What could be done differently -- Non-Guns Color Coded?


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Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 4, 2012, 11:11 PM
http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20120104/US.Texas.Student.Shot/?cid=


Please read this entire article and voice up what you feel could be done to prevent things such as this. It is truly sad when things such as this happen. It's fairly obvious from the statements and such that the young man was committing suicide by cop but still what do you feel the population could do to differentiate between these pellet guns and the real thing. The little red plastic endcaps and stuff are just not cutting it. The kids just tear them off or paint them. I personally do not see the use in making these BB and Pellet guns to completely mimic the real thing. If you want your kids to have a practice handgun, get them a .22 (many makers out there that are full sized) and teach them properly. Too many kids have been shot in the past few years over these damn things. I can't blame the LEO's in any way shape form or fashion. I too would feel I would have to fire if one was lifted towards me. It's just sad that it happens. Kids are naturally retarded. We all know it, we all were retarded at one time or another. It's just a fact of life. They take these toys out to "fool their buddies" and be "Big Bad Boy on the Block" and end up getting fired on by real weapons. If someone could show me ONE, just ONE, actual reason to have these things please do so. I am tired of seeing our kids getting shot because of them.

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Evil Monkey
January 4, 2012, 11:29 PM
natural selection.

act dumb? You die.

NavyLCDR
January 4, 2012, 11:44 PM
Make it illegal to bring toy or real guns to school.

Oh, wait, it already is.

Nothing is ever going to prevent stuff like this.... stuff happens.

dev_null
January 5, 2012, 12:21 AM
The picture I saw -- assuming they showed the actual one he used -- showed a pistol that looked like a Glock, and no red cap.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 5, 2012, 12:32 AM
natural selection.

act dumb? You die.

Evil Monkey, I sure hope you don't have kids with that attitude.

Make it illegal to bring toy or real guns to school.

Oh, wait, it already is.

Nothing is ever going to prevent stuff like this.... stuff happens.

Navy, I am not just talking about taking them to schools. I am trying to figure out WHY they even exist. What is the reasoning behind having these BB/Pellet guns that are exact replicas to the real thing. You put a real gun to a kid and teach them responsible behavior with such. But parents seem to not feel the need to teach responsible behavior with these replicas. They seem to feel that their children can't get hurt with them since they are "just a toy". If you google "Child shot by police while holding a toy gun" and you get HUNDREDS of hits.

I see 2 things that need to happen, 1- Find a way to seriously differentiate these things from the real thing so they are easily identifiable by LEO's. 2- Parents need to start realizing that these things actually CAN get their kids KILLED.

Bobson
January 5, 2012, 12:37 AM
Unfortunately, suicide by cop is as much of an act of suicide as swallowing an entire package of pills, or shooting oneself in the head. Suicide, like theft, is never going to be completely preventable. If someone is determined enough, they'll succeed. And there's no way this 15 year old guy (I refuse to call him a "kid") didn't realize what he was doing. He meant for himself to be killed.

The problem here isn't toy guns that look like real guns. The problem is suicide in general. Having said that, I absolutely agree that parents need to be more involved in their kids' lives, their kids' possessions, etc; but it's not a fix for this problem.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 5, 2012, 12:41 AM
I personally do not see the use in making these BB and Pellet guns to completely mimic the real thing.

Because those that play Airsoft don't want to have airsoft guns that look like toys, they want real looking ones to further the experience. You come from real guns so you don't know what's it's like. Even some real shooters such as IDPA and other kinds practice with Airsoft guns in their house. They aren't going to want some green and yellow raygun looking thing, they want something that resembles the gun they use.

I see 2 things that need to happen, 1- Find a way to seriously differentiate these things from the real thing so they are easily identifiable by LEO's


You mean paint the tips orange like they already are? A lot of times the tips are painted or removed, even if it was illegal to do that yourself, it's already illegal to make threats with one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4MFUufR_4Y&feature=channel_video_title

These people in Scotland hold airsoft wars all the time on a large scale. Do you think they wouldn't mind having their guns orange? The problem isn't what the toy looks like but those that wield it. THEY ALONE make the choice to carry it and brandish it, not the gun's realistic appearance.

JohnKSa
January 5, 2012, 12:42 AM
I personally do not see the use in making these BB and Pellet guns to completely mimic the real thing.They don't have to be BB or Pellet guns, they could just be plastic toys.

Even if they're not made to mimic some particular gun model, they can still be mistaken for a real gun. Not every cop out there is an expert on guns, nor will they always get a chance to examine the "gun" carefully. That means anything shaped like a gun painted black could pass for a real gun.

Even if you outlaw any toys that remotely look like guns, it still won't stop it. Kids are smart enough to make their own if they're serious about it.

Or they can just use their cell phones like this guy did. It didn't look much like a gun but it sure got him shot multiple times...

http://youtu.be/ruQmcQgolM0

Trying to control behavior by controlling objects is always a losing battle. Most gun owners realize this instinctively.

Bobson
January 5, 2012, 12:46 AM
Trying to control behavior by controlling objects is always a losing battle.
Great sentence to sum this up nicely, IMO. I couldn't agree more. It's not an object problem. It's a people problem.

tooltech
January 5, 2012, 12:46 AM
Navy, I am not just talking about taking them to schools. I am trying to figure out WHY they even exist. What is the reasoning behind having these BB/Pellet guns that are exact replicas to the real thing. You put a real gun to a kid and teach them responsible behavior with such. But parents seem to not feel the need to teach responsible behavior with these replicas. They seem to feel that their children can't get hurt with them since they are "just a toy". If you google "Child shot by police while holding a toy gun" and you get HUNDREDS of hits.

One reason for them is as a training aid. There are many pellet and / or airsoft handguns made to the same scale as popular handguns. They allow you to perform holster and target acquisition drills in your living room.

jerkface11
January 5, 2012, 12:48 AM
If someone could show me ONE, just ONE, actual reason to have these things please do so.

So now we have to justify how our property looks because someone might do something stupid with it?

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 5, 2012, 12:51 AM
One reason for them is as a training aid. There are many pellet and / or airsoft handguns made to the same scale as popular handguns. They allow you to perform holster and target acquisition drills in your living room.

I just unload my gun for that unless you've set up a range for airsoft.

Evil Monkey
January 5, 2012, 01:06 AM
Evil Monkey, I sure hope you don't have kids with that attitude.

I don't have kids.

But the way I see it, with million of kids existing in our society. There MUST be some that will die early because they're stupid. It's just the way it is. Not all the millions of kids will make correct decisions. Some just have to die and there's nothing we can do about it.

Kids are dying all the time in this country. They're falling down the stairs and breaking their necks. They're playing with fire. They're not wearing helmets when riding a bike or skateboarding. They're running in traffic. There's no end to how it can happen.

forindooruseonly
January 5, 2012, 01:29 AM
What can be done differently? Teach your kids to not do such things, and if possible, positively influence your kids' friends. Volunteer for community services at the YMCA or Big Brother/Big Sister. Try to educate them as to consequences of behavior and provide some type of discourse that helps them realize that when you are 15, you have a whole life to look forward to. That is where to start.

Legislation will always be ignored. Suicide is possible through any number of means. To go on a Quixotic crusade against the windmills of toy gun manufacturers is not the solution. Neither is demanding something different from the police officers. When someone is threatening another person with what appears to be a firearm, it is inexcusable to expect the victim *which is the person being threatened* to differentiate between a toy, an unloaded firearm, a mock firearm made out of wood and painted black, ect. There might not be time to ponder the question. So they have the right to react as if it was real.

Change starts at home. It's sad that he felt his life was so bad and that the only way out was to commit such an act. Maybe it was a case where he felt he had to have more attention or prove himself in some twisted fashion. And it's a shame that no one was in touch enough to see it coming, or didn't take it seriously. I read this and wonder what his home life was like. Was his Godmother taking care of him? What relationship did he have with his parents?

A qualification to that, however. Sometimes, people do things that no one saw or could have seen coming. It happens. And the last thing to blame is the tool used - because there are always alternatives.

ms6852
January 5, 2012, 01:45 AM
I do not know what could be done differently. My wife was a teacher for 38 years and to sum it up, sometimes they are just bad kids coming from bad parents. In my opinion todays kids do not know the value of anything especially life. Parents lavish them with everything they never had, or some parents do no want to take the time to constantly get in their face and make sure the walk a righteous path.

I feel for the cop that had to shoot the child and we can just assume what his state of mind was at that moment and what it is now. We never know what the childs intents was, but if you were there would you have wanted to make a decision that would had led to more school children being shot or just end the threat after several repeated attempts to calm and disarm the individual failed.

I feel that our country should hold children and everyone accountable for their actions. Their comes a time when a juvenile knows he or she is doing wrong but because the law protects them, they still commit the crime.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 5, 2012, 04:43 AM
These people in Scotland hold airsoft wars all the time on a large scale. Do you think they wouldn't mind having their guns orange? The problem isn't what the toy looks like but those that wield it. THEY ALONE make the choice to carry it and brandish it, not the gun's realistic appearance.

If it would keep a child safer by these toys being bright freaking purple with neon signs saying "I'M A TOY GUN then hell YES. I couldn't give one tinkers damn what adults want to choose to play with in their little weekend warrior games. If a grown ass man wants to carry a toy around and play big shot then so be it. My problem is with KIDS taking these things out and getting shot because of it! There is not ONE SINGLE damn use for these to be so realistic looking.

They don't have to be BB or Pellet guns, they could just be plastic toys.

Even if they're not made to mimic some particular gun model, they can still be mistaken for a real gun. Not every cop out there is an expert on guns, nor will they always get a chance to examine the "gun" carefully. That means anything shaped like a gun painted black could pass for a real gun.

Even if you outlaw any toys that remotely look like guns, it still won't stop it. Kids are smart enough to make their own if they're serious about it.

Or they can just use their cell phones like this guy did. It didn't look much like a gun but it sure got him shot multiple times...

http://youtu.be/ruQmcQgolM0

Trying to control behavior by controlling objects is always a losing battle. Most gun owners realize this instinctively.

Valid points John. Yes it is hard in the heat of the moment to differentiate just about anything held in the hand. But you still aren't getting my meaning here. The parents are led to believe that these things are completely safe and such. Yes the toy in and of itself is perfectly safe, the LOOKS of the toy are not. With the parents being misled and uninformed, the KIDS are the ones suffering. All of my kids, as well as my grandkids, have been raised around working firearms and all have been taught firearm safety starting from when they could reach there little hands out. The problem is, in todays world, thats a rarity. The parents today see these toys as a compromise to the real thing and under the false impression of total safety, they turn them loose with them.

So now we have to justify how our property looks because someone might do something stupid with it?

