Cane for self defense? Please explain......

Just out of curiosity why do people recommend canes so much on this site as a self defense tool outside of he fact it can get past security (or other legal reasons)? If somebody comes at me with a cane they won't keep their distance with it, I would close the gap my first opportunity, wrap up one or two of your arms, or redirect the cane (depending on how they are trying to use it) then beat the living snot out of them. If someone is willing to spend money to go get training on using something like that as a weapon they may as well use the money toward some defensive firearm or edged weapon classes if they can legally carry a gun or knife.

I'm not trying to insult anybody's recommendations, just trying to get an understanding of what the thinking is since I have had zero training on how to effectively use a cane as a defensive weapon. The only bat/cane training I have had is through KM and defending against it. IMHO it is MUCH easier to defend against that compared to a gun or knife.

Attacking a guy with a cane is like attacking someone holding a baseball bat. It's all kung-fu and speculation until the big guy starts a-swinging.

Better than bare hands and not banned anywhere. Personally, I prefer a walking stick to a cane.

People like canes/walking sticks for the simple reason, if you can't have a gun, a stick is the next best thing for a couple reasons. One, blunt force truma stops a fight waay faster than a knife. A knife is maybe the worst weapon to use for defense. It takes a lot of stab wounds to put a fighter down, there's just no shock. Looking at some of the people who have been stabbed, it took a lot. In the infamous Tate/Manson killings, it took 51 stab wounds to put Wojciech Frykowski down as he tried to fight his way out of the Tate house. At least three people had to take Frykowski down using Buck 110's. He was finally shot a couple times with the .22 revolver carried by Tex Watson. Frykowski's girl friend, coffee heiress Abiagail Folger also took two people and a couple dozen stab wounds to put down. Knives are lousy for defense.

A stick can be carried anywhere at all that you go. It's a totally under the radar defense weapon that gives you range over a knife or fists. It can block an incoming blade, or just break the bones in the hand holding your attackers weapon. The blunt force truma inflicted by a stick will have much more immediate results than a cut or stab wound. There is a reason police issue a stick. A stick gives options a knife does not.

A stick can be made almost anywhere, out of anything. When I was in the army, we had a little course in improvised weapons in case one became a POW. The stick was the top choice. A towel rack pulled off a wall, rung kicked out of a wooden chair, a tree branch, mop handle, broken off piece of broom stick, almost anything that can be thrust or swung.

Sticks are great to deal with aggressive dogs. I don't believe you'd want to close to knife range with a vicious rot or pit bull. ut a nice sturdy stick will brain the attacking dog with no problem. Few years back a off leash pit bull attacker our welsh corgi. One good slam on the pits head and it was over. I don't think I'd have wanted to deal with the pit bull with a knife. No way.

Knives are just way to limited for me to use as a weapon, unless I'm going to die if I don't, and it's the only thing I have.

Carl.

Personally, I prefer a walking stick to a cane.

May I ask the difference between the two?

"I have had zero training on how to effectively use a cane as a defensive weapon. The only bat/cane training I have had is through KM and defending against it. IMHO it is MUCH easier to defend against that compared to a gun or knife."

That is why you don't see it. You have not had the benefit of the training, so you don't know the wonderful possibilities on hand with a nice piece of wood. I'm very prejudiced to the stick because the army taught me well on pugil stick techniques as well as the law enforcement training facility I was put through trained me in stick use as well.

Go take some training, and you will see a whole new world of possibilities open to you with just a bit of wood.

Carl.

You hit the second-biggest plus right off: it is actually illegal to deny you entry with a cane to almost anywhere, or even to question you about it.

The biggest plus is as others have stated: More of a distance weapon and far more of a compelling force multiplier than a blade. Blades are scary and lethal, and make serious offensive weapons, but they aren't all that great for defense. You have to be too close and the wounds are often not immediately even realized, painful, distracting, and attack-stopping even though they may indeed prove mortal within minutes.

...I would close the gap my first opportunity...... and if they have any idea what they're doing, that's going to be your last opportunity.

There are some members here with some pretty intense training with both blades and sticks. Given the choice, they'll take a stick.

As someone who has actually been hit with a bat, a 2x4, a fence board (the cheapie planks) and a baton I can say without hesitation, getting hit with anything of the sort sucks...and nothing lingers like bruised ribs.

Also the difference between a cane and a walking stick is walking sticks tend to be thicker, heavier and have more mass.

May I ask the difference between the two?

It's just terms. "Walking Stick" "Cane" and "Staff" mean different things depending where your from. I think "Walking Stick" in UK English covers all sticks big and small. In the US "cane" is the short ones.

But I think the intended distinction is a longer "staff" vs a cane.

A cane has a handle or bent top. A walking stick has a knob, and a staff is a longer pole, sorta like a cue stick. Mine are wood walking sticks, steel cored, with stainless tips and top collars with cue ball knobs, and weigh 25-30 ounces.

Walking sticks were very popular in Victorian England and were usually made from imported rattan which is a species of cane. Calling a walking stick a cane is sort of like calling an empty pistol cases "brass" because that is the usual material.

cold steel makes some nice ones,swords in them too.then there is cane guns and suppressed cane guns,which go unter nfa any other weapons

swords in them tooJust to point out the obvious, but this completely kills off the primary benefit of the cane -- sword canes CANNOT be carried just anywhere, and quite often can't even be carried in places/states/jurisdictions where you may be able to carry a GUN.

And...it's probably not a great idea to use a sword cane as a blunt striking implement, either, unless it is designed to handle that use.

"Walking sticks were very popular in Victorian England and were usually made from imported rattan which is a species of cane. Calling a walking stick a cane is sort of like calling an empty pistol cases "brass" because that is the usual material."

During that time period, schools were set up in London and Paris for fashionable gentlemen to learn how to use that walking stick with great effect for defense. It was then that the ends of a stick became as dangerous as the main body. Often the walking sticks of the day were very slim elegantly finished sticks of ebony with silver or even gold handles. But down at the bottom, was a slim iron fitting that was almost as good as a spear when used with a good thrust to stomach or throat. Two handed techniques of the era involved using the stick as a short spear. You could run into some very unsavory people on an evening out in those days.

Carl.

AOK,


To answer your question, the difference between a trained stick fighter and the average person is that the average person will swing a cane like a baseball bat with no thought to recovery while a trained fighter will "redondo" or use the inertia of the stick in a circular motion to cycle it back through one of the basic cocked positions and into another strike. A trained fighter will also be much more aware of maintaining proper distance and will simply side step and circle like a boxer if an opponent charges.

In the Tansu method we teach close quarters stick fighting using both hands. You hold the stick in a “bench press grip” only at a 45 degree angle with the front hand high. This will leave about 6 inches of cane protruding from each hand. This is what you hit with. Your front forearm and the stick form a triangle structure like this:
^
this becomes your guard or shield against incoming punches. From this position you can strike with either hand in a motion similar to paddling a kayak with hooks and uppercuts. You can also strike with the middle of the cane or easily transition into a linear thrusting motion with either end. The instant that you recover your distance you can go right back to conventional swings with either hand as your grip is already established about 6" from either end.

This is why I am so adamant about canes being balanced in the center. It allows you to use it with either hand on either end without a dramatic change in the way the cane balances or handles. This is also why I like a minimal ball handle because it is still suitable for thrusting and crooks are not.

I recently taught a seminar on stick and cane fighting. We used boffers for practice (foam swimming pool noodles with a piece of PVC in the center) I started by inviting several perticipants to try and "stab" me with a big rubber training knife. I proved beyond a doubt that a knife is no match for a trained man with a stick.

Just found this forum. Its going to be a fun place to hang out!

