Frustrated with trying to learn in NYC


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dgold0101
January 3, 2012, 11:35 PM
Hey Guys,

New to the forum, so I hope this post isn't redundant. I've decided this year that it's about time I finally learn how to properly use and take care of a gun, as it is a skill I consider necessary that I've put off learning for some time. I've been doing research about doing so, and I realize that in NYC it's a pain in the ass.

I'm looking to learn to how to use a handgun. I know I need to join a gun club, and for that I need a permit, but for the permit to work I need to purchase a hand gun within 72 hours? Is that correct?

Here's the thing. I do not feel that I can properly care for, or am responsible enough, to currently own a handgun. This is why I want to learn. I would be uncomfortable owning one as of now. Additionally, I do not really have the funds to purchase one. Or to take a really in depth gun class.

The one thing I have going for me is that a friend's father is a retired shooting instructor for the NYPD. He's willing to teach me, but I need to belong to a gun club for that to be legal.

Any advice? I have no idea how to proceed. I turn 30 exactly a year from now. I'd really like to know how to conduct myself with a firearm by then.

Best,
Danny

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Ghost Tracker
January 3, 2012, 11:55 PM
I do not feel that I can properly care for, or am responsible enough, to currently own a handgun. Well, with all due respect, until you get that responsibility issue addressed & under control, you are wise to avoid handguns all together. IMHO, at 29 years old you should "feel" capable of at least learning how to properly handle ...just about anything! Good Luck! ;)

dgold0101
January 4, 2012, 12:04 AM
I've shot guns at ranges before a decent number of times. But I have no concept of how to clean and care for one, and until I do, and learn how to properly handle one, I don't think I should own one and keep one in my home. Also, considering I have two roommates, and that classes, permits, and purchasing a gun is a pretty heavy expenditure for me at this moment, I'm trying to figure out a way around owning a gun at this particular time.

It's not like I don't think I'll be able to once I take the classes, just that before I do I probably shouldn't own one.

Telekinesis
January 4, 2012, 12:05 AM
I agree with Ghost Tracker. Make sure you are responsible enough before you start using pistols.

That said, I'm not sure how feasible it is, but is there any way you and your friend's father could go on a "vacation" outside of the state to somewhere where the possession rules aren't so stringent? Lacking that, you could go to a shooting class out of state where they'll rent firearms. But I must warn you, shooting schools and fellow students on the line aren't likely to take kindly to immaturity with lethal weapons. Just be careful.

Edit: sorry, wrote that before you posted. Out of state shooting school is probably your best bet.

Jim K
January 4, 2012, 12:12 AM
Color me confused. You are a 29 year-old student. You want to learn how to handle a gun for some theoretical reason, yet you don't feel you would be responsible owning one and you can't afford one anyway. Plus, in your environment, responsibility for use/misuse of a gun could extend to other people.

I strongly suggest that if you are concerned about self defense, you buy a baseball bat or take some classes in Tae Kwan Do, Karate, or whatever turns you on.

When you are able to change your current situation, and possibly move to a more gun-friendly area, you can buy a gun and learn how to used it properly.

Jim

Ghost Tracker
January 4, 2012, 12:12 AM
Sounds like you're plenty responsible, mature as well. ...trying to figure out a way around owning a gun... Then why the "permit" question? I don't know about NYC but are you telling me that to JOIN a Gun Club you MUST have a permit AND own a gun ...within 72 hours? I've been to NYC several times. I had NO IDEA it was that strange a place. Heck, move down South for the summer & let your new Southern Belle girlfriend teach you how to shoot! ;)

dgold0101
January 4, 2012, 12:17 AM
Yeah, I think you guys are misunderstanding. I'm not saying I have a lack of maturity in regards to this stuff, more like a lack of experience. I grew up here, did not really have much access to shooting ranges or guns.

Jim K
January 4, 2012, 12:23 AM
NYC makes it nearly impossible for law-abiding citizens to own or carry any firearm. They don't actually ban handguns (and so are not affected by the Heller decision) but they require compliance with so many rules that the law is in effect a ban.

Plus, generations of anti-gun propaganda from the press has convinced many folks (like the OP) that owning a gun is somehow wrong, irresponsible, and a menace to society.

There are reports that members of certain "families" have no problems getting gun licenses and carry permits, but I wouldn't know about that.

Jim

JRH6856
January 4, 2012, 12:27 AM
Vermont isn't too far away and seems to have a reasonable attitude towards firearms.

Dmitri Popov
January 4, 2012, 12:29 AM
You want a free safety class on firearms? Take a Hunter Safety course. I know the one put on by our local Game Warden (WVDNR) was top notch and really focused on gun safety. And like I said its free, even if you never want to hunt you can still take away alot of gun safety knowledge...for FREE.

dgold0101
January 4, 2012, 12:38 AM
Jim K,

Not a student. Working in a creative field where entry level isn't exactly high paying, AND paying off student loans. Not responsible enough and don't want to own one at this particular moment before I know how to use and take care of one properly. Still, even if I don't want to currently own one, I feel like knowing how to use one is a pretty necessary skill to have.

Ghosttracker, to take a handgun class at range here, or to even simply fire a pistol, you need to belong to a gun club. I believe, though I could be wrong, that you need a permit to join a gun club, and that the permit REQUIRES you to purchase a gun within 72 hours of getting it. seriously. see here: http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/crimelaw/features/4320/

Key point: New York City has some of the most stringent handgun regulations in the country, and the license application is intentionally byzantine. I pay nearly $300 to the Police Department and New York State for the privilege of filing a stack of papers, revealing mishaps as minor as a ten-year-old speeding ticket, and getting fingerprinted.

