Lee FCD hitting every round


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robMaine
January 5, 2012, 04:41 PM
So I just finished my first 10 reloads. They are 10mm, 180gr XTP, 8.1gr Blue Dot, WLP primers. Everything seemed to go well with the exception of a few bullet seating issues on my first 2.

However when I ran them through the FCD, every round caught the carbide ring on the way out. I have heard this means something is wrong in my other steps, any ideas on what would cause this? I am at a loss

UPDATE UPDATE:

I added this in so people facing this problem don't have to go through the whole thread. Based upon replys and further research, if you are bumping on the way into the die, you may have an issue with your previous steps as the round is being resized. A bump on the way out, is normal, it is the carbide ring smoothing the crimp out a bit.

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beatledog7
January 5, 2012, 04:48 PM
I've had the FCD do this when I load .357 Magnum. Don't know what causes it, but many people say there is a post-sizing function to this die. I suppose it has something to do with the bullet having expanded the case, which it is supposed to do, and the ring just catching on that expanded portion.

Have you tried running a sized and flared but not loaded (no bullet) case through the crimping function? I'm guessing it would not exhibit this characteristic.

markdoddridge
January 5, 2012, 04:54 PM
God i hate the Lee FCD, i mean i really hate it. I pretty much dont crimp at all anymore, and when i do i use a Light roll crimp.

k4swb
January 5, 2012, 04:56 PM
However when I ran them through the FCD, every round caught the carbide ring on the way out. I have heard this means something is wrong in my other steps, any ideas on what would cause this? I am at a loss
Hitting on the way in on the case mouth and or bullet area is normal. Probably shouldn't hit with XTPs at all on the bullet area.

Hitting on the way out doesn't sound right to me.

jcwit
January 5, 2012, 04:57 PM
Toss it, end of problem it couldn't find.

Or the problem it made!

robMaine
January 5, 2012, 04:58 PM
Hitting on the way in on the case mouth and or bullet area is normal. Probably shouldn't hit with XTPs at all on the bullet area.

Hitting on the way out doesn't sound right to me.
Every time I pulled a bullet out I got this "bump" of resistance, what is weird is I can run the same round through again and again and I get it everytime, so it doesn't seem to be resizing anything,

beatledog7
January 5, 2012, 05:08 PM
Every time I pulled a bullet out I got this "bump" of resistance, what is weird is I can run the same round through again and again and I get it everytime, so it doesn't seem to be resizing anything

I get the same effect.

The RCBS .38/.357 die set I have is a TC vice RC set, meaning it taper crimps (that purchase was in error, just didn't know any better at the time). That's why I acquired the FCD. It does do a nice job of applying roll crimp.

robMaine
January 5, 2012, 05:42 PM
I think I am just going to work with it and see what happens, it only catches if I crimp, I can push the case in and out without crimping and nothing happens. Seems to be cleaning up a bump caused by crimping.

1KPerDay
January 5, 2012, 06:04 PM
Mine does the same with most rounds to a varying degree. With some brass it seems more regular (thicker brass, perhaps). I've checked my ammo in the usual ways (barrel "thunk" test, function test) both before and after entering the FCD and they all function fine. Using the FCD I've had zero malfunctions, and produced accurate ammo. The sizing ring might be a bit tight, or it might just be ironing out a minimal bulge somewhere.

IMO don't worry about it IF the ammo functions properly and is accurate for you.

FYI here's a thread where I asked about the same issue; some good info to consider.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=594325

J2FLAN
January 5, 2012, 06:17 PM
I get the "bump" in and out on MOST of the 45acp I load , I have pulled and checked the bullets, no distortian of any kind to the bullets. I have tryed two FCDs, and cast bullets from different casters, same thing. I think as long as the die is not resizing the bullet, all is good.
On the 38 spcl. the sizing ring very seldom hits, not sure why in either case. Anyway, never a feeding issue with the 45s since I started useing FCD years back.

918v
January 5, 2012, 06:55 PM
The FCD is unnecessary if you do all the prior operations correctly.

Blue68f100
January 5, 2012, 07:13 PM
I have no use for the LCD. That die was made to correct a nonexistent problem. Using it on pistol ammo is a waste. Besides if your using it on a soft lead you deform the bullet which kills your bullet fit to barrel.

Throw the die away, not needed.

Rodentman
January 5, 2012, 07:27 PM
I use some FCD's. I like the knob adjustment and the roll crimp on revolver ammo. Sometimes with lead bullets they will catch on the die. The only caliber that I felt was catching too much was .44 mag and I discontinued the FCD for that. I don't like crimping with the seating die. Prefer separate Redding crimp dies and have several of them.

pandc
January 5, 2012, 07:37 PM
I use the Lee factory crimp die on 9mm and 45acp....mine does the little bump thing also and have no issues...many 100's of rounds crimped and HAPPY. Dont over-think it if it works well in your gun you are good to go : )

JDGray
January 5, 2012, 07:38 PM
Its all in the thickness of the brass, how much bell you apply. I barely bell enough to get a bullet to set(fmj), and mine still bumps like you say. I've measured the case mouth before and after, and its never changed. I like it for the simple fact of seperating the seating and crimping, and it fills a hole in my turret. I didn't have a problem before I bought them, and still don't have any now. But I agree that if you need one to get your ammo to work, you do have issues to correct, but if you prefer to seperate crimping and seating, its a very nice tool.

robMaine
January 5, 2012, 08:30 PM
Thanks for all the replys. They chamber and function fine so I am going to shoot em and see how it goes.

