The Good Old Mail Order Days


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Clermont
January 4, 2012, 10:00 PM
The first advertisement for Hotchkiss machine guns, offered by Numrich Arms Company of West Hurley, New York, is from the November 1956 American Rifleman. The second advertisement for Boyes anti-tank rifles, offered by Ye Old Hunter of Arlington, Virginia, is also from the November 1956 American Rifleman. The third advertisement for Boyes anti-tank rifles, offered by Winfield Arms Corporation of Los Angeles, California, is also from the November 1956 American Rifleman. The fourth advertisement for unidentified WWII anti-tank cannons, offered by Potomac Arms Corporation of Alexandria, Virginia, is from the May 1965 Shooting Times. Only the Numrich Hotchkiss machine guns were deactivated, the rest were live and shootable.

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/Mercie-1.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/AT-1.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/Boyes-1.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/ATC-1.jpg

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crazy-mp
January 5, 2012, 12:09 AM
Less than a dollar a round for anti-tank ammo. Just think in 1956 minimum wage was raised to 1.00.

I wonder how many of those are still floating around that were never registered.

Midwest
January 5, 2012, 03:56 PM
Great post and I always enjoy seeing ads and hearing stories before the 1968 GCA. Does anyone want to attempt to guess what those items are selling for today? If they are still available?

Deltaboy
January 5, 2012, 05:13 PM
I remember my Grandpaw getting guns from Sears by Mail! It was great to run out and meet the Mailman and be handed a boxed Shotgun or Rifle.

Sobel
January 5, 2012, 07:18 PM
It looks like you could get a anti tank cannon of doom for the price of a Mosin nagant , how i wish i was alive in those days. Buy 4 give em to your kids sell em 4 generations later and your family will be rich.

Clermont
January 5, 2012, 07:55 PM
Here are other pre Gun Control Act of 1968 mail order advertisements.

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/GCA1967.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/GCA1965.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/GCA1966-1.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/GCA1968.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/GCA3.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/GCA2.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/CAI1.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/Win1.jpg

Midwest
January 5, 2012, 11:03 PM
1956 Gun Control

"...Note: With revolver orders enclose signed statement,"I am not an alien,have never been convicted of a crime of violence, am not under indictment or a fugitive. I am 21 years or over." ..." From the Winfield ads



Thank you for posting these...This is priceless

Ian
January 6, 2012, 02:07 AM
I had the chance to chat with an elderly gunnie recently who owned one of the mail order Lahtis for a while. He and a friend would do mag dumps from it - apparently when using the ski mounts on snow, 10 rounds will push you back about 6 feet. :)

crazyjennyblack
January 6, 2012, 03:35 AM
My dad was a young kid in the 1950's, and when I was growing up I used to ask him questions about what those days were like. One thing he always told me was that things were cheaper then, but people made alot less money. He told me a story about when he was a teenager in the 1960's and he wanted to get a really nice gift for his brother's college graduation. The gift cost $5, but that money was hard to come by, and his dad only brought home about $30 each month.

So yeah, those guns are way cheap compared to now (expecially compared to the percent of your income it would take to buy one these days), but back then I'm not so sure how many people, especially in the rural midwest, were able to drop $100 to buy a gun. That would have been more than a month's pay for my grandpa.

It'd be nice to see the "mail order days" come back, but honestly what I would rather see is a country based on sound financial practices, common sense, and people getting back to being more self-reliant. It seems we have about an equal chance of either one happening. :scrutiny:

Robert
January 7, 2012, 12:06 PM
A Long Lee for $20... ug I wish.

langenc
January 7, 2012, 03:22 PM
I had an acct w/ Western Gun & Sullpy in Lincoln, Nebraska.

Could order and gun (had to pay up front) wholesale and it would be on the back porch in about 8 days. Had to mail order both ways-and sometimes had to wait for check to clear-no plastic in those days-late 50s-early 60s.