I actually have some chinese martial arts training on the "stick". We called it a "baton". As has been said, its semantics. Anything can be used - a broken branch to a long maglite.

In the hands of someone trained to use it, it can be devastating! If the attacker gets close the blows that can be landed range from crippling to lethal. We always called it an equalizer. (Which can be said of most weapons). Put a baton in the hands of a small man or woman, train for a few years, and no unarmed man will stand a fighting chance, all other things being equal. Of course competence and strength are assumed.

Watch the cold steel city stick videos on Youtube and then imagine that thing in the hands of someone who knows a thing or two about combat against another human. Ouch!

Maybe mine should more accurately be staffs. I like them to top about 2" higher than the crease of the elbow. strong and balanced, black locust or osage orange wood. I've carried mine in downtown Chicago, on trains and planes and into federal buildings, courthouses, etc.

Maybe mine should more accurately be staffs. I like them to top about 2" higher than the crease of the elbow. strong and balanced, black locust or osage orange wood. I've carried mine in downtown Chicago, on trains and planes and into federal buildings, courthouses, etc.
Nobody ever gave you grief? That's cool.
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Nobody ever gave you grief? That's cool.
The Americans with Disibilities Act helps keep you from getting hassled:

...in the US we have some pretty rock-solid bits of federal legislation protecting our right to carry a cane.
The Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990 (http://www.ada.gov/) protects your right to assistive devices, and combined with provisions of the Privacy Act of 1974, means any person asking for "proof" of a disability can cram it, even if they're law enforcement, state or federal.

In the opening post AOK said:

I have had zero training on how to effectively use a cane as a defensive weapon.

No offense intended, but you represent the vast majority of people who not only don't know how effective a cane is as a weapon, they don't know that they don't know. They are oblivious to its potential as a weapon and therefore do not notice. I recently posted about carrying my 3' Osage Orange stick through the metal detector and past two security guards at the local emergency room and no body noticed yet these same guards made my brother surrender a one inch pen knife on his key ring.

I feel more confident with a heavy stick than with any other weapon except a firearm.

AOK,

Unless you're a very advanced student your training in Krav Maga probably hasn't been against someone trained in how to use a stick defensively. I have spent some time training with and against knife and stick/stave/cane as well as a few other defensive tools/schools and stick/cane will trump much of what others can bring to the fight except greater training and skill. A knife, like a firearm, isn't always a practical option while a stick/cane always can be. What would you rather have, nothing or something?

I look at it this way: You will not be employing KM when you're over 60 and your bones are becoming brittle.
Get good with a cane now, and you'll master something that will serve you til the day you die the death of an old man, middle aged man, or young man.

Young men frequently break bones in their hands punching and striking. Using a cane mitigates personal injury and multiplies the force you can bring to the table. It doesn't make you Pei Mei, but it's better than trying to put up your porous boned dukes at age 80.

I've been fortunate to have studied arnis (also called escrima). It's a form of stick fighting. A cane can readily be adapted for this (as well a flute made of a stong material such as lexan). I'm sure youtube has some videos. There are other martial art weapons (bo, jo, tonfas, sais, etc) that could have some of their techniques translate to using a cane. It's better than bare hands. Of course, you need to train to develop some level of proficiency.

"I look at it this way: You will not be employing KM when you're over 60 and your bones are becoming brittle.
Get good with a cane now, and you'll master something that will serve you til the day you die the death of an old man, middle aged man, or young man.

Young men frequently break bones in their hands punching and striking. Using a cane mitigates personal injury and multiplies the force you can bring to the table. It doesn't make you Pei Mei, but it's better than trying to put up your porous boned dukes at age 80."
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Ding, ding, ding...

We have a winner! Great point made by wheelgunslinger. I can tell you from a senior citizen standpoint, that time is the greatest threat to you in the long run. After 60 it gets harder and harder to do what ytou used to do, then in time you won't be able to. I cringe at the thought of hitting somebody with my arthritic fists. Every morning I get my coffee and first dose of Ibuprophen. That's just to get going!:eek:

I figure by the time that hair on your head gets gray, (if it's there at all:() you're gonna need a way to cheat. Nothing like starting with a cane right in your hand when some young punk tries you, and you just swing it strait up between his legs and strongly affect his family jewels. Think of it as a dirty first strike cheat by the white hairded old guy.:D

Carl.

Thanks to everyone for the explanations. I'm always looking for new areas to train in and this sounds very intriguing. I'm wondering if you need to be into some form of martial art school before you can get into any form of stick defense or do classes and schools exist focusing on this form of defense?

escrima, hapkido, la canne, bartitsu,

"Thanks to everyone for the explanations. I'm always looking for new areas to train in and this sounds very intriguing. I'm wondering if you need to be into some form of martial art school before you can get into any form of stick defense or do classes and schools exist focusing on this form of defense?"
--------------------------------------------

You can always enlist in the army, and go for the pugil stick competition. If you make it to company champ, you're pretty decent. If you make it to battalion champ, you're good. :D

Either way, you learn to handle a stick pretty darn good. Especially with the riot training.

Carl.

Yeah, I was introduced to cane and jo over 10 years ago when I first ventured into HapKiDo.
Very useful.
Now, I'm on my way to a graduate degree in Physical Therapy and about to turn 40 this year. What I see with people aging and in PT tells me I want as few breaks, sprains, twists, and stretched connective tissue as possible over the remaining years. I already have a laundry list of injuries in my recent and longer ago past.
Cane and jo help me lessen the chance of getting more, despite my feeling that the world is probably going to become a more dangerous and less free place.

I'm kind of on the OP's thought process here.

I look at it this way: You will not be employing KM when you're over 60 and your bones are becoming brittle. Get good with a cane now, and you'll master something that will serve you til the day you die the death of an old man, middle aged man, or young man.

I understand the benefit of a cane, particularly as pointed out by Sam (it is actually illegal to deny you entry with a cane to almost anywhere), but how exactly is a young man supposed to talk his way way around walking with a cane on a regular basis? Especially if that young man looks physically imposing (or at least very physically fit) and doesn't walk with a limp?

I'm no body-builder, and I'm not claiming to have any superb martial arts skills (I have none whatsoever), but people frequently tell me that I look like I'm ready to fistfight a grizzly bear. I can't even imagine the comments I would get (not to mention extra looks - and I don't want them) if I started walking with any kind of cane.

I can't even imagine the comments I would get (not to mention extra looks - and I don't want them) if I started walking with any kind of caneWell, if you can't "pull it off" socially, then you can't. From a legal standpoint, you can't really even be questioned/challenged on the matter, so you don't have to worry about what the "fuzz" is going to think.

As far as why you tell folks who ask casually? That's up to you. But don't think it is an absurd thing to see. For one thing, we have a lot of young servicemen returning from tours overseas and more than a few of them are both very fit, and have injuries that are eased through canes or walking sticks. Certainly it would be extremely wrong to lie about military service -- I don't mean to suggest that you would. I'm just saying that 'young' and 'cane' aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

...and combined with provisions of the Privacy Act of 1974, means any person asking for "proof" of a disability can cram it, even if they're law enforcement, state or federal.
So what do you do if a cop hassles you or tries to confiscate your stick or arrest you for "suspicion of possessing a deadly weapon" or some such nonsense? Do you violently resist him (as per John Bad Elk v. United States) or what? I'm taking a somewhat sarcastic tone and I apologize for that, but it's a serious question. In some places, I fully expect LEOs to abuse my civil rights if they take any notice of me, because they know they'll get away with it.

but people frequently tell me that I look like I'm ready to fistfight a grizzly bear.

Maybe you fought a bear and took a blow to the knee. Who's to know? Heck give it time and you'll eventually have something to limp about. Everyone who lives an active life gets some level of ortho trouble by 40. Might as well have the stick now.

