Whats a better present PTR 91 GI or AK 47 by K-var?


PDA






Roman11
January 1, 2012, 08:48 PM
I am looking to buy a present for a good friend, but cant make up my mind. I am considering an AK 47 from Kvar or a PTR 91 GI from Atlantic firearms/cdnn. the price ranges are about equal. the friend likes to target practice and likes the idea of an all around defenseive weapon. which would you get and why?

If you enjoyed reading about "Whats a better present PTR 91 GI or AK 47 by K-var?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Cal-gun Fan
January 1, 2012, 08:59 PM
Don't get the PTR. Its a clone, whereas the Arsenal AK's are made from the Saiga, which is a real Izmash AK. The G3 style rifles have much more recoil than a .308 should, have crappy ergonomics, few accessories available, and are kind of niche.
The AK, on the other hand, is a bundle of fun. I got an SGL-21 back in May and am going to pick up an SGL-31 in January. I could say so much good about these guns it would sound like a commercial.
Ammo is cheap and there is plenty of it available, its easy to mount a scope via the siderail, there are TONS of accessories available (almost as many as an AR now), there is the novelty and the cool factor of it being an AK, the muzzle brake on the Arsenals works great, the fit and finish is fantastic...I love the Arsenals. There are other AKs like the WASR 10/63s that work fine, but they aren't anything special in my opinion.

Go for the Arsenal, you won't be dissapointed :)

Roman11
January 1, 2012, 09:16 PM
J & G has this Saiga 7.62X39 Converted AK Style Rifle, Mercury-Hermes Import, New. 1-1614xq for something like 520, how would you compare it to a k-var? is the k-var worth the premium and if so, why?

thanks in advance for your input. i do appreciate it.

Roman11
January 1, 2012, 09:17 PM
The converted Saiga i mentioned is found on this link, I am just wondering whether the quality is on par with what k-cvar sells.

http://www.jgsales.com/saiga-7.62x39-converted-ak-style-rifle,-mercury-hermes-import,-new.-p-6540.html

Cal-gun Fan
January 1, 2012, 09:30 PM
J & G has this Saiga 7.62X39 Converted AK Style Rifle, Mercury-Hermes Import, New. 1-1614xq for something like 520, how would you compare it to a k-var? is the k-var worth the premium and if so, why?

thanks in advance for your input. i do appreciate it.

The K-Var is worth it, but let me tell you why.
They are based on the same rifle, so they will both most likely be reliable and as accurate as an AK will be. However, Saiga conversions are nothing special. Anybody can do one as long as he can use a screwdriver, basically. What Arsenal does is more complicated-they actually restore the Saiga rifles to their respective AK-103 (7.62) and AK-74m (5.45) specs.

Don357
January 1, 2012, 09:55 PM
I don't know, I recently traded a Century CETME for a Century PSL and kinda wish I had not done it. G-3 platform vs AK platform, different caliber (7.62x51 vs 7.62x54 or 7.62x39) principal is still the same.... Jury's still out!

Roman11
January 1, 2012, 10:42 PM
i thought that k-var is essentially a saiga conversion plus some additional US made furniture. am i wrong? hos a k-var a ny different than the saiga conversion sold by J g? what is it about it that warrants a 300 dollar premium?

Cal-gun Fan
January 1, 2012, 11:12 PM
i thought that k-var is essentially a saiga conversion plus some additional US made furniture. am i wrong? hos a k-var a ny different than the saiga conversion sold by J g? what is it about it that warrants a 300 dollar premium?
The Saiga comes into the country as a sporting rifle. That doesn't really matter, as whatever furniture it has it is still a real Russian izmash made AK. They come in with a sporting stock and handguard that...I don't know, I think they're fugly. Plus, the trigger is moved back to prevent the use of a pistol grip, and the trigger pull is pretty bad. However, it is very easy to move the trigger guard forward, add a bullet guide for the gun to accept normal AK magazines (not possible in the sporting configuration), and add a new pistol grip/buttstock. Anybody can do that-and that is what the JG sales rifle is.
You could buy a Saiga rifle and convert it for less money than JG charges for that one. Also, it uses crappy, leftover parts. The Arsenal rifle takes the conversion to the full level, replacing the back end of the rifle with high-end K-Var furniture, adding the bullet guide, putting a true AK rear sight on it (normal Saiga's use a different one), converting it to use normal AK handguards, add correct AK gas blocks and front sight bases (which have the bayonet lug and accessory lug respectively, and add the muzzle brake and cleaning rod. This front end conversion is much tougher.
My point is this: Anybody can do a normal Saiga conversion, and I'm not saying that they're bad rifles, i'm just saying that they aren't anything special, whereas the Arsenal is probably the best factory AK on the market right now.

Girodin
January 2, 2012, 01:31 AM
I'd rather receive the PTR.

MistWolf
January 2, 2012, 06:02 AM
Myself, I'd rather receive the PTR GI. It's ergonomics are less crappy than an AK, sights are much better, the collapsing stock way cooler and I love the 308 in a battle rifle.