Still have the Mossberg 22LR I bought myself for HS graduation ($28). The place I worked wanted to get me something for grad. I selected a Weaver B6-(3/4" tube). I could have gotten a K series (K4 or K6) but I didnt know they were buying. K6 then w/ mounts was less than $20, Id bet.

fehhkk
January 7, 2012, 04:01 PM
Wow, amazing!

I was just converting all these prices in my head by adding a zero to everything. :O

medalguy
January 7, 2012, 10:26 PM
I remember. I bought a brand new, unfired Brit Mk 5 Jungle Carbine from Klein's in Chicago for $29, had it mailed to me. Hey, I can also remember buying spam cans of carbine ammo from DCM and going down to the Railway Express office to pick it up.

About 1963 I drove up from South Carolina to Alexandria VA and went to Interarms to see what they had to offer. I bought a couple of rifles and on leaving, just next door to them, I saw some of those 25mm French artillery pieces for I think about $90. I was going to buy one and pull it back home but the tires were so bad both needed replacing. It was late in the day and I didn't have enough money to buy tires AND get a hotel for the night so I passed on the field piece. I still wonder if I made the right decision.

And I bought a Boyes AT rifle and several boxes of ammo at a gun show about 1966, and registered it along with a few other goodies in the amnesty in November 1968. Ah yes, those were the days.

mgregg85
January 7, 2012, 10:40 PM
Kinda sad to think about how many of those fine rifles were mangled with hacksaws and sandpaper and what not.

Prince Yamato
January 8, 2012, 10:47 AM
I don't know exact conversion prices but I don't think those ads were "deals" even back then. I'm pretty sure that $2X dollars for a rifle pre-68 was more than the $1xx we pay for mil surps when they hit the market. Also, the ammo was much more expensive back then.

theman838
January 9, 2012, 12:44 AM
The Mosin is just is just 60 less.

toivo
January 9, 2012, 01:18 AM
Cool ads! Before anybody goes gaga over the price, try adjusting for inflation.

$1 in 1960 = $7.46 in 2011

That $79 Enfield costs $589.34. The $49.95 Luger costs $372.63. Still really cool, though.

I grew up about 15 miles away from Numrich Arms. They used to have a howitzer on the highway next to the sign that showed you where to turn off to get to the store. It was rigged to shoot a little flame out of the muzzle at regular intervals. As a kid, I thought that was pretty cool. I don't remember when they took it away.

CajunBass
January 9, 2012, 07:27 AM
The first shotgun I bought, a Sears-Roebuck 12 ga double (Stevens 311, rebadged "Sears") sold for $79.95 in their catalog. I was 15-16 at the time, and my mother had to call and order it, but it was just delivered to the house, C.O.D. (Does anyone even ship "C.O.D." anymore? Probably not.). I also ordered a couple of boxes of shotgun shells (Sears/Ted Williams) and a brown canvas hunting coat. Total bill was probably still less than $100.00. This would have been in the mid 60's, just before the GCA 68 got passed.

I worked on a farm that summer to earn that money. Five dollars a day, 10-12 hour days. Of course grown ups made more, but that was big money back then for a kig growing up out in rural Virginia.

I see those Sears/Stevens 311's once in while still today. They seem to go for $350-400.00.

Saakee
January 9, 2012, 07:35 AM
I was 15-16 at the time, and my mother had to call and order it, but it was just delivered to the house, C.O.D. (Does anyone even ship "C.O.D." anymore? Probably not.).
I see CODs going in to gun shops all the time. Lots of warehouses send their stuff to retailers COD but home delivery is pretty unusual nowadays (aside from food delivery like pizza or chinese) i believe since the majority of organizations no longer have their own delivery services. Credit/Debit has mostly killed it though.

Clermont
January 9, 2012, 10:12 AM
I grew up about 15 miles away from Numrich Arms. They used to have a howitzer on the highway next to the sign that showed you where to turn off to get to the store. It was rigged to shoot a little flame out of the muzzle at regular intervals. As a kid, I thought that was pretty cool. I don't remember when they took it away.