Obviously if you're whipping the thing around and acting threatening with it, LEO's aren't going to fuss about the niceties of the ADA. But if you're using it to walk around and minding your own business, there's no reason for them to even notice or care.

So what do you do if a cop hassles you or tries to confiscate your stick or arrest you for "suspicion of possessing a deadly weapon" or some such nonsense? Do you violently resist him (as per John Bad Elk v. United States) or what? I'm taking a somewhat sarcastic tone and I apologize for that, but it's a serious question. In some places, I fully expect LEOs to abuse my civil rights if they take any notice of me, because they know they'll get away with it.
That's a good point. IMHO, unless you're willing to spend the money (which I supposed you could win back in a settlement) to fight it in court, the best thing you could do is give up the cane and buy a new one.

You're right though, it's a crummy situation, and there isn't a lot you can do to "win" without sticking to your guns and filing a suit against the department. And if you aren't the "type of person to sue," you're pretty much SOL.

What about this... is it actually a violation of any law to carry a cane/walking stick solely with self-defense in mind? I mean... let's say I started carrying a cane, and I didn't even bother denying the fact that I don't need it (if I'm asked about it, casually or otherwise).

I mean... considering the Americans with Disabilities Act. Can I just say, "I enjoy that it makes walking easier," and leave it at that? Is that legally enough that people can't require me to leave it behind in places where weapons are prohibited?

So what do you do if a cop hassles you or tries to confiscate your stick or arrest you ...Like any other gross violation of your rights, smile, be polite, and then have your lawyer make his (and his department's) life miserable and expensive. And unlike gun rights violations, lawyers LOVE disability-related violations.

But really, this isn't likely to be much of an issue. Yeah, if you go out in public with a spiked club like some LOTR cave troll's weapon and swing it at people, you'll be "hassled." If you're out for a walk with any kind of normal-looking walking stick or cane, using it in some fairly reasonable manner, no cop in 100 is going to hassle you.

is it actually a violation of any law to carry a cane/walking stick solely with self-defense in mind?Well, that can be tricky. Generally, no, but all sorts of items with perfectly mundane purposes become considered weapons when USED as weapons. Baseball bats are a great example.
Heck, wander up and down your street with a crow bar for too long and you just might get picked up for casing the neighborhood with burglary tools. But if you're fixing your deck, or you're a contractor with a whole pickup fool of carpentry tools, and you're not going to get hassled.

I mean... considering the Americans with Disabilities Act. Can I just say, "I enjoy that it makes walking easier," and leave it at that? Is that legally enough that people can't require me to leave it behind in places where weapons are prohibited? Yes, absolutely. Have you never woken up with a sore joint? Well...you're probably young, yet... you WILL. A cane is for making walking easier. A prescription is not required. Since the ADA, the possibility of lawsuits has made the whole topic a bit of a "3rd rail." Questioning your "need" for a cane is not too far off from racist or sexist comments in terms of civil rights violation danger. A public employee knows better than risk anything like that these days.

it's a serious question

No one seriously asks about fighting a law enforcement officer over a cane. You give it up, but no one seriously expects an officer to try to take a normal looking cane away from someone either.

The whole ADA argument is off target and grossly overstated, in my opinion. There's no need to be disabled to need a cane and there's no need to be disabled to have a cane make getting around easier. These days you see all sorts of versions (http://www.rei.com/product/745685/rei-city-and-trail-walker-shocklight-walking-staff) of sticks and canes and staffs in use from hiking to power walking with trekking poles. Toss in a collapsable monopod (http://www.amazon.com/Slik-Professional-Heavy-Duty-Alloy-Monopod/dp/B0002EDV4G) and a digicam and you have a perfect cover for looking around while carrying a stick.

How do you explain a cane without a limp and otherwise appearing to be fit? The way I do. "It doesn't hold me up, but it does help keep me from falling down sometimes. Too much football/rugby/skateboarding/martial arts/rock climbing/horseback riding/motorcross... in my youth. Doc said to keep it with me and Mom/Wife grouses if she catches me going out without it." OR "Great little monopod. Screw the knob off and screw the camera on and you can get rock steady video or pix. Here, give it a try." OR "Yeah, I had a pit bull/german shepherd/pack of chiwawas attack me once and was able to grab a stick and run them off. Never been without one since."

Or carry an umbrella (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2008/07/unbreakable-fig/) like a couple of us do.

Try thinking of all the tools you can reasonably carry around that make a good stick, stave or cane.

Legally you only have to worry about the laws against clubs and going with the intent to go armed or commit a crime or ... Carrying a cane to make walking easier isn't going armed.

Thanks for the responses, Sam and HSO. Wasn't trying to be difficult - just curious. :p

Bobson,

You're fine. It is hard on a young man's ego and self image to even think of themselves having to use a cane. As a student of marital arts I just consider them tools. As a student of human nature I understand that some of those tools have implications. Adapt the tool to fit your lifestyle and image.

Me, I have half a dozen canes (and 3 knee surgeries due to an overly active youth), a couple of collapsable monopods, a very expensive umbrella and thousands of dollars and hours spent on learning to make bad people leave me alone. I have flown internationally with all of those tools at one point or the other. An airport security checkpoint in the Middle East is about as daunting an environment anyone is likely to experience from a scrutiny standpoint and I've had no trouble over the cane or umbrella or monopod (but I have lost a couple of very nice pens).

Carrying a cane and having no one question it -- the only advantage I have seen so far to senescence.

Great posts. Thanks, all, for the enlightening information.

What do the experts think of something like this (http://images.google.com/imgres?q=shillelagh+walking+stick&hl=en&biw=902&bih=548&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=X7s58zRsX10MeM:&imgrefurl=http://bigstickcombat.wordpress.com/tag/war-club/&docid=AuSboywyC0-_OM&imgurl=http://bigstickcombat.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/shillelagh.jpg&w=790&h=800&ei=VxcFT7f1HcKztwe5qrnQBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=486&vpy=220&dur=10218&hovh=226&hovw=223&tx=107&ty=147&sig=112835140591690882592&page=1&tbnh=163&tbnw=161&start=0&ndsp=8&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0) as a walking aid/weapon? :uhoh:

What do the experts think of something like this as a walking aid/weapon?

Are you walking with it, or swinging it at everybody you meet? (it looks fine to me, but I'm not an expert)

My question was serious.

Are you walking with it, or swinging it at everybody you meet?
Is this?

I'm no expert either, but it looks like a great walking aid to me, and would serve as an effective weapon too, provided it's made of a strong/durable wood.

If I was going to own (and use) a cane, that looks like a cane I'd be proud to be seen with, at least as far as aesthetics are concerned.

Reading the other cane thread, it seems to be important that your hands be able to slide along the shaft. The rough and sharp edges on the shillelagh, while they would certainly leave a mark on an opponent (which was my first thought), would seem to work against that. The large knob-shaped "handle" would give your hand a better grip than a "shepherd's crook" shape, or could be used to jab or bludgeon. Or should you use the sharp end for that?

I also can't help but wonder if any cane in the hands of an obviously able-bodied person would attract unwanted attention. At 5-9 and 150 lbs. I am not exactly imposing :D, but I walk just fine.

What do the experts think of something like this (http://images.google.com/imgres?q=shillelagh+walking+stick&hl=en&biw=902&bih=548&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=X7s58zRsX10MeM:&imgrefurl=http://bigstickcombat.wordpress.com/tag/war-club/&docid=AuSboywyC0-_OM&imgurl=http://bigstickcombat.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/shillelagh.jpg&w=790&h=800&ei=VxcFT7f1HcKztwe5qrnQBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=486&vpy=220&dur=10218&hovh=226&hovw=223&tx=107&ty=147&sig=112835140591690882592&page=1&tbnh=163&tbnw=161&start=0&ndsp=8&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0) as a walking aid/weapon? :uhoh:

Well, its neither wood nor Made in USA if those aspects are important to you. I own a couple of Cold Steel walking sticks, but not their plastic Irish Blackthorn replica (http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html).