Absolutely! When it comes to the safety of children, YES! Anything and everything should be done that is humanly possible to protect them. I teach all my kids firearm safety and how to handle firearms to PROTECT them. Take away the curiosity factor and show them the destructive force of firearms and you will have a well taught child that will respect them and handle them safely.

Evil Monkey, it is a relief that you have not reproduced. Your views on child safety being "survival of the fittest rules" are one of the reasons this world and our children are like they are. Please join a monastery and follow the celibacy rules if nothing else.

Evil Monkey
January 5, 2012, 05:33 AM
There is not ONE SINGLE damn use for these to be so realistic looking.

I think you're on the wrong forum.

Try this one out.
www.bradycampaign.org

Deus Machina
January 5, 2012, 05:38 AM
Evil Monkey, it is a relief that you have not reproduced. Your views on child safety being "survival of the fittest rules" are one of the reasons this world and our children are like they are.

I dare say that it quite honestly is not one of the reasons. One of the reasons the world and out children are the way they are is that 1) we now make laws so that Darwinian law does not hold reign and 2) parents aren't parenting.

I had toy guns like this. I also had parents that made it extremely clear not to point it at at anyone that is not made perfectly aware that it is a toy because even the little plastic BB's could put an eye out, and that police were within their rights to draw a real gun on me because they could not tell the difference, and would be justified in their fear of blindness even if they could.

The look of the toy aside, quote, "the teen was pointing the weapon at officers and "had plenty of opportunities to lower the gun and listen to the officers' orders, and he didn't want to."" is an act of stupidity if not outright suicide. Yes, it sucks, and I feel for the officer and the family. This was entirely his fault, and I guarantee you that if he was suicidal he would have brought a knife and threatened the officer with no expectation to actually harm him. If he wasn't suicidal, he would have listened to the commands.

If I had gotten shot doing this, the headline would be ' "He should have listened to the officer," says victim's father. '

Anything and everything should be done that is humanly possible to protect them.

Skinned knees, burned fingers, and the occasional schoolyard brawl is how we learn. It teaches us to watch where we walk lest we trip, check what we grab lest we get burned, and not to talk bad about our peers lest we get suckerpunched. I'm not saying that we should not take reasonable precautions against death or serious harm but how many children today do you know that will say 'please' and 'thank you' instead of 'gimme', and will check both ways before crossing the road? These are things we learned in kindergarten, not high school.

The reason: my teachers and caretakers would warn me and explain, then if it hurt, it hurt, and it was my fault. We didn't have the benefits of parents warning us not to run around the monkeybars, knocking out heads, and the plastic coveres prevent the pain. We didn't have the benefit of having free reign to say what we will about Timmy's mother because he will get detention (expelled, now!) if he takes a swing at us. And now, parents don't even feel the need to warn their children because there are no consequences.

The parents today see these toys as a compromise to the real thing and under the false impression of total safety, they turn them loose with them.

There. You said it yourself. Blame the cause, not the objects. See the post above. So... what exactly is the issue with the toys?

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 08:22 AM
Absolutely! When it comes to the safety of children, YES! Anything and everything should be done that is humanly possible to protect them. Down this road lies destruction.

You are very upset at the idea that this fake gun led to a young man's death. But you're glossing over the most salient point:

This young man wanted to die, and he followed through on it and got his wish.

It should not greatly disturb us that he chose a fake gun -- or that a fake "enough" gun existed -- to enact his wish. If it had not been that, it would have been with a rope, pills, stepping in front of a bus, jumping off a bridge...whatever. The result is the same.

Suicide is disturbing, but has been part of human culture just about forever. You cannot legislate it away. Putting us all in giant inflatable bubbles so we can't possibly hurt ourselves or each other -- even on purpose -- isn't realistic.

Life is dangerous. It ALWAYS ends with death. It is often sad, scary, and disheartening. But we can't write enough laws to change that one little bit.

You're blaming the existence of a toy gun for a kid's death. And that's not intellectually honest. You're lying to yourself and pretending that you/we/the government can control something that simply cannot be controlled. (Certainly not taking anything away from the psychological sciences which may someday be able to screen and medicate away depression and suicidal tendencies ... but that's not our field here at THR, and not within the scope of the original question.)

Be honest with yourself. Accept life as it is -- rough, sad, tragic ... sometimes -- and don't swallow that placebo pill of "doing something for the children." That is merely a cheap way of assuaging your own feeling of powerlessness. Don't fall for it, and don't accept it from others. We ARE powerless against this -- and we should be "man enough" to admit it and accept it.

Remllez
January 5, 2012, 09:43 AM
Sam1911 couldn't have said it any better in my opinion.

jerkface11
January 5, 2012, 11:52 AM
Absolutely! When it comes to the safety of children, YES! Anything and everything should be done that is humanly possible to protect them.

I'll start keeping other peoples kids safe when they start paying me to.

bikemutt
January 5, 2012, 12:26 PM
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017163257_apustexasstudentshot.html

Sad story which made me wonder if it wouldn't be sensible to somehow make non-firearm guns like pellet guns, BB guns etc. easily identifiable?

I suppose if they were made to look like the blue replica training guns no one would buy them.

I'd think though, if the cops in this story new for a fact the gun was capable of firing only pellets, the kid would still be alive today, albeit with a sore butt and a juvenile record. Not to mention the cops who I'm sure wished the story had a different ending.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 5, 2012, 12:26 PM
Absolutely! When it comes to the safety of children, YES! Anything and everything should be done that is humanly possible to protect them.

Hmm, Where have I heard that before?

Noah
January 5, 2012, 12:43 PM
If the kid wouldn't listen to police, and he had a pellet gun (that can kill small animals, mind you) designed to look exactly like a real pistol, and kicker here, he wouldn't drop it when the police told him to...

If you make them be painted blue, then what stops a criminal from painting his stolen gun blue and then using the hesitation it causes to shoot an LEO or citizen?

Let's face it, don't go in public brandishing an airsoft, toy, BB or pellet gun. Especially not in a school. And if you do, listen to an LEO when they tell you drop it.

Granted, it would be nice if the officers had used a Taser or Less Lethal Shotgun round, but for all they knew, this was a madmen about to start executing every student in the school.

roadchoad
January 5, 2012, 12:47 PM
Ditto what Noah said.

RaceM
January 5, 2012, 12:51 PM
You can't fix stupid, or idiot-proof the planet.

Skribs
January 5, 2012, 01:00 PM
This is too common to earn a Darwin award...

Airsoft is what it is. They paint the tips orange, it's not the fault of whoever changes it. BB guns don't have tips orange, but then they actually are potentially dangerous.

I use an airsoft gun at home instead of a .22 at the range for practice. Anyone with a couple of empty soda cans and a TV tray can set up a range, it's really not that difficult. And yes, I want it to be as real as possible so it is a better training aid.

As to this situation - I didn't read the article, but did he hurt anyone else, or just himself? I may sound callous, but I'm mostly concerned with the former in these types of situations. Since he had only an airsoft gun, I'll assume not.

bikemutt
January 5, 2012, 01:05 PM
Good points.

I just can't imagine a kid that age wanting suicide-by-cop, but if not that, what on earth could he have been thinking? Just can't believe someone being that stupid.

SharkHat
January 5, 2012, 01:10 PM
You could quickly slap some plywood together, cut out a blocky and generic pistol profile, paint it black. If you were brandishing it in a dark alley, I'd wager it could probably easily be mistaken for a Glock to an untrained eye.

Color coding the toys doesn't solve anything. Unless you also take black paint off the market, it's not very hard to paint over them.

ms6852
January 5, 2012, 01:18 PM
Adding more regulations to an industry whose very vague regulations that they have to follow from the ATF will not solve anything, no more than the 10 day waiting period does in many states. If a person is intent on committing a crime, all the regulations and laws that are passed do not apply to this one individual at this time.

If laws are passed to color code non lethal weapons who is to say than you cannot camouflage your AR15 or tactical rifle with Krylon paint.

JRH6856
January 5, 2012, 01:20 PM
A pellet gun is not a firearm, but it is a weapon and can inflict serious injury. Some are more powerful than others, but shot placement is everything and losing an eye or two is not a minor injury. So I wouldn't think they should be coded the same as non-firing training guns as they are more dangerous.

At the same time, there are already firearms out there that are all colors of the rainbow so it may be too late to color code anything.

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 01:29 PM
Threads merged.

bikemutt
January 5, 2012, 01:32 PM
Yup, I think you are correct the color-coding horse has already escaped the corral.

I've got to believe every 15 year old kid in America knows by now not to bring any weapon to school, be it a Leatherman or an AK. So, maybe this kid really was that stupid.

It sounds like the family is extra upset about the shot he to took to the back of the head, but that's another story.

JRH6856
January 5, 2012, 01:39 PM
I am trying to figure out WHY they even exist. What is the reasoning behind having these BB/Pellet guns that are exact replicas to the real thing. The antis have been wondering the same thing about black rifles for years.

They exist because kids are like adults. They like their toys that look like the real thing.

DoubleTapDrew
January 5, 2012, 01:44 PM
what do you feel the population could do to differentiate between these pellet guns and the real thing
Don't point things at cops. Real guns, toy guns, cell phones, pogo sticks, etc.

When I was younger one day I was carrying a very realistic looking beretta m9 co2 pellet gun "mel gibson-lethal weapon" style (mexican carry) when it was pointed out to me by an adult that if a cop sees that I'm going to get shot. Good point sir. Dumb behavior corrected.

JRH6856
January 5, 2012, 01:47 PM
Even if you outlaw any toys that remotely look like guns, it still won't stop it. Kids are smart enough to make their own if they're serious about it.

Had a neighbor who wouldn't let her kid have any "violent" toys. No toy guns. So one day the kid bites his peanut butter sandwich into the shape of a gun and starts playing with it. She gave up.

bikemutt
January 5, 2012, 02:08 PM
The more I think about it you guys are right on, it's the behavior not the object. Why just last year we had a Seattle cop neutralize a deaf, wino woodcarver who appeared to brandish a small pocket knife and wouldn't submit to the "drop it" command. If only the knife had been blue...

beatledog7
January 5, 2012, 02:21 PM
So, let's say we pass a law that says all airsoft or similar pellet guns have to be sold in crayola-like neon colors. That way everyone can tell at a glance what they are; i.e., they're not real guns.

Now enter the bad guy with a real semi-auto pistol. He knows that everybody now sees crayola-colored guns and thinks, "oh, that's just an airgun."

So he paints his evil black pistol neon green. Voila, not a real gun.

Zombiphobia
January 5, 2012, 02:53 PM
I agree that the parents should teach their children about proper weapon safety, and these obviously didn't since they can't understand why this happened.