The WWII cannon, on Route 28, was part of a billboard advertising Numrich Arms. It used propane and was timed to shoot a flame out of the barrel every minute or two. I suspect the Gun Control Act of 1968 was responsible for the cannon's removal. Numrich still has, I believe, two cannons kept on their property, outside of their facilities. Weather and time has taken its toll on these two cannons.

Midwest
January 9, 2012, 02:27 PM
February 1964

Zoogster
January 9, 2012, 03:59 PM
crazyjennyblack said:
One thing he always told me was that things were cheaper then, but people made alot less money. He told me a story about when he was a teenager in the 1960's and he wanted to get a really nice gift for his brother's college graduation. The gift cost $5, but that money was hard to come by, and his dad only brought home about $30 each month.

The federal minimum wage was raised to $1 in 1956.
That means at a 40 hour full time work week at minimum wage someone made $40 a week, minus taxes.
Or over $160 a month minus taxes, working minimum wage.
Not a lot but certainly not $30 a month. Maybe $30 spending money after bills. Most people don't work minimum wage either.


toivo said:
Cool ads! Before anybody goes gaga over the price, try adjusting for inflation.

$1 in 1960 = $7.46 in 2011

That $79 Enfield costs $589.34. The $49.95 Luger costs $372.63. Still really cool, though.


Now lets compare a Mosin listed for $20 back then, with today's minimum wage of $7.25.
Back then it took 20 hours working minimum wage to buy the Mosin.
Today it is around $100 retail, regularly seen for $90 on sale.
Today it would take 13.79 hours working minimum wage to buy that rifle.

However a Mosin back then was probably a more desirable technology when bolt actions were more dominant than semi-autos and an inexpensive slightly less accurate bolt action not much of a sacrifice.
So its not a straight inflation comparison, as a bolt action of moderate accuracy is not in high demand today.
The Mosin was first made in 1891, produced in massive numbers to arm the Czars forces, and still produced into the 1960s, and was the standard rifle and fielded in WW2 by the Soviets.
It was the mass produced Russian Empire/Soviet rifle.
It was a cheap rifle out of date as of about WW2, when semi-auto came to dominate.
So by the 1950s it was only retired for around a decade, and was at most a 60 year old design.

So compare it to something similar today. Can someone today get an inexpensive milsurp semi-auto rifle, for about 20 hours of work at minimum wage? A 10-60 year old design and model that was mass produced? $145?
No way.
Of course part of that is because civilians cannot legally own or import most more recent milsurp rifles produced at low cost, because they were designed select-fire. Otherwise you probably could get an AK-47 that had been retired from service for close to that cost.
So the 1950s Mosin equivalent of today, a mulsurp AK-47 is out of reach.
And a sheet metal AK-47 shooting an intermediate power cartridge likely costs less to make in massive numbers than the Mosin Nagant using full power ammunition did in its time.
Yet you still can't get the kind of deal on milsurp today that you could back then.

So you cannot just compare straight across the board. The technology displayed on those adds was more recent and more in demand, and while milsurp in huge numbers post World Wars, commanded higher prices for the rifle itself (not the collector's value of some of them today.)

Ragnar Danneskjold
January 9, 2012, 04:33 PM
Clermon, not to derail your thread, but is there a reason why the font in all of your posts is so big?

Clermont
January 9, 2012, 04:50 PM
Clermon, not to derail your thread, but is there a reason why the font in all of your posts is so big?

The font in the opening thread was a little larger than I wanted but I think the size of the rest are okay, for those of us who require glasses to read small print, for easy reading. How is this size, better? I can adjust.

Strykervet
January 9, 2012, 05:08 PM
Dude, this is one GREAT thread. A classic. The pictures and fliers are what did it. Just makes you sick. I had an old Sears ad for a Tommy gun (great for home or on the ranch!) with an old timer on the front porch of his shack holding his Chicago Typewriter at the hip. I wish I still had it, it would be nice to add here.

