Best AK-47 that isn't a Saiga...


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Carolina Kalash
January 2, 2012, 09:49 PM
I am really wanting an AK47, and i would love a saiga arsenal, but for the price of those, i might as well get an AR-15. And i know theres plenty of videos and how-tos on the internet, but i don't think i could convert a saiga sporter without screwing it up, so what's one of the better AK clones out there? I would prefer an actual 7.62x39 AK47, but i guess i could settle for a 5.45 AK74 if i had to...

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DoubleTapDrew
January 2, 2012, 09:58 PM
Vectors are nice if you can find one. Honestly it's really easy to convert a saiga and it's the real thing & current production. There's not much to screw up. I debated whether or not I could do it for a while and finally took the plunge on a S308. Afterwards I laughed about doubting myself and converted a s12. They are easy.

Telekinesis
January 2, 2012, 09:58 PM
I have a Vector underfolder that I really like. IIRC it is built on a Polish kit. It's pretty accurate for an AK (and I have XS Big Dots on it, not really made for accuracy) and runs no matter what I do to it. I believe they also have a fixed stock version if you don't like the UF.

In my opinion, I think of the price of an Arsenal as "a high quality AK vs a low quality AR". The Arsenal you can throw around, beat on, get muddy, and even walk on and it will still run fine. I don't think you'd have as much luck if you tried that with an AR at the Arsenal's price range.

Mr.Blue
January 2, 2012, 10:03 PM
The Bulgarian's make a very good AK. Arsenal imports them, or used to, from K-Var.

Carolina Kalash
January 2, 2012, 10:04 PM
"In my opinion, I think of the price of an Arsenal as "a high quality AK vs a low quality AR". The Arsenal you can throw around, beat on, get muddy, and even walk on and it will still run fine. I don't think you'd have as much luck if you tried that with an AR at the Arsenal's price range."

still, AKs are supposed to be cheap, imo there is no reason ANY gun should cost that much...

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 10:07 PM
...there is no reason ANY gun should cost $700-900 bucks...?

Ranger30-06
January 2, 2012, 10:23 PM
Every AK EXCEPT for the Saiga's are going to be identical. Loose, somewhat accurate, and reliable with good mags. The Saiga's are tighter and can be very accurate, and like the other poster said, you really can't mess one up. Seriously, if you've ever used a power drill, you can do this. Just have some very good metal drill bits rated for hardened steel.

Hacker15E
January 2, 2012, 10:29 PM
I don't think you'd have as much luck if you tried that with an AR at the Arsenal's price range.

Which Arsenal model's price are you referring to?

A Colt's 6920, which is essentially the "gold standard" for AR-15 pattern rifles, is selling in the low-mid $900s currently.

Carolina Kalash
January 2, 2012, 10:30 PM
...there is no reason ANY gun should cost $700-900 bucks...?
unless it belonged to a general and/or is gold plated or some distinguishing quality like that, yeah... a gun is nothing more than a simple mechanical device made from metal and wood/composite material...

InkEd
January 2, 2012, 10:34 PM
Really guys....?

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 10:45 PM
unless it belonged to a general and/or is gold plated or some distinguishing quality like that, yeah... a gun is nothing more than a simple mechanical device made from metal and wood/composite material...
....I'm not sure how to reply to that, honestly. I'm really not.

Carolina Kalash
January 2, 2012, 10:57 PM
....I'm not sure how to reply to that, honestly. I'm really not.
well, that's my belief... now if was filthy stinkin rich, i wouldn't give a rat's ass what a gun cost...

but when yur like me and struggle to make a little money here and there whilst submiting several job applications weekly and for some reason still can't get hired, you'd understand where i was coming from...

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 11:03 PM
I understand where you're coming from, but bad financial situations don't correlate to what something should cost. What about people, also hard working, who have worked very hard to develop a certain skill and put out a fine product that is worth more than the average item?

Its common sense...some things cost more than others because they take more work to make.

EDIT: Your question has a simple answer. If you don't want to buy an Arsenal, you have two real options. Convert a Saiga, or buy a WASR 10/63. I don't mean to be rude, but no matter how many threads you post, some magical new AK will not be invented...

RCArms.com
January 2, 2012, 11:09 PM
My recommendation would be on an older Norinco model, either fixed or folder. Top notch quality and a 1.5mm receiver over the standard 1.0mm usually encountered.

Price on these when they pop up from time to time would rival a top of the line Arsenal, so not too sure if it fit the bill for you.

As for the budget minded, a WASR with uncanted sights is still an AK and is very hard to beat value wise.

Don

Carolina Kalash
January 2, 2012, 11:09 PM
I understand where you're coming from, but bad financial situations don't correlate to what something should cost. What about people, also hard working, who have worked very hard to develop a certain skill and put out a fine product that is worth more than the average item?

Its common sense...some things cost more than others because they take more work to make.

EDIT: Your question has a simple answer. If you don't want to buy an Arsenal, you have two real options. Convert a Saiga, or buy a WASR 10/63. I don't mean to be rude, but no matter how many threads you post, some magical new AK will not be invented...
well i mean if it's something that takes precise, well trained workers alot of time and care to make, that's one thing, but big companies like Izmash churns out 100s if not 1000s of these guns every day, and i know they have to be imported and all that other mess, but still...

Sebastian the Ibis
January 2, 2012, 11:11 PM
Get one of the $450 converted sagas at classicarms.us. its a Saiga and it's cheap.

Hacker15E
January 2, 2012, 11:14 PM
The market dictates what something costs...not what someone "feels like it should cost".

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 11:14 PM
I don't know the intricacies of the situation in Russia, but Izmash is a GIGANTIC factory with laborers who are most likely underpaid, and I'm not sure, but the Russian government may/may not own, subsidize, or have a stake in Izmash. If not, then they, and other countries, certainly have big, fat contracts with them.
Arsenal is a small company in America. That means they pay American wages and are dealing with the American economic situation, which as you pointed out, could be better.

Carolina Kalash
January 2, 2012, 11:19 PM
well anyway, from what i've seen, the WASR-10s or Bulgarians seem to be the best way to go for me, they still cost a little more than what i want to pay, but might just have to deal with it... i'm guessing my best bet would be to order one off the internet right? i know JG sales has some decent deals on WASRs but i dont think they have any bulgarian AKs...

edit: i just looked and they have a selection of WASRs but no bulgarians...

Cal-gun Fan
January 2, 2012, 11:22 PM
If you could have your gunstore get a WASR 10/63 in and inspect it before you buy it, that would be best, that way you can inspect it and check everything out first.

Carolina Kalash
January 2, 2012, 11:24 PM
i might just try that...

ifit
January 2, 2012, 11:58 PM
forget the saigas, and look into the current cugir aks types as cal-gun suggested. was also gonna order me a 1063 then the m10 showed and decided on that. saigas were not for me, as i have 4 cugir type variants total and never had a problem with them. this is my latest romy variant
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/036-3.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/007-5.jpg

Rob G
January 3, 2012, 12:46 AM
Honestly finding a truly cheap AK anymore isn't really all that easy to do. Your best bet would probably be to buy a WASR 10/63 from Henderson defense. They "certify" theirs which means basically they look them over and make sure they don't have canted sights, messed up magwells, or any of the other things WASRs have had problems with in the past.

Your only other real chance might be to find one locally at a gun store or something. I occasionally see used WASRs and AMD 65s show up at my local gun store in the sub $400 range.

For the record a WASR is a solid gun. The fit and finish isn't fantastic but that's something you can work on yourself over time.

InkEd
January 3, 2012, 01:15 AM
Find a TGI built AMD-65. They are the best of the cheap AK variants.

Telekinesis
January 3, 2012, 02:06 AM
Which Arsenal model's price are you referring to?

A Colt's 6920, which is essentially the "gold standard" for AR-15 pattern rifles, is selling in the low-mid $900s currently.

I was referring to the lower end Arsenals, as I was pretty sure at the time (and later confirmed) that the OP was trying to keep costs down. I was thinking about something like a SGL 21 with fixed stock etc. I've seen them going for around $700 (sometimes a bit less) locally. I wasn't aware that the Colts were going for that little though. I may have to look at picking one up soon...

Gasitman
January 3, 2012, 02:10 AM
well, that's my belief... now if was filthy stinkin rich, i wouldn't give a rat's ass what a gun cost...

but when yur like me and struggle to make a little money here and there whilst submiting several job applications weekly and for some reason still can't get hired, you'd understand where i was coming from...
Dork, I'm with you, how does a Wilson combat made of about 38oz of steel cost more than a m1a made with pounds of metal and wood? A glock cost $600? Is there what, like $30 worth of metal and another $12 of plastic? Not to many firearms are cutting age technology. If we could, anyone of us could build a gun in machine shop in High school for around $100.

As for the OP's question, I have a waffen works ak-74, ammo is cheaper than 47 and I paid $600 for a beautiful AK.

Telekinesis
January 3, 2012, 02:17 AM
Dork, I'm with you, how does a Wilson combat made of about 38oz of steel cost more than a m1a made with pounds of metal and wood? A glock cost $600? Is there what, like $30 worth of metal and another $12 of plastic? Not to many firearms are cutting age technology. If we could, anyone of us could build a gun in machine shop in High school for around $100.

Yes, individual unit price is low, but in buying a gun you are also helping to cover the business expenses too. Things like wages, materials, R&D, the shop, insurance, FFL fees, importation, etc. then you have the market working on the price too. It takes a lot more to bring a gun to market than just building it. I do wish that the prices would be lower though.

Inebriated
January 3, 2012, 02:45 AM
Just build the Saiga.
Saiga - $300 @ JG
US-Made Stock/Grip/Handguards - $100
Lower Handguard Retainer and Gas Tube, to mount the handguards - $90
US-Made Trigger group - $25
Trigger Guard - $5

Total - $520. You get everything but the threaded muzzle and brake, which would be only a few bucks more to do. Honestly, ordering all the parts will take longer than doing the conversion, as long as you have a drill, some decent bits, and a dremel, if you want to make standard AK magazines fit. If you go that route, you may also need a bullet guide.

Cecil Sharps
January 3, 2012, 08:48 AM
Interarms makes an ak47 clone. I wish i knew what nationality the parts kit came from. If it had a side scope mount it would be a great rifle.

