Move to where you're free or "stay and fight?"


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parsimonious_instead
January 1, 2012, 08:24 PM
Thread about an unfortunate resident of NYC and the ridiculous hassles he goes through even for long arms got me thinking:
Here is a philosophical question:

There are basically two ways to deal with restrictive firearm laws. Move and enjoy greater freedom, or "stay and fight." - enjoy your guns, even with all of those lousy restrictions, and agitate for change.
Unfortunately, the sort of people who move to better their lives also tend to have the drive and initiative that would also make them good fighters for our cause.
Is it possible that people "give up too easily" and simply move and become part of the "RKBA exodus?"

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floorit76
January 1, 2012, 08:36 PM
I'd like to see some data on that theory.

buckeye8
January 1, 2012, 08:43 PM
Exodus? I really don't think very many people move from one state to another with the RKBA as the primary motivating factor.

Life takes you where it does. Wherever that happens to be, fight the good fight.

parsimonious_instead
January 1, 2012, 08:48 PM
The use of the word "exodus" was probably an overstatement, but it does seem like firearm freedom is a primary or close secondary consideration for a lot of people as they pick a destination to move to.
If some of these people instead had stuck around and agitated for change in their rights-restricted states, maybe things would improve.

Twmaster
January 1, 2012, 08:50 PM
I can only speak for myself here....

I moved from the People's Republik of Maryland two years ago. The choice of place for me to land was in a large part driven by the freedom to exercise my 2A rights.

If I am in a minority I'm OK with that.

Evil Monkey
January 1, 2012, 08:51 PM
There nothing wrong with leaving a crappy state for whatever reason to live in a better one. This is why we have states in the first place, because different people want to handle their affairs differently.


It is a damn shame though, how big city politics can ruin a whole state. Illinois, New York, and the beautiful state of California. :(

ApacheCoTodd
January 1, 2012, 08:52 PM
Sometimes - as in my case - it's not so much "giving up" as making a choice to not live amongst so many folk which are so rabidly averse and passionately opposed to the line of thinking that I have on soooo many subjects.

I've found, having lived in California, Massachusetts and Minnesota that I'm simply outside the louder and more powerful of the mainstream thought and action Nazis and the silent "hope no one notices me" types aren't much better in that their silence is viewed as support for the loudest and media backed groups.

Fact is - firearms ownership and use is just one of the more obvious indicators regarding a populaces attitudes towards liberty and personal accountability and along with other "single issue voter" topics assists me in arriving at big picture grade assessments of a population bloc.

floorit76
January 1, 2012, 08:59 PM
I realize I am a throwback, and that society has changed around me. But as I have posted in 2 other threads, some of us have too great of "roots" in one area to just up and leave. Most people today move as soon as they graduate college, then continue to move for a variety of reasons, generally including better pay, and opportunity. Both sides of my family have been on the same dirt for over 100 years. I won't leave for a better paying job, I won;t leave because it snows here, and I won't leave because my states govornment has it's head up it's a$$. Last year we helped elect a new Senator, and I have been to his office to discuss how important the 2A is. He agrees. We have marched, and lobbied going on 5 years I believe. My wife and I are only 35, we have plenty of time to fight. We will win, 49 other states can't be wrong. IL is going to have concealed carry.

Deanimator
January 1, 2012, 09:00 PM
I moved out of Illinois in 1986. It was the smartest move I've ever made.

NOTHING is ever going to get better for gun owners there that doesn't come out of a Federal court decision.

The anti-gun attitudes in Illinois and especially Chicago are merely a symptom of the generalized moral and intellectual rot there. If you don't like the place or the people, you just need to get out. I did.

Deanimator
January 1, 2012, 09:01 PM
IL is going to have concealed carry.
ONLY if the U.S. Supreme Court says they HAVE to.

oneounceload
January 1, 2012, 09:03 PM
There is more to life than shooting and guns - jobs and paychecks for one. If you have a choice, and all things being equal, one state has less restrictions than another, that is one thing - but to up and move strictly because one state has a few less restrictions on guns is a bit naive, IMO

floorit76
January 1, 2012, 09:05 PM
There are several scenerios that I can see happening. That is one. You have to remember that 90% of the land mass is populated by people that want it. It is only the voters of Chicago (living and dead) that are holding us back.

armoredman
January 1, 2012, 09:07 PM
I personally know two people who changed COUNTRIES for our 2A rights, one runs czcustom.com and is one of the best pistol shooters in the world, Angus Hobdell. Yes, it does happen.
I have not done so - born and raised in Free AZ, and like our IL resident, here I will likely stay.

