Small pistol magnum primers in a 9MM?


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TwoEyedJack
January 6, 2012, 11:28 AM
I was reloading 9MM last night and ran out of small pistol primers. I have a thousand small pistol magnum primers from CCI, no. 550.

Has anyone tried using magnum primers in a 9MM? This load features 5.0 gr. Bullseye under a 115 gr. Winchester JHP (5.1 gr. is listed as max in my Hornday manual). The firearm in question is a Ruger P89, which I don't think you could blow up if you wanted to. Would it be safe to use magnum primers in this load?

Thanks!

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Walkalong
January 6, 2012, 11:31 AM
They are safe to use if you start over from scratch and work up your load. I would stop a tenth or two from max, or sooner, if the recoil, velocity, or brass ejection seemed to be too much.

NCsmitty
January 6, 2012, 01:03 PM
www.alliantpowder.com lists 4.7gr of Bullseye as a maximum charge for the 9mm using a Speer 115gr GDHP.
I would move back to at least the Alliant listed max, if you use the magnum primers.


NCsmitty

gamestalker
January 6, 2012, 01:05 PM
I'm with Walkalong on this, work back up and watch for pressure signs. I don't know what the F.P. spring tension is like on those P89's, but I think the primer cup is slightly thicker on the CCI-550's, but maybe not?

TwoEyedJack
January 6, 2012, 01:26 PM
Smitty, I have noticed that the Alliant data shows lower maximums. I have been shooting this load since about 1989 (I got one for the first P89s) using the Hornady book. Thousands of rounds without even loose primer pockets. Some of my brass has been reloaded 6 or 7 times. Makes you wonder if Alliant is publishing CYA recipes instead of safe maximums.

Anyway, I think I will dial the load back a half a grain and check for pressure. Or maybe not mess with it and use the mag primers in my .357 M66, which only gets mid-range loads anyway and is no where near max.

beatledog7
January 6, 2012, 01:50 PM
Everybody publishes CYA figures. Do not use this toaster while bathing.

evan price
January 6, 2012, 02:01 PM
Eh, drop your powder by a tenth or two and you'll be fine. 9mm +P is 10% over anyway. I never had a problem with Mag primers in anything.

helotaxi
January 6, 2012, 02:18 PM
Smitty, I have noticed that the Alliant data shows lower maximums.Alliant shows data for a bullet of different construction. The Gold Dot is technically a plated bullet and the copper vs. gilding metal jacket, not to mention a different seating depth can easily account for pressure differences between the Alliant and Hornady data.

NCsmitty
January 6, 2012, 07:49 PM
Anyway, I think I will dial the load back a half a grain and check for pressure.

I don't have a problem using magnum primers in place of standard primers in anything, but the rule of thumb is to back off maybe 5% if you're using max loads with standard primers just to start, that's why I recommended the Alliant max load. Likely you can move back towards your original charge if it shoots ok.
We try to encourage a safe approach for the benefit of all, because you never know.


NCsmitty

Damon555
January 6, 2012, 08:45 PM
That's all I use in my small pistol loads....but I've worked the loads up with them also. Drop it down a little and you'll be fine.

d'Artagnan
January 6, 2012, 09:16 PM
When using Winchester brass, primers, Rem 115gr JHP, and Unique powder, I had to reduce the load from 5.8 grains to 4.8 grains (approx. 17%) to get the same muzzle velocity when changing from standard WSP to magnum WSP.

ArchAngelCD
January 7, 2012, 03:19 AM
Even though magnum primers make only a small difference in pressures you should always rework your load when changing components. Like said above, drop back and work up your load again. If you have a Chrono check your current velocity and stop adding powder to the new load when you achieve the same velocity.

