270. I have not purchased a scope for the 308 yet and am willing to buy a scope with higher magnification.

snakeman
January 1, 2012, 12:45 AM
I practiced and practiced and practiced and more practice! It cost me quite a bit of money but my antelope didn't go anywhere.

BGD
January 1, 2012, 01:05 AM
Snakeman- what kind of optics do you have on that 257 weatherby?

mshootnit
January 1, 2012, 01:15 AM
As far as magnification goes I don't think you need real high power for a deer at that range, now maybe for a prairie dog or coyote maybe. And not for crosshair placement but just for seeing what you are aiming at better. Heck a good marksman with a good rifle could make that shot with NO scope at all on a deer. I think its just what you like. I know that 14 power would be plenty. And I have a good feeling that 10 power would be good enough.

Eb1
January 1, 2012, 02:00 AM
Set markers also at 400/350/300/250/200/150/100 yards. Run the feeder year round.
If a boiler room shot is made @ 450 and the deer runs off. It will be dead by the time you get there :). Most likely it will be a bang flop on a deer that is totally unaware.

I'd use the .270 WSM if it is accurate enough, and at least a 14x power by 50mm scope, and lay prone on a good mat, and use a good leather sling, and use it correctly with a shooters glove.

BGD
January 1, 2012, 02:43 AM
The way the land lays I will not be able to set markers. There is a deep wooded hollow between my house and the field. the ground drops about 200 feet before rising 150. I have my rifle zeroed at 200 yards. It would be handy to have a scope that can easily turn the elevation up or down. I will probably just practice with a hold over at first and see how that goes. I have some large pieces of cardboard that I can fasten to a t-post to shoot at.

snakeman
January 1, 2012, 02:46 AM
It wears a nikon buckmasters mildot 6-14x40 sf. Sighted for 300 my holdover was thirty inches and drift was somewhere around two feet. 100 grain s.p. factory load.

sixgunner455
January 1, 2012, 03:10 AM
I don't see what the big deal is about the 450 yard shot. Dope out your trajectory, practice, and practice, and practice. That kind of range isn't uncommon where I live (high mountain desert). People hunt with spotting scopes and big binoculars and have bipods on their rifles.

Personally, I'm not confident past 400 yards yet. More practice is in order for me.

I prefer to shoot them closer, but it's not always possible.

OP, you don't need huge magnification, you need quality. A clean, clear 2.5-10x or 3-9x will do.

Ridgerunner665
January 1, 2012, 03:19 AM
450 yards is easy with a decent optic, an accurate rifle that has the power to do the job, the right bullet (150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip), and a working knowledge of how your rifle shoots at the given distance (practice, not a ballistics program).

Heck, things don't get really complicated until you get past 600 yards...you don't need a heavy barreled 30-378 Weatherby to cleanly kill a deer at 600 yards. Even the 308 has PLENTY of power to do the job, I've taken deer at 800 yards with a 308...1 shot kills, dead within 50 yards.

I killed a coyote last week at 375 yards with a brand new 30-06 that I had only spent one day at the range with, with factory ammo...I spent 40 rounds firing at 300 yards, getting familiar with the trajectory and wind doping.

I put that bullet EXACTLY where I wanted it...right through the shoulder, just like I would have a deer.

EDIT TO ADD: The scope on this rifle is a Nikon ProStaff 3-9x40mm, its just a scope I had laying around...I'm gonna put a 4-12x on this rifle soon (not sure which flavor just yet)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc137/Ridgerunner665/1226111623.jpg

I'm no professional shooter of any kind, I've never competed (except in "loser buys the beer" competitions) and I have no desire to...I'm just a guy that has enjoyed shooting at long range since he was a kid. I started out busting groundhogs with a 25-06 when I was about 13 and I will never forget the sense of accomplishment I felt when I finally connected with one at 500 yards...it took a lot of trial and error for me to figure it out back then. I didn't have the internet to tell me it couldn't be done...instead all I had was Jim Carmichael's "Book of the Rifle" which explained ballistics in a way that a simple minded country boy like me could understand.

With that book....and a lot of rounds fired...I figured it out (reading wind, understanding bullet flight, ballistic coefficients, etc.)

What I'm trying to say to the OP is this...Hitting a 6 inch target at 450 yards (or even 600) is fairly easy with LOTS of practice, an accurate rifle (does NOT have to be a heavy barrel), and enough common sense to know when to shoot and when not to...

If you're not positive that you can make the hit (due to wind, etc.)...don't pull the trigger!

DRYHUMOR
January 1, 2012, 05:53 AM
I would opt for something with a higher magnification, something that will magnify and help define details. I have a 8.5-25x50 and it seems to stay on 25X all the time.

As to practicing. Get a full size paper archery target of a deer, cut the deer out of the background and make cardboard cutouts you can shoot at. You can stake them broadside and right/left quartering. Consistent hits in the vital zone, at that range, should dictate if you are willing to take the shot when the time comes.