Twmaster
January 1, 2012, 09:08 PM
There is more to life than shooting and guns - jobs and paychecks for one. If you have a choice, and all things being equal, one state has less restrictions than another, that is one thing - but to up and move strictly because one state has a few less restrictions on guns is a bit naive, IMO
That's easy to say when you live in a state with some good freedoms...

Not a dig. Just an observation having lived in an oppressive state previously.

Mr.Blue
January 1, 2012, 09:11 PM
Are you kidding? The reason most people, myself included, stay around NYC is the money. In my business NYC is where the $$$ is. There are many industries where the same is true.

I spent my first 35 years there, but was lucky to get a job elsewhere. I love guns, but I love feeding my family more.

As for initiative, you are way off. The best and brightest in the USA and world flock to NYC for it's opportunities.

oneounceload
January 1, 2012, 09:14 PM
That's easy to say when you live in a state with some good freedoms...

Not a dig. Just an observation having lived in an oppressive state previously.

Born and raised in NYC myself, but I have also lived in many states over the years because of work. You go where the jobs and $$$ are - then you will have the means to do other things as you go through life

Evil Monkey
January 1, 2012, 09:27 PM
In my business NYC is where the $$$ is. There are many industries where the same is true.


I hear the cost of living in these places are also quite high so where exactly is the advantage?

Mississipi is the poorest state in the nation. But they also have the lowest cost of living.

Mr.Blue
January 1, 2012, 09:54 PM
I hear the cost of living in these places are also quite high so where exactly is the advantage?

Mississipi is the poorest state in the nation. But they also have the lowest cost of living.

If you make good money in NYC, you have more at your fingertips than anywhere else in the world. To many people, this is more important than firearm freedoms.

Evil Monkey
January 1, 2012, 11:06 PM
If you make good money in NYC, you have more at your fingertips than anywhere else in the world. To many people, this is more important than firearm freedoms.

You can say this about any state and city.

Hell, Mississipi is the second biggest gambling state in the union after las vegas, nevada. You can say if you're making money in the gambling industry in Mississipi, you're well off too.

If you can make enough money somewhere to live comfortably, and the politics of that state is agreeable, then why not move there?

I definitely think in America, you can have your cake AND eat it too.

ShawnC
January 1, 2012, 11:10 PM
I have never done it, although nothing could get my butt to move to DC, but moving out is a way to fight. It's a statement, however small. If enough people had a good enough excuse to move and moved to more gun friendly states, someone might take notice.
Or I could be dreaming...

StrutStopper
January 1, 2012, 11:39 PM
I moved from NYC in 1988 and never looked back.

Tinpig
January 1, 2012, 11:45 PM
I agree with floorit76...I'm a stay-and-fight-it.

I've got deep roots in Massachusetts and I like it here. I have all my family and my wife's family, my four grown kids and their families, my construction business with 40 years of repeat customers, and the rural house and land I live on which were once my great-grandfather's.
I may not like some of the attitude towards guns, but that has never kept me and many others from enjoying all the shooting we want, while doing our best to return the state to what it once was by our own personal example, and by voting, political activism, and support for Mass GOAL and the NRA. And by refusing to be driven out.

Tinpig

paradox998
January 1, 2012, 11:55 PM
I am counting the days until I can leave NY. Restriction on 2nd Amendment freedoms are a large part of the my decision to move. I plan to take a lifetime of earnings (and assets) and move to a state that does not infringe on my rights. Support for the Constitution does matter in my choice of where to live. I have already purchased property in another state will be happy to see my taxes support a state that is free.

kimura
January 2, 2012, 12:15 AM
You can say this about any state and city.

Hell, Mississipi is the second biggest gambling state in the union after las vegas, nevada. You can say if you're making money in the gambling industry in Mississipi, you're well off too.

If you can make enough money somewhere to live comfortably, and the politics of that state is agreeable, then why not move there?

I definitely think in America, you can have your cake AND eat it too.
Opportunity is not always available in every part of the country. Some jobs are indigenous to certain places. For instance, if you're in the entertainment industry, Los Angeles and New York is pretty much where you find employment and careers. The only exception being Nashville for country music. If you want to work for the UFC, you're probably going to live in Vegas. If you want to work for the WWE, most likely Connecticut. Certain things are indigenous to certain places. Can you find work elsewhere? Probably, but probably not a career job in your chosen field. Also, let's not forget that becoming successful takes time. It's not overnight. Give up a successful career and start over for better gun laws? No, I doubt most would. At this point, gun and gun laws become of secondary importance. Health care, jobs, career success and all that entails, most important of which is giving you and your family a better life, all become more important.

Mr.Blue
January 2, 2012, 12:27 AM
Quote:
If you make good money in NYC, you have more at your fingertips than anywhere else in the world. To many people, this is more important than firearm freedoms.
You can say this about any state and city.