It looks like Cold Steel doesn't make a single walking stick (that I could find) that weighs more than 30 ounces. The heaviest I found are the African Walking Stick (http://www.coldsteel.com/africanwalking.html) (under 26 ounces), and aforementioned Blackthorn Walking Stick (http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html) (under 29 ounces). I would think an important attribute of a defensive cane would be a fair bit of heft (maybe up to 3-4 pounds?). Would I be wrong in that assumption?

Well, its neither wood nor Made in USA if those aspects are important to you.
I just grabbed the first picture I saw off Google Images. :o Obviously I meant a real wood one. :D

I started by inviting several perticipants to try and "stab" me with a big rubber training knife.For what it's worth, trying to stab someone with a knife when they have (and are reasonably adept with) their own contact weapon is somewhere between very risky and suicidal.

If I were up against someone with a stick while armed only with a knife there is no way I would try to stab them as a first resort.

The only bat/cane training I have had is through KM and defending against it. IMHO it is MUCH easier to defend against that compared to a gun or knife

AOK,

As a KM instructor I have respectfully disagree with you on that point. KM stick defense against a trained motivated stick attacker is a very dicey proposition. I agree that the basics of the defense work pretty good against your basic baseball bat and overhead swings. But I've done drills with trained stick fighters and that is a whole other ball of wax. Not impossible but you ARE going to get some severe dings in the process.

It looks like Cold Steel doesn't make a single walking stick (that I could find) that weighs more than 30 ounces. <snip> Ironically (to me, anyway) is that lack of weight was a major consideration in choosing to buy a C-S "Slim Stick" as a hiking aid alternative. I've owned a stout carved wood hiking staff for years which just hangs on the wall to display its unique tree wizard carvings. Its really too heavy, IMO, to carry for miles on end. My objective was to replicate functionality of an adjustable hiking stick (ski pole type) while being strong enough for "secondary purposes", so to speak as shown in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfoE-yl2wyk). ;) The C-S Slim in combo with heavier weight stainless ball head and a Black Diamond 3/8" ID rubber tip is hoped to serve those purposes well (see cane poll thread for my pics). Also to mention that I'm in my mid-60s with issues of aging, however no tactical training as mentioned by others.

AOK,

I've done drills with trained stick fighters and that is a whole other ball of wax. Not impossible but you ARE going to get some severe dings in the process.

I can certainly appreciate that regardless of the fact I have not trained against trained stick fighters. I think that is the same thing regarding any type of weapon. The better the assailant is at using the tool the harder and more dangerous your defense has become.

I am going to give away a secrets here. You don’t always have to “carry” a cane. That is just for the times you are on foot in a potentially dangerous environment. Most of us spend the majority of our time in only three or four places. We are at home, at work, in our vehicle and a few other places we frequent to do our recreation and socializing. If you ever are a victim of violence it is statistically likely to happen in one of these places simply because that is where you are most of the time. Rather than carrying your “walking cane” in and out at work every day you can prearrange to have some other suitable object close at hand that appears to serve some other function. For example, a school teacher I know has a pull down map on the wall right behind his desk that is seldom used. He replaced the pine dowel rod that was sewn into the bottom of the map with a length of steel pipe. Not only does the extra weight make the canvas map hang straight, it gives him the option to use it as a weapon. In an emergency he can get to it in just a few seconds. He also had enough sense not to tell anyone at school that he had replaced the light pine dowel.

Back when I worked at a bar I kept the but half of a two piece pool cue handy at all times. Being that there were several pool tables in the room, pool sticks were a common there and would not look suspicious. If something went wrong and I had to use it as a weapon it would appear that I spontaneously grabbed up something in the immediate environment and it was not premeditated. Again, I kept my mouth shut and did not tell anyone that I regularly practiced hitting the heavy bag and picking individual leaves off the bushes with it. BTW, there is no law against carrying a two piece pool cue in your car either, as long as you have both halves.

Is there some type of stick, tube, pipe, tool or handle that you can have close by at work that would appear inconspicuous? Use your imagination. No one has to know why it is there and unless there is an emergency they will never even find out.

^ great post, Owen Sparks.

Haven't done any in awhile (maybe this winter is a good time to restart) but my walking staffs were made for friends and family and were made to be functional and attractive. I hadn't thought about it until this thread but my daughter lives 2000 miles away and keeps hers by the front door and it always accompanies her and the dog when they walk. Her love-everybody lab was attacked by a loose pitbull and another mixed breed dog and she was able to fend them off as she made it back to the front door. My son-in-law heard the commotion and met her at the door, hustled her inside and grabbed the staff from her. He stopped all canine aggression and administered significant punishment without breaking the black locust staff.
I thin I need to spend some winter night shop time making some more. I've got Osage Orange that was planked 5 years ago and put up in the barn to cure.

Osage Orange is an excelent choice. You can't break it with normal use and it is dense and heavy enough for our purposes. Work it down into a rod about 1 1/4" with no taper and a the weight should be about right. It will start out a bright orange color but over time it will fade to a honey brown.

Good luck and try not to breath the sawdust. It makes some people sick.

What do the experts think of something like this (http://images.google.com/imgres?q=shillelagh+walking+stick&hl=en&biw=902&bih=548&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=X7s58zRsX10MeM:&imgrefurl=http://bigstickcombat.wordpress.com/tag/war-club/&docid=AuSboywyC0-_OM&imgurl=http://bigstickcombat.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/shillelagh.jpg&w=790&h=800&ei=VxcFT7f1HcKztwe5qrnQBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=486&vpy=220&dur=10218&hovh=226&hovw=223&tx=107&ty=147&sig=112835140591690882592&page=1&tbnh=163&tbnw=161&start=0&ndsp=8&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0) as a walking aid/weapon? :uhoh:
I have a cold steel version of this it is a walking stick and you will get on issues unless you acting out.

try not to breath the sawdust. It makes some people sick.


True that, any kind of sanding should be done with at least a mask.

You should set up a shop vac with another length of hose running out of your shop to remove the dust from the area instead of just trying to use a dust mask. The fine wood dust will be suspended in the air for quite a while and you're not likely to wait to remove your mask

I used a stationary belt sander out on my deck on a windy day, no problems. As I understand it from some of my archery buddies, some people have a real problem with Osage sawdust.

Yeah, I'm one of those. It can be very nasty stuff.
I decided to stick with Yew.

I should have mentioned that my 5' 0", 110# daughter had no training of any kind and was able to use the staff to keep the 2 dogs away from her and her pup long enough to make the threshold of the front door. The SIL is former Army Ranger and made good use of the stick with whatever training he had.
I'll use a draw knife and sander w dust vac.

I'm getting up in years, and for long walks I need a walking stick. Bought a Harvy (yes, spelled correctly) carbon fiber 37 in. 8.6 oz. Supports up to 250 lb., and is one helluva Martial Arts weapon.

I also have a 42 in. Cold Steel Sjambok. Anyone use one of these?

There are some nice bois d'arc and mulberry staves for sale by a bowmaker on eBay.

I wonder if a wooden field hockey stick would make a good blank for a cane? They are typically made of mulberry (which is light weight but tough) or hickory.

I also have a 42 in. Cold Steel Sjambok. Anyone use one of these?