Davek1977
January 3, 2012, 09:09 AM
If we could, anyone of us could build a gun in machine shop in High school for around $100.
Then, by all means.....DO IT. There is no (federal) law prohibiting manufacturing one's own guns for personal use. If you really believe you can turn out a quality weapon for "around $100" do it, and afterwards, be sure to post pics. I'm curious if you can put your money where your mouth is.....maybe after an attempt or two, you'll see where those prices REALLY come from.....

Averageman
January 3, 2012, 09:09 AM
As with any rifle you purchase, essentially you get what you pay for.
If you want quality you are going to have to look at converting a Saiga or paying someone to do the conversion for you.
As AK's have become more popular, more folks producing a quality conversion have gotten in to the market.
Most folks I have spoken to about the 5.56 version AK74 find it more accurate than the 7.62 AK47.
You'll never pay KIA prices and get a Ferrari though, thats just the way it is.

highpower
January 3, 2012, 09:30 AM
To find the best deal on an AK, you really need to be willing do more than just pose questions on the internet.

From your description of your job situation, you have far more time than money. Use that to your advantage and visit local gun stores, go to gun shows and learn what the market is for them in your area.

You seem to have made up your mind that there should be cheap AK's falling out of the woodwork and unfortunately that just ain't so. The days of really inexpensive AK variants (except for Saiga's and WASR's) are over and have been for a year or more.

Speaking of Saiga, that is by far the best deal going out there and yet you seem to have dismissed them out of hand because they would take a little work to convert into a version that you like. If you are really serious, about getting one, stop telling yourself that you can't do the conversion and start asking how you can do it.

You are right about one thing though, The price of AR15's has come way down and it is possible to build one right now for about $600. Of course, you would have to actually install the hammer, trigger and a few other small parts in the lower but that takes all of about 20 minuets.

Sorry for the rant, but the internet seems to have given people the idea that they don't have to do anything to get what they want, just keep complaining that they can't get it.

BTW, I have built both an AK and an AR this year and it really wasn't all that big a deal

Zastava PAP (Yugo M70 variant). Converted to double stack magazine well and new wood.
http://highpower.smugmug.com/Other/AK/i-fWc4tpZ/0/XL/IMG0717-XL.jpg

PSA AR15. PSA complete rifle kit and PSA lower. Time to assemble: about 30 min.
http://highpower.smugmug.com/Other/AR15/i-8Nk3cnc/0/XL/IMG0846-XL.jpg

spyderdude
January 3, 2012, 09:57 AM
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/spyderdude18/IMGP0449.jpg

I paid 699 for this Polish Milled 1960 AK.

JHenry
January 3, 2012, 11:16 AM
Well anything that isnt a saiga is probably going to be a parts kit built with a US manufactured bbl and receiver, so you want to look make sure the bbl is green mountain and the reciever is nodak spud(the best domestic parts from what i understand).

Although the Yugo m70 is one of the better rifles you can get, although im not sure what they do to it for compliance purposes

Cal-gun Fan
January 3, 2012, 11:20 AM
I thought green mountain sucked?

JHenry
January 3, 2012, 11:26 AM
Zastava PAP (Yugo M70 variant). Converted to double stack magazine well and new wood.


Speaking of the PAP how hard is it to grind down the front trunion for the standard 30 rounders? and when you replace the two pins does it take standard pins or would one need to get special pins?

JHenry
January 3, 2012, 11:29 AM
Green Mountain may or may not, but US manufactered ak barrels arnt known for being top quality. However i think Green Mountain is one the best US manufacters. You could always swap it out from a surplus bbl but then youd have to use another US part for compliance in addition to all the work needed to fit a new bbl in an ak.

TXSWFAN
January 3, 2012, 12:01 PM
Best AK-47 that isn't a Saiga

IMO, it would be the Polytech Legend.

http://i40.tinypic.com/zmmohy.jpg

ghitch75
January 3, 2012, 12:21 PM
ya but Polytech's are 2k and up.....find a SLR-95 and you'll pas it down to your kids at half the price or less....

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb368/ghitch75/S3010035.jpg

highpower
January 3, 2012, 09:11 PM
Speaking of the PAP how hard is it to grind down the front trunion for the standard 30 rounders? and when you replace the two pins does it take standard pins or would one need to get special pins?

Not hard, I just TIG welded the ends of the rivet to the trunnion.

Like this:
http://highpower.smugmug.com/Other/AK/i-dXNhMQn/0/XL/IMG0852-XL.jpg

Carolina Kalash
January 3, 2012, 09:50 PM
if i were to get a AMD-65, would i need to do any modifications to the gun to put a regular AK handguard on it? that odd handguard is really the only thing i have against it, that and it's really flimsy looking side folder...

Bohemus
January 4, 2012, 06:01 PM
T
Zastava PAP (Yugo M70 variant). Converted to double stack magazine well and new wood.
http://highpower.smugmug.com/Other/AK/i-fWc4tpZ/0/XL/IMG0717-XL.jpg

Never liked AKs, but this one is beautiful.

JustinJ
January 4, 2012, 06:20 PM
I don't know the intricacies of the situation in Russia, but Izmash is a GIGANTIC factory with laborers who are most likely underpaid, and I'm not sure, but the Russian government may/may not own, subsidize, or have a stake in Izmash. If not, then they, and other countries, certainly have big, fat contracts with them.

The guns received as is from Izhmash can be had for as little as $300. That even after importation and mark up by distributors and end sellers, not to mention shipping costs.

If anybody thinks that is too much i pity their wife.


but when yur like me and struggle to make a little money here and there whilst submiting several job applications weekly and for some reason still can't get hired, you'd understand where i was coming from...

Dork, I'm with you, how does a Wilson combat made of about 38oz of steel cost more than a m1a made with pounds of metal and wood? A glock cost $600? Is there what, like $30 worth of metal and another $12 of plastic? Not to many firearms are cutting age technology. If we could, anyone of us could build a gun in machine shop in High school for around $100.

Wow. I would love to see this $100 shop class gun built without the knowledge of a machinist and mechanical engineer. See, not shoot, because i value my face.

The lack of basic economics principle comprehension is kind of scary. The costs of any product, gun or other, reflect a huge number of factors. You apparently have no understanding of what it costs to develop a mere improvement to an existing product, much less a completely new one.

imsobored
January 9, 2012, 06:47 PM
You can get a new zastava ak from buds for under 400.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using tapatalk

JohnnyK
January 9, 2012, 07:49 PM
+1 for TGI AMD-65... mine ROCKS! Saigas rock! look on Atlantic Firearms or Gun broker for deals.. I found my Golani with 8 mags including a 50 rounder for $600 it's a perfect Centry build and my 3-gun rifle...

69Rebel
January 10, 2012, 01:08 AM
So....did the OP buy a rifle yet?

badsugarterrors
January 16, 2012, 04:29 AM
My brother and I visited a gunshow in Pasendena. He bought a WASR that was 438.00 and I bought an Arsenal SGL-21 (Saiga) for 750.00. When he was buying his, he noticed that some of the rivets in the wood stocks were different amonst the WASRs. He didn't care... he doesn't care about his getting torn up or quality of finish. He just wants it to shoot everytime. That's the difference between he and I. Of course, that's his only gun, and I have a gun safe the size of a fridge.

My Arsenal Saiga was exactly the same as the one next to it. No blemishes or differences. The finish was parkerized, like the M590A1 shotty or kinda like Rhinoliner of a truck bed. Very tough.

Comparisons I noticed, trigger pull was different. Mine was longer then snapped. Good for precision shots. WASR was short and spongy. Good for rapid firing but kinda went off quicker than wanted. The accuracy at 25 yards was about 5" outside of my (Arsenal) shot group. When charging the bolt, mine was little smoother, while the WASR sounded like it was grinding more.

Basically, for 300 more, I got a name brand gun with better resale. Possibly better accuracy. Will have to actually test that at a further range to be sure. Better finish with quality to details, and already converted. Mind you the WASR was already converted too.
hope this helps a little.

Davek1977
January 16, 2012, 08:16 AM
Mind you the WASR was already converted too.

No, it wasn't. WASR's don't come in an "unconverted" form, unless you are talking about the ones that only accept single stack mags.

Sky
January 16, 2012, 08:55 AM
Find a TGI built AMD-65. They are the best of the cheap AK variants.

Paid less than $400 for mine from Centerfire systems and it is a keeper

AethelstanAegen
January 16, 2012, 09:47 AM
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn100/AethelstanAegen/DSC01477.jpg

+1 on the TGI AMD-65. It's hard to beat the bang for your buck when they're only about $400 (cheaper than a WASR).

I'd also recommend Interarms. My Interarms built Tantal is great, except for the 922r compliance parts all the numbers match. It works great, is accurate and is pretty much anything you'd want in an AK.

jem375
January 16, 2012, 11:19 AM
My recommendation would be on an older Norinco model, either fixed or folder. Top notch quality and a 1.5mm receiver over the standard 1.0mm usually encountered.

Price on these when they pop up from time to time would rival a top of the line Arsenal, so not too sure if it fit the bill for you.

As for the budget minded, a WASR with uncanted sights is still an AK and is very hard to beat value wise.

Don
This, Norinco's are very good and reliable Ak's to buy, and am always on the lookout for one at my local gunshops.....

C'Thulhu
January 16, 2012, 05:16 PM
Hasn't anyone metioned the VEPR?

JHenry
January 16, 2012, 05:26 PM
Only problem with Norincos is they are a chore to find and theyre starting to really climb in price.

The VEPRs are good as well but the back of the receiver has an odd slant cut out of it that looks really ugly if you dont fill it somehow(assuming you take the thumbhole stock off

MenaceMan47
January 17, 2012, 12:01 AM
My very first firearm was a Chinese MAK-90 in 7.62x39, circa 1993. Bought from the original owner (a WW2 weapons collector who happened to HATE AK's...?) for $400. I have about 3K rounds through it and it's still a bulletproof rifle after 10 years of owning it. Nowadays, I see the same rifles selling for upwards of $600 on GunBroker.

Ar180shooter
January 17, 2012, 12:14 AM
Dork, I'm with you, how does a Wilson combat made of about 38oz of steel cost more than a m1a made with pounds of metal and wood? A glock cost $600? Is there what, like $30 worth of metal and another $12 of plastic? Not to many firearms are cutting age technology. If we could, anyone of us could build a gun in machine shop in High school for around $100.

As for the OP's question, I have a waffen works ak-74, ammo is cheaper than 47 and I paid $600 for a beautiful AK.
Why does a BMW cost more than a Honda Civic then?