Hell, Mississipi is the second biggest gambling state in the union after las vegas, nevada. You can say if you're making money in the gambling industry in Mississipi, you're well off too.

If you can make enough money somewhere to live comfortably, and the politics of that state is agreeable, then why not move there?

I definitely think in America, you can have your cake AND eat it too.


You're right. There is as much to do in MS as NYC. The last time I was in MS, I must have missed the world class restaurants, museums, schools, Broadway shows, opera, sporting events and etc..

Your definition of money and mine are most likely different. You clearly don't know much about NYC.

I had to check my calendar and make sure it wasn't April fools day. NYC = MS. Haha.

Evil Monkey
January 2, 2012, 12:45 AM
You're right. There is as much to do in MS as NYC. The last time I was in MS, I must have missed the world class restaurants, museums, schools, Broadway shows, opera, sporting events and etc..

Your definition of money and mine are most likely different. You clearly don't know much about NYC.

I had to check my calendar and make sure it wasn't April fools day. NYC = MS. Haha

I didn't say the two states were the same. I'm just saying that if a state caters to your profession, and other things like politics are in line with what you believe in, then there is no loss in moving from where you currently are.

Sam1911
January 2, 2012, 12:52 AM
The answer, from a gun rights point of view, is a relative of the "Tragedy of the Commons" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons)

YOU should stay and fight. It is better for the country as a whole.

But I am going to go someplace where I can enjoy my freedoms now while you stay and fight the good fight.

I'm sure a political game theory expert would be able to give us an equation that explains where the critical balance is between having a loyal minority of a certain size remaining in urban population centers which tend to drive politics for everyone, and "abandoning" those centers to their own whim, which will then be free(er) to dictate terms to the more sparsely populated "free zones" outside the cities. Too complicated for me to decipher.

I can't cast stones. I've lived in MD and in MA. I live in PA. Those who've stayed to fight (...though let's be honest, no one stays just to keep up the gun rights battle) have my thanks ... and pity.

Bubbles
January 2, 2012, 01:15 AM
I moved out of MD into VA and then WV.

Even though I left, I have not stopped fighting for the rights of others in states besides mine. Heller I, McDonald, Heller II, and eventually Heller III are proof of that.

2zulu1
January 2, 2012, 01:16 AM
I'll remember to tell my millionaire rancher friends that NYC is where the money is at. lol

Sav .250
January 2, 2012, 06:52 AM
That being said, there are laws for just about everything. Do you pick up and move just because of issues/laws you don`t agree with ? J s/n.

bikerdoc
January 2, 2012, 07:00 AM
Retired from a PD in Mass in 88. Left not because of 2A but because it was too, crowded, and expensive.

parsimonious_instead
January 2, 2012, 08:25 AM
You're right. There is as much to do in MS as NYC. The last time I was in MS, I must have missed the world class restaurants, museums, schools, Broadway shows, opera, sporting events and etc..

Your definition of money and mine are most likely different. You clearly don't know much about NYC.

I had to check my calendar and make sure it wasn't April fools day. NYC = MS. Haha.

Hat tip to you, Mr. Blue. All my life, I've lived a short train ride from NYC, and didn't even like the place at first. Then as I got a bit older (and smart, aggressive policing helped make the city safer), I started going in more often, both for social and business reasons.

I hear a lot of slamming of NYC and even the state as a whole on gun forums and blogs. Most of that view seems to be filtered through the lens of the denial of RKBA, and perhaps tinted darkly by a brief visit or two.

In no way do I support the gun laws of my state, and those of the City, but I don't think it's the bloody awful place people make it out to be.
NYS has tremendous natural assets and great people.
NYC is cleaner and safer than it's reputed to be. Friendlier, too - and you can even find patches of surprising quiet if you know where to look.

There's tremendous diversity in people, scenery, architecture and culture in the city. The public transportation gets you anywhere, fairly quickly and the place is surprisingly walkable. There's a palpable sense of energy when you step off the train in Grand Central, and an "anything can happen" vibe as you walk the streets.

Do I wish I didn't need a permit just to buy a handgun? Yup. Do I wish that I could carry in NYC without risking arrest and serious jail time? Yup. Do I wish that the elected officials of my State and NYC would stop treating gun owners as pariahs? Yup.

But I also wish that people would ease up on the place a bit, every bit as much as the I wish the "sophisticated urbanites" that I know would stop turning up their nose at places like Kentucky, Nevada, Georgia, Arizona...etc...

lizziedog1
January 2, 2012, 09:04 AM
I was born in and lived most of my life in California. I was convinced I was going to be buried there.