In BCT you'll meet a lot of idiots. It shocked me how many guys there had not even the foggiest clue about basic weapon safety. "It's not loaded..' BANG.. 'it's just a gun'.. and so on and so on.

I have to admit that at first I thought the police could have probably responded differently, but considering how common school shootings have become, and how realistic many 'toy' guns are, I think they responded appropriately.

And yes, there is something to be said for 'natural selection' in this case.

Ultravox
January 5, 2012, 03:10 PM
Rule number one: Don't point anything that even looks like a gun at a police officer.
Rule number two: If you ignore rule number one and the police officer tells you to put down whatever you are holding, you put it down.

If you break rules one and two, expect to get shot.

Yes I have children.

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 03:15 PM
agree that the parents should teach their children about proper weapon safety, and these obviously didn't since they can't understand why this happened.


This doesn't have anything to do with firearms safety. It doesn't have anything to do with making toys less realistic so cops don't make mistakes.

It has everything to do with a young person seeking and finding a way to make a dramatic exit.

If you break rules one and two, expect to get shot.

And, in this case it seems, if you DO want to get shot and end your life's troubles, break rules one and two. ("In case of emergency, break glass...")

If there were any mistakes here, they would be those of whomever was close to this boy not understanding or recognizing that he had issues that might lead to suicide.

Even so, he may have kept his inner demons so well hidden that even his parents couldn't have known their extents. He sought out a particular end and he found a way to make it happen.

That's tragic, but it shouldn't fill us with the impotent angst that drives us to find someone to blame.

SG1
January 5, 2012, 03:24 PM
I don't think this is about the gun at all. At this age, this kid has been exposed to enough reality TV and real life news to know better. His parents should have taught him better and you would think since everyone in the story says "he was such a good and smart kid" he would know better than to threaten law enforcement, or to not comply with their demands. We're not talking terrorists or an angry mob or some strange adults, with whom he may have had doubts whether or not to comply. We're talking about law enforcement. Average law abiding citizens know to comply with the LEO's in a crisis situation-even children. And if not, blame the parents. I am a parent, I have kids from 10 to 22. If my kid pointed anything resembling a weapon at police and refused to comply with their demands of surrender than I would have to accept that he/she brought this end upon themselves. Even if I couldn't understand why they put themselves in that position.

We'll never really know whether this kid's intent was to be shot (thereby committing suicide), whether he was trying to look tough in front of the other kids and not give up to authority or whatever. The bottom line (and answer to the OPs' questions) is; what could have been different is he could have complied. He could have dropped his weapon (real, fake or otherwise) and the situation would have ended without his life being taken. The question is certainly not whether or not the gun looked real or whether or not the police should have been able to tell the difference. It's irrelevant to the situation really. What could, and should have been done is the boy should have surrendered and took his lumps for doing something stupid (bringing something like that to school, assaulting another student with it and refusing to comply with the police demands of 'drop the weapon').

I say all of this as a compassionate parent. We need to teach our children to respect authority. Although I feel for the parents, blaming the police for the way they handled the situation is wrong. If this were an adult at a shopping mall with a pellet gun in the exact same scenario we wouldn't be discussing whether or not toy guns should look real or whether LEOs should be better at identifying threats. We would be talking about what an idiot the guy was and how he did it on purpose and/or should have known better. I feel badly for these parents. I also feel badly for the LEOs who had to make the difficult decision to take this action and who will have to live with what they had to do.

Bottom line is we can't protect our children by removing all the dangerous things in this world. That's like saying the Titanic wouldn't have sunk if there was no ocean. What we can do is learn from this, teach our children to know better and then hope that they put this good knowledge into practice.

JohnBT
January 5, 2012, 03:27 PM
"Kids are naturally retarded."

No they aren't. Do you even know the meaning or definitions of the word? You need to develop your vocabulary.

John

NavyLCDR
January 5, 2012, 03:28 PM
Make toy guns look completely different than real guns, and somebody is going to make a real gun look like the toy to fool police with.

The problem was with the adolescent - not with the item he was holding.

Flintknapper
January 5, 2012, 03:31 PM
See post #19 for the answer folks!


Emotion aside...those are the facts.

chrt396
January 5, 2012, 03:37 PM
3 out of 4 neighbor kids, that I've know since they were babies..were killed a couple years ago in a car accident. They were driving a Lexus IS250 at 75-80mph in a 25 mph zone in a sleepy neighborhood in Pinellas County..lost control and hit a tree. 3 were ejected from the car..one was trapped and burned to death. They were all senseless...but the one driver was a moron. Did any of them deserve to die? No! They did something very stupid..and the law of S--T happens applied. That's exactly what this boy with the pellet gun did. Did he have a death wish? Heck..we'll never know unless he left a note of some kind. If I were jumping off the roof in to a pool below...which is again...STUPID...if I missed...I'd most likely be crippled or dead. Stupidity weeds out a bunch of our kids..and it has for hundreds of years.

Parental supervision, training...correction and punishment should be paramount in a childs upbringing to help in preventing this horrible occurance. It will still happen at times however..no matter how much you give..the stupid gene comes to the surface once in a while. I'm actually surprised that I'm still alive myself when I think back on some of the assinine things I've done over the past years. In fact..If I were my son..I'd whoop his butt!

heeler
January 5, 2012, 03:40 PM
FFI,even if they started making these toy and pellet guns bright neon orange or some such surely you are old enough to remember they have been making replicas of modern pistols since at least the 1960's as I owned a Crossman pellet pistol of that area.
And they make them that way because they sell!!
There was plenty going on with this kid.

chrt396
January 5, 2012, 03:45 PM
"Kids are naturally retarded."

No they aren't. Do you even know the meaning or definitions of the word? You need to develop your vocabulary.

John
(Retard is just a simple term that older guys used to use to describe stupidity. We used to always call each other that in the old days. No harm no foul. No offense meant. Leave political correctness at the door please.)) I'll expand upon that!! Kids do some dumb ass things! NATURALLY! We ALL did as kids! This day and age..the dumb things kids do are invoking more violent reactions such as this shooting.

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 03:49 PM
Look there's plenty of "harmless" old epithets we used to toss at each other when we were abrasive, ignorant kids who didn't know or speak to anyone who could have been marinalized or put down by our use of those terms.

But here our words go 'round the world and represent the entire communtiy of responsible firearms owners. That's a little different from being a member of a homogenous gang of redneck rugrats who's words don't matter at all, and who don't "know no better."

How 'bout we leave ALL OF THOSE TERMS at the door, along with our political correctness? Thanks.

wannabeagunsmith
January 5, 2012, 03:51 PM
Absolutely! When it comes to the safety of children, YES! Anything and everything should be done that is humanly possible to protect them. Yeah, but you can't blame the object. The liberals don't see a reason to keep "assault clips" around. But they completely miss the fact that in reality, they are very useful to most gun owners.

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 03:53 PM
And, again, we keep returning to the idea that the kid was dumb, the kid didn't know any better, the kid was somehow not acting deliberately. The kid needed to be protected from the consequences of his poor choices.

I don't think that's so. It appears to me the kid knew what he was doing, was on a mission with a goal in mind, and premeditated, prepped, and executed his plan right through to a successful completion.

He held his destiny in his hands, made his choice, and got what he wanted.

It is sad. But it isn't a gun safety, or gun education, or product safety issue.

Sgt_R
January 5, 2012, 03:53 PM
These are all REAL guns:

http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19531&d=1325739504
http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19530&d=1325739453
http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19532&d=1325739595
http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19533&d=1325739721
http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19534&d=1325740520
http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19536&d=1325740614
http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19535&d=1325740561
http://www.warriortalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19537&stc=1&d=1325740646

So not only do you need a law to prevent people from making their toy guns look like real guns, you also need a law to prevent people from making their real guns look like toy guns. And that still won't stop criminals (including, but not limited to, suicidal teenagers) from painting their guns to look like something they're not.

Face it, additional legislation is not the answer to this problem.

R

9MMare
January 5, 2012, 04:00 PM
Good points.

I just can't imagine a kid that age wanting suicide-by-cop, but if not that, what on earth could he have been thinking? Just can't believe someone being that stupid.
From what I've read so far, it's premature to just assume it was 'suicide by cop.'

Teens, young people in general, often think they'll live forever. They dont believe something bad will happen to them. In his mind, he probably just brought the gun in to scare other kids and since it wasnt real, he didnt believe the cops would shoot. Or got so scared he didnt think straight.

I'm agreeing with the Darwinism line of thought tho.

Shadow 7D
January 5, 2012, 04:00 PM
Absolutely! When it comes to the safety of children, YES! Anything and everything should be done that is humanly possible to protect them. I teach all my kids firearm safety and how to handle firearms to PROTECT them. Take away the curiosity factor and show them the destructive force of firearms and you will have a well taught child that will respect them and handle them safely.


Oh really
well
give up your pool
give up your tub
give up your car
give up the bikes
as a matter of fact you will now wear a foam rubber padded suit, live under constant video surveillance and safety/ risk briefings for everything, along with a risk analysis, so one for each step, yeah, that sounds like your wet dream, safe kids and all that**

please remember this was one of the anthems that got us the Brady Bills, the 'Assault Weapons Ban' and the entire state of Kommifornia's 'reasonalbe' gun laws.

OK, do you see how stupid that sentiments is
it DOESN'T MATTER what he used to suicide, it could have been his shoe laces OR driving his car into your at 100 going the wrong way.

behaviors can't be regulated, or everybody would follow the law and we wouldn't have any crime.

Bubbles
January 5, 2012, 04:14 PM
Toy guns that look like the real thing have been around since kids played cowboys and indians with cap guns over 50 years ago. The genie isn't getting stuffed back into that bottle.

Also, real guns can be had in custom colors - neon pink, orange, yellow, etc. - if not from the factory, then thanks to duracoat. Do we make it illegal then for real guns to be limited to black/gray/chrome?

Noah
January 5, 2012, 04:21 PM
((To those of us who have relatives or friend that are medically mentally retarded, all improper use of the term is offensive. It is not seen as a simple term to describe stupidity, but rather the condition of my uncle who will never have a family, a job, the ability to speak, or fully express himself in this life. I am not angry myself, but use of the term as an insult can really upset people in my situation.
Please do not reply to this section of my post, no further comment is needed.))




Thoroughly moving on, could it be that the kid was bullied and did what he thought was best to "bully" his bulliers? Scare them with the best weapon he could scrounge up? He couldn't have bought it himself, he may have borrowed it from a friend without his parents' knowledge or permission.