The answer has to do with quality of components, complexity of the mechanism (remember that a 1911 has many parts that require high precision machining and fitting). Pistols are generally more complex than rifles too. The big part of the cost isn't materials, but machining time and labor.

Would you be willing to go to College for 2-3 years, learning how to machine high precision parts, and then work for $5/hour making 1911 slides, just so people can have "cheap" American made pistols? I doubt it. Quality comes at a cost. People that can make quality things don't work for peanuts.

As for setting up shop in a high school, go ahead, but after 40 hours of machining, grinding, fitting and bluing all of the parts required to assemble a quality 1911, you won't be selling it for $400. Also that is having all of the machines provided to you at no cost. Look in to how much an industrial grade CNC machine costs.

badsugarterrors
January 17, 2012, 01:30 AM
What I meant to say is, it was already a rifle that didn't need to be converted. It already had the pistol grip and not sporterized. I wasn't referring to specifically the WASR but didn't know that WASR didn't have a sporterized variant.

ziondogg
January 17, 2012, 09:28 PM
I've never worked on a gun in my life and I did the conversion in a couple hours. There are plenty of videos online that can walk you through it. Get a saiga, you won't be sorry. Centerfire has them for under $300.

Strykervet
January 17, 2012, 09:36 PM
ya but Polytech's are 2k and up.....find a SLR-95 and you'll pas it down to your kids at half the price or less....

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb368/ghitch75/S3010035.jpg
I just helped a lady get an AK for her boyfriend last Christmas. I asked specifically if there was one better and didn't really get a positive answer. That milled SLR95 is, as far as I know, the best AK out there, especially for the price. I don't own an AK, but I'd love to get my hands on another of those. It is just a VERY well built AK, tough as nails, solid receiver, and get this, it has a Steyr chrome lined barrel. If there is a better AK for the price I haven't seen it.

1fromtheparapet
February 13, 2012, 07:03 PM
Hey, second post on THR (or anywhere else) and hope I'm in the right place and post the right way and don't get out of line. MY THR question #1 was a revolver thread question on my K38, well answered by Radagast. Been an off&on shooter for long time (as a kid in the early 70's) but have never been a precision shooter or a connoisseur—both of which I find myself gravitating towards there in middle age. Along with a growing touch of survivalist and have recently set up a gun maint and reloading shed. Anyway, I'm planning to buy an AK platform rifle (maybe at a NC gun show this weekend). THR question #2: If my plan is to keep it around $500 or less, that I want a good gun that'll always be easy to find parts for, and prefer not to have to Tapco everything (unless I find a good gun for $400 or less), what on earth do I look for? The more I try to establish some solid guidelines the more fuzzy it all seems to get. I found one at Classic Arms—Romanian M10-762 made with all new parts with the Tapco upgrades—and they're pretty local to me but have no show room. And I don't know if it'll take "regular" AK stuff. I like the look of the original WASRs as well as the more modernized stuff but, well, gone too long already and time to hit the road. Any help will be much appreciated.

Telekinesis
February 13, 2012, 07:37 PM
1fromtheparpet
Welcome to THR!
First, paragraphs help when people are reading quickly, and probably more importantly, new topics (or questions) should be put in new threads. Keeps everything nice and clean as opposed to having 20 people in one thread all asking different questions with no one being able to get in an answer ;) I'll do my best to give you a quick answer to your question though.

Looking for an AK (I assume you want a 7.62x39?) for around $500 will mainly put you into looking at WASRs. They're not the best accuracy, fit or finish wise, but they'll usually work decently if you make sure it is correct from the factory (the warranty is nearly nonexistent). Things to look for are canted gas block/sight, and mag fit. I don't have any experience with the Romanian M10-762 you mentioned. If you go with a used gun, you may be able to get a bit higher quality gun, but don't expect to get an Arsenal AK.

Gun shows usually aren't the best place to find a deal, especially if you aren't well versed on the specifics of the gun you want, but if you manage to find one, more power to ya.

nwilliams
February 14, 2012, 01:28 AM
My vote would go to the Cugir M10-762 that is currently being imported by M&M Inc. They are built on all new Romanian parts and I have been extremely impressed with mine so far. I would say they are easily on par with a Saiga when it comes to build quality and certainly better than any Century Arms AK.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/M10-762/M10-762-1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/M10-762/M10-762-2.jpg

ifit
February 14, 2012, 06:18 AM
agreed also on the new m10s also being offered in 5.45. they are very well put together ak, and no stinkin conversion needed which how a true akm variant should be;)


by the way their is no best ak47;)

briansmithwins
February 14, 2012, 07:15 AM
Mine!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Wk-H-Aupc9Y/TwjU-uZt2wI/AAAAAAAABhE/Eq_iqa4bQLc/w800-h402-k/IMG_7334Medium.jpg

BSW

1fromtheparapet
February 14, 2012, 07:50 AM
Thank you Telekinesis, gentlemen all! I think the curve will be a tad steeper than I expected to determine which particular one to get (though the post by nwilliams did show the one I've been eyeing the last few days). But, I do know WHY I want one.

(Like I said, new to forums. Hope this works...)

This is a 2008 post by “Hollis” from the Professional Soldier forum:

“I build my own ARs and AKs. When asked by a friend the difference? I said it is simple look at the armorers kit…

AR kit:
159030

AK kit:
159031

All I will add to Hollis is that's pretty much why I like Glocks, as well as why I want an AK.

1fromtheparapet
February 14, 2012, 08:04 AM
My vote would go to the Cugir M10-762 that is currently being imported by M&M Inc. They are built on all new Romanian parts and I have been extremely impressed with mine so far. I would say they are easily on par with a Saiga when it comes to build quality and certainly better than any Century Arms AK.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/M10-762/M10-762-1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/M10-762/M10-762-2.jpg
I've been thinking of making my purchace here:
http://classicarms.us/semi-auto%20rifles.htm
(if you want a look scroll waaay down to the ITEM # ROM-AK-M10......$499.99)

Can you tell me more about it? Is the barrel threaded? Does it take all the regular AK stuff? Funiture, etc?

briansmithwins
February 14, 2012, 08:36 AM
The funny thing is ARs are like putting LEGOs together, you pick out the blocks you want to play with, snap them together, and you're done.

AKs actually require some skill to fit all the parts together so they work right.

The commies didn't stamp numbers on all those AKs to keep guys employed.

BSW

1fromtheparapet
February 14, 2012, 09:52 AM
I like legos. They're just too pricey. My girls are at university. One of them getting married in July (to a cop. Good guy, good job, but they'll never be rich), so mommy and daddy have to watch the pennies. Someday I'd like to add an AR platform to the safe. Maybe when the house is empty, the back account is full, and if I'm not too old...

Ranger30-06
February 14, 2012, 10:05 AM
I like legos. They're just too pricey. My girls are at university. One of them getting married in July (to a cop. Good guy, good job, but they'll never be rich), so mommy and daddy have to watch the pennies. Someday I'd like to add an AR platform to the safe. Maybe when the house is empty, the back account is full, and if I'm not too old...

Just so your aware, there are AR's being made right now for around the same price as these AK's ($600). That's another discussion though and there are literally dozens of threads already on here on that subject.

Anyway, my vote goes for the Saiga. ~$330 at most places and for another $150 and a little (if any) mechanical skill and you can convert the rifle and have a brand new, Russian AK100 series rifle. (The AK100 series is the updated AK47). And for the guys promoting other country's versions, just remember: Their AK's never won them any wars against the country that originally made the rifle. :D

1fromtheparapet
February 14, 2012, 10:58 AM
Just so your aware, there are AR's being made right now for around the same price as these AK's ($600). That's another discussion though and there are literally dozens of threads already on here on that subject.

Anyway, my vote goes for the Saiga. ~$330 at most places and for another $150 and a little (if any) mechanical skill and you can convert the rifle and have a brand new, Russian AK100 series rifle. (The AK100 series is the updated AK47). And for the guys promoting other country's versions, just remember: Their AK's never won them any wars against the country that originally made the rifle. :D
Good points. Thanks. (More to think about, too!)

1fromtheparapet
February 14, 2012, 11:01 AM
Good points. Thanks. (More to think about, too!)
PS- Americans won those wars! It was the moral high ground that gave us the greatest advantage! Fine weaponry certainly didn't hurt, though ;-]

1fromtheparapet
February 14, 2012, 11:03 AM
(I didn't botch any community etiquette there, did I?)

briansmithwins
February 14, 2012, 12:07 PM
I think America has won its wars despite our small arms instead of because of them.

The M1 Garand is the rare exception. Of course, the BAR and M1919 were WWI relics during WWII and Korea.

BSW

1fromtheparapet
February 14, 2012, 12:49 PM
You may be right about that.

1fromtheparapet
February 15, 2012, 07:44 AM
My vote would go to the Cugir M10-762 that is currently being imported by M&M Inc. They are built on all new Romanian parts and I have been extremely impressed with mine so far. I would say they are easily on par with a Saiga when it comes to build quality and certainly better than any Century Arms AK.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/M10-762/M10-762-1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/M10-762/M10-762-2.jpg
Thanks much. I think I will probably go with the Cugir M10-762 for 500 bucks. For a start, anyway.

Upon looking around the gun forum galaxy I haven’t found much in the way of negativity—excepting those who don’t own one, or think spending more is always better. This may be true more often than not but I’m not in that tax bracket. And then those taking a sit-back-wait-and-see posture (probably wisest). And, of course, those who don't like anything foreign or particularly Eastern Bloc. I consider the latter spoils of the Cold War ;-]

Is there anything to look for? Look out for? Is it compatible with most standard AK parts, furniture, and accessories? I’ll most probably order one Saturday afternoon if I can’t find a private gun show sale Saturday morning. Again, please all keep me schooled in forum etiquette. I'm a slow learner and not very well-socialized.

Ranger30-06
February 15, 2012, 09:37 AM
The only ones that pretty much have a universal "stay away" vibe are the Century AK's.

Things to look for:

A loose mag well. A little wiggle is okay, but no more than a millimeter. This can cause feeding problems.
Work the bolt a couple times. It doesn't really need to be smooth (that will happen when you shoot it), but I would run it anyway just so you can get a feel that nothing is wrong.
Look at the finish. It will tell you how much care they put into the insides.
The Russian ones are the best, followed by the Bulgarian ones. Some people love the Chinese ones, but Chinese steel is softer than anyone else's because they recycle the crap out of it. This may or may not be a bad thing, but I sure wouldn't be betting my life on one...