A little over five years ago a job came up in Nevada.

I did not move because of gun laws. It was purely work-related. But I knew that the culture in the Silver State was more gun-friendly.

I have but one regret. I didn't move sooner.

After I established official residency here, I went to a gun shop. I made my first Nevada purchase of a firearm. When I was handed the gun and the employee wished me luck it felt strange. I didn't have to wait ten days. Heck, I barely had to wait ten minutes.

At that moment I felt more free then I had in a long time.

I do make my fair shares of anti-California posts. I hope you guys there don't take to personally. Actually I do wish you guys well and hope you put up a good pro-2A fight.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
January 2, 2012, 09:32 AM
Not exactly 2A but also excessive taxes and regulations---MOVE!!!!

Let the Commies collapse on themselves when there is no longer other peoples money to spend and to control like children.

How will they pay for the excessive govt workers--pensions--those living off the govt teet and just spending in general?

Move--let it collaspe--come back after the reset to normal if you so choose.

armoredman
January 2, 2012, 10:43 AM
If you make good money in NYC, you have more at your fingertips than anywhere else in the world. To many people, this is more important than firearm freedoms.
If that is all you love, money over freedom, then by all means, I wish you luck in what you want.
I wouldn't visit NYC on a bet, and I've been in big cities like Hong Kong and Singapore over the years. I'm glad you love your Big Apple, but the way you're posting about it is pretty insulting to the rest of us who live elsewhere. I'll stay here in Free AZ, you stay in Bloomers glittering cage.

floorit76
January 2, 2012, 10:56 AM
I've never been to New York, can't think of why I'd want to. Trips to St Louis, and Chicago are all I can handle. Here in IL I may not be able to legally carry a handgun, but other than that it's far from restrictive. I can step out my back door right now and shoot for the rest of the day, noone would even look up. We shoot Tannerite in the back yard, noone notices. Heck a few weeks ago I took a shot at a coyote at 6 in the morning and the only reason anybody cared is because the neighbor called to see if I got him. I do have to keep my FOID (Firearm owner ID) card current, and show it when purchasing ammo/firearms. But other than that and a 3 day waiting period it's pretty easy going. The local PD's don't make much fuss about anything. Weapons stored in vehicles with reasonable care are largely ignored. As far as oppresive gun states go, we have it pretty good.

valnar
January 2, 2012, 11:01 AM
When I was a teen, my parents moved to Cleveland. I wasn't a gun owner, nor interested in guns for another 10 years. My parents are not gun people.

I hated Cleveland, the snow and Ohio in general. Now that I am older and wiser, I am finding out it has a great cross-selection of opportunity. Cleveland has decent employment, cost of living is low, gun rights are good in Ohio and some schools are the best in the nation. But yah, it's cold. It can be urban enough for Sports and entertainment, yet rural enough for shooting sports (Camp Perry). The only thing missing is mountains and hills for shooting against.

I make no illusions that my freedoms come from the cities of Cleveland, Columbus, Akron and Cincinnati though. I know full well I have to thank all the rural towns, farmers and other gun aficionados for my rights. I feel bad that my friends in Illinois, California and New York do not have enough numbers to tip the scales in their favor over their largest respective cities.

2ifbyC
January 2, 2012, 11:48 AM
I believe everyone should fight for whatever constitutional freedoms that they are lawfully denied; itís your right and civic duty to do so. State/city restrictions on RKBA is but one of many persistent fights occurring due primary to the different ideologies of mankind. But to move because oneís freedom/right is restricted or denied, well, that answer is much more complex; as others have stated, you may not have a choice or it may not be your biggest priority.

Now that I am retired, I had much more latitude in deciding where I wanted to more. Having lived in the East the majority of my life, I wanted to live out West. I loved visiting California and hoped to move there one day. Did RKBA enter the equation? You bet; I chose Arizona!:)

Guy B. Meredith
January 2, 2012, 01:21 PM
Making a good living is usually the first consideration.

I do not like California's mind boggling assault on firearms ownership and I don't like big cities or freeways. However I worked in Los Angeles and the SF Bay area for over 30 years with a daily commute of up to 4 hours. That's where the jobs were and where I could raise my family.

As one previous poster noted these areas are expensive as the people living there can (sort of) afford it. When I was laid off this year and headed for a retirement income we could no longer afford areas of California agreeable to my wife so we moved to Oregon.

There are some areas of California I would have loved to be able to move to and continue the good fight if we could have afforded it, but for right now I am content to find the room politically to stretch out and enjoy not carrying the burdens of California.

LemmyCaution
January 2, 2012, 01:30 PM
I moved back to VT after 15 years in Chicago and NYC. When I moved back, my cost of living was halved, but my income was quartered.