Steve C
January 5, 2012, 08:56 PM
Every time I pulled a bullet out I got this "bump" of resistance, what is weird is I can run the same round through again and again and I get it everytime, so it doesn't seem to be resizing anything,

What you are likely "feeling" is the sleeve inside the die that does the crimping and has some slide movement in the die as it grabs and releases the case mouth when pulling out the sized round. Cleaning the crimping area on this part can help this "grabbing".

Tom609
January 5, 2012, 09:22 PM
Mine does it with lead bullets, but rarely if ever with copper bullets. Thousands of rounds later, no problems to speak of. I thought nothing of it until you mentioned it. As mentioned by Steve, I clean them good, especially after using the lead.

Hondo 60
January 5, 2012, 09:32 PM
I get the bump on .357 mag.
I too don't know what the cause is, but, my rounds all fit in the Wilson case gauge & my revolver.

john wall
January 6, 2012, 11:17 AM
As a Commercial loader, I use and recommend the FCD. If you want ammo to chamber and fire EVERY TIME, use it.

Thick brass, slightly oversize bullet, does not matter. A great looking round that does not chamber is worthless.

Once it is set the way you want it, you don't have to change it around.

USSR
January 6, 2012, 11:27 AM
If you want ammo to chamber and fire EVERY TIME, use it.


Gosh, how do you explain all the reloaders over decades, having their reloads "chamber and fire EVERY TIME" without the FCD.:rolleyes:

Don

glockky
January 6, 2012, 11:45 AM
I think its preference thing. I personally like the LFC die, but of course on here if somoeone doesnt use it then it automatically sucks. The FC die just smoothes out any small inperfections there might be, and I have never had a round not feed when using the FCD. The people who claim it resizes bullets have the die adjusted wrong.

Dont take everything you read on here to heart. All i heard was how unique wouldnt feed through a auto disc powder measure, finially i tried it and after measuring 30 in a row that weighed within .2 i was really upset at myself to not using it a year ago just because i read it didnt work.

showmebob
January 6, 2012, 12:01 PM
I have used and sometimes still use the FCD. And yes, I get that awful bump. As was stated above, if you want to make sure the ammo works every time then use it. But, in 7000 rounds of loading 9mm there has only been one time the die was really necessary.

I somehow buckled a case while seating the bullet. There was a large horseshoe shape in the side of the case about a 16th of an inch deep. I took the case off the press and rolled it across the bench. Yes, it was bent and went bump, bump, bump while rolling. I thought, Hmm, FCD, lets see if this thing really works so I put the case back into the press and ran it through the die and then did the bench test again. Perfect roll! Straight as an arrow. So the real test is if it would run through the gun at the range. It did with no problems whatsoever.

If I had not caught my mistake either on the press or when loading a mag there would definately have been a malfunction during shooting.

The fact is that I did catch the mistake and it has only happened once. Therefore I don't see the FCD as a necessary item. However I do use it as a seperate crimp die at times.
I have heard of people knocking out the carbide insert and using the die only as a crimp die without the resizing effect.

RandyP
January 6, 2012, 12:16 PM
I would also suggest that when in doubt - ask the guy who made it - I have called and found Lee's customer service staff to be extremely courteous, friendly and helpful.

The phone number to Lee Precision is :

Hours of operation: Monday through Friday 7:30am-3:45pm Central Standard Time (CST)
phone: (262) 673-3075
fax: (262) 673-9273

1KPerDay
January 6, 2012, 12:22 PM
The people who claim it resizes bullets have the die adjusted wrong.
Or are shooting oversized lead pills. :)

I supposed technically it's not sizing/acting on the bullet directly, but you put an oversized bullet in a case and run it through, it's going to squish the bullet at least a bit (but actually 'sizing' using pressure through the case walls).

k4swb
January 6, 2012, 01:33 PM
A couple of years ago I got at least two large batches of plated bullets from two different mfgs. that were out of round. All the bullets in each batch were not OOR and I guess as I was checking things I was unlucky enough to miss all the bad ones.

Found them pretty quick when I started shooting them. Instead of pulling all the hundreds of rounds that would not chamber, I just bought a FCD and ran all of them through it. I could tall every time when one was not right.

The FCD "fixed" them and I've been using it every since for plated bullets with great results.

I like the crimp adjustment better on the FCD than just screwing the die in and out.

mdi
January 6, 2012, 03:38 PM
Yep I tried it on my .44 Magnum, once. I separately seat and crimp and the FCD was what I had so I tried it. It swaged down my lead bullets so I got leading from a proven "no leading" load. I still have it somewhere out in the shed, but I now crimp with a RCBS roll crimp die. As for my 45 ACP, I have never had any problems chambering my reloads so there is no need for a FCD...

res7s
January 7, 2012, 06:29 AM
I could use a 44 mag FCD if you want to donate it to me, or we could swap something. I think it would make a pretty snazzy .457-.458" sizing die. Used for sizing anything that needs to be .457" or .458" in diameter.

918v
January 7, 2012, 12:00 PM
The people who claim it resizes bullets have the die adjusted wrong.

How does adjustment of this doe affect bullet size???

Chuck Perry
January 7, 2012, 12:38 PM
Check your OAL before and after running a round through the Lee FCD. It's been my experience, particularly with lead bullets, that the round will be slightly longer after it's been through the die.

918v
January 7, 2012, 01:06 PM
That's because the bullet is swaged down in the case, thereby making it longer.

Chuck Perry
January 7, 2012, 01:39 PM
Really? Has anyone pulled a bullet and done a measurement before/after to confirm this? I always figured the greater OAL was caused by the bullet "catching" on the carbide ring as the cartridge was being removed from the die, causing it to move forward slightly.

rondog
January 7, 2012, 02:04 PM
I think its preference thing. I personally like the LFC die, but of course on here if somoeone doesnt use it then it automatically sucks. The FC die just smoothes out any small inperfections there might be, and I have never had a round not feed when using the FCD. The people who claim it resizes bullets have the die adjusted wrong.