Berger VLD Hunting bullets may be worth trying if you reload. I've been using them in 257 Roberts and 260 Remington, and am pleased with the accuracy. You may find, that when they are loaded/seated for the best accuracy, you may be at the point of single loading due to the bullet length.

An honest evaluation of your rifle's accuracy (or lack of ) is a must.

CollinLeon
January 1, 2012, 06:14 AM
Where you located at to have those long shots available to you?

Around here, I'm lucky to be in an area where it can even see 50 yards... The underbrush is just a bit thick where I've been hunting lately... Plenty of tracks, but haven't stumbled over anything yet this year... Or maybe I should say *last* year... :)

dldbrandon
January 1, 2012, 07:25 AM
One of the messages that I see that gets repeated a lot on this forum is to get the best scope that you can. Using this philosophy I would recommend the Vortex Viper PST in a 4-16x50 setup. The scope does have an illuminated reticle, therefore check your laws about using one for hunting. The Viper HS model does not have an illuminated reticle.

The key here though is to practice as much as possible so you are comfortable taking an ethical shot. It's a simple concept on paper, but when you're in the field and that trophy buck is right at the edge of your limits are you able to hold yourself back when you know it's out of your limits? Or are you going to risk an unethical shot.

Sav .250
January 1, 2012, 07:40 AM
Seeing out to 450 yds is one thing .....hitting it is something else.

Geno
January 1, 2012, 08:47 AM
The set-up you have is more than adequate. I question if you can make the shots, not the gear. Start practicing. Get a 15" steel gong and hang it out at whatever range you choose. You'll know soon enough if you're hitting your target.

Myself, I prefer a scope in the 3.5-10 or 3.5 to 15 range with adjustable objective lens. The longest shot I have made was 525 yards with my Mark V in .257 Wea Mag. When hunting, I prefer to keep the scope set at 5X. After all, you will be shooting to center-of-mass on the deer, not target shooting.

Geno

forindooruseonly
January 1, 2012, 11:26 AM
If the OP has enough shooting AND hunting experience to make a clean shot on a live animal at 450 yards, then I doubt he would have asked the question about which rifle is better for the job.

No offense, but it's something I feel pretty strongly about. I live in an area has a lot of hunters who regularly make more difficult shots than they should and end up wounding a lot of animals. We'll find them on the farm, dying or dead from a lousy shot. Other farmers around us have seen the same problem.

It's not sporting or ethical to push the limits - there is a living thing on the other end that deserves to be killed cleanly. If you are at your limit, there is a good chance that when buck fever hits and your heart rate is up and you are breathing heavy, you'll pull the shot.

Have some respect for the deer as something other than a target.

HOOfan_1
January 1, 2012, 11:59 AM
A .308 zeroed at 100 yards is going to drop ~30-45 inches at 450 yards, and likely have less than 1000 ft-lb of energy.

The 270 WSM zeroed at 100 yards is going to drop ~17-25 inches at 450 yards and have well over 1000 ft-lb of energy

sixgunner455
January 1, 2012, 12:23 PM
forindooruseonly - there is likely something to what you're saying about pushing the limits, but he's a year out from next season, and he wants to get his gear set up and practice with it. I can't see anything wrong with that.

Coltdriver
January 1, 2012, 12:31 PM
Well it sounds like the OP has the perfect set up for making a long shot. If I could have an identical set up I'd give it a go too. I just don't have the skill to make a shot like that in the field, but from a known position with practice? I'd absolutely learn it and go for it.

You have plenty of time to practice and get your rifle and scope dialed in.

The only big complication you have to deal with is your exact distance. I am not familiar with a .270 but the arc on a 308 is getting pretty steep at 450 yards.

I just tried the Winchester Ballistics calculator and a 150 grain .308 round. At 425 yards you are 6 inches high of a zero at 450 yards and at 475 yards you are 11 inches low.

I would definitely go with a 6x20-40 scope to get as much magnification as possible. Also using a reticle that is graded or certainly other than a post and cross hairs type would be important. Leupold makes their 6x20-40 with a long range reticle. All you have to do is learn where it hits at each mark, dial in for 450 yards and have at it. The very slightest movement makes a major difference at that distance so given your set up I'd probably get a bench rest sled too.

I had a very good friend who was able to zap a prairie dog at 1000 yards witnessed, more than once. He used a .243, a 6x20-40 scope and a bench rest on a portable seat he made. I am not recommending a .243, you already have the right rifles, but it is definitely possible to do.

gbran
January 1, 2012, 12:36 PM
I have a field that I can see across a hollow from my deck that is 450 yards away.

450 yards away at what point in the field? How big is the field? You may want to pre-plant visible paddles with known distances in your field for reference. Both the 270 & 308 will have a mild rainbow-like trajectory at those distances, but might be critical if your deer is at 410yds v 495yds or vice-versa.