Firearms were a part of my decision, but not in the way one might expect.

After 9/11, the mood of NYC changed radically, and not for the better. The police became even more unaccountable than they had already been, and the public was willing to give a free pass to the authorities over anything, so long as one played the 9/11 card. And it got played every day. And it still does.

The tipping point came one day in Pennsylvania Station. I was waiting for a train to a job in DC. The central waiting area was crowded with hundreds, if not thousands of people. And walking among them, in body armor and carrying an M4, was an NYPD cop. I thought to myself "I feel decidedly less safe here with this gentleman than I would if he were not here."

And I started seeing more of these cops everywhere I went- the subway, the street corner, the post office- crowded places, where the likelihood of a clean rifle shot was near zero.

And it dawned on me- a clean shot didn't matter, because if the SHTF, a collateral damage assessment had been made that said any one citizen didn't matter, so long as the police were seen to be doing something about a terrorism threat that had been colossally exaggerated to justify the expansion of executive power.

The one place I never saw these cops, or really any cops at all, was in the crap neighborhood where I lived, where violence was a demonstrable reality.

So I decided to get out. And once I was out, I started thinking about active self defense and taking responsibility for myself, and I retrieved my firearms from my folks.

And living in a very remote location, where police response times are measured in hours, there's no electricity, and no running water, I've been forced to address my own care and feeding in ways I'd never imagined in NYC. And I'm happier and feel more alive than I ever have.

TT
January 2, 2012, 01:58 PM
If you want to stay and fight, good on you and have at it- but donít ask others to give up their rights to aid you in what they perceive as a futile battle.

lizziedog1
January 2, 2012, 02:43 PM
The one thing that really upsets me is when folks from California move here and then try to replicate California laws.

If you like California laws why did you move?

I was out in the desert shooting a 22 into a hill side. I was trying to hit dirt clods. Some old dude walks up to me and asks if I am concerned about putting lead into the environment.

I asked him if he knew where lead came from in the first place.

He mumbled something and walked away.

Guess where he had recently moved from.

I'll give you a hint...California.

Vonderek
January 2, 2012, 02:55 PM
The original intent of the founders of the "United States" was to foster competition amongst the states which would encourage excellence. If a state underperformed folks could "vote with their feet" and migrate to a state more to their liking. The same holds true today. I wouldn't waste my time trying to force change in a place that was already a basketcase. Pack your things and move to a free state. As far as economic opportunity goes, I think just about everyone is in the same boat now. If jobs in your field don't exist where you want to live then you'll have to reinvent yourself. That's part of the American story as well.

throdgrain
January 2, 2012, 04:48 PM
In England there's a thing in London called "white flight". The government don't accept it occurs of course ;)

But in the 50's and 60's they moved in thousands of foreign people into the city, and the English people moved out, they "voted with thier feet".

Now in some areas there's hardly any native English people left.

I suggest to you that if you don't change the place you're in, and go to another place, then the original problem may well follow you there. Gun legislation is creeping in everywhere, even in your country, and I hope you fight and win against it.

87jeep
January 2, 2012, 05:49 PM
Retire, Arizona, enough said!:D

ZeSpectre
January 2, 2012, 05:52 PM
I really don't think very many people move from one state to another with the RKBA as the primary motivating factor.
Well, speaking only for myself, I know that there are a few states that were out of the question when I was moving.

Deanimator
January 2, 2012, 06:38 PM
Well, speaking only for myself, I know that there are a few states that were out of the question when I was moving.
I was unemployed for two years. I didn't bother to even apply for any job in:

California
Illinois
New York
New Jersey
Massachusetts
Maryland

I'm looking for a better job now. Those same states are still out of the question. I won't even consider them. No job is worth what I'd be giving up to live in any of those states.

ball3006
January 2, 2012, 06:58 PM
I spend the summers in the UP of MI and the winters in east Texas. Both areas are 2A friendly. I was at my camp in east Texas for new year's eve and it sounded like the western front. Cool....I did my part.....chris3

DataMonkey
January 2, 2012, 07:55 PM
How about the corollary to this?

I have personally not entertained interviews with firms in NYC and CT because I would have to liquidate certain firearms. Those areas cater to the industry I'm in - finance. I'll stay here in TX and help fight for open carry.

BeerSleeper
January 2, 2012, 09:01 PM
I won't leave for a better paying job, I won;t leave because it snows here, and I won't leave because my states govornment has it's head up it's a$$. Last year we helped elect a new Senator, and I have been to his office to discuss how important the 2A is. He agrees. We have marched, and lobbied going on 5 years I believe. My wife and I are only 35, we have plenty of time to fight. We will win, 49 other states can't be wrong. IL is going to have concealed carry.