To repeat everyone else, almost all problems "solved" by gun control are behavior problems that are little affected by the laws and limitations. "Color-Coding" does more harm than good. This problem isn't even related to toolset. He could have had a real gun, an airsoft gun, a hunk of wood, a knife, a sword, a stick, and it wouldn't have changed much of anything. The only variables in this situation are all human, when he chose to bring a weapon, when he chose to brandish the weapon, when he chose NOT to drop the weapon...

heeler
January 5, 2012, 04:33 PM
Noah,everything I read about this is the very first thing the kid did was punch a class mate unexpectedly.
At that point he probably took care of a bully if in fact that was the case which I doubt.
Sam's explanation is unfortunately the more plausible answer.

Noah
January 5, 2012, 04:48 PM
Unfortunately, I agree. You can always hope that non-self inflicted suicide was not his goal, but it is entirely plausible. Then again, that makes so little sense to me , but, then again, I doubt it does to anyone.

mgmorden
January 5, 2012, 04:52 PM
Stuff happens. You can't legislate away tragedy in life. if they "color coded" these things then anyone who truly wanted it to look like a real gun could do so with a $2 can of spray paint. Heck I've did this myself with toy guns before just to use with a Halloween costume.

Part of the problem in our society today is that every time something bad happens we want to "make sure this doesn't happen again". We want to "fix it". The truth is that's chasing an impossible goal. Sometimes you just have to grieve and clean up the mess. To do more is to simply intrude in everyone's lives with no beneficial impact.

JRH6856
January 5, 2012, 05:03 PM
...nevermind

hso
January 5, 2012, 06:20 PM
I understand that this is tragic, but the only person at fault here is the kid and his parents.

If real guns don't cause crime then how do replica guns cause crime? It isn't like there's an epidemic of this taking place. This is just one tragic case.

There's no problem to be fixed.

9MMare
January 5, 2012, 06:22 PM
I understand that this is tragic, but the only person at fault here is the kid and his parents.

If real guns don't cause crime then how do replica guns cause crime? It isn't like there's an epidemic of this taking place. This is just one tragic case.

There's no problem to be fixed.
As extreme as it sometimes seems, this is one reason why there is a zero tolerance policy on guns in (most) schools....no guns of any kind, real or otherwise.

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 06:53 PM
As extreme as it sometimes seems, this is one reason why there is a zero tolerance policy on guns in (most) schools....no guns of any kind, real or otherwise.


Wait, did this kid violate the zero tolerance policy too? Oh my. He's in trouble now.

hermannr
January 5, 2012, 07:27 PM
Since when did any law PREVENT any bad behavour? Doesn't happen. Those that care would do whta the "law" prohibited anyway. Those that don't care, even with a law against it, still don't care.

BTW: a 15 year old is not a "kid". Young man or young woman, but not a "kid". This whole "juvenile until you are 18" stupidity needs to go away. Many other cultures are much more honest and acknowledge adulthood at a much younger age, like even as young as 12.

Do young people do stupid things? sure, so do "adults". The answer is taking responsibility for your actions, something our children (and grandchildren) are not taught much any more.

No, I am not young, I'm retired and on SS.

PowderMonkey
January 5, 2012, 07:37 PM
If it would keep a child safer by these toys being bright freaking purple with neon signs saying "I'M A TOY GUN then hell YES. I couldn't give one tinkers damn what adults want to choose to play with in their little weekend warrior games. If a grown ass man wants to carry a toy around and play big shot then so be it. My problem is with KIDS taking these things out and getting shot because of it! There is not ONE SINGLE damn use for these to be so realistic looking.

Your handle is "Freedom Fighter" and yet you want to take away the freedom to produce realistic toy guns...? So you only fight for freedoms you believe in - gotcha...! :p

Zombiphobia
January 5, 2012, 08:07 PM
It has everything to do with a young person seeking and finding a way to make a dramatic exit.


And you know this for a fact how, exactly?

Zombiphobia
January 5, 2012, 08:10 PM
Has it been covered yet on rather or not this kid was special ed or not?

How many of you would still say a mentally challenged juvenile was making a dramatic exit, committing suicide, well aware of his actions etc..? Just curious, since nobody here knows exactly why he acted so stupid and it's all speculation and judgement based on what we ASSUME to be 'fact'.


It is sad. But it isn't a gun safety, or gun education, or product safety issue

Maybe not a product safety or gun safety issue, but it's definitely a gun education issue.

His parents are whining about why the police killed their son... they obviously are not well educated on the subject since pointing a firearm at someone is generally perceived as a life-threatening gesture. Not "brace yourself for the punch".

19&41
January 5, 2012, 08:19 PM
If all the manufactured toy guns are taken off the market, Young folks will take up making them themselves, such as this homemade pistol.

http://smashingtops.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/6.-john_dillinger.jpg

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 5, 2012, 08:26 PM
I see 2 things that need to happen, 1- Find a way to seriously differentiate these things from the real thing so they are easily identifiable by LEO's. 2- Parents need to start realizing that these things actually CAN get their kids KILLED.

Ok I have seen MANY trying to point to me as some sort of anti. Could ANYONE please point out where I have said to legislate, make illegal, or ban a damn thing? Nope you can't. I DID say that I personally see no reason for toy guns to look so realistic and I have YET to see anyone give one single intelligent answer to that question. If you actually go back and READ what I wrote and attempt to comprehend it, you will see that what I am proposing is trying to find a way to easily differentiate (tell them apart for those that seem to not be able to grasp that word) these things from the real thing. And for parents to get the fact that yes, while they are just toys, they CAN be seen as a deadly weapon and they have gotten kids killed so teach your child some damn responsibility or don't buy them one of these things! Why is it you guys wish to jump so hard on the "freedom" wagon whenever someone is just trying to come up with an honest concept to TRY to make our kids a bit safer?

The case I posted up first may not be the best example of what I am trying to get at here. I found 73 examples from 1983 to 2008 of EXACTLY what I am trying to get at on this link, the second of 11,110 hits when I Google "Child killed while holding a toy gun", Some examples were kids thinking they had their toy gun and they actually had gotten hold of a real one and such. http://www.irol.com/avc/fact_sheet_about_toy_guns.html Read a few of those and get back to me about how the toy isn't part of the problem. If after reading those you still feel that way, then you have no concept of the real world.

And to those of you equating this to "Assault weapons bans" and instances like that, you have obviously not read a damn thing I have written in this post.

I am NOT saying ban the damn things, although I still see no reason for a kid to be given free reign with one, but what I AM more or less saying is try to modify not only the toys but the PARENTS with warnings and such. I know parents today are nowhere NEAR what they should be in the form of discipline and teaching their kids right from wrong, but this is just a simple problem with the MAJOR possibility of tragic results.

billib
January 5, 2012, 08:33 PM
Just thinking back to all the toy hollow, green plasitc handgrenades I had in the sixties, wonder that i'm still alive.
No sympathy here. Years of American policies coming to fruition. It's always someones else's fault. Thank you LBJ.

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 08:34 PM
Maybe not a product safety or gun safety issue, but it's definitely a gun education issue.

His parents are whining about why the police killed their son... they obviously are not well educated on the subject since pointing a firearm at someone is generally perceived as a life-threatening gesture. Not "brace yourself for the punch".
O.k. But that's still not a gun safety issue. This wasn't a gun safety problem. This was apparently a young man who set out to do something and did it.

Teaching him over and over every single day how NOT to do something wrong with a gun wouldn't have kept him from choosing to do this. If anything, it would have only make it ever more clear exactly HOW to pull it off.

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 08:39 PM
And for parents to get the fact that yes, while they are just toys, they CAN be seen as a deadly weapon and they have gotten kids killed so teach your child some damn responsibility or don't buy them one of these things! Why is it you guys wish to jump so hard on the "freedom" wagon whenever someone is just trying to come up with an honest concept to TRY to make our kids a bit safer?But that's not what happened here.

1st of all, they claim that they never would have given him the thing, period.

Second, this does not appear to be a tragic mistake where the poor kid got shot 'cause folks couldn't tell he had a TOY.

He seems to have intended this outcome. Are you saying a PURPLE gun ... and a $2.00 can of black spray paint ... couldn't have produced the same outcome?

And how "crazeeee" does a gun have to look for the cops to know for sure it isn't real? Look at any number of new firearm designs, and all the DuraCoat type coatings.

This is an impossibility you're arguing for.

And you're STILL looking for a physical solution to a problem without one. When a young person (apparently) CHOOSES to take this action, no amount of product neutering is going to stop it from happening. Won't even slow it down.

9MMare
January 5, 2012, 08:55 PM
Wait, did this kid violate the zero tolerance policy too? Oh my. He's in trouble now.
You seem to be writing faster than your brain can process.

I can barely interpret your response and any way I try, it makes no sense in context with the post I replied to re: zero tolerance policies say 'all guns' real or not, because it's not reasonable to expect people to differentiate, including cops.

Unless it was sarcasm for sarcasm's sake. If so, save it for someone who'll appreciate it.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 5, 2012, 08:56 PM
And you Sam are STILL not reading what I write!!! Do I need to slow it down for you? You aren't usually slow. I'll post yet again and embolden it for you so you won't miss it.

The case I posted up first may not be the best example of what I am trying to get at here. I found 73 examples from 1983 to 2008 of EXACTLY what I am trying to get at on this link, the second of 11,110 hits when I Google "Child killed while holding a toy gun", Some examples were kids thinking they had their toy gun and they actually had gotten hold of a real one and such. http://www.irol.com/avc/fact_sheet_about_toy_guns.html Read a few of those and get back to me about how the toy isn't part of the problem. If after reading those you still feel that way, then you have no concept of the real world.

hso
January 5, 2012, 09:00 PM
73 examples over a 25 year period when the U.S. Census puts the number of 10-19 year olds as approximately 40,000,000 in 2011?

That's not even close to being statistically significant as a public health issue. Before you start calling for some sort of universal action you have to look at the rates of incidents to determine first if there's any general threat to the public at large. Even at 73 out of 40,000,000, where 73 is too large a number for shot by someone not recognizing the "toy" as a toy, you have a rate of 1.82500 10exp-6. Adjusted to a standard rate based on 100,000 population you still only get a rate of 1.8. That's for a single year, but you've quoted a 25 year window so the rate would be reduced to 1/25th or to 0.072 deaths due to "toy" guns per 100,000 per year.