I do. It hangs by the front door. I live with a pack of large dogs and every once and a while one needs a correction. The reason I use the sjambok is that it causes pain without the risk of serious injury (as long as you stay on the flanks and off the spine.) I took a stripe across the back with it once to make sure it was safe for the dogs. I was wearing a light jacket at the time and figured it would give about the same protection as a dogs coat. It hurt like damn it and left a pretty good welt that took a few days to fade but other than that I was unhurt. The light weight coupled with the whip like speed means that all the energy of the blow is expended on the surface and does not penetration to damage muscles, bones and organs.

This is exactly why whips and other instruments of corporal punishment make poor weapons. They are designed NOT to cause deep tissue trauma and that is what is required to stop a determined advisery who may be so hoped up on dope or adrenalin that he is temporarily immune to surface pain. Only muscle trauma or structural damage will stop people in that state of mind. You can only accomplish this with a stick or cane that has enough mass to penetrate below the skin.

Craftsman,

Why do you thing the Harvy carbon fiber can makes a suitable martial arts weapon? The objective of assistive canes is to be light and stiff with good compressive strength in the shaft. Carbon fiber does a great job of this, but defensive canes need to have great shear and side loading strength across the axis and carbon fiber doesn't handle this very well. Carbon fiber's light weight can make the cane fast, but it can also can make it less desirable in a defensive role since it can make for too light a cane to impart enough force to the blow. If the Harvy is as heavy as a hickory cane it won't be too light to strike with effectively, but if much lighter I'd focus on the thrusting/locking aspects in training with it.

You just can't get a really light weight cane going fast enough to make up for the lack of mass.

You just can't get a really light weight cane going fast enough to make up for the lack of mass.
It seems to me (fortunately, without regular need to rely on such) an interesting corollary that a heavy cane or walking stick works best defensively for those who don't tend to walk far using them, whereas a lighter cane works best for those who cover more distance. As such, I chose a lightweight C-F stick (as described previously), modified to suit my preferences for longer distances where a heavy weight cane/stick/staff would be tiring to carry.

If that is true, those whom have physical limitations requiring ever-present support (plus those that don't), can choose a more ideal defense device than those who "weigh" (so to speak) all options and choose a lighter alternative? BTW, I know need more training on how to properly "stick it" to potential perps...

When I was hiking regularly, we usually did 7 miles. That's not far, true, but maybe farther than you're suggesting.

I prefer canvas micarta, which is heavier than any wood.

John

...I would think an important attribute of a defensive cane would be a fair bit of heft (maybe up to 3-4 pounds?). Would I be wrong in that assumption?

My stick-swinging days consisted of ****/eskrima/arnis, from which I learned that the stick which is slightly light to your hand is much easier to wield than the one that is slightly heavy. You can intercept incoming attacks much faster, counter much faster, and strike much faster. And in sticks of this relative weight, there's little enough difference in the end effect of the strike to matter, so the edge in speed, and your ability to wield the instrument, seems, well, instrumental.

I wouldn't disagree that light, to a certain point, swings faster/easier than heavy. But after doing a lot of striking- dead trees are a favorite target- I came to really appreciate sturdy. I can always build speed.

There's a balance that has to be met with stick weight. Heavy enough to deliver impact forces and light enough to have speed. Speed is critical in sticks, but you should practice with sticks heavy enough to let you build speed with progressively heavier sticks. Note the important word "practice".

Yep.

I don't know if I still can, but I practiced daily for months with a staff that one of the best staff instructors in the country said was too heavy. After the first couple of months...it wasn't too heavy.

It might be too heavy at the moment, if I had it again. I really regret selling it. :(

One of the problems with starting out with too heavy a practice stick/cane/sword/staff/... is the potential for injury. I've seen folks injure themselves due to the repetitive nature of practicing forms using practice pieces that were too heavy for them. I "borrowed" a Jian in class the other day after having left mine at home and the thing was a horribly unbalanced "chunk" compared to my Adam Hsu. For a novice it would have been too heavy and would have risked injury repeating the motions over and over.

Like anything, you have to fit the tool to the individual and the individual has to practice to build skill and speed and strength. You start out at one point and end up at another.

hso said:

One of the problems with starting out with too heavy a practice stick/cane/sword/staff/... is the potential for injury. I've seen folks injure themselves due to the repetitive nature of practicing forms using practice pieces that were too heavy for them.

Absolutly!

I recommend that my students start with something really light like a piece of PVC pipe and get the form down then gradually build up. It is just like Olympic style weight lifting. Many coaches start people out working with just the 45 pound bar and don't let them add weight at all until their form is correct in order to avoid injury. Stick swinging is like Olympic lifting in that it is dynamic in nature and once a heavy barbell or stick gets in motion it becomes much heavier. You can really mess up your wrist or rotator cuff if you get out of form or try to stop the momentum of a heavy stick and snap it back.
Throw every swing as if you knew that you would miss then let the inertia cycle the stick back through one of the basic cocked positions seamlessly and flow into the next technique.

I really should make a tape of my stick fighting seminar.

Whoever said knives are bad for self defense should reconsider.. There have been many cases of people taking multiple stab wounds before they keeled but that doesn't necessarily make them bad for self defense. Nobody wants to get cut and brandishing one can truly make a guy rethink whether or not he wants to be in arms length of you. And they Can kill. I knew a guy (henceforth "bad guy") that was at the beach once, drunk, and beating up on some girl when good guy steps in and tells him to cut it out. A drink gets spilt on bad guy and bad guy stabs good guy (once) in the gut and good guy walks outside and dies in the road.

Knives aren't bad, you should carry a knife along with your stick but realize that the stick offers better reach than any knife plus it is non-lethal when blows are focused on the limbs. The only real advantage a knife offers is in really close when you are wrestling with an opponant and can't strike with a stick. The kicker is that a knife wielding attacker has to pass through stick range before he can use his knife and if you see him comming his chances are very slim if you know what you are doing. I have proved this many times by challenging students to "stab" me with a rubber training knife before I could whack them with a boffer. No one has yet. I hit them at least once, usually somewhere on their knife forearm, on the head or sidestep and take out a knee if they charge.

I have proved this many times by challenging students to "stab" me with a rubber training knife before I could whack them with a boffer.While stabbing is the technique most likely to be lethal when using a knife, anyone who tries, as a first resort, to stab a person wielding a contact weapon (especially one with significantly longer reach than his) is unlikely to be successful unless his opponent is unskilled and perhaps unlucky as well.

If I had a knife and I were attacked by someone wielding a stick, I would never start out by trying to stab them.

It takes a lot of skill and probably some luck to successfully stab someone who's defending or attacking with a contact weapon without being seriously injured in the process. It's much safer to mess up their hands. From a defender's perspective when up against someone with only a contact weapon, it's a very effective tactic.

If the attacker is using a stick with a two hand hold, that makes things easier and the harder/slicker the stick is, the better it is for the man with the knife. The blade will have a tendency to slide down the stick to the wielder's fingers/hands.

JohnSA said:
If I had a knife and I were attacked by someone wielding a stick, I would never start out by trying to stab them.

So how would you close the distiance to where you could employ your knife?

Nobody wants to get cut and brandishing one can truly make a guy rethink whether or not he wants to be in arms length of you.

I won't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post, but this is absolutely wrong. Brandishing a knife is stupid, stupid, stupid. If you employ a knife, the recipient should never know you have a knife until it's in play.

Owen, you DON'T want to close the distance. As the defender, distance is good. Canes are good, because they allow you to keep distance. A knife is only the best choice if the distance has already been closed.

Owen, with my staff (which weighed close to 5 lbs), I started out slowly, and gradually built up speed.

John

Attacking someone you see is holding a knife is stupid, stupid, stupid, if you ask me. But if you're willing to explain I'll listen.