Dont take everything you read on here to heart. All i heard was how unique wouldnt feed through a auto disc powder measure, finially i tried it and after measuring 30 in a row that weighed within .2 i was really upset at myself to not using it a year ago just because i read it didnt work.


I agree. I use the Lee FCD's on 12 calibers and like them, they give me no troubles. If a person's having an issue, call Lee about it. But there's no end to the guys here that tell us we're idiots because we don't do everything exactly THEIR way. And not just about FCD's or reloading either. Self-righteousness abounds here.

918v
January 7, 2012, 02:32 PM
The carbide ring does not touch the bullet. It touches the case. It swages the case and the case in turn swages the bullet wchich is sitting in the case. And Yes, my 45 ACP FCD reduced .452" bullets to .451" after I pulled them, so I sold it.

EddieNFL
January 7, 2012, 05:38 PM
Gosh, how do you explain all the reloaders over decades, having their reloads "chamber and fire EVERY TIME" without the FCD.

Proper technique?

beatledog7
January 7, 2012, 05:53 PM
Does it make you guys feel good to trash anyone who finds a use for the FCD?

I use my .38/.357 FCD to crimp in a separate step, thus avoiding case trimming. I use my .40 to remove the Glock bulge from pick-up brass that needs this step.

Does any of that mean there's something inadequate about my technique?

How about lighten up.

k4swb
January 7, 2012, 05:58 PM
Gosh, how do you explain all the reloaders over decades, having their reloads "chamber and fire EVERY TIME" without the FCD. Better QC on the bullets at the manufacturer in my case. The plated bullets I ended up with were of poor quality from two different manufacturers. So far it has been a one time thing. They were the first out of many plated bullets that were bad and I have not gotten any since.

I blamed it on the rush when the last presidential election was over.

bds
January 7, 2012, 08:45 PM
These comments are for semi-auto pistol FCD.

I believe the FCD was originally meant to be used with jacketed bullets and jacketed bullet diameters as many posted the inside diameter of the carbide sizer ring won't affect finished round that's spec'd for jacketed bullets.
Mine does it with lead bullets, but rarely if ever with copper bullets.

Personally, I make my jacketed diameter loads work without the FCD. Making the finished rounds reliably fit the tight chambers of Lone Wolf barrels does take some work, but have been happily doing it for quite a few years. My FCDs collect dust in the die box. For 40S&W, you could use it to reduce the bulged case base that regular resizing die can't reach by push-through sizing. But if your cases continues to bulge like that, I would reduce the powder charge/change powder or use a tighter chambered barrel that's fully supported instead of continuing to rework that part of the case which may weaken it.

I really don't see any problem of using FCD for jacketed diameter bullets, especially if one wants to seat and taper crimp in separate steps.


However, some people who used the FCD for larger diameter lead bullets have reported having issues with leading, neck tension and/or bullet setback along with decreased accuracy. Well, then don't use the FCD for larger diameter lead bullets. :D

If the carbide sizer ring post-sizes the lead bullet, brass case will spring back away from the lead bullet which remains in the post-sized diameter. This may lead to reduced bullet-to-barrel fit, reduced neck tension, increase bullet set back and inconsistent chamber pressures.
The carbide ring does not touch the bullet. It touches the case. It swages the case and the case in turn swages the bullet wchich is sitting in the case. And Yes, my 45 ACP FCD reduced .452" bullets to .451"

Another issue raised is the swaging of lead bullets increasing the OAL. If you are using max load data and measuring the OAL before the finished round is post-sized with the FCD, then you may have issues, especially if you are at Max OAL for your barrel.

Check your OAL before and after running a round through the Lee FCD. It's been my experience, particularly with lead bullets, that the round will be slightly longer after it's been through the die.
That's because the bullet is swaged down in the case, thereby making it longer.

Many posted that they want to seat and taper crimp lead bullets in separate steps as to reduce the shaving of the bullet sides. I add .020" to the diameter of the lead bullets to determine the taper crimp to use (so for .356" bullet, .376" taper crimp; for .401" bullet, .421" taper crimp; for .452" bullet, .472" taper crimp, etc.) and rarely have issues with shaving of the bullets. But I do appreciate the rationale and for this, you can opt to knock out the carbide sizer ring so you can seat/taper crimp in separate steps without post-sizing the lead bullet.
I would also suggest that when in doubt - ask the guy who made it - I have called and found Lee's customer service staff to be extremely courteous, friendly and helpful.
Yes they are and offer the service of enlarging the diameter and repolishing the carbide sizer ring for a nominal fee. This way you can use the FCD for lead bullets without worrying about post-sizing the bullet diameter and seat/taper crimp in separate steps.


I got at least two large batches of plated bullets from two different mfgs. that were out of round. All the bullets in each batch were not OOR and I guess as I was checking things I was unlucky enough to miss all the bad ones.
Keep in mind that not all plated bullets are sized the same as jacketed. Berry's bullets are typically sized similar to lead bullet diameters and may get post-sized like lead bullets. X-Treme 9mm bullets are sized at .355"/.356"/.357" and PowerBond 9mm bullets are sized at .3555" so if you find yourself post-sizing these bullets, they may not be "out of round" but simply sized larger. ;)


Now, if Lee Precision would offer FCDs with different sized threaded carbide sizer like in the discontinued Speed Dies, it would solve problems for reloaders wanting to use the FCD for both jacketed and lead diameter bullets. :D BTW, John Lee of Lee Precision did say he may consider such a product if the market interest was sufficient. So, if you are interested in such a product, speak up on this thread so we can let Mr. Lee know.