Eb1
January 1, 2012, 12:39 PM
I have mentioned this, gbran, and the OP said he could not set markers. See post #20 http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7840844&postcount=20

sixgunner455
January 1, 2012, 12:41 PM
gbran - more than "might" be critical, it is absolutely critical at those kinds of ranges to *know* your rifle, your load, your trajectory, and where the deer is. This kind of shot is do-able. It's all kinds of fun to shoot at long ranges, but when you add a deer as the target, you have to be sure that you aren't just throwing lead and a prayer down range.

gbran
January 1, 2012, 12:41 PM
I have mentioned this, gbran, and the OP said he could not set markers. See post #20

Sorry, should have scnned responses better.

GooseGestapo
January 1, 2012, 12:43 PM
Just because you can hit something doesn't mean the bullet will perform as intended when it gets there. The reason for the extra velocity of the magnum rifles is to raise the impact velocity at the extended ranges to get the desired bullet performance.Not just bullet drop per-se. 450yds will be pushing the minimum impact velocities for most big-game bullets from the .308. The .270wsm will be the logical choice with preference going to something like a Nosler or Hornady bonded plastic tipped bullet for better impact velocities. A typical quality 3-9 is more than enough scope. I hit a deer at 545yds earlier this season with my .260Rem. But, as point made above, I failed to find the deer, even though it was in the broad open on an airport. The 129gr Hornady PtSpt "Interlok" didn't hit enough solid bone to expand. (observed mid-lung impact on broadside deer. Wind according to airport automated observation system stated wind was "calm".

Windage will still be the "unknown" variable.

Lastly, is it legal to hunt over bait in your jurisdiction/area. In the northern portion of Georgia, it is NOT legal to hunt over bait. A conviction for such can get you up to 2yrs in prison and a $5,000.00 fine (recently made a misdemeanor of high and aggravated nature to take big-game over bait in areas where not allowed). The game hunted has to be at least 200yds from the baited area and said area out of sight from the hunter. That would rule out your 450yd shot from not being hunting over a baited area....
Just so you know.....
(btw, a gamewarden has already seen your post...... just be aware.... you ARE being watched....).

Eb1
January 1, 2012, 12:44 PM
I suggest you zero @ 200 yards, and then set your scope marking to "0", and then shot at known distances @ 250, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500 yards, and write down the number of clicks for each distance, and tape it to your rifle's stock. Get a range finder, and then reference the chart you created.

What you also should do is set a shooting flag beside the feeder. That way you know what the wind speed is at the feeder's location. It is a simple calculation, but will assist you with your windage dope, and save that information as well during your practice runs.

Eb1
January 1, 2012, 01:00 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7841488&postcount=37

Didn't know thehighroad.org was a place to make threats by law enforcement. Even if you are a Wildlife Officer.
Seems like you should just explain the law, and then let the person make their own choices, but threatening someone seems wrong even if you are law enforcement.


Rule 4. Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.

Moderator, is thehighroad.org a place where law enforcement can/should make threats? Is that what this sight is used for now?

redneck2
January 1, 2012, 01:33 PM
From the OP, it seems pretty clear he has a pretty good idea of hunting. I personally find the threats by the game warden over the line. You should know that laws vary significantly state to state. Twenty miles north of me in Michigan, it's legal to hunt over bait. Not here.

You know, it's amazing how many guys think it's absolutely impossible to make a 400 yard shot. I suspect many are the internet warriors that buy a 9mm pistol, an AK, or shortie AR and blast Winchester white box by the hundreds at pop cans 25 yards away.

I was on a PD hunt in Montana this past fall. Shots and hits with .22's at 100 and better were pretty common after a day or two. Takes practice. A prairie dog (smaller than the size of your foot) was toast if he was less than 300 yards or so and I had my Bushie AR.

My friend got his antelope at 347 yards, one shot with a 30-06. I got a 1,000 yard rangefinder for Christmas. Old one quit at 400. Not long enough.

Back years ago I routinely took ground hogs at 300+ with my 22-250 and cheapie 10x scope, and I was just a high school kid with factory ammo.

We got a life size cut-out of a buck just this past fall. For grins we set it up at 200 yards, lazered. My friend was shooting his muzzle loader and .44 mag rifle. Hit 3 for 3 in the kill zone. This was from a REALLY good rest at a known range

So yes, he said said he was gonna practice. I see it no more or less ethical than guys down south using beagles that blast away on running deer with buckshot.

And no, I'm far from the best shot in the world. But, I do actually shoot.

Art Eatman
January 1, 2012, 01:38 PM
Eb1, GG's error was in the old "assume" thing.

Hunting over bait is quite legal in many places, so I don't see the point in worrying about it. If a game warden wants to watch me kill a buck over bait, fine by me; he can bring the coffee and then help drag Bambi to the truck. :D Shucks, I can borrow his pen to fill out the tag...