7.62x39 ammo is cheaper though

seasmoke
January 2, 2012, 07:49 AM
Another vote for the PTR91-GI. Give me the Teutonic beauty over a 'Eastern Bloc ghetto blaster' any day.

Roman11
January 2, 2012, 09:00 AM
I hear he PTR ia a PITA to
scope. How much additional labor is involved in scoping that rifle?

mmitch
January 2, 2012, 09:27 AM
Not difficult, at all:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww310/satcong_01/5x7_7431-1.jpg

Mike

Onmilo
January 2, 2012, 10:45 AM
PTR will still shoot with more accuracy than the Saiga AK
The guns are priced similar.

If I was to buy another AK, I would hold out and get a Bulgarian version which are by far, the Best AK rifles I have ever handled and shot.

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 10:53 AM
Thats not necessarily true. Arsenal AKs will shoot 1 MOA with good ammunition, not sure how well the PTRs will shoot. Also, for the ergo's, there are plenty of handguards/stocks/grips available for the AK to customize it to one's liking. The same can't be said for the PTR, and G3 style rifles are generally not well regarded for their ergonomics.

boricua9mm
January 2, 2012, 11:37 AM
Ahh yes, they mythical 1 MOA AK47. :cool: Sightings have occurred across America, but like the Sasquatch, evidence of its existence remains elusive.

Some folks shoot three shots and then turn around and claim their AK shoots 1 MOA. Other folks, who have a more firm grasp on statistical relevance, shoot 10 shot groups before making any accuracy claims. I have never, ever seen a 7.62 AK even approach 1 MOA using a 10-shot test bed over multiple strings, no matter what ammo is used. I have seen some piss poor rifles manage to have three bullets land close to one another once in a blue moon. I'm not so sure we can call those rifles 1 MOA shooters though.

But back to the original question, I don't like AKs but I find roller-locked HK pattern rifles to be inspiring and lots of fun to shoot. I'd take the PTR anyday, but be advised that HK clones require some knowledge before purchase to ensure you don't wind up with a problem child.

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 12:22 PM
Actually I concede to that, its hard to get an AK to shoot that well. With a scope, good ammo, good conditions, it can be done, but I've only managed it once or twice. 2-3 MOA is more what you'd expect. Though, the G3 style rifles i've shot haven't been that accurate either.

dmancornell
January 2, 2012, 01:30 PM
Actually I concede to that, its hard to get an AK to shoot that well. With a scope, good ammo, good conditions, it can be done, but I've only managed it once or twice. 2-3 MOA is more what you'd expect. Though, the G3 style rifles i've shot haven't been that accurate either.
My PTR-91 shoots 2.5 MOA 10 shot group with German MEN surplus, pretty sure an AK can't do the same with any kind of surplus.

I'd take a PTR simply because I'm invested in the caliber.

Roman11
January 2, 2012, 02:13 PM
Ok. Let's rephrase the question then, if you were held up in your house by a rioting mob of about 100 lunatics trying to get to our family and you had 1000 round is ammo in the relevant caliber and no time to clean the rifle etc. Which would you rather have - the k-var AK 47 with 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 or the PTR 91 with 1000 rounds of NATO 7.62?

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 02:26 PM
Having shot a real G3 and a PTR, I would definitely go for the AK. Easier to handle, higher capacity magazines (which are of course denied to me in California :) ), easier to operate, ammo is much, much cheaper.

GCMkc
January 2, 2012, 02:53 PM
I would say that my PTR-91 is comparable if not better than the real deal HK. Yes, it's a clone but made with actual HK machines and tools. The GI model at $899 is steal. Mags are cheap and plentiful but the only downside is the cost of ammo. If you don't have a problem shooting steal cased, then you should be good to go.

On the other hand, those Arsenal Saigas are badass and not "clones".

MistWolf
January 2, 2012, 04:03 PM
Ok. Let's rephrase the question then, if you were held up in your house by a rioting mob of about 100 lunatics trying to get to our family and you had 1000 round is ammo in the relevant caliber and no time to clean the rifle etc. Which would you rather have - the k-var AK 47 with 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 or the PTR 91 with 1000 rounds of NATO 7.62?

I'd go with the one I shoot better and have more confidence in- the PTR. The GI has fixed the fluting problems that the PTRs with the Thompson barrels had.

If you've already made up your mind that you want to buy your buddy an AK, then buy him an AK. You don't need us to validate your choice

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 04:14 PM
I would say that my PTR-91 is comparable if not better than the real deal HK. Yes, it's a clone but made with actual HK machines and tools. The GI model at $899 is steal. Mags are cheap and plentiful but the only downside is the cost of ammo. If you don't have a problem shooting steal cased, then you should be good to go.

On the other hand, those Arsenal Saigas are badass and not "clones".
I actually think the PTR I shot was smoother than the HK one, tbh. They're nice guns.