While every one of those deaths is individually tragic, there is no statistically significant "problem" warranting a call for broad action.
The facts don't bear out the emotional response.

buck460XVR
January 5, 2012, 09:37 PM
While this was a tragic event, it was NOT a case of a child accidentally shot while holding a toy gun. The gun in question was NOT a toy, it was an adult air pistol. One that had to be purchased by an adult, to be used for legitimate shooting purposes i.e target shooting, small game hunting. There was no legitimate reason for it to have a red tipped barrel or to be "color coded". The young man was told several times to drop the weapon and chose not to, he had also already committed a violent act. He supposedly pointed the weapon at the police in a threatening manner. He made several bad choices and it cost him his life. Why........ we will never know or understand. But......the other thing I will never understand is why the police involved deemed it necessary to employ the "Mozambique Drill" on a 15 year old that was obviously out numbered and definitely much less skilled than the officers. Why it was decided to shoot to kill instead of shooting to disable. Sorry but this was an obvious immature individual with no formal gun training confronted by adults with intense training for just this type of situation. Altho I believe the police acted within the legal limits of the law, and had other students in close proximity of danger to protect, this was a situation where it had to have been obvious that shooting the young man in a nonlethal spot would have more than likely ended the standoff. At least it should have been considered or attempted before using the "Rhodesian double tap" to take him out.

Rembrandt
January 5, 2012, 09:38 PM
Only recently our society has declared 26 year old's as children......150 years ago a 12 year old was expected to take the responsibilities of adulthood, and most of those were more mature than today's 30 year old. If we had more adults today understand and teach responsibility to their kids, there wouldn't be a need for color coded toy guns.

9mmepiphany
January 5, 2012, 09:39 PM
Has it been covered yet on rather or not this kid was special ed or not?
He was a 15 year old who was in the 8th grade...most of his classmates would have been 13 or just turning 14. That means either he had a late birthday and was held back one year or he was held back two years

How many of you would still say a mentally challenged juvenile was making a dramatic exit, committing suicide, well aware of his actions etc..? Just curious, since nobody here knows exactly why he acted so stupid and it's all speculation and judgement based on what we ASSUME to be 'fact'.
It doesn't matter, just was we'll never know, the officers can not know his state of mind or his intent. They reacted to his actions as they were trained to do. They are the ones who need sympathy...especially now that they have started receiving death threats at the station

His parents are whining about why the police killed their son... they obviously are not well educated on the subject since pointing a firearm at someone is generally perceived as a life-threatening gesture. Not "brace yourself for the punch".
His parents are lashing out because they are angry. But their anger should be turned inward to not having prevented this from occurring. Suicide, which is what I believe this was, isn't a spontaneous occurrence. It is something which is given thought before action occurs. They'll have to eventually face the fact that they missed or ignored the signs before this incident started

bikerdoc
January 5, 2012, 09:47 PM
Upseting as it may be to some, this young man made some bad decisions.

Is it sad? Yes.

Will it make me more consciencious to discuss and educate the numorous, grandkids, nephews, nieces, and neighborhood kids? Yes.

Will it move me to action to ban such items? No.

9mmepiphany
January 5, 2012, 09:53 PM
I DID say that I personally see no reason for toy guns to look so realistic

... what I am proposing is trying to find a way to easily differentiate (tell them apart for those that seem to not be able to grasp that word) these things from the real thing.

... to TRY to make our kids a bit safer?

... Read a few of those and get back to me about how the toy isn't part of the problem. If after reading those you still feel that way, then you have no concept of the real world.

...I am NOT saying ban the damn things, although I still see no reason for a kid to be given free reign with one, but what I AM more or less saying is try to modify not only the toys but the PARENTS with warnings and such.

It makes no difference what it looks like. There are stacks of cases where people have been shot holding everything from a wallet, to a cell phone , to a stick. If it is presented as a weapon, it will be perceived as a weapon.

LEO's rolled their eyes when they passed the law requiring that toy guns have bright orange tips in this country. We all knew that the bad guys who were serious about possibly having to shoot it out with cops would be painting the tips of their guns orange just to give us a moments pause.

This truely isn't a gun or toy gun issue...except to the media...it is a sad tale of a child who didn't know how else to handle a problem

TexasBill
January 5, 2012, 10:19 PM
I am going to be politically incorrect.

The youth was 15 years old in the eighth grade. As noted above, that means there had already been some problems in his school career. The Texas cutoff for a school year is the first of September and there's no combination of birth dates that has a student in eighth grade at the age of fifteen without being held back one, or even possibly, two, years. In Texas, a child can be held back for either scholastic or disciplinary problems, so we have no way of knowing what factors shaped this young man's thinking.

One of the factors that has been overlooked is pride, however misplaced it might be. The young man doesn't need to have had a death wish; he simply may have been unwilling to show what he perceived as weakness by backing down and complying with the officers' orders. Combine that with the fact young people often confuse immaturity with immortality and you have a situation where the youth could actually have thought that, because of his age, the officers would back down and nothing would happen. This idea has been reinforced in enough popular media that it may have had an impact on whatever he was thinking. Here's the politically incorrect part: this kind of bravado is especially prevalent among young Hispanic males.

While I do have sympathy for the family of the young man, I feel more badly about the two officers who must now deal with the fact they killed a boy who had only a toy gun. It doesn't matter that it was justified and by the book; it's a load I would hate to carry and I wish them the best.

The argument over the marking of toy guns goes way back. When I was in junior high, a company called Palmer made very realistic scale models of the M1911 and P08 Luger pistols. They even fired small wooden pellets. By the time I was in high school, the kits had been discontinued because of complaints the guns were so realistic, they had been used in the commission of crimes.

Airsoft guns have all the markings they need and it's illegal in some states to alter, remove or paint over the bright orange tips. There's no way to kept anyone from breaking that law.

Those of us with children want to do everything we can to ensure their safety and well-being. However, the world is not sanitized for your protection and, ultimately, we have to hope life's little lessons don't cause too much pain.

The story about the mother, the kid and the sandwich reminded me of some folks I knew: they were ardent pacifists; no "war toys," no guns, no swords for their little angel. They raised him up right: immediately after graduating from high school, he enlisted in the Marines.

ugaarguy
January 5, 2012, 10:24 PM
This really isn't a gun issue. Sam1911, hso, 9mmE, and others have explained why in more detail. What this is, is a mental health & suicide prevention education issue.

What we can take away from this is that we need to do a much better job of educating parents, teachers, and young people how to recognize the signs of mental distress & suicidal tendencies in their their children / students / peers. We can't force this education on the parents, but we can offer it. We can make make this training / education an annual requirement for all school faculty & staff, and for all students from something like 6th grade on.

The US Air Force implemented such a program in the early 2000s, and it so dramatically decreased death by suicide that it was adopted DoD wide. Modifying this program to suit middle & high school aged children, and the faculty & staff of such schools would be a good start. Again, this a mental health education issue, and not a gun safety issue.

Dnaltrop
January 5, 2012, 10:44 PM
to my 9 year old daughter. "What would happen if you pointed a toy gun that looked like a real gun at a police officer? "

"They'd shoot me Daddy...Duh!!"

It could be sheer innocence... I was lucky to have an understanding teacher when I brought a fork/spoon/knife combo to lunch as a Kindergartner.

Sadly I have trouble finding any innocent use in a mock firearm in a school, and suicide by cop, or a botched attempt at intimidation (bully possibly? ) seems the likely root.

jojo200517
January 5, 2012, 11:15 PM
The phrase "ya can't fix stupid" comes to mind, along with "if your gonna be stupid you better be tough". Sure its sad he died, but to me it was his choice, whether it was an attempt at suicide or just a dumb choice it ended up costing him his life. I don't get too bent out of shape when someone dies, its the way life is, none of us make it out alive.

I'm 24 and I remember my first cap gun was revolver shaped and the hammer actually moved to fire the caps when you pulled the trigger, and it looked very much like a .357 magnum (and was probably about the same size since it barely fit my hands). We didn't have orange tips back in the day, but mom and dad told me to not point it at anyone I didn't know cause they may not realize it was a toy. Same thing when I got a BB pistol a few years later. Looking up google images of it I realize that its not a replica of any particular gun that I know of but it looked plenty real enough and if pointed at a cop would very likely got you shot. Again I received warning from my parents about pointing it at anyone. I knew better by common sense but my parents made sure that I hadn't forgotten or became otherwise dumb to the matter.

Now I see the majority of them have an orange tip but whats to keep someone from coloring it over, sure it may be illegal but thats never prevented it from happening. I find it disturbing that I see an airsoft gun in walmart that looks almost identical to a draco pistol with a 20 round mag and from 10 feet away the only difference one could really tell is the orange flash hider/muzzle break. I don't find it disturbing that the toy looks like a real gun as much as that 3 isles over there is bright florescent orange paint and I could easily make a real gun look like a toy. So where is the ban it crowd here? Should we ban the toy, the real thing, or the paint? /sarcasam

So the AR guys don't feel left out, I have a good friend that has an actual ar15 that is all black and an airsoft one that is blue and white. They are within fractions of inches of being identical in size and shape. I went over one day not knowing about the toy one and it was laying on his bed and I said, holy poop who did you get to duracoat your AR and didn't realize it was a toy until I picked it up.

First time I seen a Beretta Neos .22 with the blue inlay grips I actually thought it was a kids toy. It looked like some kinda space ray gun thing to me.

Ok I have seen MANY trying to point to me as some sort of anti. Could ANYONE please point out where I have said to legislate, make illegal, or ban a damn thing?

I will.

How do you propose that we make the manufactures make them
...bright freaking purple with neon signs saying "I'M A TOY GUN... without legislations, bans or otherwise making the non marked ones illegal?

hso
January 5, 2012, 11:30 PM
Dnaltrop,

I asked nearly the same question of my 13 year old daughter and her response was, "They'd have to shoot to protect themselves".

I also asked her if she thought anyone in her 8th grade would do something like that while in school and she said, "Not unless they wanted to die".

***

This is a tragic case of a young person making even more tragic decisions. It isn't an accident to be prevented.

Shadow 7D
January 5, 2012, 11:42 PM
And to those of you equating this to "Assault weapons bans" and instances like that, you have obviously not read a damn thing I have written in this post.

Freedom fighter (ugh, ok, your moniker and then the side you choose on this, well...)

YOU ARE ARGUING THE OUTLIER
using an emotional appeal ("for the kids" the EXACT ONE the brady bunch uses)
falsely attributing this adults, individual, person of a age of the reason
death to a toy,
INSTEAD of his actions, sorry but there ain't no cure for stupid

I would rather argue the premise from the side of the officer, how do you think THEY feel, having a teenager (who really, if you know psychology are the most cold blooded of killers)

So, why are you like the brady bunch
you are using their entire line of reasoning, so you both fit in the same category.