It takes several months for applications to clear -- supposedly because it takes that long for fingerprints to be checked on the city, state, and federal levels. You cannot touch a handgun in New York City before you have a license, and then, once you get your license, it expires if you don't buy a gun within 30 days. What if you don't want to buy a gun but want to take lessons? Too bad. New York City essentially forces every license-holder to buy a gun, and you must keep that gun in your house. There is no requirement that you take any instruction to learn how to operate the gun.

If you do want to learn how to shoot, however, you must join a range. Most gun owners in New York have target licenses, which require you to belong to a range and keep your gun unloaded and locked at home when you're not transporting it to the range.

au01st
January 4, 2012, 12:44 AM
Why don't you think you're responsible enough? My little brother is turning 18 in 2 months and will be getting his first rifle. And we didn't grow up around guns, either.

Ghost Tracker
January 4, 2012, 12:55 AM
Brother, you've got to MOVE OUT of New York!

JoeSlomo
January 4, 2012, 01:04 AM
Any advice? I have no idea how to proceed. I turn 30 exactly a year from now. I'd really like to know how to conduct myself with a firearm by then.

Well....

I'd recommend getting out of that city, however, you do what you think is best.

If you are serious about learning how to use firearms, research some NRA basic handgun courses, and if you can't find them in that hol....er....city, then look outside the city. Pennsylvania is not too far away, and I believe that they are not as paranoid about the use of arms.

Stick with the basics, practice the basics, and you'll be on your way.

There is nothing difficult about SAFELY using arms, however, it does take discipline. If you learn good habits from the start, and have the discipline to practice those habits EVERY time you handle an arm, you can go a lifetime without a negligent incident.

Look into USPSA, IDPA, or GSSF competitions with your area (probably in PA), or join a local gun club as a non-shooting member or something. The shooting community is very accommodating face to face, and will be more than willing to help a new shooter. My gun clubs are at least.

Good luck to you sir.

JRH6856
January 4, 2012, 02:13 AM
I believe, though I could be wrong, that you need a permit to join a gun club, and that the permit REQUIRES you to purchase a gun within 72 hours of getting it. seriously. see here: http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/crimelaw/features/4320/

The article says 30 days, not 3 days (72 hours)

"...once you get your license, it expires if you don't buy a gun within 30 days."

But I would recommend that you read the actual law (or consult an attorney) rather than rely on anything written in an article titled "Trigger Happy."

Zoogster
January 4, 2012, 02:16 AM
I would say you are already ahead of the curve.

Your ability state your fears shows you are not bringing your ego along, which already puts you ahead of most male beginners.


With no experience with firearms and an interest in a handgun, a .22 is the ideal option to learn with.
These use very inexpensive ammo, have nearly no recoil or intimidation factor, and allow you to focus on learning the fundamentals of putting things in your sights and accurately placing bullets.
The caliber is not suitable for defense, though it still quite dangerous and potentially lethal and needs to be respected. Even though it is a beginner's gun, you never outgrow the skills taught, they scale up, nor do you outgrow the .22 itself. It will remain a good training tool, and inexpensive source of fun even after you have purchased something more powerful.

You may ask why get a .22 at all if you will eventually want to get something else, but a .22 will help you learn shooting without developing bad habits that may take more time to undo. It will let you repeat good skills over and over far more times due to the inexpensive ammunition. You can get familiar and confident without trying to rush anything due to the cost of ammo, and be as gradual or rapid in pace between trying new things or doing the same thing over and over until you are comfortable and want to try something else. The low cost removes the pressure of only being able to afford so many round for a session.
Many new shooters that start out with something large develop a flinch for example. An involuntary compensation for expected recoil that reduces their accuracy and can take time to unlearn, when you should be progressing not unlearning before you can progress.



There is a simple 4 basic rules of gun safety, found in some variations, that if obeyed can avoid most potential dangers:

1. All guns are always loaded.

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.

4. Identify your target, and what is behind it.


1. Means you treat all guns as if they are loaded, even when you know they are not. Most accidents where someone is shot involve 'unloaded' guns.
It is too easy to misremember, for someone else to load your gun, or for you to recall what you did a previous time after you have done something thousands of times. Even if I am cleaning a gun and get up to get a phone, go to the bathroom, or do something else, I still always check the chamber of my firearm that I am already fairly certain is unloaded before I resume cleaning it.

2. Is simple, if you never let the muzzle cross something you wouldn't be willing to destroy, you minimize the risk of a catastrophe if for some reason there is any type of accident, whether it is your fault or a mechanical problem with the firearm.
You always stay mentally aware of what is in the direction of the gun, even when you are not shooting. You don't let it cross over another human being, gesture with it while talking, or let someone else walk in front of it. Generally you keep it pointing down range towards the target, even after all ammo is expended or while reloading.
When not at a range or in a less formal setting you change its direction if necessary to keep from muzzle sweeping someone walking in front of you, generally aiming it up or down to keep it from even being pointed at another person. On some occasions someone may not respect it or continue to put themselves on a path to walk in front of it, but it is always your responsibility where you gun is pointed. You always maintain awareness of what the gun is pointing at and adjust as necessary.