Shooting from a porch deck? Think "benchrest at home" and it really isn't all that difficult a shot. I have a shooting table at my house for my 500-yard range, and doing the clang-and-bang isn't any big deal. Fun, though. :)

At 450, wind is the enemy, the major problem. If you know your trajectory, 450 is no big deal on a calm day.

So, back to the actual question: I'm guessing that the WSM would have less wind drift than the .308.

If the majority of one's experience is in the usual 200 yards or less, then a good bit of practice is needed before going on out into Ma Bell country. But if a person does indeed work on shots to four and five hundred yards, they are just not all that difficult--and as I said, wind is the main problem.

As far as the scope? Lordy, most any decent 3x9 would be plenty good. I found out that a 3x9 set on 3X was still plenty good to kill a buck DRT at 350, so I've not worried about all that magnification stuff except for prairie dogs. :D

Eb1
January 1, 2012, 01:44 PM
I shot two does @ 300 yards with a .25-06 that had a Bushnell 3200 1.5x-4.5x by 32mm and the FireFly Reticle set to 4.5x.

It was the only scope I had to put on the rifle when I bought it, but it worked out fine. It now has a Bushnell 4200 3-9x40 with a fine reticle.

hiker44
January 1, 2012, 01:52 PM
I have joked with my wife that I should just draw a chalk circle on the hill 200 yards out from the house, sight the rifle for that range and when the deer walks in the circle, just pull the trigger. This year, however, all the deer have been staying well within 50 yards of the house because that's where the water trough is. Go figure.

jmr40
January 1, 2012, 03:31 PM
The 270 WSM would be better, but make no mistake about the 308's ability at that range. You are still very near 1500 ft lbs of energy with only 23" of drop with a 200 yard zero at 400. With a ballistic reticle scope the drop and energy is no problem. The only factor is wind.

I don't have numbers handy for a 270 WSM, but do for a 7mm Rem mag. Shooting 160's at 3000 fps the 7 mag will only have 6" less drop than a 308 shooting 165's. I'd bet there is very little difference between the 270 WSM and 7mm Rem mag trajectory.

For guys who know how to shoot 450 yards is not long range. Anyone with a fairly decent rifle and optics should be able to make a 300 yard shot look easy. Going to 400 or so only requires a bit more skill, and if the range is known, no special equipment. It is when you start getting to 500 and beyond that it requires specialized expensive equipment, lots of skill and a little luck.

If the OP puts in the time to practice, and is shooting at a known distance, this is entirely ethical and very doable with either gun.

PowerG
January 1, 2012, 05:46 PM
Either rig is fully capable of making this shot, I've done quite a bit of long-range deer hunting and have done most of it with a 7mm-08. Others have pointed out some of the pitfalls, and there are some things to be aware of; finding the deer can indeed be more difficult than it would seem, and for good shot placement the range to the target must be known fairly precisely.

The bullet I've had the best success with from the 7mm-08 is the Hornady Interlock, don't know what happened GG but on broadside shots it has never failed to exit, and good shot placement put even large deer down almost DRT.

All that said, after a while this kind of hunting became unsatifactory to me, I much prefer the challenge of getting close.

ms6852
January 1, 2012, 05:54 PM
You really do not need high magnification. For many years the military used only 10x fixed scopes for their snipers. I personally find that when shooting beyond 400 yds if I dial up the magnification all it does is amply my heartbeat, if it is a hot day it amplifies the heatwaves, if it is misty .... well you get my drift. We have land that allows us to shoot over a mile safely if need be and when I shoot at silhouettes my scope is usually dialed between 7x and 10x. I have a 4x16x42 sightron and a monarch 2.5 x 10. The extra power from the sightron is to help me identify deer, antlers, and such but for shooting it has never been above 10x regardless of the distance, but regularly they are usually around 4x to 6x power. This gives me the clearest picture without magnifiying my heartbeat or atmospheric conditions.

JDGray
January 1, 2012, 06:18 PM
Sniping deer at that range is fun, I agree its not hunting. Use the flatest shooter you got, with as much scope as you want, and as you said, practice:) Took a few does this fall at 300+ yards, dropped in 25yrds, used my 22-250......FUN!

HOOfan_1
January 1, 2012, 06:27 PM
Took a few does this fall at 300+ yards, dropped in 25yrds, used my 22-250......FUN!

What type and weight of bullet are you using?

JDGray
January 1, 2012, 06:30 PM
55gr Nosler BTs, 3700fps, both double lung shots.

BGD
January 1, 2012, 07:04 PM
Thanks for all the input!!! Flags are a good idea. I am going to do lots of practice before I would be confident enough to shoot a deer a 450 yards. I have been hunting deer for 30 years probably have taken 75 and have only lost 1. Funny how its the 1 you couldn't find that you remember. I would never take a hail Mary shot at a deer. It is legal to hunt by a corn feeder here in Arkansas.

VA27
January 1, 2012, 09:06 PM
Whitetail deer at 450 yards? The deer can't see, smell or hear you. That's not hunting, that's shooting.