I find your optimism, your drive to fight, and your determination impressive. My hat is off to you, sir, and I wish you the best of luck.

floorit76
January 2, 2012, 09:10 PM
Kind words, thanks. The tide is changing here, slowly. It's really fun to see the women march out front at the IGOLD rally, all carrying tongue depressors. You see the IL state police website urges women to carry one, in order to gag herself so she can vommit on a rapist. The polititians turn green when the girls ask them if they would rather see their wife/mother/daugter protect herself with with a gun, or with vomit.

2zulu1
January 2, 2012, 09:10 PM
I wonder how many of those who live in oppressive jurisdictions/states are members of their local NRA fund raising committees? ??

Mr.Blue
January 2, 2012, 09:22 PM
If that is all you love, money over freedom, then by all means, I wish you luck in what you want.
I wouldn't visit NYC on a bet, and I've been in big cities like Hong Kong and Singapore over the years. I'm glad you love your Big Apple, but the way you're posting about it is pretty insulting to the rest of us who live elsewhere. I'll stay here in Free AZ, you stay in Bloomers glittering cage.

1. I haven't lived in NYC for 11 years or NYC suburbs for 5 years.

2. How did my explanation of what NY is about insult anyone? People need thicker skin.

3. There is no question that NYC (Similar to California) draws the best and the brightest from all over the US. This results in an extremely educated, left leaning population. Many of the white people from the outer boroughs are pro gun.

4. Wow, a couple of rich ranchers in Az. You obviously don't understand the wealth in and around NYC.

5. I hate NY politics except for my old congressman, Peter King.

6. AZ has it's own problems. How about stopping the deluge of border jumpers that head north and committ crime. Personally, I'd love to go back to WI some day.

BeerSleeper
January 2, 2012, 09:33 PM
3. There is no question that NYC draws the best and the brightest from all over the US.[citation needed]

carbuncle
January 2, 2012, 11:21 PM
I moved to Washington State after growing up in Massachusetts, love the firearms laws out here. I'll never move to a state with hyper restrictive gun laws again, our incomes and the tax and economic benefit they produce in our local community will stay in free states.

GrumpyBunny
January 3, 2012, 12:15 AM
In 2005 I made the decision that relates to the topic.

After being involved for 10 years in the grassroots efforts to sway the anti-gun movement and put pressure on politicos from local,state and federal levels, my opinion is that the left has so many organizations pushing us to the left, that to even to get the government to stay middle of the road is an uphill struggle!

Howver, my decison to leave California was based on economics. I was absolutely shut out from getting employed in my profession. I did odd jobs
just to get by. I had friends who went under - financially bankrupt - losing their homes etc. The state I chose to move to had job opportunities and the one I chose had good (not the best) pro-gun laws.

Well, I am in my new home state, California still tests me out every other year by sending me a notice that I failed to pay my income tax. While certain things here are cheaper, other items required are way overpriced.

That be as it may, the financial aspect has put me way ahead of the game. Now, I am looking for my next best move.

2zulu1
January 3, 2012, 01:16 AM
1. I haven't lived in NYC for 11 years or NYC suburbs for 5 years.

2. How did my explanation of what NY is about insult anyone? People need thicker skin.

3. There is no question that NYC (Similar to California) draws the best and the brightest from all over the US. This results in an extremely educated, left leaning population. Many of the white people from the outer boroughs are pro gun.

4. Wow, a couple of rich ranchers in Az. You obviously don't understand the wealth in and around NYC.

5. I hate NY politics except for my old congressman, Peter King.

6. AZ has it's own problems. How about stopping the deluge of border jumpers that head north and committ crime. Personally, I'd love to go back to WI some day.
I guess your reply means you stayed but don't fight.

geim druth
January 3, 2012, 07:23 AM
Stay where you are and fight. If your are lucky enough to live in a state with sane gun laws, help the those who aren't as best you can.
Those who believe in gun control will not stop with victory in New Jersey or Illinois or New York or California. They'll keep fighting till Texas and Missisippi and Arizona have to abide by the Brady Campaign's ideas of safe gun ownership.

hacksaw
January 3, 2012, 09:54 AM
About 11 years ago I moved from NY to SC. I had lost my job shortly after 9/11 and couldn't find an IT job to save my soul. Found a good job in the Myrtle Beach area with a "stable" long established company. THen the 'Great Recession" occurred. I was out of work for 2 years, never once did I look for a job in NY, MA, or any other liberal bastion. I enjoy being able to carry conealed, buy a supressor etc...I am, however paying a price for my choices. The salaries in SC are nowhere near competitive for similar jobs in more Metropolitan areas. I had to take a contract gig in Iraq, fortunately it pays great. I am actually on my home right now, probably wont take another contract. I also wont take a job in NY, MA, MD etc...

lizziedog1
January 3, 2012, 10:04 AM
Retire, Arizona, enough said!