3. Unlike the movies you don't rest your finger on the trigger when not actively firing the gun. It is both dangerous, and a bad habit.
Different guns discharges under different weights, and learning that bad habit even on some really heavy trigger where it poses less risk means you will be an accident waiting to happen when you use another firearm and carry over your trained behavior.
Your finger can also jerk or involuntarily move when you are suddenly startled or subject to adrenaline. You may think you are very good at determining how much pressure is on the trigger and being safe, but be off dramatically when subject to stress, adrenaline, and not the circumstances you are accustomed to.
Many people put their index finger pointed straight along the frame or the trigger guard, outside of the trigger guard, when not actively firing. This unnatural position not only insures it requires your attention to remain straight, but communicates to other shooters that your finger is clearly not on or near the trigger and your finger has your attention.


4. This means obviously know what your target is.
If informally target shooting know what you are aiming at.
If you live with other people and investigate a suspicious noise in the dark, you don't shoot at a figure you run into in your home without knowing what it is.
If you are hunting you don't shoot towards a noise or shadow you have not identified.
Additionally you also make sure that when you are shooting that not only is your target safe, but the field beyond it is as well. That way when you miss or the bullet goes through your target it poses no risk to things behind it. Bullets travel a long ways, and something hundreds of yards away in the direction you are shooting is still in danger even if you are shooting at and hitting a target 50 feet in front of you. This means you always insure there is some backstop that will physically stop your bullet if it misses or passes through the target.

ArthurDent
January 4, 2012, 02:28 AM
Welcome, dgold0101! :)

Everyone please stop giving him a hard time! It sounds like he is trying his best to be a responsible and safe gun owner. We should respect that. Consider these two quotes:
I grew up here, did not really have much access to shooting ranges or guns.Plus, generations of anti-gun propaganda from the press has convinced many folks (like the OP) that owning a gun is somehow wrong, irresponsible, and a menace to society.I'm quite sure this is where his concerns come from.

Keeping and using a gun is an awesome responsibility, and everyone should take it this seriously. Having said that, familiarity would help alleviate some of his concerns. Those of us who grew up in a gun-positive culture are not as likely to have the pre-rational fear reaction that is being pushed by the anti crowd. But even here in the South I know several folks who have such an strong, negative, emotional reaction that they cannot discuss the subject rationally.

I can't help at all with the legal or logistical situation in NYC. He has my full sympathies, but I can't do a thing about the problem. I also think it's unrealistic to ask him to abandon his whole life there so that he can add a new skill.

My suggestion to dgold0101 is to take full advantage of his Dad's expertise! :) Jump through whatever legal hoops are required to make the lessons legit. Go ahead and buy a gun. Before you do this, buy a secure locking box for home storage and another one for transport. If you don't feel comfortable handling the gun, then leave it locked up and let your Dad help you handle it until you get the confidence to do it yourself. Trust your gut.

The usual rules apply... you should try several models and get the one that YOU like. Zoogster's advice about a .22 is excellent. If you want a bigger caliber and are allowed to own more than one gun, I recommend a good starting place would be a revolver or a Glock or an Springfield XD. These are about as simple to operate as you can get. If you plan to get more than one gun, get a .22 that is similar to your other gun so you only need to learn one system.

I know it may be hard to imagine the cultural difference, but here in the South most Walmart stores sell shotguns and high powered deer rifles, and they usually have whole aisle of ammo and hunting accessories for sale. It's not uncommon for folks to sit around and talk about their guns. Strangely, I don't know anyone who has gone on a shooting rampage. ;)

I think you'll do just fine. :)

Steve Raacke
January 4, 2012, 02:34 AM
Dgold,
I always feel a bit bad for those of you who live under such repressive restrictions as those imposed on NYC residents. I wish we could have some sort of visitor program designed so folks like you could come to less restrictive places where you can learn from those of us willing to mentor.

nyctpt
January 4, 2012, 06:53 AM
I can't answer this post in full at the moment bc I'm headed to work, but there is definitely some bad information here.

OP: Please go to the nyc.gov pages and read up on the permit process and rules. That's a much better source of info bc it's from the horses mouth so to speak. This is not a firearms friendly city but it is by no means impossible. I currently own and shoot regularly several different longarms and am about 11 weeks into the pistol permit process.

Ryan

357 Terms
January 4, 2012, 07:34 AM
I currently own and shoot regularly several different longarms and am about 11 weeks into the pistol permit process.


Wow! it's a different world there isn't it? 11 weeks into it? How long does it take?

I'm just gonna sit here and hum a few bars of "Back home again in Indiana"

Pete D.
January 4, 2012, 07:37 AM
Dgold: I live in NYC, in Brooklyn. I have access to a pistol range in a private club that is a five minute walk from the subway at Borough Hall.
I am quite willing to sit with you and to explain and demonstate the safe handing of a pistol and lots of other related information. Just give me a PM and we can set up a time.
Note: You do not have to be a member of a pistol club in order to get a permit. Note, also, that, in NYC it is illegal to handle a firearm unless you have a permit. (how's that for a catch-22?). Permits are expensive and the wait is long but the process is relatively simple (not as simple as other states), mostly the application and waiting. If you are not a felon or the subject of an order of protection, you will get your permit.
Once a permit is issued, you have 30 days to purchase the gun. Once you have purchased the gun, you have three days to take it to Police Plaza and have it registered. You may not fire the gun before it is registered.
Pete

parsimonious_instead
January 4, 2012, 07:44 AM
West Side Pistol Range in lower Manhattan... go there... it's not illegal to take a lesson in shooting a .22 rifle before getting a permit of any sort... it costs $65 or so and they give you a classroom lesson and let you shoot 50 rounds.
The instructors there are really nice and I'm sure they'd be happy to answer any questions you have "over and above" the canned lesson they're supposed to give you.
BTW, unless I have a personal or business emergency, I'm planning on attending Paul Barrett's gathering for the debut of his book Glock: The Rise of America's Gun. I'd be happy to talk to you... I'll almost certainly be wearing some sort of apparel or insignia with something gun-related.
January 10 @ 7pm
Book Court, 163 Court Street, Brooklyn, NY (Cobble Hill)

ultradoc
January 4, 2012, 07:49 AM
Give him a break. He is being honest. My advise is to move to a gun friendly state.