Discontinued Lee Speed Die showing removable threaded sizer ring.
http://www.wideners.com/images/fulls/carbdie%20SPEED%20DIES.jpg

k4swb
January 7, 2012, 09:02 PM
I got at least two large batches of plated bullets from two different mfgs. that were out of round. All the bullets in each batch were not OOR and I guess as I was checking things I was unlucky enough to miss all the bad ones.Keep in mind that not all plated bullets are sized the same as jacketed. Berry's bullets are typically sized similar to lead bullet diameters and may get post-sized like lead bullets. X-Treme 9mm bullets are sized at .355"/.356"/.357" and PowerBond 9mm bullets are sized at .3555" so if you find yourself post-sizing these bullets, they may not be "out of round" but simply sized larger. ;)This was before the companies started double/re striking all their bullets and they were obviously out of spec.
My cousin ran into the same trouble with bullets bought around the same time.

Not all of the bullets in the batch I got were out of round but about half were. I dropped over 1000 rounds in my chambers to check and ended up having to run about half of them through the FCD.

Heck of a lot easier than pulling the low quality bullets and they ended up shooting just fine.

Since then both mfgs. have been post sizing all their bullets after plating and I have not had the problem again.

bds
January 7, 2012, 09:19 PM
Not all of the bullets in the batch I got were out of round but about half were. I dropped over 1000 rounds in my chambers to check and ended up having to run about half of them through the FCD.
That may have been the case, but there is another factor to consider and that is the bullet ogive hitting the start of rifling.

For another thread, I was testing the absolute Max OAL of Berry's 185 gr HBRN in Sig 1911 with very quick start of rifling by dropping the test round in 90 degrees rotations (dropped 4 times for each OAL) and found that not all the rotations passed the drop test at 1.26" OAL (amount of taper crimp was not changed, just the OAL).

My impression was that the start of rifling/ogive of the bullet were not the same for all the rotations and the bullet's ogive was hitting the start of rifling. Decreasing the OAL to 1.25" ensured all the rotations passed the drop test without hitting the start of rifling.

Post-sizing the bullet diameter could also reduce the ogive contact away from the rifling to allow the finished round to chamber deeper, but that may not have been the case for your situation.

1SOW
January 7, 2012, 09:33 PM
I have heard this means something is wrong in my other steps, any ideas on what would cause this? I am at a loss

This is unlikely to be a problem, IF the OAL is correct as bds said above.
The FCD ring is set to saami std size for that caliber. If the case were "lubed" you probably wouldn't feel it "touch" the case coming out.
For my 9mm, I've found much as others have already said about about brass and bullet diameter variations and one more thing.
Brass does have some "spring" to it. When you size it, it's squeezed to size and released. You can size it again and it will go in the resizing die MUCH easier, but it will STILL BUMP THE DIE, just much lighter. The harder/thicker brass cases (like WIN in 9mm) will do it MORE than the softer brass like F.C. in 9mm.
The FCD in 9mm on my press hits just a fraction lower on the case than the sizing die. It will also have a little friction coming out of the FCD, just like yours.

Hope this makes sense.

medalguy
January 7, 2012, 09:47 PM
I use a Lee FCD in 45 also, and I feel the bump you describe. I have found that when loading jacketed bullets I don't need to bell the case mouth very much, but with plated bullets a little more bell is required less the bullet snag on the edge of the case and rip the plating off. To work around this problem, I started belling a little more, and found it harder to taper crimp and get all the belling out. The Lee FCD solved this problem, and yields excellent ammo. I've loaded thousands of rounds of this ammo and not had the first malfunction.

If the bump doesn't bother you, don't worry about it. It doesn't seem to hurt a thing.

beatledog7
January 7, 2012, 10:07 PM
This from bds.
But if your cases continues to bulge like that, I would reduce the powder charge/change powder or use a tighter chambered barrel that's fully supported instead of continuing to rework that part of the case which may weaken it.

Just to be clear, all my .40 loads are middle of the road. I use the FCD to take the bulge out of brass I buy as once fired. About 10% of them usually fail the case gauge after resizing, and the FCD fixes about 90% of those. If they fail after the FCD, they get recycled.

And FWIW, my .40 is a Gen4 Glock, and the issues of older Glock .40s are absent.

bds
January 7, 2012, 10:27 PM
The FCD ring is set to saami std size for that caliber.
Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of variations in thickness of case wall depending on head stamp and production lot and thicker case walls mean less space for the diameter of the bullet inside the case.


I have found that when loading jacketed bullets I don't need to bell the case mouth very much, but with plated bullets a little more bell is required less the bullet snag on the edge of the case and rip the plating off. To work around this problem, I started belling a little more, and found it harder to taper crimp and get all the belling out. The Lee FCD solved this problem, and yields excellent ammo. I've loaded thousands of rounds of this ammo and not had the first malfunction.
Well, I could see the waves of reloaders about to protest, "But what about all of us who don't use FCD to load our ammunition. We also use plated bullets and do not have malfunction issues." :D

Most match shooters I have shot with do not use Lee dies nor FCD for their match loads. And believe me, they use match barrels with tighter fully supported chambers. Need to use FCD to make their match ammunition more reliable would not be an option for them. I use larger diameter Berry's plated bullets (along with Rainier/PowerBond/X-Treme) and Lee dies without the FCD. Using .020" added to the diameter of the bullet for taper crimp works well, even in tight chambered Lone Wolf and Sig 1911 barrels.