So far we have the story
"kid pulls gun on cop"
gun is fake
kid doesn't put the weapon down even after multiple warnings
kid is dead

reasonable chain of action

your take away
"real guns and toy guns shouldn't look alike"

but here you are arguing a categorical fallacy, see Xgun not like Ygun - Ok, I give you that BUT, they are BOTH categorically gun


OK, and now the kicker
in more than a few states (Californian being a leader)
your ENTIRE line of reasoning has played out,
AND, now "Toys" are designated by having a orange muzzle or in some other way easily identifiable (and much of that was argued from the standpoint of the officer, NOT perp)

so, if said kid, disables such safety devices, well
once again you end up trying to legislate action and offer an equipment fix for a user problem.

Naw, argue your outliers, have fun, 'every kid counts' and all that
I'd rather work on firearms education to address those who unsafely handled a real gun, than rant for more useless BS legislation.

Geno
January 5, 2012, 11:44 PM
As I read the article, I remain confused as to if the weapon was a pellet pistol, BB pistol or an Air Soft. The previous two absolutely can kill. There was a recent news article of a young man shot by a roommate with a pellet gun. The hospital missed the injury, and the kid died. Ergo, proof that they can be lethal. The problem for LEOs is to determine what the "perp" is holding, and what intent the perp has. It is sad that a young man died. It is equally sad that this LEO will have to live with this event for life. It is tragic that so many children had to be witness to this whole series of events.

Geno

jerkface11
January 5, 2012, 11:44 PM
We all knew that the bad guys who were serious about possibly having to shoot it out with cops would be painting the tips of their guns orange just to give us a moments pause.

Has that ever happened?

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 11:44 PM
You seem to be writing faster than your brain can process.

...

Unless it was sarcasm for sarcasm's sake. If so, save it for someone who'll appreciate it.


Hooo boy. Yes, you missed the sarcasm train. If the irony did not strike you as apt, feel free to disregard that post.

Sam1911
January 5, 2012, 11:47 PM
Read a few of those and get back to me about how the toy isn't part of the problem. If after reading those you still feel that way, then you have no concept of the real world. In the real world, hso's response matches mine precisely. The issue you seem to be redirecting toward is a non-issue. And, even so, the event which has caused all this debate to come to the fore doesn't relate to it in any way.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 5, 2012, 11:51 PM
Dnaltrop,

I asked nearly the same question of my 13 year old daughter and her response was, "They'd have to shoot to protect themselves".

I also asked her if she thought anyone in her 8th grade would do something like that while in school and she said, "Not unless they wanted to die".

HSO and Dnaltrop have BOTH illustrated exactly what I am talking about. They seem to have GOTTEN my meaning!!! If we EDUCATE the parents, then they will EDUCATE the children!!! They have both educated their children with simple common freaking sense (I know, it's not that common anymore).

But HSO, I have to completely disagree with you on your other post. Losing a single child is a loss period. I do NOT care about statistics when it comes to kids. As I said, that was just ONE link out of over 11000 hits but even if that were in actuality the only ones, it's too damn many! I love my kids and my grandkids more than life itself. As should ANY parent. To me this is not a "the sky is falling" issue but a real, documented, factual problem.

Yes the first link I put up was more than likely the result of a mentally disturbed kid with some serious issues and probably not the best case to present for this. I saw it this morning when I opened my home page and it just disturbed the hell out of me. Again I will say that I can't hold any fault towards the LEO's response. But what I CAN hold fault to is the fact that IF there were some way for them to have identified that pellet gun as that, then maybe the poor kid would have survived and gotten the help he so desperately needed.

The responses I have seen from many of you truly saddens me because of the callousness you so easily portray. Had it been one of your children, I truly doubt that you would be saying the same damn things that you are saying such as Darwinism and Natural selection. I am positive that ANY child that has fallen to this had parents that thought "won't happen to my kid". It very well could happen if you don't teach your child responsible behavior EVEN WITH A TOY GUN.

Will it make me more consciencious to discuss and educate the numorous, grandkids, nephews, nieces, and neighborhood kids? Yes.

Again the light has dawned!!! BikerDoc Thank you for seeing the point as well!

RioShooter
January 5, 2012, 11:52 PM
I am a teacher at the school where the shooting took place. The situation was handled professionally by the staff and law enforcement. The positive actions by the staff and PD rarely make it into the press. But everything I observed was handled in a textbook manner. My thanks and gratitude goes out to the PD for keeping everyone safe and secure.

Sam1911
January 6, 2012, 12:00 AM
But......the other thing I will never understand is why the police involved deemed it necessary to employ the "Mozambique Drill" on a 15 year old that was obviously out numbered and definitely much less skilled than the officers.How do you know this was a "Mozambique" drill. Did one officer shoot him three times or did three officers all fire at once, striking him in different places?

Not that it really matters...

Why it was decided to shoot to kill instead of shooting to disable. Sorry but this was an obvious immature individual with no formal gun training confronted by adults with intense training for just this type of situation.Well, I'm not sure what training these officers had. It may or may not have been anything most of us would call "intense" -- but again, that's not really relevant.

They needed to shut off that individual's ability to inflict harm on others immediately. If you've been around here for long, you'll know that if you need to shoot, you need to shoot to stop a threat that is immediate and deadly. Death is absolutely an anticipated and acceptable result.

He has a gun, he's threatening others and presenting that gun at you, your fellow officers, and bystanders. You have one half of a fraction of a second to stop what's about to happen. You do NOT try to shoot him in the foot or shoot the gun out of his hand or pull some other "Lone Ranger" stunt. Wound him, and someone else is likely to DIE.

Altho I believe the police acted within the legal limits of the law, and had other students in close proximity of danger to protect, this was a situation where it had to have been obvious that shooting the young man in a nonlethal spot would have more than likely ended the standoff. At least it should have been considered or attempted before using the "Rhodesian double tap" to take him out.
So, when you shoot him in the gut or the knee, and he spends his last few seconds emptying his magazine into you and the children and teachers nearby, how are you going to explain the wisdom there? We didn't know FOR SURE he would kill anyone, so we wounded him and gave him one last chance to "off" some folks?

9mmepiphany
January 6, 2012, 12:07 AM
Has that ever happened?
While conducting a Probation Search, we have recovered airsoft ones that had been painted black and we've also found ones painted lurid colors. But we have not had an officer involved shooting involving them.

jojo200517
January 6, 2012, 12:23 AM
But what I CAN hold fault to is the fact that IF there were some way for them to have identified that pellet gun as that, then maybe the poor kid would have survived and gotten the help he so desperately needed.

Your still blaming the inanimate object for this happening. As the examples given in my previous post and others there isn't any way to really give a 100% positive way to ID a toy gun as a toy and a real gun as a real one from any distance that the end user couldn't reverse to make the toy gun look more realistic or the real gun look more like a toy.

I'll agree with you that properly educating the children is key. Me and several other members made that point, and I see you are coming around.
Again the light has dawned!!! BikerDoc Thank you for seeing the point as well! I think your light is trying really hard to come on and for you to see that its not the toys fault but you gotta quit fiddling with the switch or you'll blow out the bulb.

As for officers being shot with a real gun made to look like a toy, no, I don't have any examples of that happening. I do remember a thread a good while back about an article where a guy was legally open carrying an AK (don't recall if it was a draco or an underfolder) that was confronted by authorities about it. He had painted the flash hider bright orange so other people would think it was a toy and wouldn't freak out. I'm not sure if he was charged with anything or not.

psyork22
January 6, 2012, 12:48 AM
I just had this conversation the other day with my F-I-L. His grandsons and my nephews want to start shooting. I love this idea. The problem is they want to shoot my AR-15 and Glock 17 with 32 round mag, etc. The real problem is the lack of gun education, rules of shooting and these darn video games. I learned on a 22 single shot while having to know all the safety principles first and guess what, I had a blast and was hooked for life. O.K. so my solution would to have these kids pass a "safety course" before they could play these first person shooter. It could be marketed a training and trivia at the beginning of the game. It would be a start. As for the student with the plastic gun, I would have reacted the same as LEO. Sad but true, I would have shot him also.

JohnKSa
January 6, 2012, 01:01 AM
But you still aren't getting my meaning here. The parents are led to believe that these things are completely safe and such. Yes the toy in and of itself is perfectly safe, the LOOKS of the toy are not.I do get it. The problem is that no matter what action taken, a kid can circumvent it pitifully easily if he wants to.

He can modify an existing toy gun that doesn't look real.

He can make his own toy gun and make it look real.

He can take something that doesn't even look much like a gun and use it like the guy in the video used his cellphone and still make people think he has a gun.Absolutely! When it comes to the safety of children, YES! Anything and everything should be done that is humanly possible to protect them.That concept is one that is paralyzing. No matter what you do to make kids safe, I can come up with a way that is humanly possible to make them a little safer. The idea that we should do EVERYTHING humanly possible would be impossibly destructive to a functioning society.

We should do what is REASONABLE and PRUDENT to protect children. If we were to do EVERYTHING that is humanly possible, kids wouldn't be allowed to ride in cars, swim in swimming pools, go out and have contact with other kids who might pass illnesses to them, shoot, play with animals that can spread diseases or act unpredictably at times, travel in airplanes, the list is literally ENDLESS.

You have to introduce the concept of "reasonable" into the equation or there's no end to the restrictions that "must" be imposed in the interest of "saving the children."I DID say that I personally see no reason for toy guns to look so realistic and I have YET to see anyone give one single intelligent answer to that question.The reason is the same reason ANY toy is ever made to look realistic.

The thing is, you have to look at both sides. You don't restrict people just because you can't think of a reason for them to be unrestricted. You have to show a benefit to the restriction that outweighs the fact that people should have the right to make the choices they want to. Our society is based on the idea that "Because I want to." is a plenty good enough reason to do most anything.

To restrict a person from pursuing happiness in whatever manner they choose, one doesn't simply say: "Give me a good reason why you should be allowed to do it.", instead, our system requires that it be PROVEN that there is at least one, preferably more than one, good reason why people should NOT be allowed to do a thing.

Trying to eliminate realistic toy guns to prevent accidental police shootings does not make sense because it's not possible, nor does it solve the problem even if it were possible.

I posted a video of a guy who was shot when cops mistook his cell phone for a gun, so even if it were possible to eliminate anything that looks like a gun AND prevent anyone from ever making anything that looks like a gun, someone could still create enough confusion to get shot by brandishing practically anything shiny under the proper circumstances.And for parents to get the fact that yes, while they are just toys, they CAN be seen as a deadly weapon and they have gotten kids killed so teach your child some damn responsibility or don't buy them one of these things!How much of the public's money are you willing to spend to educate parents on how to train their kids? How much would it take? Or are you going to shift the cost to the makers of toy guns? Why should they be penalized because parents don't know enough to teach their kids responsibility?