BeerSleeper
January 7, 2012, 08:29 AM
Are there any published load books out there that give data using magnum primers, for applications where one doesn't traditionally use magnum primers? I wouldn't mind using almost 20% less powder to get the same velocity (especially when magnum primers are often the same price or cheaper), but I like to work within the ranges defined by one or more reputable, published load books.

beatledog7
January 7, 2012, 09:11 AM
You don't typically find published load data using magnum primers in non-magnum cartridges. Can't fault the manufacturers and publishers for their desire to avoid law suits.

helotaxi
January 7, 2012, 09:53 AM
You don't typically see load data using magnum primers in applications where they are not needed because they can lead to premature high pressures before velocity gets up to where it could be with a normal primer. This is true even in magnum cartridges depending on powder (2400 comes to mind).

918v
January 7, 2012, 02:34 PM
If you blow up your 9mm sue to magnum primers, your load is way past the safe limit to begin with, or you are using Clays under a 147gr bullet.

jcwit
January 7, 2012, 02:45 PM
The firearm in question is a Ruger P89, which I don't think you could blow up if you wanted to.

Do you REALLY believe this?

Why are you loading to the max or even over it? Does the target care?

ArchAngelCD
January 9, 2012, 02:13 AM
I wouldn't mind using almost 20% less powder to get the same velocity (especially when magnum primers are often the same price or cheaper), but I like to work within the ranges defined by one or more reputable, published load books.
There's no way you will save 20% of your powder with a magnum primer. You will be lucky to use 2% less and that's on a good day! Really...

Walkalong
January 9, 2012, 07:41 AM
Agreed.

BeerSleeper
January 10, 2012, 07:08 AM
There's no way you will save 20% of your powder with a magnum primer. You will be lucky to use 2% less and that's on a good day! Really...
I haven't tested, so I don't know.

Post 11 reported achieving the same velocity with 4.8 gr vs 5.8 (17% less). I called it 20 for a round figure...

Walkalong
January 10, 2012, 07:19 AM
Assuming the same bullet and same OAL, I find it hard to believe that a mag small pistol primer gave the same velocity with 4.8 Grs of powder vs 5.8 Grs of the same powder using a standard primer.

Perhaps some tests are in order.

MtnCreek
January 10, 2012, 09:01 AM
Last shooting over a chrony I did w/ WSP & WSPM in 9mm showed about +20fps or so using same charge of HS6. I didn't see much velocity difference, but I guess other, faster powders could react differently.

ArchAngelCD
January 10, 2012, 11:20 AM
Assuming the same bullet and same OAL, I find it hard to believe that a mag small pistol primer gave the same velocity with 4.8 Grs of powder vs 5.8 Grs of the same powder using a standard primer.

Perhaps some tests are in order.
Ain't that the truth...

I have a VERY strong feeling that if using a magnum primer would save 20%+ on powder there would be a lot of reloaders using magnum primers considering they cost no more than standard primers. I know a lot of reloaders and most are "frugal" and would jump at the chance of dropping the reloading costs by 20%... That is one of the reasons I highly doubt it's possible. (and my own tests with a chrono)

RandyP
January 10, 2012, 04:03 PM
When in doubt I find I rarely go too far astray by following the directions - lol - all of my load data for my four calibers was developed using standard small and large pistol primers, so that is all I ever use. Unless there were some zombie attack emergency situation that required using magnum primers, I would try to trade them to a fellow reloader who could use them.

TwoEyedJack
January 10, 2012, 05:06 PM
Do you REALLY believe this?

Why are you loading to the max or even over it? Does the target care?
When the P89 came out, there was an article published in either Guns and Ammo or Shooting Times, where they subjected this gun to some pretty strenuous testing. The first was that they threaded the barrel and installed a stainless steel plug within 1/10" of the nose of a NATO proof round. The gun was fired remotely. It blew out the extractor. After replacing the extractor, they put in a new barrel and fired 5,000 rounds through it without incident. The next test was to mill away all the slide material under the ejection port. The gun was fired 5,000 rounds without incident. It is definitely an over built 9MM.