Makes you wonder what some of this junk will be going for later on. I've already decided to invest in arms and not gold, I know more about it and it is a lot harder to steal someone's guns than it is their gold --not to mention the fact I missed out on the gold steal, the buy time was right about the time Bush took office or in the '90's. At the moment, I'm banking on what the Smith and Wesson 3rd gen. autos will be worth in 30 years, because in 30 years they'll most likely all be plastic save a few 1911's.

Strykervet
January 9, 2012, 05:10 PM
Cool ads! Before anybody goes gaga over the price, try adjusting for inflation.

$1 in 1960 = $7.46 in 2011

That $79 Enfield costs $589.34. The $49.95 Luger costs $372.63. Still really cool, though.

I grew up about 15 miles away from Numrich Arms. They used to have a howitzer on the highway next to the sign that showed you where to turn off to get to the store. It was rigged to shoot a little flame out of the muzzle at regular intervals. As a kid, I thought that was pretty cool. I don't remember when they took it away.
Yeah, but they were nicer too. Nobody was looking under tables for the junk boxes yet.

Clermont
January 9, 2012, 05:49 PM
I believe the prices of mail order military surplus firearms in the 1960s were bargains, regardless of one's earnings, when compared to buying a commercially manufactured firearm. In 1960, I purchased a Number 4 British .303 Short Magazine Lee Enfield(SMLE) for $19.95. The following year, I purchased a discounted new Winchester Model 70 standard rifle in 30-06 for $101.00. In 1964 or 65, I purchased an unfired 8 mm Iranian Mauser carbine for $50.00. The military rifles being a fraction of the cost of the Winchester Model 70.

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/HL2-1.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/HL2.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/HL3-1.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/HL4-1.jpg

Cluster Bomb
January 9, 2012, 10:51 PM
every time i see ads like this, i think to my self. I wish i had a time machine. lol.

but you need to remember. People didnt make alot of money then. Things wer cheaper in retrospect than many things are now.

Midwest
January 11, 2012, 02:22 PM
One of the last mail order ads...August 1968

Ingsoc75
January 12, 2012, 09:30 AM
What? No AK/SKS rifles????? :D:D:D

Clermont
January 12, 2012, 01:27 PM
The first two page, side by side, advertisement for Hunters Lodge appeared in the December 1960 American Rifleman.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/HL1.jpg
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/YOH1.jpg
Winfield Arms' advertisement was from the January 1960 American Rifleman.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/WA1.jpg
N.F. Strebe's advertisement appeared in the December 1960 American Rifleman.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/NFS.jpg
Klein's advertisement came out of the January 1960 American Rifleman. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald purchased mail order, from Klein's, the Mannlicher Carcano used in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/K.jpg

Batty67
January 12, 2012, 01:57 PM
Great thread, I'd love to have several USGI M1 carbines in excellent shape for those prices, adjusted for inflation and they'd still be 50% or so cheaper than they go for these days.

351 WINCHESTER
January 12, 2012, 02:22 PM
Those were the days. When I started working full time I was bringing home just north of $100. a week in 1969 which wasn't bad considering I was still living with my partents. You could buy a brand new corolla for less than 2K, gas was 19 cents, krystal burgers were 10 cents.

Perforate
January 12, 2012, 03:51 PM
This is totally awesome! It must have been great to live back then!

gfanikf
June 6, 2012, 03:03 AM
Reminds me of the ads for this one Philly Gun Shop in the last issues of The Bulletin except instead of cheap surplus...full auto. Looking over that as a kid (who grew up in a no gun house hold)...it was like looking at the coolest thing ever.

wally
June 6, 2012, 11:33 AM
Did I read it right? 20 rounds of 7.62x39 for $5

A Johnson .30-'06 for $60!!!! these have done way better than inflation!

mdauben
June 6, 2012, 07:01 PM
Cool! Its loads of fun browsing those old ads. I can vaguely remember seeing those sorts of things back when I was a pre-GCA kid. ;)

Clermont
June 6, 2012, 08:29 PM
These are three pre Gun Control Act of 1968 mail-order Luger advertisements from the 1960s.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/GS1.jpg
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/GS3.jpg
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/WM2.jpg

gfanikf
June 6, 2012, 09:20 PM
Cool! Its loads of fun browsing those old ads. I can vaguely remember seeing those sorts of things back when I was a pre-GCA kid. ;)
Kind of makes me sad. lol

Clermont thanks for posting these!