montgomery381
January 4, 2012, 07:49 AM
I am sorry that you have to deal with such b.s. From what you said it sounds like, to do everything legal, you have to purchase a firearm. It is good that you realize that you still have some things to learn but you could get a pistol and secure it safely in your residence and just get it out when you go to your lessons. Just because you have it does not mean that you have to keep it loaded if you don't want to. For that matter you don't even need to keep ammo in your home.

I know you said that money is tight. I don't know your exact situation but there are .22 caliber pistols out there that can be had fairly cheap especially if you find them used. And since you are just starting a .22 is the best thing to start with and cheap to shoot.

As for learning to handle a firearm, safety is everything. It doesn't matter how accurate you are if you are not safe. I don't know about New York but where I am from you can get hunter safety manuals, free, that will cover firearms safety. I don't know but I imagine you could get some material from the NRA on safety as well. Learning to shoot well just comes with practice. Good luck.

LSMS
January 4, 2012, 07:54 AM
If you have to buy a gun. You could always get a hi point. Just over a hundred dollars new. You can practice all the fundamentals without ever loading it so that covers your experience/responsibility. You could learn to field strip if, practice dry firing, practice safe handling, work controls ect. Warning, they are ugly, heavy, cheap guns. When you are ready to step up and shoot I would recommend an upgrade.

btg3
January 4, 2012, 07:58 AM
Additionally, I do not really have the funds to purchase one. Or to take a really in depth gun class.
Look ahead and budget your total expenditure for:
gun
instruction, class
permit
ammo
club or range costs
cleaning kit
holster
extra magazine
security cabinet

Let me emphasize the security cabinet. You should buy this first. You don't want to come home with your newly purchased gun and wonder how to keep it secured with 2 roomates about the place. Security cabinets are great for other valuables as well as guns. You may already have a plan for secure storage, but I thought it should be mentioned.

parsimonious_instead
January 4, 2012, 08:31 AM
Give him a break. He is being honest. My advise is to move to a gun friendly state.

Or just move to a suburban city like Yonkers or White Plains, that have quick access to Manhattan. In counties outside of NYC, longarms require nothing more than a standard NICS check. A "pistol permit" is still a pain in the butt, but it's just a matter of time, fees and paperwork. It's pretty close to "shall issue" - absent a criminal record, I have yet to hear of anyone getting denied.

Panzercat
January 4, 2012, 08:51 AM
I'd ask somebody here the next time you're on vacation "somewhere else". You'd be surprised who might offer to help, but NYC is just the pits for any sort of firearm related activities (http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/03/marine-faces-fifteen-years-behind-bars-for-unknowingly-violating-gun-law/).

Pilot
January 4, 2012, 08:58 AM
Gentlemen. Remember where he lives. He has been told over, and over that guns are bad, and by themselves cause crime, and death. Brainwahsing comes to mind, but he is fighting it.

To the OP. Guns are just tools. They do not get up off the table, and shoot people by themselves. If you can read an instruction manual, you can responsibly own a gun. Get a gun, learn how to maintain it, and get safety, and shooting instruction. Remember, no ammo in the gun, no negligent discharge. Don't put ammo in it until you go to the range with an experienced shooter. If you are that worried, don't buy ammo until you go to the range.

Flopsweat
January 4, 2012, 09:02 AM
Dgold, I think what's making some of us uneasy is the way you keep saying that you're not responsible enough. Maybe you mean "not experienced" rather than "not responsible". Hearing a 29 year old calling himself irresponsible (the same as "not responsible" but think about that) while considering owning a gun can be a little unsettling. Gauging by the rest of your post I'd like to assume that you just made a poor word choice. Could that be it?

hnk45acp
January 4, 2012, 12:38 PM
Hi fellow, NYC dweller here. Here's some handy advice
You can't handle a pistol until you get your permit, so there's no way of learning in the city before you get your permit. Also you don't need to join a club to own in NYC.
My advice, take a trip with your teacher to PA or some other gun friendly state and learn and handle as many guns as you can, then go thru the process here

steelerdude99
January 4, 2012, 03:32 PM
There is an existing THR thread for a DC reporter who has been trying to jump through all of the hoops to get a handgun. As of the last post in mid-December, still no GUN.

The situation is that handguns are not outlawed, just impossible to get for almost everyone.

search for:
Emily Gets Her Gun: Washington, DC Reporter Buys A Handgun

chuck

dgold0101
January 5, 2012, 12:44 AM
Guys, thanks for all your input.

Pete, I'll send you a PM within the week. I appreciate the offer and will definitely take you on it within the month.

toivo
January 5, 2012, 12:55 AM
It is difficult but possible to get a premises-only handgun permit in NYC. A carry permit is nigh-unto impossible unless you are a retired LEO or one of the rich-and-famous. But I strongly encourage you to go for the premises permit. Every little step towards normalization of firearms ownership in NYC deserves a big round of applause.