I understand you're well-meaning, but everything you're proposing is either going to be ineffective at solving the problem you want to solve or it's aimed at penalizing or restricting people who aren't part of the problem.If after reading those you still feel that way, then you have no concept of the real world.This is just a fancy way of saying, if you disagree with me then you're living in a fantasy world. Do I need to slow it down for you? You aren't usually slow.This is a not so fancy way of saying that if you disagree with me you're "slow".

Is that how you normally win debates? By switching to insults when the facts don't support your arguments?

Geno
January 6, 2012, 01:13 AM
RioShooter:

Thanks for that post. I wish you didn't have the "inside-story" on this experience. I wish nobody did. That aside, I hope all progresses well for all involved, and that calmer heads prevail in future discussions of how to avoid repeats of this nature.

Geno

Ringolevio
January 6, 2012, 01:16 AM
TexasBill:
Here's the politically incorrect part: this kind of bravado is especially prevalent among young Hispanic males.

Oh, so were the cops being "culturally insensitive" by not factoring this in?

If so,, consider that another attitude that is prevalent among young Hispanic males is that driving while drunk is muy, muy macho.

So when (as happened around here just recently) an illegal alien from Mexico gets blotto, drives the wrong way on a freeway ramp and kills a mother and her child, should we say it's not his fault because it's part of his "culture"?

If you're gonna live here, get with the program of how things are done in this country. What part of "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" is being lost in translation?

One of the principles of American culture, as regards the police, is the "presumption of regularity". That means when a cop tells you to do something, whether it's "drop the weapon" or just "step back", you don't say "Why?" or "By what authority?", you just do it!

As to color-coding: The other day at my local gunsmith's, I saw a Heckler & Koch VP70 for sale. I couldn't help but think that if I painted it some bright color it would totally look like a "cosmic ray-gun", and if I started waving it around, folks would just think I was playing Buck Rogers or Flash Gordon, until I started shooting.

Anyone who wants to blame the object for this tragedy is using the same flawed logic as those who want to ban guns altogether. By that same "logic", if statistically the most traffic deaths involve a blue Chevy, just think how many lives we can save by banning blue Chevys!

Abusus non tollit usum; "Abuse does not take away use"; abuse is not an argument against legitimate use.

Dmitri Popov
January 6, 2012, 01:17 AM
This is just another case of someone blaming an inanimate object for a crime. The bb gun didn't brandish itself, it took a living, breathing, semi-thinking individual.
Suicide-by-cop is a terrible, and exceptionally selfish way of killing ones-self
Most of the time the officer either never recovers fully from such an incident, or takes a very long time too. There is no point to trying regulate something like the bb guns and such, not when anyone with a pocket knife and a can of spray paint can widdle a convincing firearm replica from a 2x4. This is not anything that can be fixed by regulation, but something that must be dealt with at a family and community level.

Zombiphobia
January 6, 2012, 03:17 AM
Hey 9mmEpiphany, I get all that, not arguing your point, just saying... he might've been retarded and not trying to commit suicide by cop, just really really dumb, or maybe he WAS in it to be killed. Maybe he wanted to 'prove' something, god only knows what. Nobody knows, including you. You're merely speculating like everyone else.

I didn't say anything about sympathy and I have little to none for anyone involved. Cops don't need sympathy, anyway; they knew what they were doing when they joined the force, right? Same as anyone wanting to shake my hand and thank me for my 'service'.. puhfrickinlease. If you people only knew how many psychopaths, sociapaths and just plain crazy people join the military or police force for the chance to kill or to have the badge=authority, you'd think twice about that gratitude and 'sympathy'. Quite frankly it's insulting and disturbing how naive people like you can be.
And yes, I'm well aware I'll catch all sorts of Hell for that, but it's reality. Accept it or live in denial; your choice.

But it's really inconsequential now, isn't it? Just like the reasoning for this dummy doing what he did or what alternate action those cops may have miraculously pulled from their magic hats. The point is the guy did something incredibly stupid and the cops reacted.

Nobody knows why it happened, unless he told a classmate beforehand who may come forward and explain his whacky motives, but even then.. nobody really knows except him and he's dead now. Age and education level probably have nothing whatsoever to do with it.

But I really like how preachy you are about the whole thing. His parents should be angry at themselves for not preventing this... dude, there have been plenty of people who turned bad WITH good parenting. Some people are just born stupid and/or crazy.

Jeffery Dahmer had a 'good family'. He was a sociopath. Ted Bundy had a 'good family'- ooh sociopath. How about the guy that started the Jonestown cult??? Well he was a LOT of drugs which can and will destroy the mind. David Berkowitz(i dunno if I spelled that correctly)- Pyschopath. I have no clue about his upbringing.

But I'm sure you think all of these people had poor parenting because their parents failed to 'prevent' the atrocious actions their offspring committed. Some people are just simply wired that way. Being a sociopath, a pyschopath, suicidal and poorly reared imbecile are all different things.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 6, 2012, 04:08 AM
I think your light is trying really hard to come on and for you to see that its not the toys fault but you gotta quit fiddling with the switch or you'll blow out the bulb.

Uhhh Starting to???? As usual, with a lot on here, reading is not fundamental! See post number 5 by ME then you may apologize. Everyone wants to jump on the pile without actually reading. As usual they THINK they know but 9 times out of 10 they have no idea. Just like some on here with their Darwin theories. I really hope natural selection passes their reproductive cycle with the attitudes they have towards kids. (Quoted part of post 5 for you jojo)

But parents seem to not feel the need to teach responsible behavior with these replicas. They seem to feel that their children can't get hurt with them since they are "just a toy".

That concept is one that is paralyzing. No matter what you do to make kids safe, I can come up with a way that is humanly possible to make them a little safer. The idea that we should do EVERYTHING humanly possible would be impossibly destructive to a functioning society.

We should do what is REASONABLE and PRUDENT to protect children. If we were to do EVERYTHING that is humanly possible, kids wouldn't be allowed to ride in cars, swim in swimming pools, go out and have contact with other kids who might pass illnesses to them, shoot, play with animals that can spread diseases or act unpredictably at times, travel in airplanes, the list is literally ENDLESS.

You have to introduce the concept of "reasonable" into the equation or there's no end to the restrictions that "must" be imposed in the interest of "saving the children.

JonKSA, do you find it Reasonable and Prudent to hand your 8 year old kid the keys to your car and say "hit the road"? You find it reasonable and prudent to let your 5 year old go out to the pool alone? You find it reasonable and prudent to let a 6 year old take one of these toys out in public where someone that has absolutely no clue about firearms may yell gun and some young inexperienced LEO turns to see that toy pointed at him? Kid playing cops and robbers. Don't say that can't happen because it already HAS happened more than once!

My point here is to educate parents that these things CAN and HAVE BEEN mistaken MANY times for the real thing and have gotten children killed. It has happened more often over the past 10 years.

You guys with the ban logic going have that crap on your brains with every damn statement made that even HINTS of it leading to bans. While I find no logical reason for these toys to be perfect copies of real firearms, the toy makers are free to make them and people are free to buy them. It's a free society and I know this. Considering I have fought, bled, and killed for this country I may know it a little more than a lot of you armchair keyboard warriors. My main point is the education of parents on the damn things. (wonder how many times I need to freaking type that before some of you guys will allow it to freaking sink in!) YES I would love to see some possible changes in them to make them more identifiable to LEO's and yes I can see the criminal element tapping in to that.

Shadow 7D
January 6, 2012, 04:20 AM
You guys with the ban logic going have that crap on your brains with every damn statement made that even HINTS of it leading to bans. While I find no logical reason for these toys to be perfect copies of real firearms, the toy makers are free to make them and people are free to buy them. It's a free society and I know this. Considering I have fought, bled, and killed for this country I may know it a little more than a lot of you armchair keyboard warriors. My main point is the education of parents on the damn things. (wonder how many times I need to freaking type that before some of you guys will allow it to freaking sink in!) YES I would love to see some possible changes in them to make them more identifiable to LEO's and yes I can see the criminal element tapping in to that.

Then quit pulling arguments out of the Brady Bunch's play book

OR BETTER
quit blaming the 'toy gun'
an inanimate object (remember this is cover often in those 'irrational fear of guns' threads)

and blame the stupid idiot who decided to PULL A GUN ON COPS
whadda think they'd do, take him out for icecream??

YES I would love to see some possible changes in them to make them more identifiable to LEO's and yes I can see the criminal element tapping in to that

And that is a non starter, see they already are, so what's your brilliant idea, bright colors (easy to do with duracoat) orange muzzles (already mandated)

WHAT???
see
no you don't, and I doubt you will, since once again, you are stuck on equipment.
yeah training the parents are nice, but it still won't stop someone bent on killing themselves.

JRH6856
January 6, 2012, 06:15 AM
Yes, people need to be aware of the dangers of pointing anything at cops. (And I would add especially along the Rio Grande where drug cartels use juveniles as hit men.) You can teach, but you can't force anyone to learn. Some won't. When they don't, you can google the stories and list the tragedies. But you can't stop them, no matter how much you may want to. They are part of life. Teach your children well and hope they learn. It's really all you can do.

dldbrandon
January 6, 2012, 07:31 AM
Uhhh Starting to???? As usual, with a lot on here, reading is not fundamental! See post number 5 by ME then you may apologize. Everyone wants to jump on the pile without actually reading. As usual they THINK they know but 9 times out of 10 they have no idea. Just like some on here with their Darwin theories. I really hope natural selection passes their reproductive cycle with the attitudes they have towards kids. (Quoted part of post 5 for you jojo)





JonKSA, do you find it Reasonable and Prudent to hand your 8 year old kid the keys to your car and say "hit the road"? You find it reasonable and prudent to let your 5 year old go out to the pool alone? You find it reasonable and prudent to let a 6 year old take one of these toys out in public where someone that has absolutely no clue about firearms may yell gun and some young inexperienced LEO turns to see that toy pointed at him? Kid playing cops and robbers. Don't say that can't happen because it already HAS happened more than once!

My point here is to educate parents that these things CAN and HAVE BEEN mistaken MANY times for the real thing and have gotten children killed. It has happened more often over the past 10 years.

You guys with the ban logic going have that crap on your brains with every damn statement made that even HINTS of it leading to bans. While I find no logical reason for these toys to be perfect copies of real firearms, the toy makers are free to make them and people are free to buy them. It's a free society and I know this. Considering I have fought, bled, and killed for this country I may know it a little more than a lot of you armchair keyboard warriors. My main point is the education of parents on the damn things. (wonder how many times I need to freaking type that before some of you guys will allow it to freaking sink in!) YES I would love to see some possible changes in them to make them more identifiable to LEO's and yes I can see the criminal element tapping in to that.