I guess with C&R this kind of lives on.

gfanikf
June 6, 2012, 09:32 PM
Holy crap, Century Arms...I saw stuff about 50 years on their site, but I only just made a connection now...man why can't they get diverse offerings like this again!

kimbershot
June 6, 2012, 09:37 PM
full size autos--top line pontiacs, buicks--less than 4k. corvettes--5-6k. my only regrets are that i woulda, coulda, shoulda got a tommy gun:banghead:-oh well:what:

BullfrogKen
June 6, 2012, 10:47 PM
Very cool ads.


Did I read it right? 20 rounds of 7.62x39 for $5

Considering that one can buy one box of 20 rounds of Wolf for $5.99 today (on sale) . . . those are some pretty expensive AK rounds "back in the day".


See, the things is that with a lot of these old surplus guns, you couldn't get ammo for them, and the rifle reflected that price. So . . . imagine I offered a big batch of surplus K31 Swiss rifles in 7.5 x 55 for $150.00. And . . . reloading is not as common as it is today. The tools needed easily exceed the cost of the rifle.

Is it still a great bargain?


That's the situation many of these surplus rifles sold in. The ammo was of foreign manufacture, and supply was unreliable. The cost to buy tools to reload it was prohibitive. Say . . . $120.00 to buy the dies for it. And you still needed to come up with the brass.


It's not hard to see why some of these rifles sold for such a "bargain". For all practical purposes they were not being bought as shooters, except for the rare few who reloaded and would shoot them enough to justify buying dies that cost just as much as the rifle.


Given a choice between living then and living now, I'll choose now thank you very much.

Deltaboy
June 6, 2012, 11:07 PM
It saddens me that we can't still do this today.

GCBurner
June 6, 2012, 11:16 PM
I got one of those "NRA Good" condition $59 Walther P-38 pistols from that Hunter's Lodge ad just before the GCA of 1968 closed down mail-order sales. It functioned okay, and had the WWII Mauser manufacturers' markings, but the barrel was almost shot smooth, and it shot 18" groups at 25 yards. I sold it a couple of years later for $100, and didn't get another Walther until just a couple of years ago when the German police turn-ins started showing up. My new one is in considerably better shape, with sharp rifling, and came with two spare mags and a police holster for about $300. Comparatively speaking, I think my new one was the better deal, and it keeps everything in about 4" at 25 yards.

Swing
June 6, 2012, 11:39 PM
Oh, my. That's why its called "the good old days."

BBDartCA
June 7, 2012, 12:19 AM
Great posts! Nice to have a time machine ...

images found on the web
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/guns_1959-tfb.png
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/OldGunAds/20mmSolothurnAd1957.jpg
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/OldGunAds/YeOldHunter_ARmar1962.JPG
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/OldGunAds/Winfield_ARjuly1959.JPG

BBDartCA
June 7, 2012, 12:25 AM
more
http://davestopher.com/images/Small%20arms/misc/machinegun_ads_1960s.jpg
http://davestopher.com/images/Small%20arms/misc/machinegun_ads_1960s_2.jpg
http://davestopher.com/images/Small%20arms/misc/machinegun_ads_1960s_3.jpg

gfanikf
June 7, 2012, 12:37 AM
So what was the process of buying a machine gun by the mail before the GCA? I mean you still had to pay a stamp tax, but nothing besides a DEWAT (deactivated war trophy) is mentioned anywhere In the ads.

Swing
June 7, 2012, 01:05 AM
Be still, my heart. That MG ad is pure wonderfulness.

Snag
June 7, 2012, 01:08 AM
I so want a time machine right now.