ByAnyMeans
January 5, 2012, 11:04 AM
http://westsidepistolrange.com/newtoshooting.php



You can check out this place. It's expensive and given the rules on NYC you can only rent a 22 lr. rifle but it gives you a safety class and range time. They also offer private instruction.

Your second option is to move, I left for Pennsylvania and could not be happier. I can still get back to NY to see my family in under two hours and that's to Long Island. Granted that is extreme just to shoot a gun but for if you it was about moving to a whole different lifestyle.

Pete D.
January 5, 2012, 03:49 PM
There is a lot of misinformation being bandied about in this thread. I am no defender of NYC and its firearms regulations but some of the stuff being said just ain't true.
but NYC is just the pits for any sort of firearm related activities.
I have a pistol range five blocks from my house. I shot there Monday, yesterday and today. I shot three rounds of Trap at my club on Staten Island yesterday before heading to the range for a pistol match. I turned down an invitation from a friend to use his club's rifle, pistol (and steel plate facility) because I just couldn't fit it in.

Impossible to get a pistol permit? You didn't read my earlier post or didn't believe it. No, it is not a fast process and it is expensive. But....if you are not a felon or otherwise in trouble with the law, You pay the fee, fill out the application and you will be issued a permit. The guy waiting in December...when did he file?

Pete

hermannr
January 5, 2012, 06:36 PM
Hej Pete! Looks like Dgold found someone that can truly help him. Very happy to see that and a tip of the hat to you.

scaatylobo
January 5, 2012, 07:04 PM
I wanted to learn to shoot and EDC a gun as well as own them without getting the hassle of nyc's B.S.

SO,left nyc in 1972 and have never looked back.

I live in Western NYS,and its easy to get a CCW here and I have had one for over 34 years.

It was one of the reasons I became a Armored courier.

AND then an LEO,left after 26 years due to injurys.

SO,my advise is leave that ****ty asap,if your serious as to owning and using firearms.

BUT,in the interim do take advantage of that retirees knowledge.

But remember he was taught the nyc way and that does not include all you should know.

Unless he is what is stupidly called a "gun nut" then your GTG.

LKB3rd
January 6, 2012, 06:33 AM
You could make a field trip to CT, rent a gun and take a class. 100% legal (assuming there isn't anything you haven't told us about your history). Maybe the NYPD guy you know could come with you, and give you a free class?

Pilot
January 6, 2012, 08:04 AM
Impossible to get a pistol permit? You didn't read my earlier post or didn't believe it. No, it is not a fast process and it is expensive. But....if you are not a felon or otherwise in trouble with the law, You pay the fee, fill out the application and you will be issued a permit. The guy waiting in December...when did he file?


You are talking about a "pistol permit" in order to just buy/own a pistol, not for concealed carry of a pistol, correct? That in itself would be gun hell for me.

woad_yurt
January 6, 2012, 08:16 AM
I have a friend who lives in NYC and has gone through the hoops to own 2 handguns.

The trick to buying a handgun within the given purchase-time window is to find a local dealer who will allow you to reserve a gun with a deposit or have one shipped there and is willing to let it sit there until your purchase-time window is open. I suggest scoping one out in Westchester or Nassau county. In the city, they're going to charge you an arm and a leg. He found a dealer that will work with one by using Gunbroker's find-a-dealer-near-you-for-transfer-purposes feature; they put themselves on Gunbroker themselves so they're willing to do transfers. Whatever you do, know that you'll have to take time off from work to go to the various police agencies to get the permit and to then again show them the gun so they can record the gun and serial number.

Regarding your learning about the gun itself, a revolver would be much less of a task than would be a semi-auto. The manual of arms (how to operate & maintain the piece) is much, much simpler. For anyone other than an NYC resident, I'd probably recommend a .22 as a first gun. But, since it's such a time-consuming hellish ordeal to get a gun there, I'd suggest a good, ol' .38 SPL. At least you'd be able to defend your home properly a year earlier than you would if you had bought the .22 first.

When my friend went to register his Makarov, the bone-head cop doing the registration mistook the importer's name for the manufacturer. So now, he legally owns a C.A.I. pistol chambered in 9X18. At least, I think it's C.A.I. At any rate, they obviously didn't know what they were looking at.

Maybe there are some forum members who live just outside of the city who'd be willing to meet up and take you shooting?

Pete D.
January 6, 2012, 08:18 AM
But remember he was taught the nyc way and that does not include all you should know.
I am really, really curious to know just what that means. What might be missing from "all you should know?"
The flaw, frankly, in that observation is the "he was taught the NYC way" which is an assumption.
Pete

toivo
January 6, 2012, 02:26 PM
When my friend went to register his Makarov, the bone-head cop doing the registration mistook the importer's name for the manufacturer. So now, he legally owns a C.A.I. pistol chambered in 9X18. At least, I think it's C.A.I. At any rate, they obviously didn't know what they were looking at.

I'm not so sure the cop was wrong. "Makarov" isn't a manufacturer: it's a model/pattern, like "AK-47." The manufacturer was a state-run factory in Russia, China, East Germany, or Bulgaria (unless it's a later Russian commercial model, in which case it's a Baikal). I went through the same thing when I registered my Makarov. According to the permit bureau clerk, the correct thing to do is list "C.A.I." as the manufacturer and "Makarov" as the model. That's also how the FFL wrote it on my receipt: he always does make/model (like S&W/642), and for this one he wrote C.A.I./Makarov.