M1key
January 2, 2012, 04:57 PM
HK/G3/PTR/Cetme have the ergonomics of a giant Bavarian sausage, trash the brass to boot, and good luck with ammo costs. I have never tried it, but doubt they will handle cheaper Russian steel stuff.

Never handled the Arsenal Saiga, but I own five self-converted ones. They all are noticeably better shooters than the average run-of-the-mill Kalashnikov.

The effective range of the 308 is superior, but the X39 is a fine intermediate cartridge and cheaper to shoot.

Good luck

M

GCMkc
January 2, 2012, 05:44 PM
My AW# Serial number PTR-91 (supposidely these serial numbered guns won't run steel cased ammo according to some people) shoots Wolf, Brown Bear, Silver Bear, Tulammo, Federal, and match ammo just fine. With most of the Russian ammo being under $10 per 20 I feel confident to say that you can feed a PTR-91 without breaking the bank...But I usually don't shoot more than 100rds of .308 on any one occasion. CTD, Ammo-to-go, and AIMSurplus have cheap .308 ($7-$10 per box of 20).

I feel that the ergonomics are fine for me. If I wanted to I could upgrade to paddle mag release (Bill Springfield does them for about $125-150) and an extended safety lever (PSG1 extended lever is about $100) and then they would be on point. It's definitely not as ergo as the AR platforms, but it's a totally different beast.

MistWolf
January 2, 2012, 06:27 PM
I'd rather have the ergonomics of Bavarian sausage than a Russo wood plank. It doesn't matter if the rifle dents the brass on if you're shooting steel cases

InkEd
January 2, 2012, 06:29 PM
Buy an Arsenal SGL-21.

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 07:04 PM
I'd rather have the ergonomics of Bavarian sausage than a Russo wood plank. It doesn't matter if the rifle dents the brass on if you're shooting steel cases
If you don't like the ergos of the AK you can change them. Can't do that with a PTR.

GCMkc
January 2, 2012, 07:19 PM
If you don't like the ergos of the AK you can change them. Can't do that with a PTR.

You can change them. Plenty of different trigger housings, stocks, and safety levers for HK9x / PTR rifles.

Most of what you would need can be found here: http://www.robertrtg.com/g3.html

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 07:24 PM
You can change them. Plenty of different trigger housings, stocks, and safety levers for HK9x / PTR rifles.

Most of what you would need can be found here: http://www.robertrtg.com/g3.html
Thats still not too much. With the AK you've got multiple flavors of Russian stocks, adjustable LOP stocks, folding stocks, lightweight stocks, not to mention you can get an adapter and put any stock on it that you can put on an AR (Though it looks fugly). There are hundreds of different grips available from SAW style grips to ergo grips. Tons of handguards too.

GCMkc
January 2, 2012, 07:28 PM
Thats still not too much. With the AK you've got multiple flavors of Russian stocks, adjustable LOP stocks, folding stocks, lightweight stocks, not to mention you can get an adapter and put any stock on it that you can put on an AR (Though it looks fugly). There are hundreds of different grips available from SAW style grips to ergo grips. Tons of handguards too.

You can get the exact same stuff for PTR rifles. Literally, everything you just listed.

seasmoke
January 2, 2012, 07:39 PM
@ M1key..post WW11.. CETME/G3/HK91/G3-Clones/PTR-91ect. As to the brass 'issue', I don't believe re-loading spent casings was part of the original design(the whole war thing). As to the range advantage of the 7.62x51 over 7.62x39...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs

M1key
January 2, 2012, 08:22 PM
I have some other issues with the HK91/Cetme system.

Rollers need to be kept clean and oiled. If they ever get rusty, the bolt will lock up tighter than a drum. The Contras experienced this problem (more than likely due to poor maintenance) in the hot, humid jungles of Central America.

It has also been reported that if the charging handle housing is dented, the handle locks up and the rifle is rendered useless.

Field strip the rifle a dozen times and you will notice the component parts (buttstock, receiver, trigger group, handguard) will begin to loosen and the whole rifle will flex when you shoulder/shoot it. Just one of those little annoyances that bugged me too much.

All that said, my HK-91 that I purchsed in the 70's was wonderfully accurate. I once shot eight rounds (150gr reloads) into 7/8 inches dead center X-ring at 175 paces with iron sights. This was witnessed by a friend who also owned one. I doubt I could ever do that again...

If y'all luv the HK system go for it. Just ain't my cup o' tea.


M

Ignition Override
January 2, 2012, 08:42 PM
Doesn't Century Arms' (CETME etc) warranty period begin when the rifle is shipped to a gun store, instead of from the date of customer purchase?

If so, and the gun sits in a shop for five months before you make the purchase, then your warranty isn't good for too much longer, is it?

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 08:45 PM
The PTR rifles are not made by Century.

If you enjoyed reading about "Whats a better present PTR 91 GI or AK 47 by K-var?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!