You know, I have a flight out in hopefully an hour, and I have to go. Ask anyone with experience- hso is a good one- and you'll get plenty of info.

J

There are three places that you can be in relation to a stick wielding attacker when all you have is a knife.

The first and best is far enough away that you are out of his reach, preferably in the next county. Unfortunately that may not be an option.

The second and worst distance is where he can hit with his stick but you can’t reach him with your knife. A stick fighter who knows how to side step and circle can keep you right out on the end of his power point and make you play his game.

The third distance is in close, so close that the opponent is too crammed up to effectively use his weapon but you can still use yours. You see this principle all the time in boxing when one fighter gets in trouble and hugs his opponent in order to tie him up and make his punches ineffective.

This is the only hope you have when using a knife against a stick. Get inside and make him play your game. You simply can’t swap stabs against swings when the opponent’s weapon gives him a two foot reach advantage. Either get inside or outside. If you get caught in that middle range on the end of his stick you are done.

Okay, I didn't make my flight- for the 2nd day in a row- so let's talk this out.

A knife, by definition, is a lethal weapon. Sure, it can easily be used in a non-lethal way, but the very employment of the knife against a human is considered lethal force, whether it's fatal, or not. When, exactly, would you brandish a knife to stop an attack? Lethal force can only be lawfully used to stop death or serious injury.

Is a potential attacker (apparently) unarmed? Well, then, you're breaking the law by brandishing. If he's not unarmed, what weapon does a knife trumps? He must not be close, if you have distance to brandish. The potential attacker may then get off scot free if he produces a firearm and shoots the brandisher's idiotic butt.

Is the attacker holding a stick? Well, a stick is much less likely to be considered a lethal weapon, to begin with. Brandishing a knife to an attacker who already has a weapon with longer reach is, again, silly. All you're doing is letting him know you can hurt him if he gets too close and careless. You've just upped his vigilance.

The only place for a defensive blade is when an attacker is unaware of it. Brandishing a knife is practically begging to be shot.

Is the attacker holding a stick? Well, a stick is much less likely to be considered a lethal weapon,

One of the most disturbing sights I have ever seen was a dead man who had his brains BEATEN OUT OF HIS HEAD with a common piece of pipe. Plenty of people have beaten to death with sticks of various types. Before the time of the sword armies fought battles armed with only sticks and clubs including the ancient Egyptians.

A criminal assault is not a sporting event and you don't owe your assailant a fair fight because you have no way to know that your attacker will stop once he gets you hurt and disabled. You can't bet your life on his good intentions. A sturdy stick can be as deadly as anything else if the attacker chooses to finish you off.

Just a remembrance from my (somewhat) mis-spent youth...

Had a good friend who had crutches and leg braces. A couple of Wise N. Himers thought he would be an easy target. Before could get across the small saloon, BOTH of them were on the floor....

Yeah..don't mess with a guy on crutches...

It may be worth pondering how unlawful violence starts. Self-defense is about protecting yourself from unlawful violence, not squaring off for a duel. If you're doing that you are both law breakers. I'm a little short on time right now to elaborate, but it seems to me that an assault against someone like me where I would be justified in using force is going to occur under a limited set of circumstances.

So how would you close the distiance to where you could employ your knife? A two hand hold like the one you describe in an earlier post gives you about a 6" reach with a cane length stick.

If you swing the stick like a bat you have a much longer reach but it's slower and makes it easier for a quick and/or skilled opponent to get inside the swing.

The two hand hold is strictly limited to close quarter use in a crowd or narrow hallway. You have to learn how to redondo, that is cycle your swings back through the cocked position and recover or the opponent will get inside. This is what makes a weapon like a bat easier to defend against because it is just plain too heavy to recover quickly.

I bought a Cold Steel Brooklyn Smasher:
http://www.coldsteel.com/brooklynsmasher.html
and I just can't control the follow through fast enough to suit me. This thing weighs 39 ounces and even though it delivers tremendous force it is just too heavy. To further complicate things the weight is well forward of center and this makes it feel even heavier than it is. See the post about "My new stick, better than a baseball bat." I have found something a good bit lighter that balances better yet still has plenty of mass.

This stick vs. knife direction this conversation is heading reminds me of a question that I ask my students.

Which is a better weapon,

a custom built sniper rifle capable of hitting a man at 1,000 yards.

Or

A snub nose 5 shot .44 Special revolver?

The correct answer is “it depends.”

The sub nose revolver would be useless in the wide open terrain desert of warfare where the enemy is hundreds of yards away and the sniper rifle would be totally useless if you were attacked by the passenger in the front seat of your car because you would not have enough room to turn it.

Even the combination of the stick and knife, the sword requires some room to use. We have all seen movies where two swashbucklers tie up in a sword fight and the more devious one pulls out a dagger and finishes the other.

The thing that gives a stick an advantage in a typical criminal assault is that the bad guy must pass through your sticks optimum range before he can lay hands (or blade) on you. Unless you live in a crowded city and have to ride a subway you probably do not have many anonymous members of the general public get within hands reach of you in your daily routine. Even if you do it is unlikely that a total stranger is going to knife or sucker punch you without at least some form of escalation that will give you time to adjust your distance. I teach several methods to set up a “sucker punch” with a cane without giving away your intentions. One is to subtly shift your grip down the shaft a bit and punch to the body with the handle end by aligning the stick with your forearm. This puts the mass of your body into the strike as well as giving you a little more reach. This is why I like a minimal ball grip rather than a crook or derby grip.

JohnKSa wrote:

If you swing the stick like a bat you have a much longer reach but it's slower and makes it easier for a quick and/or skilled opponent to get inside the swing.

True, and a good point.

Each situation (usually dynamic and changing) will best be addressed using specific “techniques/tactics”.

Therein…lays the benefit of formal training if you intend to use a cane/stick as a defensive weapon.

I can think of scenarios where grasping and swinging a cane like a bat…would be just the ticket, but would not be appropriate (or even possible) in other situations.

So…IF the person wielding the cane has ONLY that one skill…then yes, chances are excellent someone will get inside his defenses quickly.

Environment and the physical capabilities of the person defending themself come into play also.

Except to support yourself…a cane might be of limited value to you… if you are in a crowded elevator.

Conversely….give me a little room (that I can maintain) and I will choose a cane/stick to defend against a knife attack ANY day….(vs. knife on knife).

Then you have the matter of why the average person carrying a cane even has it. Odds are…they NEED it (to some degree) in order to support their weight or aid in their mobility. These will be the folks most vulnerable and perhaps those who would benefit most from training (geared toward their limitations).

As pointed out…learning to “Redondo” is very important…but harder to do with a cane than with Escrima Sticks. Still, the concept of keeping the weapon fluid and “re-striking” is a valid one.

Many folks are able to learn useful techniques, concepts and principals from attending “seminars” if they are available in your area.

It is a misnomer to think that you have to invest years of training before you can defend yourself. Of course, it is equally wrong to believe you will become “accomplished” after only a few lessons.

The point is: While it is good to have ANY weapon vs. NO weapon, it is imperative to know how to use what you have, if you expect to successfully defend yourself.

One Trick Ponies….don’t last too long in the real world.

Flintknapper said:

It is a misnomer to think that you have to invest years of training before you can defend yourself. Of course, it is equally wrong to believe you will become “accomplished” after only a few lessons.

I can show you everything you need to know to defend yourself effectivly with a stick or cane in just a couple of hours. The kicker is that you must practice those techniques regularly for a while before you "own" them and can use them reflexivly. Then you must practice periodicaly to keep those skills sharp. This is no different than learning to shoot. It takes range time.