Pete D.
January 6, 2012, 07:53 PM
+1 about that.
Pete

Pat M
January 6, 2012, 10:40 PM
The laws in NY are pretty wacky. You cannot handle a handgun until you have a license. Which, in effect, means that you cannot take a basic pistol training class until you have the license. Supposedly, once your paperwork is submitted in Suffolk County, the pistol license section can issue a letter allowing you to take the class, but no one I know has ever seen one. I got my license when I was 18, but could not purchase a handgun until I was 21. Now, you cannot apply until you are 21. Current wait time in Nassau County is up to a year, in Suffolk about 6 months. In Suffolk you can have the permit with no guns listed on it, which allows you to shoot. Someone mentioned applying for a Premise Permit. What good is that? He would not be able to take it to the range. My advice is to move to Suffolk, Westchester, or a free state.

Derry 1946
January 6, 2012, 10:48 PM
dgold: Lots of good advice already posted here. I'll add, find an instructor you trust and with whom you feel comfortable. (Sounds like you have probably already done that, but no harm in shopping around, or having multiple gurus.) This person will be a great source of knowledge, instruction, and confidence. Do get your safe first. At no cost and with no risk, you can read a great deal on the web and at the bookstore or library about how to handle and care for firearms, and the important legal and safety considerations. For what it's worth, I started with revolvers and found them a little simpler and easier to understand, clean, maintain, load, store, carry, holster, conceal, and operate. (No knock on automatics!)

Nice to see many of the NYC folks posting their well-informed input here.

Regards,
Derry

steelerdude99
January 7, 2012, 08:34 AM
I saw at least two posters in this thread say that "You can't handle a pistol until you get your permit" in NY. Does that mean if you have a permit and have a gun or guns that you cannot take someone shooting w/ you who does not have a permit? If that's the case...WOW! That's not just killing the Second Amendment, it's desecrating the corpse.

chuck

scaatylobo
January 7, 2012, 11:26 AM
Pete D.
Member


Join Date: September 13, 2010
Posts: 672
Quote:
But remember he was taught the nyc way and that does not include all you should know.
I am really, really curious to know just what that means. What might be missing from "all you should know?"
The flaw, frankly, in that observation is the "he was taught the NYC way" which is an assumption.
Pete


I am sorry that I did not bother to explain.

I was an LEO and went to the same firearms instructors school as 12 other NYC officers.

THEY were the ones to point out that they are only allowed to train with the gun they are issued,unless they are a very special few that are in the SCU [ special service unit - aka SWAT ].

The officers I trained with ONLY knew the Glock and that was all they could carry or train with.

That being the case,I am under the belief that if this civilian might not get any training with a revolver [ yes,they are easier for novice shooters = imnsho ].

And I truly believe that just learning to shoot from a firearms instructor will not give you the knowledge of the Penal Law [ article 35,use of force ] .

Nor the Tactics for a civilian to carry and CONCEAL as many NYC officers dont worry about that as much as a civilian should.After all they generally wont lose their CCW if they are spotted by another LEO.

Hope my point is clearer now.

I was a firearms instructor and defensive tactics instructor and I needed and took classes on my own to better myself.

Most LEO's do not do so.

Pat M
January 7, 2012, 02:27 PM
Chuck, yes, that is correct. You cannot even handle a handgun in the store until you show them your permit. Friends and family cannot shoot your guns until they have their own permit. Friends from out of state....nope (unless it's an nra sponsored event....I think). Pretty lame ehh?

toivo
January 7, 2012, 03:18 PM
I saw at least two posters in this thread say that "You can't handle a pistol until you get your permit" in NY. Does that mean if you have a permit and have a gun or guns that you cannot take someone shooting w/ you who does not have a permit? If that's the case...WOW! That's not just killing the Second Amendment, it's desecrating the corpse.

Sad but true. There are a few exceptions: minors over 18 but under 21 can shoot handguns on a range under the supervision of an NRA certified instructor, but once they turn 21, they have to stop until they get a permit. You can't apply for a permit until you're 21, and it can take from three months to a year to process: that's quite speed-bump in your training program. But it's supposed to keep us all safer. Yup. :rolleyes:

Also, a person who has applied for a permit can ask for special permission from the issuing judge to get training while waiting for the permit to be processed. This is written into the law, but I've never seen it actually happen. In most cases, you can't even find out which judge is reviewing your application, probably because the judges don't want to be bothered by people asking for this permission.

The good news is that NY State permits are valid for life, and there are no restrictions on carrying in Applebee's et al. So far...

9MMare
January 7, 2012, 03:32 PM
am about 11 weeks into the pistol permit process.



*sigh* that last sentence just about makes me want to cry. It's so unfair.

I commend all my compatriots who push thru and responsibly carry their firearms under such burdens.

Zoogster
January 7, 2012, 07:16 PM
steelerdude99: Does that mean if you have a permit and have a gun or guns that you cannot take someone shooting w/ you who does not have a permit? If that's the case...WOW! That's not just killing the Second Amendment, it's desecrating the corpse.


Second what? This firearm interest you have is unhealthy, and bad, and all must be done to keep an actual firearm culture from spreading, as it is nothing but a plague on society.
That means gun owners must be legally quarantined to keep this plague from spreading to other people and not dying off as it should.
Part of this quarantine is insuring gun owners cannot expose other citizens to the false sense of joy some may experience while shooting. That allows the perversion to spread, reducing the overall strategy of containment through other regulation.