I wonder if Atlanta Arms & Ammo (http://www.atlantaarmsandammo.com/MATCH_AMMO/match_ammo.html) who supplies various match shooting teams (Team Glock and the US Army AMU, etc.) use FCD to ensure their new and reloaded ammunition function properly.

bds
January 7, 2012, 10:37 PM
I use the FCD to take the bulge out of brass I buy as once fired. About 10% of them usually fail the case gauge after resizing, and the FCD fixes about 90% of those. If they fail after the FCD, they get recycled.
If you push-through resize the bulged cases in FCD, won't they all pass the gauge?

Do your middle-of-the-road load cases shot in Gen4 Glocks resize to specs just with the regualr resizing die?

beatledog7
January 7, 2012, 11:11 PM
If you push-through resize the bulged cases, won't they all pass the gauge?

Do your middle-of-the-road load cases shot in Gen4 Glocks resize to specs just with the regualr resizing die?

I suspect the ones that don't pass are simply too bulged to retain the resizing--they spring back into their bulged state and so are done. The ones I shoot in my Gen4 G22 resize just fine with an RCBS carbide die and don't need to "de-Glocked," as it is often called.

bds
January 7, 2012, 11:28 PM
If your spent cases resize within specs with the regular resizing die, you are good to go. :D

beatledog7
January 7, 2012, 11:41 PM
Yes, I know. Thanks.

918v
January 7, 2012, 11:45 PM
If one needs a case gauge to verify his reloads, he needs to work on his technique.

beatledog7
January 8, 2012, 12:07 AM
If one reloads using a bullet one has never used before, one must have a method for verifying the new round will chamber.

I know that for .40 S&W rounds other than cast lead (which I test in my Storm Lake barrel then test chamber from the magazine), a round which passes the drop-in/fall-out test in the tightly spec'd case gauge will feed and chamber in both the SL and factory Glock barrels. The gauge is stored in the die box, so it's also convenient.

Once I get the dies set and locked in, the gauge isn't needed again until I run a new batch, but sometimes I drop every tenth round or so in just to ensure nothing has slipped. So, what about that tells you my technique is weak?

918v
January 8, 2012, 01:20 AM
If one reloads using a bullet one has never used before, one must have a method for verifying the new round will chamber.


And that is dropping the round into one's chamber.

res7s
January 8, 2012, 02:49 AM
I use case gauges(bought separately) and the LCD that came with my die set. I've not experienced any problems with leading and it pretty much drives tacks. I cast my own 185gr(supposed to be 175gr) TC bullets. I recommend crimping in a separate step to all the newbies. I don't however think the LCD is for everyone. As far as I know all the companies make dedicated crimping dies.

None of these dies have the carbide ring. If you want to crimp in a separate step, these will do it.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/537204/hornady-custom-grade-new-dimension-taper-crimp-die-40-s-and-w-10mm-auto?cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Reloading+-+Dies+%26+Shellholders-_-PriceCompListing-_-537204
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/673624/lee-taper-crimp-die-40-s-and-w-10mm-auto
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/811795/lyman-taper-crimp-die-40-s-and-w-10mm-auto
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/562040/redding-taper-crimp-die-40-s-and-w-10mm-auto

beatledog7
January 8, 2012, 07:49 AM
918v:
If one needs a case gauge to verify his reloads, he needs to work on his technique.

beatledog7:
If one reloads using a bullet one has never used before, one must have a method for verifying the new round will chamber.

918v:
And that is dropping the round into one's chamber.

I invite you to try again, 918v. I could drop the new round into my barrel, but that would require two operations because I use two barrels. It would also require that I disassemble the gun. So I choose to use a gauge which I know to be less forgiving than either of my barrels and which is always on my bench.

Specifically, what's wrong with that, and why do you insist that the practice indicates weak technique?

k4swb
January 8, 2012, 08:13 AM
Originally Posted by k4swb
Not all of the bullets in the batch I got were out of round but about half were. I dropped over 1000 rounds in my chambers to check and ended up having to run about half of them through the FCD.
That may have been the case, but there is another factor to consider and that is the bullet ogive hitting the start of rifling.You are correct, it could have been, but in this case it was not.

918v
January 8, 2012, 12:29 PM
I invite you to try again, 918v. I could drop the new round into my barrel, but that would require two operations because I use two barrels. It would also require that I disassemble the gun. So I choose to use a gauge which I know to be less forgiving than either of my barrels and which is always on my bench.



I shall partake of your invitation and thank you for it:

You should routinely disassemble your gun for cleaning. It is not that hard. Your chamber is alot more accurate than your gauge. For example, case gauges do not address the distance from bullet to rifling. If you have a bullet you have never used before, only your chamber will tell you if the OAL is too long. Some guns are short chambered, i.e. CZ.

May your morning be blessed and full of joy.

Stormin.40
January 8, 2012, 02:30 PM
I purchased the FCD so that I could crimp in a seperate step. I found that I was increasing my OAL by 0.001 this happened with Rainer plated bullets which I thought were .400 sized. I now just adjust my RCBS seater/crimp die to do it all in one step. I do occationally peal the thin plating or a little lead (when loading lead) when doing both in one step but this is <1% of the time and only because I didn't start the bullet square. I still use the FCD but as a buldge buster and push through all range pickup brass just to be sure.

If it didn't change my OAL I would still use it, I thought about seating my rounds 0.001 deeper and letting the FCD stretch them but decided against it since it must be doing some amount of post sizing to incease OAL and that didn't make me comfortable.

Do what works for you as long as it is safe.

beatledog7
January 8, 2012, 03:01 PM
Thank you, 918v.