^^^^^^^^

I couldn't do it in a "couple of hours", but I can put the fundamentals on anyone in a couple of days, then as you say...let them practice to the point it is ingrained and kept sharp by periodic review/practice.

Like most things...its a perishable skill, but not completely so.

The reason I like a couple of days...is to impart the use of certain concepts and principles. Once you understand those...the application of any defensive tool becomes more effective.

The vast majority of folks get taught: If he does "A", you do "b", and end up getting their clocks cleaned on the street.

Time spent learning WHY you might employ a certain technique, when it is useful, when not, etc...is a skill in itself and tends to have lasting value.

But yes, I concur....a lot can be learned quickly by a good student...then perfected later with practice.

I say "a couple of hours" meaning that is how long it would take me to cover the basics with just me talking and demonstrating Of course there is no way anyone could remember everything that they saw in two hours. I was thinking along the lines of an instructional DVD that could be paused and repeated.

Our last seminar consisted of six two hour classes spread out over a six week period. The majority of the time was not spent on direct instruction but on drills and interactive practice. For example, I might spend five minutes teaching a technique and half an hour letting the students work on it until everyone was doing it correctly but I digress.

Back to your original point, I agree that stick self-defense is one of the easier martial arts to learn plus it is not nearly as physically demanding as traditional Karate or wrestling. It is suitable for people over 50 because it does not put a lot of stress on your back and knees and all the impact is taken by the stick rather than your joints. Realize that I am talking about learning self-defense with a stick, NOT stick fighting like the Dog Brothers do where both opponents square off with a length of rattan for a sporting duel. That is rough stuff and terrible on the fingers.

Your chances against getting in a stick on stick fight with a skilled opponent outside the dojo are astronomical. Case in point, I worked as a bouncer for five years in a sports bar and we literally had racks of pool sticks mounted on the walls. We also had our share of brawls. During that time I NEVER saw two guys grab up pool cues and duel like they do in the martial arts movies. In fact I have never even heard of two people getting in a real stick on stick fight outside martial arts class. I do know of three people who have been struck by lightning though.

My state allows CCW in parks, however local officials can make local ordinances to thwart this. I see the advantage of a cane as more of a deterrent. A bad guy most likely in a park will wait for one of those naive anti-gun Brady characters that think the police can protect them.

Kind of like that old joke about the two old women and the bear. One brought her tennis shoes. The other told her she couldn't outrun a bear. The one with the tennis shoes told her she didn't have to outrun the bear, just outrun her.

"My state allows CCW in parks, however local officials can make local ordinances to thwart this. I see the advantage of a cane as more of a deterrent. A bad guy most likely in a park will wait for one of those naive anti-gun Brady characters that think the police can protect them. "

This just one of the huge advantages of a stick/cane/staff. When someone is close, the stick is right there already in your hand. You on't have to grab and pull it, no opening to worry about, no laws against it, and it's always with you.

It can block an incoming fist or knife, and strike a nice butt stroke under the chin or in the throat an instant later. It's a fast surprise weapon that can be carried in plain sight anywhere. Some places you can't have that knife with you. A stick can be made from many things in a few moments notice, from a wide range of things.

A knife is a poor second place.

Amen Carl !

Some people have expressed a concern that carrying a cane might make you appear lame or weak and therefore an easy target. You DO NOT need to affect a limp to legally carry a cane. If I have to go into the city and feel like I might be in a dangerous environment I make a point NOT touch the tip on the street so I don’t appear to be using the cane as a crutch. I choke up on the grip about a foot with the head pointing either forward in a reverse grip or backward in a natural grip. This method of carry does not cross the line into blandishment yet allows the casual observer to clearly see that I can walk just fine. From these two aforementioned carry positions you can launch the stick equivalent of a sucker punch either with a circular strike or a thrusting motion with the butt end.

I really wish some of you could have attended my seminar as we spent a good bit of time on non-threatening carry methods and “quick draw” strikes from these two basic carry positions.

Owen Sparks wrote:

Some people have expressed a concern that carrying a cane might make you appear lame or weak and therefore an easy target. You DO NOT need to affect a limp to legally carry a cane. If I have to go into the city and feel like I might be in a dangerous environment I make a point NOT touch the tip on the street so I don’t appear to be using the cane as a crutch.

Exactly. IF you are physically able to do so...a small display indicating you are able to defend yourself can go a long way.

Normally, a BG will assess the potential victim (size him up) and weigh the risks before deciding whether or not to launch an attack.

Any reasonably intelligent BG will be quick to pick up on subtle hints suggesting he may be in for a fight.

And the unintelligent ones usually pick up the lesson pretty quickly.

So now I have a question about technique with one hand. I have baton training so a shorter stick makes sense. But with a cane, one hand seems like it would take a pretty large wind-up to go for a swinging strike. What's the feasibility of going for a thrust with one hand?

So now I have a question about technique with one hand. I have baton training so a shorter stick makes sense. But with a cane, one hand seems like it would take a pretty large wind-up to go for a swinging strike. What's the feasibility of going for a thrust with one hand?
__________________


I don't know. With a long stick, I'd just stick with my old army pupil stick techniques. I would only consider one hand use with something about the length of my forearm or shorter. Like a short billy club. To my thinking, the whole point of the long stick is the power you can put into a lunge, or the leverage for blocking and thrusting.

Carl.

Like Carl I stick with the Pugil/ bayonet technique but my instuctor has taught some one handed stuff like owen metioned. Like snaps to the groin. Pokes to the gut, throat, face. Nothing about a wind up baseball swing. A good series of lunges, followed with a butt stroke up, and then back down should convince Mr BG he failed in the victem selection process.

glistam asked:

So now I have a question about technique with one hand. I have baton training so a shorter stick makes sense. But with a cane, one hand seems like it would take a pretty large wind-up to go for a swinging strike. What's the feasibility of going for a thrust with one hand?

You can use a heavy walking cane effectively with one hand. The trick is to use what we call the one third grip. In other words, choke up on it about a third of the way or as far as you can without the butt end hitting your upper arm when your stick redounds. (This is why I like a minimum sized ball handle.) The extra length of handle will act as a counter weight sort of like the pommel on a heavy broadsword and allow you to handle your cane like the shorter sticks favored by many Pilipino martial arts. For defensive purposes, when you hold your stick at the ready with your hand solar plexus high, it does not need to extend above the height of your head.

Why?

Because you don’t need to block anything above head height. The one third grip will put the tip of a walking cane right about there.

Another big consideration is that the typical home or office ceiling is only eight feet high. (Ever thought about that?) Unless you are in an open area like an empty parking lot there are often other people and objects in the vicinity and you may not have a lot of room to swing a three foot cane.

This is why the one third grip should be your default grip. Also, the extra length on the handle end can be grasped by your other hand for a powerful two handed baseball swing if the situation permits.

Owen Sparks wrote:

For defensive purposes, when you hold your stick at the ready with your hand solar plexus high, it does not need to extend above the height of your head.

Why?

Because you don’t need to block anything above head height. The one third grip will put the tip of a walking cane right about there.

Even if you choose to hold it lower, choking up 1/4 to 1/3rd on your cane will allow you to Payong/Umbrella block or wing block. There isn't anything quicker in terms of blocking an overhead blow, then deliver your own strike.

I was refering to circular strikes coming from either side.

It is important when using a roof block that you move at a 45 degree angle off to the side cramming the opponants blow.

Another big consideration is that the typical home or office ceiling is only eight feet high. (Ever thought about that?)

Yes. And I can fight with a 74" staff someplace with the ceiling you describe. Anything less is easy! :D

Owen Sparks wrote:

I was refering to circular strikes coming from either side.
O.K. with you now, sounded as if you were addressing overhead strikes as well.

It is important when using a roof block that you move at a 45 degree angle off to the side cramming the opponants blow.