1fromtheparapet
February 15, 2012, 03:24 PM
Ok thanks much. New toy on the horizon. Getting a bit itchy...

ifit
February 15, 2012, 04:41 PM
ranger, dont know abot the russians being the "best". if it is i did not get the memo. cause all i have are chinese/romanian/vepr, they are not the "best" but work like any ak should. as a matter of fact dont even have a saiga or arsenal, skipped those. having a couple of chines firearms and your saying the metal is softer, have you done any metallurgy tests to confirm this? i had a total of 6 chinese firearms, and never even notice such a thing.

Ranger30-06
February 15, 2012, 06:33 PM
ranger, dont know abot the russians being the "best". if it is i did not get the memo. cause all i have are chinese/romanian/vepr, they are not the "best" but work like any ak should. as a matter of fact dont even have a saiga or arsenal, skipped those. having a couple of chines firearms and your saying the metal is softer, have you done any metallurgy tests to confirm this? i had a total of 6 chinese firearms, and never even notice such a thing.

Well considering the fact that the Russians created the AK family, I'm pretty sure they know how to make it the best.

As for the steel, Russian steel is noticeably harder than Chinese, and even American. The Chinese recycle their steel to the point that it loses its tensile strength, and when you compare Chinese steel to other steel such as Russian or American steel, it's easily noticeable. Ever notice why cheap Chinese drill bits won't cut through new American steel? Because they're too soft. On the contrary, I had to buy an $80 set of top of the line drill bits to drill through the steel on my Saiga (Russian steel) when I was converting it.

Now despite all of this, I don't think this necessarily hurts the reliability of the Chinese AK's, but I do think it may have an effect on the long term durability of the weapon. You also have to remember, the Russians overkill everything. Seriously, anything made by a Russian is probably twice as tough as it needs to be. Key: Mosin's, Hind helicopters, their buildings, even their tools!

armysniper
February 15, 2012, 09:55 PM
Vector Ak's in my opinion are premium. The fit and finish of them are among if not the best on the market. I currently own the underfolder model. I would not mind having a full stock model in the future.

Kymasabe
February 16, 2012, 12:19 AM
Gonna throw my 2 cents worth in here. I've converted lots of Saiga's. First one was the scariest, had to keep going back to the video to make sure I got it right. When it was done, I thought "that was it? That was easy". Now, in about three hours and some basic hand tools, I can have one done. I order all my conversion parts from Dinzags site or from Carolina Shooters Supply.
That way you end up with a new gun, new barrel, not monkey'd around with, not surplus/used parts, and you know your gun inside and out.

As far as other guns I've owned and "best" AK. Some guys love Arsenals or Krebs or whatever. Too expensive in my book. I had a Bulgarian gun built by Armory USA in TExas, awesome gun, was $500 new, out the door. If I could find one, I'd buy it again. Right now, I'm a big fanof the InterOrdnance AK that I have. New US receiver and barrel and has proven to be very accurate for an AK and very reliable. I'm very happy with this one and don't plan on getting rid of it anytime soon. Good news is you can buy one right now as they still make them.

ifit
February 16, 2012, 05:54 AM
30-06, basically talkin aks not helicopters drill bits and such. until such time anybody ever decides to cut up their "best" ak47 and chinese aks to actually do a metallurgy tests, i think of them all the same, sorry

JustinJ
February 16, 2012, 09:46 AM
I don't have it in front of me but in an article i read with Krebs he said something to the effect that the Bulgarian and Russian are the best quality. At home conversions are fun and all but unless you have the tools to properly install the rivets i say go with an Arsenal if you want the best AK possible.

M&M LLC
February 16, 2012, 10:53 AM
Hey guys, just a heads up....we have been slammed with orders in the last month and we are doing our very best to keep up with the demand since SHOT SHOW. Shipments to our distruibutors are enroute.

However, if you have any difficultly locating one of our rifles, please give us a call or PM me, (I'll send you my contact info) and I will do my very best to get you in touch with a distributor that has them in inventory.

Tim

Scott Farkus
February 16, 2012, 01:48 PM
Can somebody explain to an AK noob exactly what is meant when y'all talk about "converting" these things? I've tried to research it but I'm very confused. Thanks!

Ranger30-06
February 16, 2012, 02:23 PM
Scott, converting a Saiga AK is the process of drilling out the Rivets and removing the old trigger system and moving it forward and replacing the parts with new ones. (Specifically the trigger/sear and trigger guard). It also adds a pistol grip to the rifle and puts the balance of the rifle back to how it originally should be.

For example: Here is a stock Saiga as you would pick it up from the store:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=159175&stc=1&d=1329416245

After conversion, it would look like this:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=157095&d=1326849175

*Stock coloring and Fire/Safe coloring are extra steps!*
Notice how the trigger is moved closer to the magazine release and such? It also shortens the gun by ~4" and thus a LOT more handy. There are usually kits that you buy ranging from $130+ and they include everything you need parts wise, as well as countless Youtube videos on how to do the conversion. Tool wise, you just need a drill with some *very* good bits, and a file. It took me about 3 hours, which seems to be the average time that it takes to convert.

Girodin
February 16, 2012, 02:35 PM
The only ones that pretty much have a universal "stay away" vibe are the Century AK's (sic).

I would change that in a couple ways. Personally I would never buy an IO inc. AK. More to the point though, I would change your statement to say "century assembled AKs. The Draco pistol for example is a century AK but is simply imported by them. I also don't think century AKs deserve a universal stay away from advisory. Rather they probably should be inspected for certain issues. Barring those they tend to be servicable for things AKs are typically intended for.

Can somebody explain to an AK noob exactly what is meant when y'all talk about "converting" these things? I've tried to research it but I'm very confused. Thanks!

Converting in reference to saigas is short hand for "pistol grip conversion." What is being refered to is changing the weapon from the "sporter" configuration to a pistol grip configuration. This involves replacing the funky wishbone FCG linkage with a standard semi auto AK fire control group, which moves the trigger forward to the normal location.

People may also make other modifications as part of a "conversion" such as replacing the hand guards, changing gas and/or sight blocks, threading the barrel, etc.

If you search You tube for saiga conversion there are videos of the process.

Dollar for dollar a converted saiga will tend to be the most functional gun. This is because it starts with quality base parts and you can choose the parts and build it from the ground up to best suit your individual needs. If one wants to clone the look of a particular AK variant then Arsenals may be the better buy. I personally still wouldn't buy from that company though.

At $300 saigas are hard to beat for AKs. The draco used to be a real good buy, for those who could SBR it, back when you could have one in hand for $350 now that one would be hard pressed to get one in hand for less than about $470 it is not as good of a value but still a better value than most other SBR aks.

JustinJ
February 16, 2012, 03:23 PM
I also don't think century AKs deserve a universal stay away from advisory. Rather they probably should be inspected for certain issues.

Having to inspect a product for certain issues seems to be an indicator one should stay away from it.

Dracos may not be made by Century but i'm not that impressed anyways. I had to enlarge the mag well on mine to get ANY ak mags to fit. On top of that they don't exactly scream "quality" when handled.

Girodin
February 16, 2012, 03:39 PM
Having to inspect a product for certain issues seems to be an indicator one should stay away from it.

Then one should stay away from saiga too. I got one of those with canted sights (bought sight unseen). I've also seen arsenals with canted sights and finish problems. Given the choice I wouldn't buy any gun without knowing what issues they are prone to and looking it over for them. There are a lot of guns I would not buy sight unseen. That is very different from saying that I would per se not own them.

I would agree that on a whole romanian AKs tend to not be as nice in terms of fit and finish as the russian guns I've encountered. FWIW you are the only person I have ever even read about having that issue with a Draco. I've had a couple and like all makes of AKs they are built with lose tolerances and you get variations in them. I had one the dust cover fit rather tightly and I had to bend it to make it go on and off normally. I had the same issue with of my saigas.

I'm yet to handle any AK that really screams quality, arsenals and the like included. Aks are what they are. Stamped lose rough and tumble guns. Of course there is a spectrum of fit and finish but barring serious functional issues they all go bang and offer combat accuracy at ranges within the limitations of the cartridges they fire.

wildchild2010
February 16, 2012, 03:44 PM
Yugo M70B1 AK-47 are they any good, they use to be for sale every where at one time.

JustinJ
February 16, 2012, 03:58 PM
Then one should stay away from saiga too. I got one of those with canted sights (bought sight unseen). I've also seen arsenals with canted sights and finish problems. Given the choice I wouldn't buy any gun without knowing what issues they are prone to and looking it over for them. There are a lot of guns I would not buy sight unseen. That is very different from saying that I would per se not own them.

Of course any product can potentially have a few defective samples leave the factory. That is however different from a laundry list of common problems. Also, i've seen two century AKs trigger pins walk out after less than 100 rounds. I don't know if this was a fluke or a common problem with them but if it is i'm not sure one can identify this problem with a visual inspection.

Arsenals scream quality if you handle one right after a Century.

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 16, 2012, 04:00 PM
Does anyone have any experience with Interarms?

Rob G
February 16, 2012, 04:22 PM
The only ones that pretty much have a universal "stay away" vibe are the Century AK's.

I'm not sure I'd 100% agree on that. I've probably talked to an equal number of people who loved and hated Century AKs. My only real problems are the lack of a chrome lined barrel in certain models, which is really a personal preference, and the cheap furniture they tend to use. Mostly though I've heard that they're about as reliable and accurate as any other AK.

Yugo M70B1 AK-47 are they any good, they use to be for sale every where at one time.

If you can find an original Yugo M70B1 and not a clone then yes, they're awesome. If you're buying a cheap imitation (there are a lot out there) then no, not that awesome.

I'm yet to handle any AK that really screams quality

I'm a little confused by this statement. Do you mean you've never handled a well made one? Or do you mean quality as in "it's an overall simple design?"

Scott Farkus
February 16, 2012, 10:53 PM
Scott, converting a Saiga AK is the process of drilling out the Rivets and removing the old trigger system and moving it forward and replacing the parts with new ones. (Specifically the trigger/sear and trigger guard). It also adds a pistol grip to the rifle and puts the balance of the rifle back to how it originally should be.