JRH6856
January 7, 2012, 07:39 PM
^^^^^^
Zoogster, ROFL!:D (Unfortunately, its all too true.) :(

steelerdude99
January 7, 2012, 07:39 PM
steelerdude99:

Second what? This firearm interest you have is unhealthy, and bad, and all must be done to keep an actual firearm culture from spreading, as it is nothing but a plague on society.

That means gun owners must be legally quarantined to keep this plague from spreading to other people and not dying off as it should.
Part of this quarantine is insuring gun owners cannot expose other citizens to the false sense of joy some may experience while shooting. That allows the perversion to spread, reducing the overall strategy of containment through other regulation.

Zoogster,
I was thinking the same thing after I read posts from Pat M and toivo. It would go like this: Keep the population from accessing firearms. Less exposure to firearms will eventually cause the population to not to want firearms (i.e. they will not know what they're missing). In a generation or two those who do want firearms will be gone.

chuck

Dr Fish
January 7, 2012, 07:45 PM
you're honest and your self assessment sounds right. perhaps the first thing a wise person says is "I don't know". getting help from the retired shooting instr. is the best thing you can do. I'm in Calif, so I don't know NY laws, but I know this much; the sooner you start the better.
as for folks who disparage you for saying you're a beginner or have doubts about your responsibility I say; we were all greenhorns once. Don't let 'em bother you.
I taught my wife how to handle a gun thirty six years ago. She too was a beginner. Now she (Fish looks around... she can't hear me)... shoots better than I do.
good luck, be safe and listen to instructors. You'll have a blast.

Hugo
January 7, 2012, 08:11 PM
Advice to those in NYC and nearby New Jersey.

Jump through their hoops for now (hopefully removed for sanity in future) to legally own a firearm. Educate everyone you can about the stupid beureacracy NYC puts law-abiding tax-payers through. Vote pro-gun rights candidates for local, state, and federal elections.

For bonus points, get your CCW. Yes it's a pain, but the gun-rights unfriendly states need to see the public wants to use their rights today and perhaps some reform is needed.

Fixing this mess is a process. One step at a time (not just cheap talk), moves things forward.
Remind people that you treat the disease, not the symptoms.

Armybrat
January 7, 2012, 08:51 PM
Good luck to the OP, it's a fun hobby.

dgold0101
January 8, 2012, 06:19 PM
Thanks guys, I appreciate all the advice and support. great community here.

Cluster Bomb
January 8, 2012, 06:44 PM
Ghost Tracker
Brother, you've got to MOVE OUT of New York!

I 2a that ;)

but being responsible is key. proper handling, muzzling etc is key. also keeping them clean, etc.

I found the best bet is to learn with somone. I taught my wife with her sister. She was ify about guns, and uncertain. Once i showed her and her sister how to be safe with it and be responsible. We are out back shooting every Sunday.

Sounds like you could be ready, you identify that it is a responsability, not a game. Reading and reading is diffrent than hands on. Just keep a mental checklist in your head of what to do and not do. and pratice while applying.

but really...move! lol:p

Curator
January 8, 2012, 07:41 PM
Vacation in Florida--get warm, do some shooting--enjoy freedom in the "Gunshine State" where 486 NRA pistol instructors await the opportunity to teach and train you. No permit required, just be a law-abiding citizen over the age of 18.

Dr Fish
January 9, 2012, 01:15 PM
it's good that you know you need help. everybody was a newbie once. most states have great hunter safety courses, free or a few bucks. Not only will you learn about safe gun handling, you'll also meet some awesome people, most of whom are gun nuts too. I used to teach part of ours in No. Calif. (bowhunting safety & considerations) and I met some of the finest men & women there.
don't listen to those who are negative or disparage your efforts.
always follow the ten commandments of gun safety; you're in for a great journey.

Pete D.
January 9, 2012, 02:25 PM
Despite the fact that the gun laws are restrictive and the process is unwieldy, time-consuming and expensive, I live in NYC and have no plans to move (yet). I am no apologist for the frequently nonsensical administrative law that governs firearms ownership here but, still, I find myself shaking my head over some of the comments in this thread. Maybe it is because the restrictions are so much beyond what many of you can imagine but statements like (no offense intended)
For bonus points, get your CCW.
just go to show that you really don't know what you are talking about.
Getting a carry permit is beyond "a pain". It is, for most people, impossible. One must demonstrate need far beyond filling in "self protection" on an application. Essentially, "they" want to know what it is that makes the applicant a likely target. Y'know...what are you doing that makes you more "robbable" or attackable than the next guy? And I am oversimplifying the idea even with that.
Page three of the general application requires composition of a letter of necessity to obtain a "business carry license" , the least restricted carry permit - there are no "personal carry" permits. If it ain't in connection with a business, you ain't carryin'.
Necessary statements are:
1- A detailed description of the applicant’s employment and an explanation of why the employment requires the carrying of
a concealed handgun. (This is the big stumbling block for most applicants.)
2-A statement acknowledging that the handgun may only be carried during the course of and strictly in connection with the
applicant’s job, business or occupational requirements, as described herein.
3-A statement explaining the manner in which the gun will be safeguarded by the employer and/or applicant when not
being used.
4-A statement indicating that the applicant has been trained or will receive training in the use and safety of a handgun
5-A statement acknowledging that the applicant’s employer, or, if self employed, the applicant, is aware of its or his or her
responsibility to properly dispose of the handgun and return the license to the License Division upon the termination of the
applicant’s employment or the cessation of business.
6-A statement indicating that the applicant, and if other than self employed, a corporate officer, general partner, or proprietor,
has read and is familiar with the provisions of Penal Law Articles 35 (use of deadly force), 265 (criminal possession and
use of a firearm) and 400 (responsibilities of a handgun licensee).