My .40 gets fired about once a month, but depending on the number and type of rounds, I don't always clean it after every session. Sometimes I just reload it and put it back where it goes. But I do know how to take it apart and clean it; it's easy, as you said. Hey, it's a Glock.

I have loaded a broad range of bullets, including some lead HPs with a big, fat ogive. I have yet to find one that will fully chamber in my gauge but not in both barrels; the distance to the rifling on both is quite generous. The gauge, on the other hand, is tight and short.

I should add that in .40 I focus on reliability over accuracy, so seating bullets just off the lands is not a priority.

Not so in 9mm, however. The 9mm is, for me, a target vice defensive caliber. I have a CZ in 9mm, and when I load for it, I do use the barrel itself as a test chamber because of its short distance to the rifling. I set bullets just off the rifling and still find many wind up with a significantly shorter OAL than the manuals suggest.

And to tie this back to the FCD -- I find it unnecessary for crimping .40 and 9mm rounds. In fact, when one doesn't over flare, seating the bullet in these rounds almost always flattens the flare all by itself, making even using the seating die to taper crimp unnecessary.

So you see, we're actually on the same page. Maybe you simply presumed when I said I use a gauge that I don't and haven't used my barrels.

God Bless!

bds
January 8, 2012, 03:07 PM
Keep in mind that even though you are using flat taper crimp (.375" for .355" 9mm and .420" for .400" 40S&W bullets) for plated bullets, I found thickness of case wall varies with manufacture. So with a thicker walled case, you essentially would be applying slight taper crimp and may be cutting into the plating with thinner plated bullets.

Of course, with larger sized plated bullets like Berry's/PowerBond (for 9mm sized .3555"+) and some X-Treme (for 9mm, comes in .355"/.356"/.357" sizes), you would need to adjust the taper crimp or you will end up applying heavy taper crimp. However, for these bullets, plating is much thicker and the bullet simply indent and glides into the case neck without scraping the plating off. If you are using FCD with larger sized plated bullets, you may be post-sizing them and applying taper crimp after the bullet/case passes the carbide sizer ring.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=156481&stc=1&d=1326053183

Walkalong
January 8, 2012, 03:08 PM
And that is dropping the round into one's chamber.
You should routinely disassemble your gun for cleaning. It is not that hard. Your chamber is alot more accurate than your gauge. For example, case gauges do not address the distance from bullet to rifling. If you have a bullet you have never used before, only your chamber will tell you if the OAL is too long. Some guns are short chambered, i.e. CZ.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

beatledog7
January 8, 2012, 03:15 PM
increasing my OAL by 0.001

That much OAL difference might as well be zero. Measurement error could easily be more than that.

I wonder how much postsizing it would take to squeeze a thousandth of an inch of length increase into a .400 or .401 bullet that's got 165-180gr of mass. Can't be much.

PO2Hammer
January 8, 2012, 03:31 PM
I must be doing something wrong.

I only use two dies for loading jacketed bullets in auto pistols, a sizing die and a competition seating die (without built in crimp).

No flaring, no expanding, no crimping, no FCD-ing and my ammo has never been more reliable or accurate.

I think finding a method to seat the bullets straight the first time is more important than crushing them back into alignment after the round is already finished.

918v
January 8, 2012, 03:42 PM
Some bullets are not compatible with your technique, i.e. Speer Gold Dots which have sharp bases. But your technique is compatible with Hornady boat-tailed bullets and I have done the same. In fact, I reloaded a 9mm case 30 times in one sitting at the range using nothing but a Redding sizer and a Competition seater.

PO2Hammer
January 8, 2012, 06:48 PM
I haven't found a jacketed bullet that won't seat properly using just a competition seater including XTP/HAP which have a very sharp base. Never tried the Gold Dot. This technique has worked for me in 9mm, 10mm, .40 and .45acp.

robMaine
January 8, 2012, 07:00 PM
This thread took on a life of its own, thanks everyone for you input.

PO2Hammer
January 8, 2012, 07:17 PM
This thread took on a life of its own
Better get used to it.

Flintknapper
January 8, 2012, 07:19 PM
glockky wrote:

I think its preference thing. I personally like the LFC die, but of course on here if somoeone doesnt use it then it automatically sucks.

Agreed. I think the LEE FCD is excellent and own for every caliber I shoot.

The FC die just smoothes out any small inperfections there might be, and I have never had a round not feed when using the FCD.

Makes a very nice uniform crimp on anything. Whether or not the bullet NEEDS a crimp is up the person who reloads it, but the FCD can't be beat for providing a flawless crimp IF you do decide to use it.


The people who claim it resizes bullets have the die adjusted wrong

There's your answer folks! Nearly everyone who complains about the FCD simply can't set it up correctly. Its not rocket science. In nearly every case...further inquiry turns up the person is OVER crimping.

IF done by sight...set up the die so that you can just see movement of the collet through the top of die. The FCD is NOT supposed to be closed all the way shut.

IF done by "feel" adjust it so that at the bottom of the stroke (arm on your reloading press) you can just perceive some resisitance, NO MORE.

The FCD WILL crush both brass and bullets if you want it to. sheeesh. :rolleyes:

Walkalong
January 8, 2012, 07:26 PM
The people who claim it resizes bullets have the die adjusted wrongSimply wrong. The carbide ring is fixed, obviously, and that is what squeezes the round. ;)

the FCD can't be beat for providing a flawless crimp IF you do decide to use it.
It can be adjusted wrong, just like any crimp.

jcwit
January 8, 2012, 07:45 PM
Simply amazing that reloading accurate handgun ammo was done for years before the advent of the FCD, simply amazing.