For example: Here is a stock Saiga as you would pick it up from the store:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=159175&stc=1&d=1329416245

After conversion, it would look like this:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=157095&d=1326849175

*Stock coloring and Fire/Safe coloring are extra steps!*
Notice how the trigger is moved closer to the magazine release and such? It also shortens the gun by ~4" and thus a LOT more handy. There are usually kits that you buy ranging from $130+ and they include everything you need parts wise, as well as countless Youtube videos on how to do the conversion. Tool wise, you just need a drill with some *very* good bits, and a file. It took me about 3 hours, which seems to be the average time that it takes to convert.
Ahhh... that makes sense. (your first picture isn't working but I found an example on line).

If you don't mind another noob question, is there a way to convert a Saiga to a wooden stock and forends, so that it looks more like the WASR's? I did some googling but nothing seems to be turning up.

Also, what do people mean when they talk about conversion in the context of 922r? I know it has something to do with BATF compliance but I don't understand who is supposed to do this (the dealer or the buyer?) and when it needs to be done.

Ranger30-06
February 16, 2012, 11:15 PM
Ahhh... that makes sense. (your first picture isn't working but I found an example on line).

If you don't mind another noob question, is there a way to convert a Saiga to a wooden stock and forends, so that it looks more like the WASR's? I did some googling but nothing seems to be turning up.

Also, what do people mean when they talk about conversion in the context of 922r? I know it has something to do with BATF compliance but I don't understand who is supposed to do this (the dealer or the buyer?) and when it needs to be done.

For the stock and the grip, you can put normal wood AK furniture on. The forend however is much different, but I believe there is an adapter that allows the use of normal AK forends.

As for 922r, you are responsible for the compliance. If you want the gun any other way than stock or want to use any American mags, you must switch out so many parts to be American parts. This calculator will tell you how many parts need to be changed out to be legal. 922r Calculator (http://jobson.us/922r/) Pretty much, stock it ok. Otherwise, you need to switch out 5 foreign parts with US made parts, as well as using a US made pistol grip. Take a look at the link I gave you; It's pretty straightforward to use. Keep in mind too, that the magazine counts as 3 parts. Hope this helps!

RhodesianRLI
February 17, 2012, 12:22 AM
Well considering the fact that the Russians created the AK family, I'm pretty sure they know how to make it the best.

As for the steel, Russian steel is noticeably harder than Chinese, and even American. The Chinese recycle their steel to the point that it loses its tensile strength, and when you compare Chinese steel to other steel such as Russian or American steel, it's easily noticeable. Ever notice why cheap Chinese drill bits won't cut through new American steel? Because they're too soft. On the contrary, I had to buy an $80 set of top of the line drill bits to drill through the steel on my Saiga (Russian steel) when I was converting it.

The Norinco 1911 slides were made out of extremely hard metal, much harder than US made 1911s or any 1911.

I cant speak for the steel quality of a Norinco AK, but I can say that Norinco AKs are very nice AKs

Girodin
February 17, 2012, 02:35 AM
Do you mean you've never handled a well made one? Or do you mean quality as in "it's an overall simple design?"

More to the latter. AKs are cheap stamped guns. None of them are that nice compared to a huge swath of guns out there. I love AKs and would have to stop and count to tell you how many of them I own. That said they are simple crude guns and that what makes them great.

The forend however is much different, but I believe there is an adapter that allows the use of normal AK forends.

You need a hand guard retainer, like any other AK. You can get bolt on ones that do not require pressing off the front sight. You also need a new gas tube.

you need to switch out 5 foreign parts with US made parts,

A saiga rifle has 14 countable parts. 922r and the regulations relating to it require that one have 10 or fewer foreign countable parts. That means one need only remove (and presumably replace) 4 countable parts provided no other countable foreign parts are added, say a pistol grip. Use a US FCG, US stock and US PG and you are there. I would not suggest relying on magazines for compliance for a number of reasons.

As for 922r, you are responsible for the compliance.

The law proscribes "assembling" certain configurations of weapons out of foreign parts. So the law applies to the person who does the illegal assembly. Before you believe that this means you can just buy a non compliant gun and be scott free, it is important to remember that there is an argument (and at various times the ATF has taken the this position) that putting the magazine in the gun counts as assembling. This is not settled law. It is anyone's guess how the ATF will decide to interpret the law at any given time. It is also anyone's guess how a court would rule on the matter. Personally I actually find that argument fairly compelling from a statutory construction stand point. The reason I say that is because magazines are countable parts (3 in fact) and they are designed to regularly be removed and inserted.

Rob G
February 17, 2012, 02:38 AM
As for 922r, you are responsible for the compliance. If you want the gun any other way than stock or want to use any American mags, you must switch out so many parts to be American parts.

Close, it's actually not using American mags that's the problem. It's using high capacity mags. Using American mags actually solves part of the problem since they count as at least two, and I think possibly three compliance parts.

If you don't mind another noob question, is there a way to convert a Saiga to a wooden stock and forends, so that it looks more like the WASR's? I did some googling but nothing seems to be turning up.

Yes, there's a retainer that has to be added to the rifle to hold a standard AK lower handguard but once it's on there you can install any standard size AK furniture you want. Poly, wood, whatever you'd like it should fit.

Also, what do people mean when they talk about conversion in the context of 922r? I know it has something to do with BATF compliance but I don't understand who is supposed to do this (the dealer or the buyer?) and when it needs to be done.

Basically unless you want to convert the weapon in to a standard AK format and use hi-cap mags then you don't need to worry about 922r. As for who does it, according to the BATFE it's whoever "assembles" the weapon. So actually it's the manufacturer, at least initially. However there's a letter floating around somewhere that somebody got from the BATFE clarifying the point in which the BATFE basically states that they consider "assembling" to be anything other than removing or replacing parts for cleaning or maintenance. So basically as far as they're concerned once the buyer starts swapping and/or modifying parts you're now "assembling" the weapon and must be 922r compliant. Of course I don't think anyone's ever been charged with violating it but it's easy enough to follow that I just go along with it personally.

[Edit] Girodin must have been posting at the same time I was. His comment about 922r is something I've also heard before and it does seem to have some merit.

skipbo32
February 17, 2012, 02:44 AM
what do ya'll think of the Tantal AK74s? i hear they are pretty solid AKs.

Rob G
February 17, 2012, 03:02 AM
what do ya'll think of the Tantal AK74s? i hear they are pretty solid AKs.

Depends on who assembled them. Tantals are basically just a Polish variation on the '74. If they're assembled right then they'll be as accurate and reliable as any other AK. If they're not, well then they won't be. I do like the style though.

Most Tantals out there at the moment are Century Arms guns and from what I understand they're a little hit or miss on quality but generally in good shape. If I was looking for a Tantal though I think I'd invest the extra time and money in to finding a kit and having someone build it for me.

Ranger30-06
February 17, 2012, 09:51 AM
The Norinco 1911 slides were made out of extremely hard metal, much harder than US made 1911s or any 1911.

I cant speak for the steel quality of a Norinco AK, but I can say that Norinco AKs are very nice AKs

I'd believe it, because they were being made for an extremely strict market as far as quality went and everyone knows that a crap 1911 just won't make it.

The Norincos are different in the sense that they were built for themselves, for their disposable army. They could give a crap on how well the weapon is built, just as long as the rifle lasts as long as the soldier lives.

The main reason people like the Norincos is because they tend to be a little more accurate than other AK's. Why? Because of the softer barrel. It's the same reason stainless steel and non-chrome lines AR-15 barrels are more accurate than military type barrels. They aren't as hard, therefore the accuracy is increased to an extent.

sturmgewehr
February 17, 2012, 10:48 AM
I've always found it interesting that someone would pay $1,200 for a good AR but won't pay $800 for a good AK.

People have it in their heads AK's should be dirt cheap, even if they have properly made and fitted parts and a good finish.

Yo Mama
February 17, 2012, 10:58 AM
The only ones that pretty much have a universal "stay away" vibe are the Century AK's.

Yeah, they suck so bad I love mine! Had to take offense, maybe you never owned one, but Century has a great rep, and great products.

JustinJ
February 17, 2012, 11:08 AM
Yeah, they suck so bad I love mine! Had to take offense, maybe you never owned one, but Century has a great rep, and great products.

No, Century does not have great rep. The quality of their products generally depends on wether or not they build them. I've owned two century AKs and after my first Arsenal i'll never look back. Just because a company has poor assembly methods and quality control does not mean every single one of their products will fail. In fact the large majority probably won't. But to be a quality company with good QC it should be an extremely small number that do.

Rob G
February 17, 2012, 02:03 PM
I've always found it interesting that someone would pay $1,200 for a good AR but won't pay $800 for a good AK.

People have it in their heads AK's should be dirt cheap, even if they have properly made and fitted parts and a good finish.

I'd have to agree with this completely sturmgewehr. I definitely do not regret the money I spent on my SGL31. Although I do wish they were still $400 rifles so that I could have bought two. :D

Girodin
February 17, 2012, 04:05 PM
but Century has a great rep,

I don't know that I would say that. They have a rep for hit and miss quality. With respect to certain models they have a reputation they earned for butchering them in the assembly process. Their Tantals with the wrong size bore and their grind to fit approach to CETME bolts are two prominent examples of their spotty reputation that they earned.

Yo Mama
February 17, 2012, 06:19 PM
I've owned two century AKs and after my first Arsenal i'll never look back.

And if I could afford a BMW I'd never drive my Hyundia again. I hear your point, but it's apples to oranges.

1fromtheparapet
February 18, 2012, 08:09 AM
My vote would go to the Cugir M10-762 that is currently being imported by M&M Inc. They are built on all new Romanian parts and I have been extremely impressed with mine so far. I would say they are easily on par with a Saiga when it comes to build quality and certainly better than any Century Arms AK.

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/M10-762/M10-762-1.jpg

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/M10-762/M10-762-2.jpg
Picking up my new Cugir M10-762 in a couple hours. Have a big bag full of surplus non-corrosive 7.62x39 and greatly looking forward to heading club-bound after a quick check over of the gun. You know, big dumb male with a new toy :D Even at my age. Just plain itching. Bringing the black 870 and a bunch of slugs and buckshot (and lots of bottles and cans of soda) to break up the monotony ;-] and a bag full of mags for the G19 to finish off from 20yds anything I miss from 150. I can just tell it’s gonna be a good day...