I have a friend who's 6' 4" and weighs over 350lbs. This last season he took a nice Antelope with his recurve bow at about 35yds. THAT's hunting.:D (The boy does have stealth, yes he does!)

benzy2
January 2, 2012, 12:08 AM
I think the best answer is to get some ammo you want to hunt with and start getting lead in the air at targets that aren't alive. Once you feel comfortable with one of the two rifles you won't have to ask which to use. It's a scary question to hear. It really is one of those "if you have to ask" type questions. Go look at a few tables to get the basics down for each option, pick the one that seems better and get practicing. A 450 yard shot isn't impossible as some want to make it sound but it's also not as easy as others imply. Again, get lead in the air with the one that shoots best and see where your at. Any quality scope with mid power magnification should be plenty.

CollinLeon
January 2, 2012, 12:58 AM
Whitetail deer at 450 yards? The deer can't see, smell or hear you. That's not hunting, that's shooting.

I have a friend who's 6' 4" and weighs over 350lbs. This last season he took a nice Antelope with his recurve bow at about 35yds. THAT's hunting.:D (The boy does have stealth, yes he does!)
Well, one could argue that training deer to come to a deer feeder each day of the year and then shooting them from the back porch when they do it during deer season is not hunting, but rather "harvesting"... Not that there is anything wrong with it... It's just not what we used to call "hunting" back when we were young... On the other hand, your BBQ pit is not going to know the difference between either way of acquiring that venison... :)

Arkansas Paul
January 2, 2012, 01:55 AM
i have to be honest with you, that sounds like being lazy....not hunting. to each his own i suppose.


I have to be honest with you, that sounds like an incredibly awesome easy way of eating venison to me. I've eaten deer that were shot by my dad from his patio door and I couldn't tell any difference in the taste whatsoever. Happy hunting.

Oh yeah, either of your rifles will do the trick, but I would go with the .270 WSM myself. The .308 will get the job done at that range, no doubt, but I'm sure the extra power won't be wasted and you won't have any doubts.

With a $1k budget for a scope, your options are great. A few of the guys at deer camp have Burris Illumiators that are just awesome. They're range finding and when you get them programmed for your ballistics they give you a point of aim after you range it. Guy has one on a 7mm STW and it's just incredible. They're just inside your price range. I don't know that I would buy one personally, but they're the cat's meow if you like long range shooting.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/569967/burris-eliminator-laser-rangefinding-rifle-scope-4-12x-42mm-eliminator-reticle-matte

Eb1
January 2, 2012, 03:04 AM
Those scopes look like the cat's meow. I have seen videos of them. Nice!

The .270 WSM shooting a Nosler BT aimed using that scope would be a nice setup for killing deer @ 450 yards.

Damon555
January 2, 2012, 10:50 AM
Before buying anything try to make a 450 yard shot at a target where you intend to hunt...It will be a sobering experience.

Tirod
January 2, 2012, 11:38 AM
It's probably not going to be a question of if someone can hit a deer at that range. It's going to be whether the specific visibility is good enough that day.

Deer tend to be nocturnal when pressured, an open daylight shot at an exposed corn feeder during the legal season is a low percentage situation here in SW MO. With overcast, fog, haze, or simply being too dark, the number of times you actually get a shot isn't going to be very much.

Given the description of the terrain, I'd be inclined to set up alongside the depression so that I could look down it lengthwise, and be able to see the feeder in it. I suspect there's plenty of traffic in it as it offers a concealed path negotiating the open high ground in daylight.

velvethunter
January 2, 2012, 03:44 PM
If the scope on the 270wsm is of decent quality, that is plenty of scope for a 450 yard shot at something the size of a deer. And the wsm will have more enery at that range than the 308, so I feel it's the better choice. You have an advantage of practicing the exact shot you will be taking hundreds of times if needed, so if you practice enough this could be an ethical shot to take. The one thing that isn't talked about much though is knowing if you made a hit at these long ranges. Using the buddy system and having someone verifying if/where you hit the deer is a huge help.

Ridgerunner665
January 2, 2012, 04:06 PM
You can usually hear a bullet impact at anything over 300 yards...its an unmistakable sound once you're familiar with it...bullet impact on a deer sounds a lot like smacking hung up rug with a broom stick (such as beating the dust out of a rug).

Float Pilot
January 2, 2012, 04:39 PM
With the possible exception of Mountain Goat I try to never make a shot of a game animal past 300-350 yards. I personally do not believe that you can make a human kill via a follow-up shot even at that distance. While my rifles and (at times) I am able to make a longer range shots, I do not think it is ethical or sportsman like. .




bullet impact on a deer sounds a lot like smacking hung up rug with a broom stick (such as beating the dust out of a rug).

With slower bullets like the 45-70 or my black powder 50-90 loads you can hear the bullet impact at shorter ranges. I equate the sound of a 600 grain 50-90 bullet hitting a caribou at 200 yards to a sound similar to smacking a fat lady on the butt with a wet canoe paddle.