My son and his family live in Arizona.

They must be the most gun-friendly state. No paperwork or permits required for any kind of carry. It don't get much better than that.

1911 guy
January 3, 2012, 10:20 AM
I find myself aggravated at Mr. Blues logic.

Best and brightest? You do realize these are the idiots who drove the economy onto a wall, right?

And culture and entertainment? The ONLY advantage NYC has over other places is the proximity. In New York, everything is centered in and around Manhattan, whereas other places you might actually have to put in some effort to find the world class eateries, museums, playhouses, etc. Trust me, they do exist.

I have been to NYC several times. I was thoroughly unimpressed. Doesn't come close to living up to the hype. Everything in NYC, except for the financial industry (see paragraph one) can be found elsewhere. And usually without the snobbery attached to it.

I, like Valnar, live in Ohio. We've got good people, good industry, housing isn't stupid inflated and our gun rights are pretty good overall. And, like him, I hate the snow! Just shoveled my driveway. Do we have a coronary smiley?

ETA: I, too have deep roots here. Several generaltions now and most of my family is within driving distance. "stay and fight" is how we got CCW in the first place. And it's only getting better here.

Patriotme
January 3, 2012, 10:27 AM
Why support a lousy anti gun city or state with your tax dollars and discretionary income? You could spend years, decades or your entire life giving money to anti gunners and get nothing to show for it. Meanwhile you have your gun rights curtailed or stripped away.
If I found myself in this situation I would move if at all possible. I realize that some might call this quitting but I would hate to spend my entire life in DC waiting for this city to catch up with the majority of the US in regards to gun laws.

BullfrogKen
January 3, 2012, 11:08 AM
As mentioned earlier, a bedrock of this experiment we call the United States is the freedom for states to make their own rules and determine what will or will not be acceptable within their borders.

Over a decade ago I made a conscious decision to leave Maryland for three reasons, gun rights and better 2A freedoms being one of them.


I have found that states with restrictive gun rights also have other intrusive, meddlesome laws that curtain freedoms in areas of my life that I'd rather the state stay the heck out of.

During the decade ending in 2010, and continuing into this current one, I've seen the demographics of states change. Taxes and job opportunities are the major factors. Businesses are moving to states that are more business friendly and have a lower tax burden, taking those jobs with them when they leave. That has especially been true for NYC. Not just businesses, but wealthy individuals are leaving that state.


Maryland was just never going to change. Staying to fight is admirable, and those fights are the ones that get to the Supreme Court, making those small fights affect the laws of the nation as a whole.

But I wanted to get to a state that better reflected my attititudes and values - all of them, not just 2A values. I'm quite happy I did.

armoredman
January 3, 2012, 11:32 AM
1. I haven't lived in NYC for 11 years or NYC suburbs for 5 years.
So it's the best place in the world, yet you left years ago.
2. How did my explanation of what NY is about insult anyone? People need thicker skin.
Inherent arrogance with unprovable assertations.
3. There is no question that NYC (Similar to California) draws the best and the brightest from all over the US. This results in an extremely educated, left leaning population. Many of the white people from the outer boroughs are pro gun.
If the best and brightest are there, why did you leave a place you vehemently defend so long ago? Odd, this correlation you draw, that the best and brightest are leftists. Again an insult, perhaps unintended, perhaps not.
4. Wow, a couple of rich ranchers in Az. You obviously don't understand the wealth in and around NYC.
I didn't post that one, but there are many rich ranchers. Don't know any personally.
5. I hate NY politics except for my old congressman, Peter King.
Good, don't know Mr King.
6. AZ has it's own problems. How about stopping the deluge of border jumpers that head north and committ crime. Personally, I'd love to go back to WI some day.
Obviously you pay no attention to what's going on around you, or you might have heard of SB 1070 by now, and our Supreme Court fights to do exactly that - we won the last one on employer sanctions. It wasn't the Governor of Arizona that handed over a section of Arizona land to the drug smugglers, it was one of your best and brightest leftists that did that. It's your best and brightest leftists that are trying like hades to stop us from controlling the border so more best and brightest can sneak across.
But, to forestall any more arguments that will just draw a moderator's ire, I will put you down on the ignore list from now on. Please continue to have a nice day.

WinThePennant
January 3, 2012, 11:33 AM
I say move to a free state that respects your Bill of Rights.