Pete

kludge
January 9, 2012, 02:26 PM
Try this link. http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx

Find a "NRA Basic Pistol Course" near you where you learn what you need to safely own and use a firearm.

jyeatts
January 9, 2012, 04:34 PM
My neighbor is an NRA handgun instructor in NYC. If you'd like to provide me with an email address, then I can put you in touch. Good luck.

justice06rr
January 9, 2012, 11:03 PM
How about you come take a quick drive/vacation to Florida. there are many of us responsible owners here who can give you advice and tips on firearms, maybe even go to a shooting range. while you're at it you can get a tan on the beach or visit Disney world and Universal Studios.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but it is what it is. NYC is not the best place to own firearms as a civilian.

justice06rr
January 9, 2012, 11:11 PM
Despite the fact that the gun laws are restrictive and the process is unwieldy, time-consuming and expensive, I live in NYC and have no plans to move (yet). I am no apologist for the frequently nonsensical administrative law that governs firearms ownership here but, still, I find myself shaking my head over some of the comments in this thread. Maybe it is because the restrictions are so much beyond what many of you can imagine but statements like (no offense intended)

Quote:
For bonus points, get your CCW.

just go to show that you really don't know what you are talking about.
Getting a carry permit is beyond "a pain". It is, for most people, impossible. One must demonstrate need far beyond filling in "self protection" on an application. Essentially, "they" want to know what it is that makes the applicant a likely target. Y'know...what are you doing that makes you more "robbable" or attackable than the next guy? And I am oversimplifying the idea even with that.Page three of the general application requires composition of a letter of necessity to obtain a "business carry license" , the least restricted carry permit - there are no "personal carry" permits. If it ain't in connection with a business, you ain't carryin'.
Necessary statements are:
1- A detailed description of the applicant’s employment and an explanation of why the employment requires the carrying of
a concealed handgun. (This is the big stumbling block for most applicants.)
2-A statement acknowledging that the handgun may only be carried during the course of and strictly in connection with the
applicant’s job, business or occupational requirements, as described herein.
3-A statement explaining the manner in which the gun will be safeguarded by the employer and/or applicant when not
being used.
4-A statement indicating that the applicant has been trained or will receive training in the use and safety of a handgun
5-A statement acknowledging that the applicant’s employer, or, if self employed, the applicant, is aware of its or his or her
responsibility to properly dispose of the handgun and return the license to the License Division upon the termination of the
applicant’s employment or the cessation of business.
6-A statement indicating that the applicant, and if other than self employed, a corporate officer, general partner, or proprietor,
has read and is familiar with the provisions of Penal Law Articles 35 (use of deadly force), 265 (criminal possession and
use of a firearm) and 400 (responsibilities of a handgun licensee).

Pete

Somehow I find some humor in this, no offense. I used to visit NYC/NJ quite often to see friends and family (Manhattan, Brooklyn) and even as a tourist walking by yourself late at night or in the subway station I already feel like a target. I'm a guy so at least I could run away, but It would be significantly worse for a girl or an elderly individual.

Its truly sad how a great city has so much restriction on gun ownership, while the rest of the country enjoys our Constitutional rights. I've always wanted to live in NYC, but these strange laws have become quite a hindrance.

Thats like a law stating I need to prove above and beyond the need for me to own and ride my motorcycle...

Hugo
January 10, 2012, 12:06 AM
I know it must be beyond "a pain" to get a CCW in NYC but surely some people who could get one (meeting that ludicrous list of requirements) but don't even try to get one. It is a stupid violation of your civil rights. Still, if more people would keep pushing through the Beurocratic BS. I feel if they did they would put more pressure on NYC govt. and NY state to go from "may if you're connected/rich" to "shall issue". It's a longshot but you have to start somewhere.

Of course other states are better choices to live in. New Jersey, California, and Illinois need serious reform too.

hang fire
January 10, 2012, 01:34 PM
Offhand, if NYC is as you say, methinks a great business opportunity is going begging.

If a person who was a NRA Certified Instructor. Very familar and qualified with firearms, was to get several legally demiled (cannot be loaded or fired) different makes of handguns, rifles, and shotguns. Could they set up hands on firearms familiarization (to include safety precautions, handling, diassembly, cleaning, storage and etc) classes open to the public? Would the business be legal in NYC or would they have a cow?

Hugo
January 10, 2012, 10:24 PM
Good idea hang_fire but you will probably have to ask a NYC lawyer who knows their insane gun laws very well. I'd give it 50/50 odds.

bushmaster1313
January 10, 2012, 10:54 PM
Even New Jersey is simple compared to NYC

And if I am not mistaken, you have to periodically renew your NYC permit or the gun becomes permanent contraband.

Bummer.

In New Jersey, apply for Firearm Owners Card and Permit to buy a handgun.
When you get the permit you have 90 days to buy a handgun on that permit.
You can take it home from the dealer unloaded and locked in your trunk and I am quite sure you can keep it loaded in your home (away from kids).

You can take it from your home unloaded and locked in your trunk to a range for target practice, and back.
Not sure if you can stop along the way to go to the bathroom.

It takes NYC to make NJ look gun friendly.

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