However it is good that its available for those that need it, and/or require it. For who knows whatever reason.

I guess!

Personnally I returned to my old way of crimping after adjusting the seating of the bullet and solved all the problems the FCD was attempting to find.

Walkalong
January 8, 2012, 07:52 PM
IF done by sight...set up the die so that you can just see movement of the collet through the top of die. The FCD is NOT supposed to be closed all the way shut.

IF done by "feel" adjust it so that at the bottom of the stroke (arm on your reloading press) you can just perceive some resisitance, NO MORE.Sure you are not talking about the FCD for rifles, which uses a collet, and is an innovative way to crimp rifle rounds?

The FCD for pistols, as being discussed, is totally different.

1SOW
January 8, 2012, 08:03 PM
bds:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SOW
The FCD ring is set to saami std size for that caliber.


Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of variations in thickness of case wall depending on head stamp and production lot and thicker case walls mean less space for the diameter of the bullet inside the case.



Walkalong:

Quote:
The people who claim it resizes bullets have the die adjusted wrong
Simply wrong. The carbide ring is fixed, obviously, and that is what squeezes the round. ;)


I'm not knowledgeable with 40cal or 10mm.
In 9mm the Saami max size is .380".
If the case and bullet combination is deformed using the FCD, one of three things are the problem:
1. The press sizing die was out of proper adjustment and/or the FCD was adjusted improperly.
2. The bullet did not meet saami specs
3. The case didn't meet manufacturer specs.

A recognized 9mm LUGER name brand case with a major manufacturers jacketed/plated bullet; WILL size, load and pass a properly adjusted FCD without damage to the bullet jacketing.
It is perfectly capable of "just closing the bell" to just contact the bullet and still be within SAAMI specs. The ring will allow up to .379-.380" which will pass any reasonable size "9mm LUGER" bullet and case combo.
I "have seen" where my FCD will size just a fraction deeper on the case than my sizing die when both are properly adjusted. If the case was bulged slightly, the FCD can lengthen the case. I've seen a .0005"-.001" increase in length and it's not the caliper tolerance, it's consistantly repeatable with another caliper.

I measure every cartridge oal. I spot check case-mouth diameter/crimp.
I totally agree with 918v about using the pistol's chamber to determine max OAL with new-to-you bullets. A case gage is useful, but won't allow for tight chambers.
I shoot CZs and Sig. If it fits my CZs' chambers properly it will run in the Sig. Takes 5 mins to check and then good-to-go.

The FCD is not some kind of cure-all, but it's also not a source for problems when used as advertised AND NOT INTENTIONALLY MIS-USED.

ADDED LATER: I sort by headstamp. With a change in headstamp, it's possible the FCD taper crimp would need adjustment, especially with plated bullets where jacket damage "can" occur if the crimp is too tight.

beatledog7
January 8, 2012, 08:11 PM
Simply amazing that reloading accurate handgun ammo was done for years before the advent of the FCD, simply amazing.

Amazing also that so many people who don't use FCDs find it necessary to bash on those who do. Not exactly THR.

jcwit
January 8, 2012, 08:17 PM
Amazing also that so many people who don't use FCDs find it necessary to bash on those who do. Not exactly THR.


That goes both ways, I believe.

Simply amazing that reloading accurate handgun ammo was done for years before the advent of the FCD, simply amazing.

Thats a bash? Ah, OK!

bds
January 8, 2012, 08:35 PM
Let me repost ... :D
I really don't see any problem of using FCD for jacketed diameter bullets, especially if one wants to seat and taper crimp in separate steps.

However, some people who used the FCD for larger diameter lead bullets have reported having issues ... you can opt to knock out the carbide sizer ring so you can seat/taper crimp in separate steps without post-sizing the lead bullet.

... (Lee Precision) offer the service of enlarging the diameter and repolishing the carbide sizer ring for a nominal fee. This way you can use the FCD for lead bullets without worrying about post-sizing the bullet diameter and seat/taper crimp in separate steps.

beatledog7
January 8, 2012, 08:43 PM
Simply amazing that reloading accurate handgun ammo was done for years before the advent of the FCD, simply amazing.

Yes, a bash. It sounds cynical and condescending. And when you follow it up with...

[QUOTE]However it is good that its available for those that need it, and/or require it. For who knows whatever reason.

I guess![QUOTE]

...it strikes me as an assertion that those who use an FCD are somehow reloading challenged; they can't do it properly, so they use a crutch.

Like I said, not very THR.

jcwit
January 8, 2012, 09:02 PM
...it strikes me as an assertion that those who use an FCD are somehow reloading challenged; they can't do it properly, so they use a crutch.

Well I guess that is your opinion! Sorry if you took it that way! You seem to be reading meanings into my words. Did not mean to step on your toes. But if you require the use of the FCD, so be it.

EddieNFL
January 8, 2012, 09:15 PM
Not exactly THR.

I chuckle each time I read such comments.

beatledog7
January 8, 2012, 10:45 PM
Eddie, why is that? You laugh when someone declines to be dressed down?

918, you still insist on saying I "require" the FCD. That's what comes across as condescending.

I do not "require" it to make safe, accurate loads. I do sometimes find it useful for single step crimping and for getting the bulge out of .40 rounds. I have also found instances where it was of no use at all and even made something worse. That's life!

You strike me as being very good with your hands, mechanically inclined, as they say. So I bet you have lots of tools, many of which are no doubt designed to perform very specific tasks. But I would also bet that a lot of what you now do with a very specialized tool you used to accomplish--and still could--without that special tool.