The creatively stupid are multiplying at exponential rates in some of the unfree states. In other words, standing up to them is a losing battle.

Mr.Blue
January 3, 2012, 01:35 PM
1. I haven't lived in NYC for 11 years or NYC suburbs for 5 years.
So it's the best place in the world, yet you left years ago.
2. How did my explanation of what NY is about insult anyone? People need thicker skin.
Inherent arrogance with unprovable assertations.
3. There is no question that NYC (Similar to California) draws the best and the brightest from all over the US. This results in an extremely educated, left leaning population. Many of the white people from the outer boroughs are pro gun.
If the best and brightest are there, why did you leave a place you vehemently defend so long ago? Odd, this correlation you draw, that the best and brightest are leftists. Again an insult, perhaps unintended, perhaps not.
4. Wow, a couple of rich ranchers in Az. You obviously don't understand the wealth in and around NYC.
I didn't post that one, but there are many rich ranchers. Don't know any personally.
5. I hate NY politics except for my old congressman, Peter King.
Good, don't know Mr King.
6. AZ has it's own problems. How about stopping the deluge of border jumpers that head north and committ crime. Personally, I'd love to go back to WI some day.
Obviously you pay no attention to what's going on around you, or you might have heard of SB 1070 by now, and our Supreme Court fights to do exactly that - we won the last one on employer sanctions. It wasn't the Governor of Arizona that handed over a section of Arizona land to the drug smugglers, it was one of your best and brightest leftists that did that. It's your best and brightest leftists that are trying like hades to stop us from controlling the border so more best and brightest can sneak across.
But, to forestall any more arguments that will just draw a moderator's ire, I will put you down on the ignore list from now on. Please continue to have a nice day.

1. I left for a job at a hedge fund, which ultimately laid off 70% of it's work force and left me without job in Wisconsin. I then had to go back East to find a job in capital markets.

2. I do not say that NYC is the best place in the world. I only point out to the many Yahoos here who bash the place. Most who bash NYC in totality are just ignorant to what it offers. These people are the reason that the left-leaning limousine liberal eliteists call anything not NY or CA "flyover" country.

I am a conservative Republican and a long time member of the NRA. I just don't like reading ignorant attacks on a great city.

BeerSleeper
January 3, 2012, 02:14 PM
I'm sure NY has a lot to offer, but the value of what it has to offer is subject to each individual's own assessment.

The freedom found in any free state in the midwest, excepting Illinois, is of much greater value to me than nightlife, fine restaurants, and a broadway show.

I hope the NY'ers and the Californians continue to consider the midwest "flyover country". I'd rather they not move in and ruin the neighborhood.

nyrifleman
January 3, 2012, 02:44 PM
5. I hate NY politics except for my old congressman, Peter King.
Good, don't know Mr King.

You should, because Mr. King is a prominent anti-gun politician. Remember that bill about not carrying firearms within 1000 feet of a congressman? Introduced a little after Gabrielle Giffords' shooting? Well, guess who?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/peter-king-calls-for-gun-contr.html

nyrifleman
January 3, 2012, 02:49 PM
I just don't like reading ignorant attacks on a great city.

I think you're making an assumption that a lot of NYC-bashers are ignorant. I lived in NYC for 13 years. I think it sucks.

I'm not saying that there aren't people who like NYC, or who have reason to like the city, but you're implying that if people actually came to know the city, they wouldn't be bashing it. And that is wrong. NYC is not everyone's cup of tea.

WinThePennant
January 3, 2012, 02:59 PM
1. I left for a job at a hedge fund, which ultimately laid off 70% of it's work force and left me without job in Wisconsin. I then had to go back East to find a job in capital markets.

2. I do not say that NYC is the best place in the world. I only point out to the many Yahoos here who bash the place. Most who bash NYC in totality are just ignorant to what it offers. These people are the reason that the left-leaning limousine liberal eliteists call anything not NY or CA "flyover" country.

I am a conservative Republican and a long time member of the NRA. I just don't like reading ignorant attacks on a great city.
You're a bit out of line when it comes to calling people who dislike New Yorker's anti-freedom positions as being "Yahoos."

NYC is a great city -- A great city that would fall into itself but for the massive cash infusions from Wall Street. Cash infusions that simply are capitalized productivity stolen/grifted/fleeced from "flyover country."

towboat_er
January 3, 2012, 03:10 PM
I ain't moving to NYC, that's fer sure.

Sam1911
January 3, 2012, 03:17 PM
Enough already. This has become simply a huge fight over how much NYC sucks and why. Arguing that is not why we're here.

Let's say the "stay" and "go" sides have both had their say ... and we've all learned a bit about New York City ... so let's call this one a draw.

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