Ranger30-06
February 18, 2012, 10:47 AM
Picking up my new Cugir M10-762 in a couple hours. Have a big bag full of surplus non-corrosive 7.62x39 and greatly looking forward to heading club-bound after a quick check over of the gun. You know, big dumb male with a new toy :D Even at my age. Just plain itching. Bringing the black 870 and a bunch of slugs and buckshot (and lots of bottles and cans of soda) to break up the monotony ;-] and a bag full of mags for the G19 to finish off from 20yds anything I miss from 150. I can just tell it’s gonna be a good day...
Make sure you take some pics and let us know how it works out!

ifit
February 18, 2012, 04:46 PM
i would say you made a good choice over the saiga, congrats.

Scott Farkus
February 18, 2012, 09:14 PM
For the stock and the grip, you can put normal wood AK furniture on. The forend however is much different, but I believe there is an adapter that allows the use of normal AK forends.

As for 922r, you are responsible for the compliance. If you want the gun any other way than stock or want to use any American mags, you must switch out so many parts to be American parts. This calculator will tell you how many parts need to be changed out to be legal. 922r Calculator (http://jobson.us/922r/) Pretty much, stock it ok. Otherwise, you need to switch out 5 foreign parts with US made parts, as well as using a US made pistol grip. Take a look at the link I gave you; It's pretty straightforward to use. Keep in mind too, that the magazine counts as 3 parts. Hope this helps!
OK, now I'm confused again.

Let's say I go to my LGS or one of the reputable on-line dealers and buy a WASR (since that's the look I like). I can assume it's 922r compliant, right? I don't need to do anything else to it, right?

I don't understand what you mean about using American magazines. If I buy extra magazines and they are made in America, I have to change out other parts? That doesn't make sense. I could understand (but not necessarily agree with) the logic if I was to buy a non-American magazine. What am I missing?

Ranger30-06
February 18, 2012, 10:45 PM
OK, now I'm confused again.

Let's say I go to my LGS or one of the reputable on-line dealers and buy a WASR (since that's the look I like). I can assume it's 922r compliant, right? I don't need to do anything else to it, right?

I don't understand what you mean about using American magazines. If I buy extra magazines and they are made in America, I have to change out other parts? That doesn't make sense. I could understand (but not necessarily agree with) the logic if I was to buy a non-American magazine. What am I missing?

The WASR is already compliant when you buy it from the store, because another company converts it when it comes into the country (it already has American parts in it).


Magazines count as 3 compliance parts when inserted. Therefore, if it's a foreign magazine, it would be 3 parts against the rifles compliance, however with an American magazine, it counts as 3 parts towards 922r compliance.
This is important for some people because sometimes they only switch out a couple parts, then use American mags to make their rifle compliant. In this case, using foreign mags would cause the American-made parts count to drop to low, and make the rifle non compliant.


The WASR is set up so that you can use either foreign mags or American mags and still be legal, so no worries there.


Now here's the kicker for the last part of your question. If you were to buy a Saiga (100% Russian) and put an American magazine into it (3 American parts), you would have an illegal gun.

The reason WHY it would be illegal is because since you aren't using 100% foreign parts on your gun, you also don't have enough American parts on the gun to compensate for the mags. Basically in a nutshell, the gun either needs to be:

A) 100% Foreign
B) Less than 10 Foreign parts

Having a gun with 11 foreign and 5 American parts is illegal.
Having a gun with 300 foreign and 1 American parts is illegal.
Having a gun with 10, 9, 8, 7... foreign parts and 1, 2, 3, 4+ American parts is LEGAL, BECAUSE its less than 10 foreign plus additional American parts.



And you wonder where all of your taxpayer money goes :D

RockyMtnTactical
February 18, 2012, 11:50 PM
lots of good ones. I like Arsenals.

Scott Farkus
February 19, 2012, 12:09 AM
Now here's the kicker for the last part of your question. If you were to buy a Saiga (100% Russian) and put an American magazine into it (3 American parts), you would have an illegal gun.

The reason WHY it would be illegal is because since you aren't using 100% foreign parts on your gun, you also don't have enough American parts on the gun to compensate for the mags. Basically in a nutshell, the gun either needs to be:

A) 100% Foreign
B) Less than 10 Foreign parts

Thank you, thank you, thank you! THAT'S the part I was missing. Now it makes sense.

But good grief, that's just ridiculous.

Now, dare I ask who checks these things? I do virtually all of my shooting on my private property. Do state game wardens have authority over something like this?

Girodin
February 19, 2012, 12:59 AM
In this case, using foreign mags would cause the American-made parts count to (sic) drop to low, and make the rifle non compliant.

To be technically correct using foreign mags makes the foreign part count to high. The loss of thee use parts in and of itself it a total non issue. The addition of 3 foreign parts that takes you over the limit of ten is the problem.

Now here's the kicker for the last part of your question. If you were to buy a Saiga (100% Russian) and put an American magazine into it (3 American parts), you would have an illegal gun.

The graveman is not whether the magazine is US made or not. It is a matter of how many rounds that magazine holds. A US 10 round mag would not be an issue. A foreign 30 round magazine would be.

B) Less than 10 Foreign parts

Also, it is not less than 10 foreign [countable] parts, it is not more than 10. Said another way it is 10 or less.

Now, dare I ask who checks these things? I do virtually all of my shooting on my private property. Do state game wardens have authority over something like this?

This is a an issue that has been discussed at length else where. There has been at least one 922r conviction I am aware of, a case out of Indiana. The fourth amendment would limit in many circumstances law enforcement's ability to come check you gun for compliance. However, considering it is a felony and it costs so little and is so easy to have a compliant gun, there is IMHO no reason not to just have it be compliant. Cost of a compliant gun, maybe a $150. Cost of defending even a relatively simple misdemeanor charge can be $4-5 just to take it through preliminary matters and to an appeal. A trial could run you $10K easy. A felony trial could be $50K and more complicated ones go to six figures quickly. Cost of conviction, possible incarceration, fines, confiscation of the weapon, attorneys fees, etc. Even if the likely hood of conviction is low the risk versus reward is so skewed it only makes sense to comply.

Yes it is a very stupid, non-nonsensical law that does nothing to serve public safety but it is still the law.

Ignition Override
February 19, 2012, 03:27 AM
Girodin:
The fact that Century was quite aware that many Polish AK-74 Tantals had the wrong size bore-5.56 instead of 5.45-and also that many people had serious problems with their CETMEs from them, really said something.

I read the detailed description of "Sturmgewehr"s problems and those of dozens of other Century customers who bought a 74 or "G-3" CETMEs.

The almost unbelievable normal business operating policies at Century (whether previous or present doesn't matter): their attempts/actions to deceive and cheat large numbers of their customers led to my resolve to instead, buy a Garand from the CMP (instead of a random CETME), and to never even consider Any semi-auto assembled by Century (contractors or not).

To have a reliable military-style carbine in 7.62 NATO/.308, the Spanish FR8 does the job quite well, and the sights are almost identical to those on the CETME "G-3". The ammo used in the FR8 is easy to reload and very durable.

el Godfather
February 19, 2012, 03:52 AM
SAKO.

briansmithwins
February 19, 2012, 07:06 AM
The main reason people like the Norincos is because they tend to be a little more accurate than other AK's. Why? Because of the softer barrel. It's the same reason stainless steel and non-chrome lines AR-15 barrels are more accurate than military type barrels. They aren't as hard, therefore the accuracy is increased to an extent.

What?

That's the first time I've ever heard that idea.

I think people get wrapped up in the whole 'harder steel is better steel' idea, which is just plain wrong on many levels.

Barrel steel is actually pretty soft, exactly as it needs to be. Barrel steel trades hardness for toughness, or the ability to resist cracking. Each time you fire a cartridge, the 50,000PSI gas expands that chamber, trying to rupture it. There are always microcracks in the steel, giving stress a place to concentrate and tear the metal.

Since barrel steel is tough and not hard, it expands elastically with the pressure and shrinks back down as the pressure drops. A file hard barrel might hold together for a few rounds but would likely catastrophically fail during firing. Exactly as happened to the '03 Springfields that had their receivers heat treated wrong.

The Sov (and by extension the chicoms) have historically used soft steels in highly stressed parts in their armaments. This allowed them so have parts that deform under stress but that are tough enough never to crack and fail catastrophically. All without using expensive, hard to heat treat steels, like the Germans and Americans have favored.

Read up on the heat treatments required for a K98k Mauser and M14 rifle sometime. The specs for the heat treatment of those steels are exacting and meticulous.

BSW

Ranger30-06
February 19, 2012, 12:08 PM
What?

That's the first time I've ever heard that idea.

I think people get wrapped up in the whole 'harder steel is better steel' idea, which is just plain wrong on many levels.

Barrel steel is actually pretty soft, exactly as it needs to be. Barrel steel trades hardness for toughness, or the ability to resist cracking. Each time you fire a cartridge, the 50,000PSI gas expands that chamber, trying to rupture it. There are always microcracks in the steel, giving stress a place to concentrate and tear the metal.

Since barrel steel is tough and not hard, it expands elastically with the pressure and shrinks back down as the pressure drops. A file hard barrel might hold together for a few rounds but would likely catastrophically fail during firing. Exactly as happened to the '03 Springfields that had their receivers heat treated wrong.

The Sov (and by extension the chicoms) have historically used soft steels in highly stressed parts in their armaments. This allowed them so have parts that deform under stress but that are tough enough never to crack and fail catastrophically. All without using expensive, hard to heat treat steels, like the Germans and Americans have favored.

Read up on the heat treatments required for a K98k Mauser and M14 rifle sometime. The specs for the heat treatment of those steels are exacting and meticulous.

BSW

My friend, it's not that "harder steel is better" is the problem. The problem is that the the Chinese steel tends to be inconsistent as far as hardness goes and many times it's just straight out too soft. Way to frequently Chinese steel has hard patches and soft sections. Talk to THR member Bubbles, who builds guns, and she will tell you the same exact thing.

Yes, it's true that the other side of the spectrum causes other problems, but that's another discussion not really for this thread. I also realize that in comparison to other steels, barrel steel is relatively soft. The difference between what I'm saying and your saying is that I'm comparing barrels to barrels, while your comparing barrel steel to other steel.

As far as your comment on Russian steel being soft, that sure could be semi-true for the barrels, but there is no way on earth you can prove that a Russian AK (minus the barrel) uses as soft or softer steel than a Chinese AK. It's just not true, because the Russians continually manufacture new steel, whereas the Chinese recycle theirs over and over and over again, causing loss of strength each time.

Circle 10 AK
February 19, 2012, 07:17 PM
I've always like the Waffen Werks AKs. 650 for a 74 from Atlantic. Built on a NDS receiver. Fit and finish is excellent.