Eb1
January 2, 2012, 05:01 PM
Having a buddy over with a 60x or 80x spotting scope would be a good idea. They could tell you that you hit the deer good or not.

CollinLeon
January 2, 2012, 07:22 PM
With slower bullets like the 45-70 or my black powder 50-90 loads you can hear the bullet impact at shorter ranges. I equate the sound of a 600 grain 50-90 bullet hitting a caribou at 200 yards to a sound similar to smacking a fat lady on the butt with a wet canoe paddle.

Well, since you mention it, I have to ask how many fat ladies have you hit on the butt with a wet canoe paddle? Is that one of those Alaskan past times for those long winter nights? :)

Oh well... Consenting adults and all that, I guess... [dirty-old-man-grin]

BGD
January 2, 2012, 09:11 PM
Arkansas Paul - Did you look through the burris eliminator? I am wondering how good the glass is?

I will do some shooting this year and maybe try it next hunting season otherwise I will find a place to sit and harvest some venison:)

6x6pinz
January 2, 2012, 10:21 PM
like several have already said. 450yds is not hunting, it is just shooting.

My advice would be to learn how to hunt if that is what you want to do or learn how to long distance shoot if that is what you want to do. these are two different concepts that people keep trying to call one. It is sort of like saying skeet=trap=sporting clays. Same guns different activity.

Learn the difference and practice what you like.

Arkansas Paul
January 3, 2012, 12:52 AM
BGD, I did look through the scope and range some distant objects, but have not shot with one. The glass is just as crystal clear as the most expensive scopes I've looked through. The best of those being a Swarovski, Leupold VX3, and Nikon Monarch. It was right up there with them, IMO.

War Eagle
January 4, 2012, 09:53 AM
I shot a deer at 458 yards with this rifle (http://gunzoo.com/vault/Mac/75) last year. Dropped him where he stood. I knew my bullet speed, had a range finder, used a ballistic app on my phone, dialed-in my come up, pulled the trigger, and had deer for dinner.

With the modern advances in the firearms world, 400+ yards isn't some legendary distance anymore. Just put in the work at the range and you'll be surprised at what you and your rifle are capable of.


...

mtnlvr
January 4, 2012, 06:58 PM
Another shot out for the 270 WSM. I recently aquired one that I put a Leupold 4.5-14 x 50 LR BC. Up until Christmas Day I had shot about 60 rounds through it while working up a handload at the 100 yd range. Christmas Day I got out in a 8-9 mph quartering away cross wind with my Dad and set up a 300 yd and 450 yd target. I checked my card, dialed in 14 clicks of elevation to get out to 300 yds and fired 3. All on target. Then used the Boone and Crocket holdover at 450 yds, and fired 2 rounds. I would've been happy to hit the cardboard behind my target, instead I broke the bullseye!

The 270 WSM with good glass is a pretty awesome rifle. I'd definitely get a quality scope with finger adjustable windage and elevation. Resettable knobs are probably nice to have. There are mixed reviews with the Boone and Crocket type holdover reticals, but it seems to work well enough. The 30mm tube on a "Long Range" can let a little more light through. And then get to know the ammo with your rifle and where it hits at the different ranges.

biggameballs
January 5, 2012, 02:51 PM
Corn Feeder + 450 yards + Shooting off deck = NOT HUNTING

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 03:06 PM
Can we PLEASE stop the silly symantics games?

The OP has described his setting and scenario and was asking for opinions on the best rifle and optics for his needs -- harvesting venison at a very specific range.

I don't think he or anyone else really gives one whisker off a rat's patootie whether you call it "hunting," "harvesting," "meat-plinking," "Bambi-Sniping," or Susan.

Why we get off on these irrelevant off-topic snits just escapes me.

pwillie
January 5, 2012, 03:13 PM
450 yds is a long shot for the average hunter,but with proper equipment,its not that hard. I loaned my son my model 70 Laredo 300,with a Swarovski 6X24X50 TDS. He was on a 530 yd field,and killed his deer with one shot at 450 yds.....he had never shot that rifle before...

gamestalker
January 5, 2012, 03:45 PM
I would drop a decent piece of Leupold glass on the .270 WSM, Barns 130 gr. BT, and a good slow burning powder to launch it, dead white tail.