Clermont
June 7, 2012, 08:20 AM
Prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968, dewat machine guns were unregulated, no paperwork. If I remember correctly, the only requirement was that the dealer selling a dewat was required to record information on the original purchaser. The problem with dewats was that dewats were easily restored to full auto, eventually requiring registration in the GCA. This is an article, from the December 1955 American Rifleman, on the Internal Revenue Service's deactivation program.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/Dewat-1.jpg

BBDartCA
June 7, 2012, 10:23 AM
We lust over this stuff now. But watch out ... 30 years from now you could have people lusting over pictures of people being able to buy a gun, period.

gfanikf
June 7, 2012, 10:43 AM
Prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968, dewat machine guns were unregulated, no paperwork. If I remember correctly, the only requirement was that the dealer selling a dewat was required to record information on the original purchaser. The problem with dewats was that dewats were easily restored to full auto, eventually requiring registration in the GCA. This is an article, from the December 1955 American Rifleman, on the Internal Revenue Service's deactivation program.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/Dewat-1.jpg
Thanks Clermont, that actually explains a lot. So most of the ads were for dewats, and then some does all the work to reactivate it on their end, does that sound correct?

jrdolall
June 7, 2012, 10:54 AM
They would have sold a lot more guns if they had put these specials on the internet rather than these print ads:)

Clermont
June 7, 2012, 11:59 AM
Thanks Clermont, that actually explains a lot. So most of the ads were for dewats, and then some does all the work to reactivate it on their end, does that sound correct?

That is correct but the problem, with the Internal Revenue Service, was that some dewats were being reactivated but not registered.

gfanikf
June 7, 2012, 12:02 PM
They would have sold a lot more guns if they had put these specials on the internet rather than these print ads:)
LOL!

Like I said I tend to think of C&R as a continuation of this (just no new registered mg). Heck, I think the Internet has helped circumvent the "mail order ban" even for regular guns, yes you need an FFL, but people have the variety and price selection that existed post GCA pre Internet for most consumers. Then again they also did have the George HW Bush Semi Auto Import Ban to deal with...and other nonsense.

D Rat
June 7, 2012, 01:02 PM
IIRR
Klein's was the store wear Lee Harvy Oswald got the Carcono that killer JFK

D Rat
June 7, 2012, 01:13 PM
The first shotgun I bought, a Sears-Roebuck 12 ga double (Stevens 311, rebadged "Sears") sold for $79.95 in their catalog. I was 15-16 at the time, and my mother had to call and order it, but it was just delivered to the house, C.O.D. (Does anyone even ship "C.O.D." anymore? Probably not.). I also ordered a couple of boxes of shotgun shells (Sears/Ted Williams) and a brown canvas hunting coat. Total bill was probably still less than $100.00. This would have been in the mid 60's, just before the GCA 68 got passed.

I worked on a farm that summer to earn that money. Five dollars a day, 10-12 hour days. Of course grown ups made more, but that was big money back then for a kig growing up out in rural Virginia.

I see those Sears/Stevens 311's once in while still today. They seem to go for $350-400.00.

The first shotgun I bought was a Springfield 12Ga.pump from Sears-Roebuck 1965-payed 63.00 OTD ,I also have one of the canves hunting coat's 1950s
Sure miss those days.
D Rat

gfanikf
June 7, 2012, 01:57 PM
That is correct but the problem, with the Internal Revenue Service, was that some dewats were being reactivated but not registered.
Okay I understand. What was the process though for a straight mg sale at the time? I know it's arcane, but I'm interested in what forms were used (CLEO was still needed I realize)...and heck what the turn around time was since there were no FFLs involved or needed. I'm a lawyer and history dork so procedural things like this are of interest (and I suspect only of interest) to me.

wally
June 7, 2012, 02:32 PM
IIRR
Klein's was the store wear Lee Harvy Oswald got the Carcono that killer JFK
Yes its true and it was traced back to Oswald without needing anything other than normal business records of who bought it and where they mailed it to! IIRR, it was "traced" well before Ruby assassinated Oswald.