Rob G
February 20, 2012, 03:44 AM
I just wanted to correct something that I saw a little earlier in the thread about 922r

The reason WHY it would be illegal is because since you aren't using 100% foreign parts on your gun, you also don't have enough American parts on the gun to compensate for the mags. Basically in a nutshell, the gun either needs to be:

A) 100% Foreign
B) Less than 10 Foreign parts


Even if the gun was 100% foreign it would still be illegal if it had a magazine that held more than ten rounds, a pistol grip, a folding buttstock, or a muzzle device of some kind. If it has any of these features then it must have no more than 10 foreign made parts off of the 922r compliance list.

Those parts are:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Butt stocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, hand guards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

The ones in bold are the parts that AKs typically have.

So in order to use high cap mags, have a pistol grip, etc. you would have to take your AK and remove six of the bold faced parts listed above and replace them with American made ones. I don't know what all the manufactures do but I know that Arsenal replaces: the muzzle attachment, trigger, hammer, disconnector, buttstock, pistol grip, and forearm stock with American made parts which brings their rifle down to 9 foreign made parts making it 922r compliant. It also allows you to use foreign made mags in it.

In the case of a WASR they replace the following parts with american made ones: trigger, hammer, disconnector, pistol grip, gas piston, and muzzle break (if it has one) which brings the foreign parts count to 10, which is legal. It would also allow you to use foreign made mags.

Girodin
February 20, 2012, 12:19 PM
When we are talking about saiga rifles they do not come with some of the bolded parts above. They do not have a pistol grip nor a muzzle attachment. That is why I stated above that they have 14 countable parts.

Mike1234567
February 20, 2012, 01:58 PM
Rob G is right...

Most Saiga firearms need only have 4 foreign parts replaced and 3 of them are in American-made magazines. I believe there are 1 or 2 Saigas that need a 5th part replaced but I can't remember which one(s). If you wish to use foreign-made mags then you'll have to swap 3 more parts in the firearm itself.

Rob G
February 20, 2012, 02:10 PM
When we are talking about saiga rifles they do not come with some of the bolded parts above. They do not have a pistol grip nor a muzzle attachment. That is why I stated above that they have 14 countable parts.

Very true. I wasn't actually offering my comment in response to your post but one that came in before that. I actually found nothing wrong in your post.

As an intersting aside since you mentioned the Saigas, the parts count on them is actually a little weird. Obviously they don't have the pistol grip so -1 part. And none have a muzzle attachment so -1 part. However they do apparently have a sear, I'm guessing it's part of that funky FCG they put in when they move the trigger, so +1 part.

It's not surprising that this 922r stuff is so frustrating right?

Girodin
February 20, 2012, 04:22 PM
Very true. I wasn't actually offering my comment in response to your post . . .

No I didn't think you were. I just figured I would offer some preemptive clarification for anyone reading who might not be as familiar with Aks/saigas. I've read enough 922r threads to know that it can be confusing.

I believe there are 1 or 2 Saigas that need a 5th part replaced but I can't remember which one(s).

Well purportedly the ATF has relatively recently decided to change their count on Saiga shotguns. Also for some time people have debated whether the thread protector is a muzzle attachment. The plus side is that most folks are using US mags on S12s (I wouldn't count on US mags for compliance on most of the rifles, particularly not the x39 guns). Now mind you that a letter like the one in the link posted is not the law but merely how the BATF is choosing to interpret the law at that moment. That is part of why they change.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/72849-parts-count-for-saiga-12-has-changed/

Mike1234567
February 20, 2012, 07:45 PM
^^^ Why wouldn't you count the USA-made parts in the rifle mags? That's three foreign parts out of the equation.

charvel
February 20, 2012, 08:22 PM
I bought a tantal sporter by century arms ak-74 5.39 with side folding stock
it has the usual fire and safe lever but on the other side of the rifle there is a sellection lever C.P.S. it looks like they redrilled the pin and moved the selector switch and repined it. How much of a change did they make on this rifle. and was it at one time full auto and 3 burst.

Rob G
February 21, 2012, 02:17 AM
^^^ Why wouldn't you count the USA-made parts in the rifle mags? That's three foreign parts out of the equation.

I can think of two reasons.

#1 Most of the AK mags out there are foreign made. By using the mags for compliance you're really cutting down on the availablity of mags for your gun.

#2 US made AK mags are not nearly as good as foreign made ones. For starters I don't think I've seen a US made mag yet that had a metal locking lug. This is really important on an AK mag. I've seen lots of tapco and pmags at the range with the plastic locking lug snapped off. They don't tend to work well after that.

I guess what I'm saying is I've never seen an AK with a US made stock set, fcg, muzzle break, etc. have functioning issues related to those parts. But I've seen a lot of AKs with US made mags that just didn't want to run right.

Girodin
February 21, 2012, 05:05 AM
I wrote "wouldn't count on", not "wouldn't count." I could have used a better word choice I suppose, such as rely on. What I mean is I would not rely on having to use US mags for compliance. One could do it and be legal, however, one is severely limiting what mags can be used and is precluding both the best available mags (IMHO) as well as the most economical mags that are still really worth having. About the only decent US mag is US palms and they are $30 ish. I personally believe that Bulgarian waffle circle 10 mags are better than the US palm mags and if I was going to pay around $30 it would be for those. One can get quality foreign steel mags for $10.

1fromtheparapet
February 21, 2012, 09:21 AM
Only took 1 picture. Sorry. New toy and bag full of ammo. One track mind. This is new right out of the box after 60 or 90 rounds, letting the barrel chill out a bit. Picked it up, basic function check, and drove straight to the club. Haven't fired a military platform rifle of any kind (save my old Springfield Trapdoor;)) since M16 training in basic in '76—I really liked that weapon but got away from firearms for a while. IMHO the M10-762 was very tight with smooth operation. Popping 12oz soda cans at 100yds+ open sighted after one mag and I'm really not all that good. Had a couple cases and a bunch of 2liters, too. Needed neither the 870 nor the Glock for close up clean up for what I missed—got 'em all!
Yup, I like it. I want more...

Ranger30-06
February 21, 2012, 09:28 AM
Only took 1 picture. Sorry. New toy and bag full of ammo. One track mind. This is new right out of the box after 60 or 90 rounds, letting the barrel chill out a bit. Picked it up, basic function check, and drove straight to the club. Haven't fired a military platform rifle of any kind (save my old Springfield Trapdoor;)) since M16 training in basic in '76—I really liked that weapon but got away from firearms for a while. IMHO the M10-762 was very tight with smooth operation. Popping 12oz soda cans at 100yds+ open sighted after one mag and I'm really not all that good. Had a couple cases and a bunch of 2liters, too. Needed neither the 870 nor the Glock for close up clean up for what I missed—got 'em all!
Yup, I like it. I want more...

That is fantastic my friend! At least you see the real accuracy measure in your shooting: minute-of-bad-guy! Have fun with your new lifelong friend and get good with it! When you do, go try some 3-gun competitions; you'll drive a couple "AR's only" guys nuts :neener:

1fromtheparapet
February 21, 2012, 10:27 AM
THANKS! The little club I joined last year holds a 3-gun about every other month. I'll tell 'em you sent me:D

1fromtheparapet
February 21, 2012, 12:08 PM
And I like the MOBG method of measurement

Sam Cade
February 21, 2012, 01:37 PM
I bought a tantal sporter by century arms ak-74 5.39 with side folding stock
it has the usual fire and safe lever but on the other side of the rifle there is a selection lever C.P.S. it looks like they redrilled the pin and moved the selector switch and repined it.

That is normal. Tantals have a left side thumb selector to counter the terrible control location on a standard AK.

I'm not sure how century jiggers them to work.


and was it at one time full auto and 3 burst.

No. It was originally built in a semi-auto configuration.

1fromtheparapet
February 21, 2012, 01:42 PM
And thanks again nwilliams for the good word on the M10-762. I LIKE it.

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 21, 2012, 01:54 PM
That is fantastic my friend! At least you see the real accuracy measure in your shooting: minute-of-bad-guy! Have fun with your new lifelong friend and get good with it! When you do, go try some 3-gun competitions; you'll drive a couple "AR's only" guys nuts

It's not the accuracy that bogs down AKs in 3 gun as they are certainly good enough but the controls are slower to use. How many professional competitors that are world champions use AKs? How many use ARs?

1fromtheparapet
February 21, 2012, 02:11 PM
It's not the accuracy that bogs down AKs in 3 gun as they are certainly good enough but the controls are slower to use. How many professional competitors that are world champions use AKs? How many use ARs?
Too many university tuition bills and wedding(s) to finance yet to spring for all the world champ fixin’s ;) I'll settle for weekend warrior and disaster preparedness status and leave the gold medals for y’all!

ifit
February 21, 2012, 04:10 PM
1fromtheparapet congrats on an excellent choice over the saiga. just came from aimsurplus and they have sold out again for the 3rd time of the new m10, i must say m+m did a good job on puting together a rifle that we like a good price, thank god theres other good choices out there other than saiga/

heres my m10
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/048-2.jpg

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 23, 2012, 11:46 AM
Too many university tuition bills and wedding(s) to finance yet to spring for all the world champ fixin’s I'll settle for weekend warrior and disaster preparedness status and leave the gold medals for y’all!

You can build an AR 15 for less than $600 which is about the same price as a good AK.

Rob G
February 23, 2012, 11:56 AM
Too many university tuition bills and wedding(s) to finance yet to spring for all the world champ fixin’s

Subtract wedding(s) from that and you've got my situation as well. I feel you on the money thing.

You can build an AR 15 for less than $600 which is about the same price as a good AK.

Aww yes but can you feed it for the same price? I can buy 1080 round spam cans of 5.45 for my '74 for around $120+ shipping. The cheapest 5.56 I've seen recently was about $110+ shipping for 500 rounds and it was cheap steel cased stuff that sent 2 out of the 3 ARs we had at our last range day to the gunsmith to have the chambers pried open to extract jammed cases. ARs may have come down in price but the ammo's still up there.

69Rebel
February 23, 2012, 12:16 PM
#2 US made AK mags are not nearly as good as foreign made ones. For starters I don't think I've seen a US made mag yet that had a metal locking lug. This is really important on an AK mag. I've seen lots of tapco and pmags at the range with the plastic locking lug snapped off. They don't tend to work well after that.