Am I right? If I am, would you take kindly to someone who finds it "amazing" that people have for decades been able to perform the task without the special tool you have but guess it's alright if you "require" it?

john wall
January 8, 2012, 11:32 PM
When ammo MUST chamber, using today's price point brass and bullets, I depend on the FCD.

Flintknapper
January 9, 2012, 12:06 AM
Walkalong wrote:



Sure you are not talking about the FCD for rifles, which uses a collet, and is an innovative way to crimp rifle rounds?

The FCD for pistols, as being discussed, is totally different.

Yes, for rifle. I was unaware of the difference for the pistol FCD.

As such...I am forced to retract my statements as they do not apply to pistol cartridges. Learned something here tonight. :o

Thank you for clarifying, I didn't know.

Flint.

psyshack
January 9, 2012, 01:08 AM
I've been loading a fair amount of 10mm as of late. 155, 180 and 200gn XTP's. In new Starline and Winchester Brass. I also use a FCD in all my Lee Classic Turret's.

I do my bullet seat and crimp in the standard die. FCD is the check die. I have found the bump going in and out of the FCD is a tad harder with the Winchester brass. I've found the Winchester brass is a tad thicker and seems to also be a tad harder.

Of note using 10.6gn of BD under the 180 XTP's and firing the rounds out of the same Lone Wolf barrel the Starline brass dents on ejection. Where as the Winchester stays nice and clean. Neither dent or otherwise mess up the bullet jacket when inspected.

As for final check concerning gauge or barrel chamber/cylinder. I ALWAYS use the firearm in question as the final check when it comes to chambering and fit. I'm loading for the weapons in question. Not a default gauge.

res7s
January 9, 2012, 04:53 AM
these guys seem to like them. http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=295257

Walkalong
January 9, 2012, 07:38 AM
The FCD can not make bullets fatter. You need a new sizer for your lubrisizer. Are you sure it is what you think, as in .452? Perhaps it is marked wrong.

USSR
January 9, 2012, 08:06 AM
If you want ammo to chamber and fire EVERY TIME, use it.

When ammo MUST chamber, using today's price point brass and bullets, I depend on the FCD.

Geez, and I (and many others) depend upon experience and common sense. As I said before, what on earth did we EVER do, before Lee made the FCD?

Don

steve4102
January 9, 2012, 10:27 AM
This thread took on a life of its own, thanks everyone for you input.

Hey Rob, back to your original issue if I may.
I load for the 10mm, 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and I use the LFCD. As your original post was about the 10MM with jacketed bullets I will stick with them.

My 10MM/40 S&W LFCD did the stick and click thing with XTP's and other jacketed bullets more so than with my other calibers. IMO this is due to the 10MM brass being a little thicker than other brass. I ran several accuracy tests with the LFCD vs Crimping with the seating die. I found no difference in accuracy with several different brands of bullets and brass in both of my 10mm pistols. Use it if you want to seat and crimp in different steps, it won't hurt a thing, it may even help.

If you do not like the post sizing ring and it's "stick and click" don't through the die away or waist money on a new tapper crimp die. Take a punch and drive out the carbide ring and "presto", a regular tapper crimp die free of charge.

Seedtick
January 9, 2012, 06:02 PM
showmebob said:
I have heard of people knocking out the carbide insert and using the die only as a crimp die without the resizing effect.

bds said:
you can opt to knock out the carbide sizer ring so you can seat/taper crimp in separate steps without post-sizing the lead bullet.

steve4102 said:
If you do not like the post sizing ring and it's "stick and click" don't through the die away or waist money on a new tapper crimp die. Take a punch and drive out the carbide ring and "presto", a regular tapper crimp die free of charge.


Yep, that's what I did to my 45 acp FCD. And let me tell you there ain't a whole lot to get a bite on with a punch in a 45 acp die. :banghead: I finally took a dremel cutoff wheel and cut about an 1/8" off of the mouth of the die. Then I stuck a screwdriver in the cut and one little twist and out popped that thin carbide ring.

Now I have a separate crimp die to use if I so choose and I don't have to worry about it sizing down my lead bullets that Brad has so carefully sized. I haven't had any trouble with the FCD in any other calibers I load for. YMMV

Seedtick

:)

cfullgraf
January 9, 2012, 06:24 PM
Yep, that's what I did to my 45 acp FCD. And let me tell you there ain't a whole lot to get a bite on with a punch in a 45 acp die. :banghead: I finally took a dremel cutoff wheel and cut about an 1/8" off of the mouth of the die. Then I stuck a screwdriver in the cut and one little twist and out popped that thin carbide ring.



Maybe that is what the Lee handgun FCD should have been all the while.

EddieNFL
January 9, 2012, 06:47 PM
Maybe that is what the Lee handgun FCD should have been all the while.
...and we're back to a standard crimp die.

One thing we Americans are really good at...reinventing the wheel. :evil:

jcwit
January 9, 2012, 06:57 PM
I got one in the works right now, so far its almost round. This may open a whole new world in transportation.

EddieNFL
January 9, 2012, 08:30 PM
I would try to make it rounder. That will decrease drag and friction.

bds
January 11, 2012, 01:59 AM
Although this pertains to moly coated lead bullets, the information may shed some light on the FCD discussion.

This is from Precision Bullets FAQ page (http://www.precisionbullets.com/) (scroll down to Reloading Tips and Troubleshooting):

Do not use a roll crimp or Lee Factory Taper Crimp Dies.
The roll crimp will cut through the coating. You must use a taper crimp die.
The Lee Factory Taper Crimp Die will undersize the bullets causing accuracy and fouling problems.

If you are using the Lee Factory Taper Crimp Die, try switching to a standard taper crimp die ... Slug your bore, oversized bores will foul heavily and be inaccurate.

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