Shooting from your pourch isn't lazy, it's fortunate and I envey you. I glass from a tripod and often get flack form other hunters who consider it to be cheating, because we use radios once we've picked something up on the glass a mile or so away.
Good luck!

pwillie
January 5, 2012, 04:37 PM
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/snakeoil1227/winchester300laredo-1.jpg

CollinLeon
January 6, 2012, 02:57 AM
Back in my youth, deer hunting was walking through the woods, looking for signs, and then either tracking them or setting up a tree stand in the hope that the deer might come back that way on subsequent days... I'm not sure that we even *had* the deer corn feeders back then then... At least I don't remember them... Baiting deer by planing rye grass was considered very unsportsmanlike and in some places, it was even illegal... I sat in deer stands many days in the winter freezing my butt off and not seeing a single deer... Sometimes while stalking through the woods, a deer would bolt up in front of you and then you got to see if you could hit one on the run... Hell, I see more deer these days just sitting in my backyard watching them walk along my back fence line or along the levee in a single day that I did in multiple deer seasons back then... I've seen deer late at night walking down the middle of the street in the subdivision, pausing to go take a bite from the plants in one yard, going back to the middle of the street, walking a bit further, and then going to a house on the other side of the street to much on some of their ornamental plants... Kind of like a buffet line for deer... Of course these homeowners complain about the deer eating their ornamental plants... I don't plant those types of plants, so the deer leave me alone... I just have to laugh when one of these uptight HOA Nazis get all bent out of shape because the deer are eating the tasty plants that they leave out for them... :)

I don't see anything wrong with what the OP suggested doing... Is it hunting like I used to do in my youth? Nawh, but that doesn't make it wrong... I would probably call it just "harvesting" the deer... Nothing wrong with it at all...

Davek1977
January 6, 2012, 04:20 AM
I have no ethical issues with this if the shooter can consistently make the shot. I have read nothing that indicated he was going to attempt this as some sort of crap shoot, with no prep. If he practices and acquires the skills to do so, either cartridge can cleanly take whitetails at the ranges mentioned. What may be unethical for me to attempt may be completely ethical when attempted by someone with greater skill.

Whitetail deer at 450 yards? The deer can't see, smell or hear you. That's not hunting, that's shooting. You are welcome to your personal opn ions and judgements. No one is asking that you shoot at deer at ranges beyond what you consider "hunting" or "sporting". One could argue that in nature, the best predators are those that are not seen, smelled, or heard until it was too late for the prey. What is man, but the ultimate predator. Personal ethics are just that...personal. If the shooter is up to the job, its NOT your place to determine whether his actions are considered "hunting". Some people stab pigs with knives and spears, and consider anything else unsporting. Some people hunt over feeders. Just because its not the way YOU choose to do things doesn't mean that its wrong or unsportsmanlike. I don't like to be judged on someone else's moral scale, especially if whatever I'm doing it legal and within reason.

Lloyd Smale
January 6, 2012, 05:29 AM
in a post like this you will allways get the neysayers who say its not ethical. Most of them are guys who just wont put the time in to practice to become good shots to begin with. I shoot probably a dozen deer a year at those ranges and it with a good gun and a good trigger man behind it its very doable. In my opinion though when the range gets out past 350 its time for a mag rifle. Not so much for the trajectory as even your 308 will hit deer out there if you know your gun and know your loads trajectory but the mags will just put down deer better at extended ranges. I like something like a 257 wby, 264mag, 7mag or a 300 mag for doing it. If its your land or you can get permission before season put out some targets at various ranges and see EXACTLY where your gun and load it hitting.

CollinLeon
January 6, 2012, 05:31 AM
in a post like this you will allways get the neysayers who say its not ethical. Most of them are guys who just wont put the time in to practice to become good shots to begin with. I shoot probably a dozen deer a year at those ranges and it with a good gun and a good trigger man behind it its very doable. In my opinion though when the range gets out past 350 its time for a mag rifle. Not so much for the trajectory as even your 308 will hit deer out there if you know your gun and know your loads trajectory but the mags will just put down deer better at extended ranges. I like something like a 257 wby, 264mag, 7mag or a 300 mag for doing it. If its your land or you can get permission before season put out some targets at various ranges and see EXACTLY where your gun and load it hitting.
Awh, come on... Make it a bit more interesting... Use a .45-70...

pwillie
January 6, 2012, 08:19 AM
As for the "Ethics" stuff,when you pull back a bow at full draw and the deer jumps the "string"...and you stick it in a ham,and it runs off to fester and die in a snake ridden swamp....??????I have seen this many times,after deer is "stuck" and they walk out on a field and an arrow is protruding out a side of a non vital hit...my opinion is,if you have qualms about humane hunting you don't need to hunt!A 40 yd shot with a pistol is no different than a 400 yd hit with a well tuned rifle...The thread is about long range shooting,not long range humanity....

UNCC Grad
January 6, 2012, 08:58 AM
Nothing wrong with taking that shot, IF and a big IF, you are up to the task. Almost any caliber from 25-06 on up can make that shot, including the 270 WSM. The biggest thing with long range shooting is learning to dope the wind. I'd suggest some flagging tape to be able to judge what the wind is doing at the target.

Other than that, range time and lots of it is all that is required. 4.5-14 magnification should be enough at that range. For strictly deer at that range, the 257 Wby would be a great choice if you decide to buy another rifle for the task. It's as close to a laser beam that your going to get in a "deer" caliber. 264 Win Mag is another good one....it shoots the high ballistic coefficient bullets that are better at wind doping than the 25s or 270 pills.

mdauben
January 6, 2012, 11:46 AM
Whitetail deer at 450 yards? The deer can't see, smell or hear you. That's not hunting, that's shooting.