How would you go about making changes to make them more identifiable? It did almost happen. A lot of airsoft distributors are based in Cali because every airsoft part is made in China. It's less shipping that way. This past summer Cali tried to pass some law that stated that all replicas had to be brightly colored. Thankfully it failed. What about paintball? Those are already brightly colored and you still have the same problem. It was already brought up, but if you mandate that replicas have to look all goofy and colorful then criminals will make their real guns look just like that. Then you're back to square one. How do you know if he's holding a real weapon or not?

beatledog7
January 6, 2012, 08:48 AM
Simple truth:

This young person was shot not because of what he was holding but because of how he acted. Why he did what he did may never be known, but one thing is sure -- the next person who acts in a like manner faces the same end, and rightly so.

Actions have consequences. If you jump off a cliff, you hit whatever is below.

Sam1911
January 6, 2012, 09:18 AM
My point here is to educate parents that these things CAN and HAVE BEEN mistaken MANY times for the real thing and have gotten children killed. ... My main point is the education of parents on the damn things.
So...that ... like, IT?

The end of a 107 post long debate comes down to, "tell parents to tell their kids not to point realistic fake guns at cops?"

Really? Well I guess we can all agree on that.

Of course there are a WHOLE lot of other things that take the lives of several orders of magnitude more kids every year than this problem has in the last two and a half decades.

We should make sure we've got ad campaigns to remind parents to teach their kids not to try and breathe water, not to lie on train tracks, not to eat glass, and a great many other things which it seems most folks make it through life without having been specifically educated not to do.

Heck, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that more people are killed by GOATS each year than have died --ever-- due to this fake-gun/real-gun problem.

Every death is tragic, sure, but statistically insignificant anomalies will always be with us. Educating people about all of these self-obvious causes of death really isn't going to reduce the already galacticly small number of those events.

Going back to the original story (and yes, I know the example you used wasn't intended apparently to actually support your assertation...) this kid seems to be a shining example of the fact that folks DO KNOW what happens if you point fake guns at cops.

Sam1911
January 6, 2012, 09:19 AM
Oh, and...

Considering I have fought, bled, and killed for this country I may know it a little more than a lot of you armchair keyboard warriors. Don't be condescending. There are a whale of a lot of members here who have served their country. Many who have taken lives and many who've suffered injury in the line of duty. Your service doesn't give you any greater insight into this issue than anyone else has, nor does service in any way demand or instill some consensus with your opinion on this matter. Say what you feel you must, but let your words stand on their own merits. Don't make a call to authority based on your status as a veteran and don't insult others in a misguided attempt to denigrate their opinions.

mgmorden
January 6, 2012, 09:22 AM
For all the arguments shouting how realistic this gun looks and how that "caused" this, I'd like to submit an older example that this brought to mind:

http://articles.latimes.com/1997/nov/09/news/mn-52054

In this case noted, a teen was shot by LEO (thankfully non-fatallay) holding a Three Muskateers Candy Bar, with the candy bar being confused for a gun.

Trust me, in the heat of the moment it doesn't matter if he was holding a opened up stapler. If there's anything in his hands that looks like there's a barrel and a grip, then cops are going to interpret it as a gun (because the cost of wondering is quite possibly their lives).

By the same token, as Sam1911 noted, with Durakote (and even manufacturer's options) out now, there are plenty of brightly colored guns out there that are completely real:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3389/4598864504_5d4728906a_o.jpg
http://www.thegunsource.com/DisplayPic.aspx?PIC=297184

Tori Nonaka can be seen here using her signature "purple slide" Glock:
http://www.ammoland.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Tori-Nonaka.jpg

Heck being a Clemson fan I'm seriously considering having my M&P's frame done in purple with the removeable backstrap in orange.

It's absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to differentiate between a real gun and a toy gun at a glance. Any time of "identifier" you add is either already invalid, or can be defeated (in either direction - to make toy guns look real or real guns look like toys) so easily as to make such a venture worthless.

Once we make all the toys guns look fake are you going to come back around championing the cause again when a cop gets shot with a real gun that just happened to be marked like a toy one?

This whole discussion makes about as much sense as trying to get cops to make sure that the gun being held is actually loaded before they fire. All you're going to end up with is a lot more dead cops.

hso
January 6, 2012, 09:53 AM
I do NOT care about statistics when it comes to kids.

Then reason has nothing to do with your position and you self-identify that you're willing to change something for everyone based solely on an emotional response to a statistically insignificant risk. There's no broad problem to correct here with these toys and you do not make changes based on statistically insignificant incidents.

And, NO, we're not on your side of the argument if you continue to blame the toy in any way. You argued that the toy is the problem and then claim that WE get the point that the parent and the child have the responsibility to understand that brandishing something that is or looks like a weapon at others is dangerous to the point of being suicidally stupid. WE don't blame the toy for the apparent failures of this teenager and his parents of the most fundamental good sense of not brandishing a weapon at the police in the hallways of a school and neither should you. Make a clear statement abandoning your original position that the toy was responsible for the incident and that all such items need to be changed and people will quit bringing it up as your current opinion.

You can not blame an item for the behavior of an individual.

Considering I have fought, bled, and killed for this country I may know it a little more than a lot of you armchair keyboard warriors.
That is completely irrelevant to a discussion of a teen killed in school by police because he brandished what appeared to be a weapon unless you've killed or had someone killed only to find they didn't pose a real threat. Your personal experience with combat gives you expertise to claim with combat and the trauma associated with use of lethal force and nothing more.

HarleyFixer
January 6, 2012, 10:12 AM
You CANNOT regulate stupidity. The problem is we have tried to eliminate bad behavior and it cannot be done.

Hacker15E
January 6, 2012, 10:16 AM
Considering I have fought, bled, and killed for this country I may know it a little more than a lot of you armchair keyboard warriors.

Thanks for your service.

So have a lot of the people reading/posting in this thread, so it's pretty bad form to think that such service/actions means you "know it a little more" than "a lot of you". That's a pretty hefty assumption, and a terrible way of validating your opinion.

Birch Knoll
January 6, 2012, 10:34 AM
Considering I have fought, bled, and killed for this country I may know it a little more than a lot of you armchair keyboard warriors.

Your service may have been honorable, but waving it around as an insignia of superiority is not. Bad form.

fallout mike
January 6, 2012, 10:57 AM
Freedom fighter, I had no idea you were military! Now that I know I'm forced to agree with you. Real guns and toy guns should only be bought with written permission from the govt.

3KillerBs
January 6, 2012, 11:53 AM
What can be done differently? Teach your kids to not do such things, and if possible, positively influence your kids' friends. Volunteer for community services at the YMCA or Big Brother/Big Sister. Try to educate them as to consequences of behavior and provide some type of discourse that helps them realize that when you are 15, you have a whole life to look forward to. That is where to start.

...

That's the bottom line there.

The toy is not to blame. The young man who chose to misuse it made his tragic decision for reasons of his own and, had all non-gunpowder-powered projectile throwers been visibly distinctive would have used a kitchen knife or an ax or a baseball bat instead.

3KillerBs
January 6, 2012, 11:58 AM
....

I'd think though, if the cops in this story new for a fact the gun was capable of firing only pellets, the kid would still be alive today, albeit with a sore butt and a juvenile record. Not to mention the cops who I'm sure wished the story had a different ending.

You can kill someone with a pellet airgun.

Its easier with a .45, but "lucky" shot placement will do will do the job with the pellet gun.

There's no "only" involved when the business end of a weapon is being pointed at you.

3KillerBs
January 6, 2012, 12:11 PM
... I DID say that I personally see no reason for toy guns to look so realistic and I have YET to see anyone give one single intelligent answer to that question. ...

What part of "people like them that way" did you find unintelligent?

The first pistol I ever shot, the coolest thing in the college dorm I lived in, was a friend's Crossman SoftAir Luger. It was cool because it was just like the real thing -- even to throwing the empty shells in your face. And in the early '80's airsoft guns didn't have the orange tips.

I was hoping for an airsoft Beretta 92 under the Christmas tree myself. I don't want it in candy pink or neon green because I'm not 10 years old anymore.

9mmepiphany
January 6, 2012, 12:48 PM
Would you consider this non-realistic enough? (sidenote: these are both the current rage on my son's college campus...an Art College in CA)
http://images.sneakhype.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/NERF-Vortex-Disc-Shooter.jpg
or maybe this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BfCHMUD9BeM/TtPmSevQJVI/AAAAAAAAJQw/_ivGCMX8G50/s1600/nerf%2Bvortex%2Bproton.jpg

While, as a LEO, I would take a moment to investigate further if encountered in public, the response would change completely if I had to respond to a call and had one suddenly pointed at me.

The call from the school was that a student was on campus with a handgun and had already assualted another student. Teachers could be heard pleading with him to put the gun down. When the police arrived, he ran down a hallway (invalidating the suggestion that they could have tased him or used pepper spray). The officers could be heard yelling, "Put down the gun" and "Put it on the ground". He could be heard yelling, "I'm ready to die"

It wasn't the gun/toy that caused the shooting. It was caused by his actions that afternoon

medalguy
January 6, 2012, 12:50 PM
Just suppose that kid had stepped out in front of an 18 wheeler. Would you be calling for a ban on 18 wheelers? If anyone wants to die they will find a way.

Hey life isn't fair. I learned that at about age 4.

mgmorden
January 6, 2012, 01:01 PM
Would you consider this non-realistic enough? (sidenote: these are both the current rage on my son's college campus...an Art College in CA)
http://images.sneakhype.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/NERF-Vortex-Disc-Shooter.jpg


Even then, after a can of spray paint:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HbJ5yG98yJk/Twcn901lpUI/AAAAAAAAAwE/9OYVVZ-zgmo/s0-d/black-gun.png

If someone points that at a LEO or anyone else you can bet they're going to take it as a threat. There's just no time to determine whether or not the guns real.

Realistically, any attempt at "codifying" real vs toy guns under some steadfast rule is folly.

youngda9
January 6, 2012, 01:17 PM
This was suicide by cops. The cops absolutely did the right thing.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Black Butte
January 6, 2012, 01:20 PM
Darwin called it "natural selection."

InkEd
January 6, 2012, 01:21 PM
You cannot blame an inanimate object for properly doing it's designated function. The problem is the people using them. They exist because people want them. The vast majority of my toy guns were VERY realistic. Many were made prior to the use of the red and later orange muzzle caps. I was taught to never point them at strangers or police.

I see little difference between airsoft guns and the toys I had as a kid.

hso
January 6, 2012, 01:29 PM
There really doesn't seem to be any point of going on having everyone argue against the idea that the item is responsible in any way for the behavior of a teen that made a series of very bad decisions that lead to his death.

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