It's "desirable" for obvious reasons, but not necessary...or even possible in some cases. If you get caught a little behind the curve (reaction wise)...you may not have time for the footwork...though ideally it would simultaneous with the block itself.

Another scenario would be compromised positions, such as down on one knee (invites an overhead strike).

But yes, anytime you can move offline of the strike...its probably a good thing. Moving "away" buys you a bit of time and perhaps a better angle with which to counter, moving "toward" intercepts the blow and robs it of full power.

You mention ceiling height as a possible problem (typical 8' ceiling). I haven't had any problems maneuvering my cane under the ceiling itself (and I'm 6'-5" tall), BUT fixtures (I.E. ceiling fans, hanging lights, etc) will definitely get in your way, so your advice to be "aware" of such things is good..and something a lot of folks would not think about.

What Uncle Sam teachs translates to the cane quite well. Mindset and being willing to hurt some one to protect yourself or others is never to be underrated.

As Gen Forrest said Keep the Skeered On!

Yeah, if you go out in public with a spiked club like some LOTR cave troll swinging it at people, you'll be "hassled."

I can't stop laughing at that. Too much.

Great information in this thread. I've never really thought about a cane as a defensive weapon, just as something to hold up an old or injured person. So obvious now that in itself is one of it's attractive attributes.

Great information in this thread. I've never really thought about a cane as a defensive weapon, just as something to hold up an old or injured person. So obvious now that in itself is one of it's attractive attributes.

BINGO!

A cane is not the BEST weapon that you can have, but it is the best weapon that you can always have with you. It is not always even the stick that you can have as canes are a little too long for indoor use but then again, you probably can't legally get away with carrying an escrima stick, billy club or collapsible baton everywhere. The next best thing is to adapt the cane to close quarter work.

AOK, put Glenn Doyle's Irish Stick Fighting school on your list of training.

Here's a good start (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d43qH9w5Dow) to help you understand the potential.
There are two other videos in that series.
Just check the right column.

Notice that he uses knob sticks, not canes.

Always carry a stick to a knife fight.

AOK, put Glenn Doyle's Irish Stick Fighting school on your list of training.

Here's a good start (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d43qH9w5Dow) to help you understand the potential.
There are two other videos in that series.
Just check the right column.

Notice that he uses knob sticks, not canes.

Always carry a stick to a knife fight.

Thank you for the recommendation.

Funny this thread got bumped back up. I just sent in a deposit for my first class which focuses on using a cane and kubaton for self defense. Before this thread several months ago it would have never crossed my mind to take a class like this but now I can't wait!

Oh, very cool. (And you're welcome. ;) )

I look forward to hearing reports and stories from your class!

Nem

I'm with Carl and Bikedoc The US Army taught me how to use sticks like I would a Rifle with a Blade on the end. Later I studyed the Jo and staff in MA. As it been stated you can carry them anywhere thanks to Federal Law and they don't raise many eyebrows either.

check out youtube http://youtu.be/34S4A79jrjo

Just out of curiosity why do people recommend canes so much on this site as a self defense tool outside of he fact it can get past security (or other legal reasons)? If somebody comes at me with a cane they won't keep their distance with it, I would close the gap my first opportunity, wrap up one or two of your arms, or redirect the cane (depending on how they are trying to use it) then beat the living snot out of them. If someone is willing to spend money to go get training on using something like that as a weapon they may as well use the money toward some defensive firearm or edged weapon classes if they can legally carry a gun or knife.

I'm not trying to insult anybody's recommendations, just trying to get an understanding of what the thinking is since I have had zero training on how to effectively use a cane as a defensive weapon. The only bat/cane training I have had is through KM and defending against it. IMHO it is MUCH easier to defend against that compared to a gun or knife.
What if the other person was stronger, faster and more skilled than you? How would you do all that after they klinked your skull or drove the butt end of their walking stick into your gut?

The point of using a cane is to be able to fight at a distance by circling and side stepping in order to keep the bad guy out on the end of your weapon where he has to play your game with no ability to counter. Think of yourself as a bull fighter rather than as the bull. You really don't even have to maintain this distance very long. Just a few seconds should be all the time you need to deliver several fight ending blows, provided your cane carries enough mass of course.

a cane in the hands of someone who knows how to use one is a very formitable weapon for self defense
the hook can be used for leg sweeps by hooking the feet of an atacker
or using to put an attacker in an arm bar with the hook around the neck to subdue the attacker by choking him out or putting him on the ground.
the but end can be used to thrust blows to the sternum.

swinging a cane like a bat is a very easy way for an attacker to disarm you

it has its advantages and disadvantages if you don't know how to properly use it as a defense mechanism.
fortunately for me I have had proper training as well as a Shodan degree in Shotokan and think I could stand my ground pretty good even with my disability using a cane to defend my self against a would be assailant but I hope I never have to find out but if I do I will be prepared and do carry a PT 92 for backup in case I start loosing ground or get put on it or if my attacker is more skilled in the martial Arts and trust me if i pull it on someone I am prepared to squeeze the trigger up to as many as 16 times if necessary and yes I keep a round chambered and 2 extra magazines at all times just in case.

I never assume the gun is loaded I know without a doubt it is,
and I never point it at anything I dont intend to kill;)

great thing about canes is they don' require a CCL and you can take it anywhere.

Back around the turn of the century, when every gentleman carried a cane, there was an extensive "method" for employing them for self-defense. Most of the moves (you can still get reprinted books) are derived from saber fencing, which of course most gentlemen of the period were schooled in as well.

The Koreans developed a fairly extensive cane technique in the Hapkido system, You can see some of this in action in The Big Brawl; a Jacki Chan vehicle.

As well, most all the techniques from Filipino arnis/escrima would translate very well to the cane.

Finally... At the upper levels of instruction, even Judo includes some stick (hanbo) techniques which were apparently developed for police use.

Just having a cane is not enough. You also need the skill to use it.

Owen the same is to be said for any weapon whether it is a Gun Knife or Wakizashi

If somebody comes at me with a cane they won't keep their distance with it, I would close the gap my first opportunity, wrap up one or two of your arms, or redirect the cane (depending on how they are trying to use it) then beat the living snot out of them.
Have you ever actually sparred with someone trained in using a cane or short staff? I find that many people underestimate them. I could come up with counters to your proposed attack, but "internet sparring" is kind of pointless. I'll just say that a cane is not just a long, skinny club. With a some training it becomes a very effective striking, thrusting, parrying weapon, which can also be used as an adjunct to joint locks and throws. It will probably come down in the end to relative skill, but IMO having the cane is a force multiplier against a bare hands attack.

You can find modern day training in the cane in Hapkido and the similar short staff (jō) in Japanese MA like Aikido or some styles of Karate.

A skilles cane or stick fighter is well aware of the reason to maintain proper distance.

There was a book out in the 60's or 70's by Michael Echinnis on Cane fighting. I believe it was based on Boon Sang Do a Korean cane art. It was short and to the point and made a believer of me. He also had short books on stick fighting. Hmmm I wonder where all my books have gone? Take care.
ll

I down loaded a 1880's combat cane book and it filled with some good info.

Where did you find it?

it's Echanis and I believe you mean Basic Stick Fighting for Combat.

With Amazon Prime they are about $15.

I searched "canes and walking sticks" about ten percent of the first 60 books were at least partially on the use of canes or sticks in fighting.

I have one of his knife books somewhere I bought back when it came out.

-kBob

Where did you find it?
Ask and ye shall receive!

http://artofmanliness.com/2009/01/05/bartitsu-gentlemen/

http://lacannevigny.wordpress.com/

http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2002/jmanlyart_Barton-Wrighta_1202.htm