I have a friend who's 6' 4" and weighs over 350lbs. This last season he took a nice Antelope with his recurve bow at about 35yds. THAT's hunting. (The boy does have stealth, yes he does!)
I would tend to believe that your friend's deer didn't "see, smell or hear" him, either, so why is using incredible stealth to avoid the deer's notice more admirable than using incredible marksmanship to do so? :confused:

benzy2
January 6, 2012, 02:21 PM
The 30mm tube on a "Long Range" can let a little more light through. No they don't. Typically a larger tube gives more adjustment in the turrets which is why they are used on long range setups but they do not let in more light.

sugarmaker
January 6, 2012, 02:41 PM
450 is not unrealistic IF you have a good rest or can do prone with a military sling, the gun / ammo combo is well tuned, you can judge range to within 20 yards or so, and can read / correct for wind. Any reasonably slippery bullets are plenty lethal at that range. I'd be careful of the A-bolt, mine isn't worth a plug nickel for 1st shot accuracy and i don't think it would hold vital zone at that range.

pwillie
January 6, 2012, 04:26 PM
My model 70-257 Weatherby topped with a 4X16X50 Swarovski with a 117 BST Weatherby ammo by Norma,is much of a match for that type of hunting.30MM tube is the way to go....Neck shot and they don't walk...

CollinLeon
January 6, 2012, 05:30 PM
No they don't. Typically a larger tube gives more adjustment in the turrets which is why they are used on long range setups but they do not let in more light.
That is not what I would expect... I've definitely noticed binoculars with 50mm objective lenses seeming brighter at night as compared to smaller diameter ones, given the same magnification power...

mdauben
January 6, 2012, 06:10 PM
That is not what I would expect... I've definitely noticed binoculars with 50mm objective lenses seeming brighter at night as compared to smaller diameter ones, given the same magnification power...

Larger objectives (say 40mm versus 50mm) will definetly gather more light, resulting in brigher images. The size of the tube in between the objective and the eyepiece (1-inch versus 30mm) has no impact on light or brightness, however.

CollinLeon
January 6, 2012, 08:10 PM
Larger objectives (say 40mm versus 50mm) will definetly gather more light, resulting in brigher images. The size of the tube in between the objective and the eyepiece (1-inch versus 30mm) has no impact on light or brightness, however.
OK... I see what you are talking about... Nice to know that my preconceived notions weren't wrong... :)

It all boils down to size of input and size of output...

With binoculars, there's supposedly an issue with pupil size after you get 70...

dampoo
January 6, 2012, 08:26 PM
450 yards is nothing for some people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxuV0VuK8Vc

TwoEyedJack
January 6, 2012, 09:03 PM
I would say you are good to go with your current set up. I have killed deer at over 400 yards with a .270 Winchester bolt gun off a Harris Bipod using a 4X scope. One was paced at 425 yards and the 130 gr. ballistic tip went though both shoulders and exited. The deer moved about 24". Down. Of course I had used that rifle for a year shooting rock chucks for practice and was very confident.

LeonCarr
February 19, 2012, 06:05 PM
Speaking of flags, a good way to start is simply hang a 3-4 foot long piece of orange surveyor's tape at equal distances from trees limbs, stakes, etc. between your porch and the feeder. I would even hang one off the feeder if it is a tripod type. When all of the tapes drop straight down from lack of wind, drop the hammer :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Kachok
February 19, 2012, 10:45 PM
I don't think you would have any issue using a 270 WSM at 450yds. I would get a quality Nikon BDC scope and some Ballistic tips. You will be shooting super flat and maintain about 1600 ft/lbs at 450, that is more then enough energy and speed to put any deer down. Make sure of your zero and have some fun :) There are bullets with higher BC then the BTs but to be honest with you I have never seen better better terminal performance on deer sized game then what Nosler brings to the table. I use them in every single caliber I load for and have never been less then thrilled with their accuracy or terminal performance.

steven58
February 20, 2012, 12:20 AM
If you are going to be changing the settings on your scope frequently, then my recommendation would be to get a scope with target turrets. Unlike capped turrets that are usually designed to be "set and forget", these are designed to be "cranked on" every time you are using the rifle.

I decided on a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP Riflescope for my .308. I have shot it out to 600 yd. and would have no problem shooting a deer at that range if the proper shot presented itself.

I bought mine through Liberty Optics. I think They have a member discount for THR.
http://www.libertyoptics.com/index1.html

D*N*R*
February 20, 2012, 09:15 AM
1 it's no worse than hunting inside a fence, just missing the hunting experience.

2 off season shooting from that place (same shot) will tell you if it's to far. You will be less accurate when a deer is standing there.

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