I never really saw any utility in down loads for a cartridge that is pretty weak to begin with. Still don't.

Clark
January 10, 2012, 06:00 PM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have worked up 9mm to the threshold of case failure, and that takes an extra 4.5 to 6 grains of powder.
If I work up with a magnum primer, the threshold of failure is ~ .7 gr less.
The magnum primer raises the pressure like .7 gr of powder, but does not raise the velocity like .7 gr.
The threshold of intolerable recoil is 2 to 4 extra grains of powder.
The practical limit of 9mm is the recoil, not the pressure.

The magnum primers have a thicker cup, and take a little harder strike to set off, but most any 9mm is up to it.

What does it all mean?
Using magnum primers in 9mm will not do you any good, and likely cause no harm, and you will likely not notice a difference.

d'Artagnan
January 10, 2012, 08:56 PM
Yes, you'all really should get out and do some tests. I don't waste your time with speculation and conjecture. I actually do tests. I communicate cold, hard facts. My experience is that a 1/6th reduction in load was needed to remain at the same muzzle velocity with the only difference being Winchester small pistol magnum primers vice Winchester small pistol standard primers. Please post your test results so we can all share in that knowledge.

rori
January 10, 2012, 09:40 PM
When to Obama induced component shortage reared its ugly head I ran out of standard primers for everything!!!!! Had several thousand magnum primers so I switched to those and reduced my loads just a scoch. Works fine and I didn't see any difference in accuracy or pressure signs. FRJ

Walkalong
January 10, 2012, 09:47 PM
Please post your test results so we can all share in that knowledge.
What bullet type? What powder? What barrel length? Wanna get it right.

I do not have any small pistol magnum primers, but I can do it with small rifle primers vs small pistol primers. I suggest someone else does it as well.

I'll betcha a cold drink 4.8 and a small rifle primer vs 5.8 and a small pistol primer will give significantly different velocities.

d'Artagnan
January 10, 2012, 10:26 PM
Winchester brass, primers, Rem 115gr JHP, and Unique powder. Overall length 1.125", Browning High-Power.

Damon555
January 10, 2012, 11:02 PM
I'd like a reference as to what the actual difference is between standard and magnum primers. Does the primer actually produce a stronger ignition pulse or is the cup material just stronger? All I've ever gotten is internet hearsay....never any real facts.

If there really is a difference why not just use magnum primers for every load and not worry about keeping both types on hand? In the end all they do is ignite the powder charge anyway.

BeerSleeper
January 11, 2012, 04:28 AM
Judging from reported observations of swapping from one to the other, I think it is reasonable to say magnum primers have different ignition characteristics.

Walkalong
January 11, 2012, 07:24 AM
I'd like a reference as to what the actual difference is between standard and magnum primers. Does the primer actually produce a stronger ignition pulse or is the cup material just stronger? They have more priming compound, or perhaps even a different composition, but either way, they are stronger with more "fire" to help ignite larger amounts of powder or harder to ignite powders.

Damon555
January 11, 2012, 11:23 AM
They have more priming compound, or perhaps even a different composition, but either way, they are stronger with more "fire" to help ignite larger amounts of powder or harder to ignite powders.
Walkalong can you direct me to your source? I'm really interested in reading the manufacturers data about the differing characteristics.

I have no doubts that there is a difference......I'm just curious as to how they work.

Walkalong
January 11, 2012, 11:56 AM
I have no source, other than books/articles I have read over the years. Going from memory.

Google etc may find something.

RandyP
January 11, 2012, 12:55 PM
Per CCI their magnum primers burn hotter and longer than their standard primers -

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=29

I am more than willing to take their word for it without them furnishing any test results.

Damon555
January 11, 2012, 01:36 PM
Per CCI their magnum primers burn hotter and longer than their standard primers -

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=29

I am more than willing to take their word for it without them furnishing any test results.
Thanks RandyP....That's exactly what I was looking for.

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