I guess what I'm saying is I've never seen an AK with a US made stock set, fcg, muzzle break, etc. have functioning issues related to those parts. But I've seen a lot of AKs with US made mags that just didn't want to run right.

Yup. The mag is the heart of the AK and a big factor in it's reliability. If you don't have a reliable mag, you don't have a reliable gun. One caveat: if you can find US-made floorplates for AK mags, that counts.

1fromtheparapet
February 27, 2012, 08:24 AM
Yup. The mag is the heart of the AK and a big factor in it's reliability. If you don't have a reliable mag, you don't have a reliable gun. One caveat: if you can find US-made floorplates for AK mags, that counts.

(Actually meant as response to RobG but could figure out how to delete. But info on mags still good to know ;-])--

Just got back from a weekend visit of the one at campus and the wedding gown was just ordered for the other. It's pricey but all worth it. Just bought momma a new car and I picked up a low miles Crown Vic P71 at the local city rolling auction some months back. Hoping to exchange my faithful old leaky Caprice Classic for a few more shooting items before I give up the gun show ghost for a while :-]

1fromtheparapet
February 27, 2012, 08:37 AM
You can build an AR 15 for less than $600 which is about the same price as a good AK.
I've been hearing and seeing that lately as well the fact that they're easier to work on than I'd thought. And I do like the AR platform. Back in basic in the 70's I really fell in love with the M16. Still may get an AR someday. AR mods, tools, and accessories are quite numerous and varied but they are generally, though not always, pretty expensive. I just like the simplicity and durability of the AK. Actually, what I'd REALLY like is a SOCOM 16. That'll have to wait until the baby is finished college or grad school, some 3-4 years out yet (at least)!

1fromtheparapet
February 27, 2012, 08:56 AM
And yes, the "cuisine" issue was a factor, too! I like popping soda bottles just a tad more than working on MOA (and as has been said here, "Minute of Bad Guy" is a factor, too). That's why I favor the 9mm over the .45ACP and .40 S&W. I do love them all and shoot them but when I do my regular weekly volume it's a cheap date niner that gets the regular attention. Everyone has their own doctrines of inspiration, I guess, as well as bottom line requirements. Not always as much a better-and-worse thing as it is just difference of preference and priorities (and tax brackets). I love ‘em all—just can’t have ‘em all.

1fromtheparapet
February 28, 2012, 01:04 PM
1fromtheparapet congrats on an excellent choice over the saiga. just came from aimsurplus and they have sold out again for the 3rd time of the new m10, i must say m+m did a good job on puting together a rifle that we like a good price, thank god theres other good choices out there other than saiga/

heres my m10
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/kadiindo/048-2.jpg
Ifit, thanks. I like it and much satified with the decision so far. Yours is very pretty and looks a lot like an original AK. Tell me, does most of the standard AK stuff fit?

atti_mac
March 1, 2012, 03:42 PM
Where can I buy a Romy Variant like this?

1fromtheparapet
March 1, 2012, 09:24 PM
Where can I buy a Romy Variant like this?
IDK where you can get one nicely furnitured like the one pictured in my last post. Have wait for the owner, ifit, to answer that one. You can get the M10-762 from Classic Arms (dot com) for about 500 bucks. It's pretty nice and made from all new parts and materials. Looks like this:

atti_mac
March 1, 2012, 09:42 PM
Can you guys tell me what model is this AK?
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae342/Atti_Mac/036-3.jpg

Is it a folding M10-762? I only found a non folding one and I was wondering if I can convert it like this?

ifit
March 1, 2012, 10:43 PM
most ak furniture and accessories should fit, the bakelite upper and lower hg, i purchased from copes distributing, its originally bulgarian type furniture. just a heads up the lower hg fits fine, but the upper hg is so loose it gets really annoying, you may have to modify some how to fit snug.

atti mac, the model is called m+m inc. m10, they have the side folders/fixed stock. the sidefolders are gettin harder to come by as they are only so many imported as compared to the fixed stock. if you can find a sidefolder it should fit as long its for a stamped akm type rreceiver.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 2, 2012, 12:27 AM
Aww yes but can you feed it for the same price? I can buy 1080 round spam cans of 5.45 for my '74 for around $120+ shipping. The cheapest 5.56 I've seen recently was about $110+ shipping for 500 rounds and it was cheap steel cased stuff that sent 2 out of the 3 ARs we had at our last range day to the gunsmith to have the chambers pried open to extract jammed cases. ARs may have come down in price but the ammo's still up there.

I'm getting an AK 74 myself because of the cheap ammo but that's only with surplus ammo. New Manufacture Wolf Ammo is roughly the same price as .223 and 7.62 x 39. Some AR 15s just don't like Steel Cased ammo but my understanding is that AR 15s with mil spec chambers are fine.

Okiegunner
August 5, 2012, 02:39 AM
Hello guys,

Once upon a time (2009) before I lost my job (at the time), I owned an Arsenal SAM7-A1R, milled Bulgarian, from Kazanlak, Bulgaria, via Las Vegas.
I bought this rifle in 2005 for a little over $900.00. This rifle now sells for (actually, you can not purchase brand new now) for around $1800-$1900.

In the mean time (after I have gotten back on my feet), what I have purchased is the Waffen Werks AK, in 5.45 X 39. This is a really sweet AK variant.

Just my opinion...OK?? For those of you searching for "that AK" to buy, and do not want pay "Arsenal" prices.

You would be hard pressed to pass up the Waffen Werks "Bulgarian" product.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 5, 2012, 02:50 AM
Hello guys,

Once upon a time (2009) before I lost my job (at the time), I owned an Arsenal SAM7-A1R, milled Bulgarian, from Kazanlak, Bulgaria, via Las Vegas.
I bought this rifle in 2005 for a little over $900.00. This rifle now sells for (actually, you can not purchase brand new now) for around $1800-$1900.

In the mean time (after I have gotten back on my feet), what I have purchased is the Waffen Werks AK, in 5.45 X 39. This is a really sweet AK variant.

Just my opinion...OK?? For those of you searching for "that AK" to buy, and do not want pay "Arsenal" prices.

You would be hard pressed to pass up the Waffen Werks "Bulgarian" product.

Waffen Werks are a step down from Arsenal on the AK quality ladder. For the big players, I would say it goes. Arsenal, Waffen Werks, Interarms, Century, and lastly Inter Ordinance. I wanted a Waffen Werks but they were all back ordered so I settled on an Interarms Tantal. No complaints about it and I'm happy with my rifle.

Here's my Tantal in it's current configuration.
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r617/FIVETWOSEVENTHR/IMG_0327.jpg?t=1342671115

JShirley
August 5, 2012, 02:54 AM
I am really wanting an AK47, and i would love a saiga arsenal, but for the price of those, i might as well get a M-16

Fixed it for you. It's ludicrous to correctly identify the US-made rifle, but misidentify the Comblock one. If you're going to be inaccurate, might as well go all the way. :rolleyes:

John

Inebriated
August 5, 2012, 02:54 AM
Gotta agree with you there, 527.

Though I've never handled an IO, I have seen a lot of evidence regarding their... "quality".

Okiegunner
August 5, 2012, 03:07 AM
OP, I understand your question. There are many more on this forum who are much more in the know than me.

At one point in my life, I wanted (and did) buy the finest AK I could find. I bought an Arsenal SAM7-A1R milled. Wow!! Still regret the circumstances that arose for me to sell that rifle. I went thru a few years of financial uncertitude.

Long story short...I have recently purchased a "Waffen Werks" stamped reciever 74'.

Half the price of a current Arsenal, and a absolute beautiful rifle. Stamped as opposed to milled I know. Please trust me on this...With this rifle , you give up absolutely nothing, other than weight.

So... IMHO, the best AK on the market that is not a Saiga...

Is a high Quality build (your option here), based upon an equally high quality (un-issued) Bulgarian parts kit.

Gunner

JHenry
August 5, 2012, 03:58 AM
if at all possible avoid kit builds. Not all are bad but unless you can really inspect it before purchase there isnt anyway of knowing what your going to get.

IMO you want to find a gun that was imported with the ability to accept standard mags and has furniture options available.

Alot of older SLRs are this way along with mak-90s, early Maadi's etc.

If you dont mind losing the bayo lug and cleaning rod holders these are the best ways to go. all you have to do is replace the furniture and at max 2 other parts(1 if its milled i believe).

Ive been nothing but pleased with my Mak-90 although i did pay a premium price for it. But if you find something you really like dont be afraid to overpay a little, these older imports are getting harder to come by. It took me over a year to find my mak, and other than that the only other ak i described was an SLR-95 but it was out of my budget at the time(really wish it wouldnt of been).

Btw for your referance ironwood stock sets average around 160 minus hardware and theyre unfinished so be sure to factor that in if your planning on taking it back to a more original configuration

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 12, 2012, 02:22 AM
if at all possible avoid kit builds. Not all are bad but unless you can really inspect it before purchase there isnt anyway of knowing what your going to get.

Kit builds aren't bad if bought from a good manufacturer.

meanmrmustard
August 12, 2012, 08:51 AM
I was referring to the lower end Arsenals, as I was pretty sure at the time (and later confirmed) that the OP was trying to keep costs down. I was thinking about something like a SGL 21 with fixed stock etc. I've seen them going for around $700 (sometimes a bit less) locally. I wasn't aware that the Colts were going for that little though. I may have to look at picking one up soon...
They're not in my neck of the woods. Still over the grand mark for "gold" standard:rolleyes: Too many other rifles in that price range to warrant $1000+ on an AR.

I'd go $700-900 on an Arsenal, in a heart beat. But, they have some that'd make yer jaw drop upon seeing the price tag. Personally, not spending over a thousand dollars on an AR or AK ever again. I get yelled at by the old lady too much:cuss:

I'm thinking Polish, converted Saiga, or an AMD.

BearGriz
August 15, 2012, 02:29 PM
For all you that have tried out the M10-762:

I hear reports that the side mount is canted? Users report that their scope mounts are off bore to the right by about 1/4"

Is there a fix for this (like a mount that works with this gun)? This gun looks promising to me, but I probably will want to put a red dot on a mount.

Oh, and I already have a really nice AK (an Arsenal Bulgarian-made SLR-95), so I'm not looking for perfection...I just want a decent AK that I won't mind abusing by putting a Bumpski on it and running simulated full-auto.

Trueno
August 15, 2012, 03:33 PM
http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb390/AK_junky/milled/76bulgy488.jpg






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