Midwest
June 7, 2012, 02:55 PM
Okay I understand. What was the process though for a straight mg sale at the time? I know it's arcane, but I'm interested in what forms were used (CLEO was still needed I realize)...and heck what the turn around time was since there were no FFLs involved or needed. I'm a lawyer and history dork so procedural things like this are of interest (and I suspect only of interest) to me.
I would like to know as well, I study gun control laws and like to know how these things evolved.

Prince Yamato
June 7, 2012, 09:11 PM
It was the same process as now, you just wouldn't go through an ffl.

1. Buy gun
2. Fill out form 4
3. Get LEO sign off
4. Send $200 check to ATF
5. Wait a long time
6. Pick up MG.

The only difference would be you didn't need to do a 4473. It would be like a "FTF" mg sale.

Dr.Rob
June 7, 2012, 09:46 PM
Those old ads make me wistful. I realize a dollar bought more then but Colt and SW 1917's for $30? Ah those were the days.

Not to mention MG's and such. The buckets of Lugers and 1911's available just boggles the mind.

leadcounsel
June 8, 2012, 03:29 AM
Someday we'll look back at 2011 being the glory days of gun ownership...

"We could CCW practically anywhere..."

"You could order a C&R and have it shipped to your door; Mosins were only $90 and C&R rifles and pistols were plentiful... you could get K31s, Mausers, SKS, etc..."

"Ammo was still easy to find, and you could buy it by the case without taking out a loan..."

"You could buy and sell a gun face to face with others without the need for a NICS check."

Enjoy these times while they last... I suspect they may disappear soon...

andrewstorm
June 8, 2012, 11:59 AM
"Someday we'll look back at 2011 being the glory days of gun ownership."..

.....To strip citizens of their rights,.......i beg to differ with you lead council....I think were going back to lesser restrictions on gun ownership and constitutional carry......at least in some states.by the way this is 2012...LOL

wally
June 9, 2012, 02:41 PM
Enjoy these times while they last... I suspect they may disappear soon...

Only if we let them! You gotta fight for your rights!

We did a horrible job of it in the 60's on, until Bill Clinton's actions woke everyone up.

leadcounsel
June 9, 2012, 02:50 PM
I certainly hope that comment about being lazy and indifferent wasn't directed at me...

I've served the USA in the Army on multiple combat deployments, am a lifelong member of the NRA, and vote 'pro gun.'

Clermont
June 9, 2012, 04:31 PM
This mail order advertisement, from the August 1963 American Rifleman, for Klein's Sporting Goods includes the Mannlicher Carcano Lee that Harvey Oswald purchased from Klein's to use in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22nd of that year. Perhaps it was this advertisement that prompted Oswald to order the Carcano. You will notice, in the advertisement, that the photos for the Carcano and the Mk5 No.1 jungle carbine are switched. Milton Klein, owner of Klein's Sporting Goods, also co-founded Gun Digest in 1944.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/Kleins.jpg

Gunnerboy
June 16, 2012, 02:34 PM
These ads make me so sad that i can never experiance the great gun deals of yesteryear.

mboylan
June 17, 2012, 11:38 PM
So what was the process of buying a machine gun by the mail before the GCA? I mean you still had to pay a stamp tax, but nothing besides a DEWAT (deactivated war trophy) is mentioned anywhere In the ads.
You had to go through a similar process as today. $200 was at least 2 weeks pay for most people. Trusts were not accepted. You had to get a CLEO signoff. Most would tell you to pound sand.

Clermont
June 18, 2012, 06:31 PM
Here is another mail order advertisement, from the March 1963 American Rifleman, for the Eastern Firearms Company of New Brunswick, New Jersey.
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo11/Clermontny/Eastern-70.jpg

Owen Sparks
June 18, 2012, 11:39 PM
There was a time when you could mail order a Colt made Thompson gun, if you could afford it. They cost $200. Factor in inflation and that is the equivelant of about $2,500 in 2012 dollars!
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
That was a lot during the great depression.

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