Powder Recommendations for 38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP?


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Waywatcher
January 6, 2012, 03:30 PM
I am looking especially for first hand experience others have had with this combination. I am considering loading 38 Special +P with 158 lead semi-wadcutter hollow points, trying to mimmick or duplicate the FBI load using a Speer 158 LSWCHP.

I have tried Unique and Bullseye and they were way too dirty. I also have tried Trail Boss, but it was too weak to get it into 800+fps that I want (from a 4" tube.) I do like Trail Boss quite a bit, it seems very cool and clean burning. (Is this partially because of the fact that it is a single based powder?)

I am considering trying SR4756, a single based flake powder that, in my research, appears "fluffy." (I don't own any yet.) I am reluctant to try any more Alliant double based flake powders, such as Power Pistol, due to my experiences. These will be fired in a .357 Magnum GP100, for what it's worth.

Any advice?

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CZ57
January 6, 2012, 03:55 PM
checkout www.ramshot.com and look at the data for Silhouette and True Blue. Both will meter exceptionally and Silhouette is treated for flash. True Blue is a very fine ball powder that meters as well as any powder can. ;)

sellersm
January 6, 2012, 04:08 PM
Take a look at these:


http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/91534-duplicating-buffalo-bore-fbi-load.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/210674-duplicate-fbi-load.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/157693-anyone-duplicate-buffalo-bore-38spl-p-158lswchp.html

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=78026

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/125541-four-high-performance-38-special-handloads.html

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/114422-buffalo-bore-38-special-p-158grain.html

http://rugerforum.net/reloading/22449-trying-duplicate-buffalo-bore-38-spl-p-158-gr-lswchp-gc.html

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-400822.html

Galil5.56
January 6, 2012, 04:09 PM
My "FBI" load uses Speer 158 grain LSWC-HP and max Alliant Power Pistol data. I'm getting 927 fps from a 3" Model 60, with nice accuracy, clean, and excellent bullet expansion. Even using circa 1994 Hodgdon max +P data (7.3 grains) for HS-6 and a 158 grain lead bullet, it falls 60 fps short of the PP load, and nowhere near as clean... Just another load in my experience where Power Pistol excels, and the more I use it, the more I like it for a lot of pistol calibers.

rcmodel
January 6, 2012, 04:14 PM
and they were way too dirty.How can you tell?

If you are shooting cast lead bullets, the dirty part is caused by the bullet lube blowing & burning off, and sticking to everything that gets in it's way.

Different powder isn't going to fix that.

rc

MrBorland
January 6, 2012, 04:18 PM
Before switching to plated bullets, I loaded 158gr LRN over 3.5gr Clay's. From my 4" 686, they chrono'd at 816 - 820 fps, IIRC. I know others who use Solo1000. Both powders are about as clean as you'll get shooting lead.

Waywatcher
January 6, 2012, 07:23 PM
How can you tell?

If you are shooting cast lead bullets, the dirty part is caused by the bullet lube blowing & burning off, and sticking to everything that gets in it's way.

Different powder isn't going to fix that.

rc


Because I was there?

They were not cast, they were Speer LSWCHP as I mentioned in my OP.

And different powder did fix that.

Thanks.

Steve C
January 6, 2012, 07:32 PM
The 2 +P loads I use is 4.5 to 4.7grs of W231 or 5.0 to 5.2grs of Unique with the Speer 158gr LSWCHP with Winchester primers in a Winchester case. Both loads do around 900 fps + chrono'd average out of various 4" revolvers.

3.8grs of Tightgroup averaged 877 fps from my S&W 67 4".

336A
January 6, 2012, 07:37 PM
I like 5.4gr of Unique, this is a solid performer and it's been a standard for years. As rc model said shooting lead bullets is going to be dirty regardless of the powder used due to the lube.
Here is some good reading with a lot of info http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/144598-some-38-special-chronograph-tests.html

ArchAngelCD
January 7, 2012, 03:29 AM
I got outstanding success using HS-6 in my FBI replica loads. That powder will deliver all the velocity you are looking for while keeping the pressures lower than most other powders in it's burn rate range. HS-6 doesn't create excessive flash like Power Pistol does either. Accuracy is very good too in all my revolvers... My data is in the post on the second link listed above to the S&W site.

mavracer
January 7, 2012, 06:20 AM
I use ww231/HP38 for my FBI duplicate load. however I have used Unique I always find it amusing when somebody talks about how dirty Unique is Sure it may leave a little more soot on the gun than the so called clean powders do, but it wipes right off. I mean if you find a powder that burns pretty clean are you gonna leave the gun just a little dirty?

Jim Watson
January 7, 2012, 07:28 AM
I loaded a lot of .38s with 158 gr cast SWC or RN and 4.6 gr W231.
Velocity ran from 820 to a blazing 942 fps depending on gun (all 4" though), bullet brand, powder lot, and temperature.

I now settle for 4.3 which goes 800 fps +/-.

plateshooter
January 7, 2012, 04:17 PM
I use 4gr of Red Dot with 158gr SWC. Been using that load since the late 60s.

GrayDog
January 7, 2012, 06:25 PM
Here's some data from last summer with those Speer bullets, six inch barrel:

A#5 6.3 WSP primers 7/3/11

lo 909
hi 944
av 929
sd 12.7

True Blue 5.6 WSP primers 8/13/11

lo 822
hi 881
av 857
sd 20.0

The A#5 load is from the Speer manual which shows 6.2-6.6.
The True Blue load is the max from the Ramshot manual, but they don't show any +P loads for lead bullets.

I'm happy with the A#5 load so I stopped experimenting with this. If I needed to use another powder I'd try any of the load data recommended in the Speer manual. It's the only manual I have that lets me expect to see something close to the published velocities.

Walkalong
January 7, 2012, 08:27 PM
AA #5 will do what you want.

joed
January 8, 2012, 04:22 PM
I hate Unique with a passion even though it was my powder of choice for 20 years. I would try either Universal or Power Pistol, they give excellent velocity and are cleaner burning.

About 5 years ago I had enough of Unique, powder measures seem to have trouble with it. I tried the 2 powders above and was very happy with both. I'm still trying to decide between the 2 of them. Universal is pretty much like Unique. Power Pistol gives some really good velocity in cartridges like .38 Spl, .44 Spl and .45 acp. I use it exclusively in .38 Spl and 9mm at present.

Waywatcher
January 11, 2012, 03:58 PM
Power pistol, combined with Rim Rock's 158 LSWCHPGC might just be my ticket!

Looks like it would be a good powder for 135 GDHP in mild .357 as well.

ArchAngelCD
January 12, 2012, 01:18 AM
Power pistol, combined with Rim Rock's 158 LSWCHPGC might just be my ticket!

Looks like it would be a good powder for 135 GDHP in mild .357 as well.
Power Pistol will probably do what you want EXCEPT you will have to deal with the excessive flash and the additional report generated by Power Pistol. Since there are several other powders like HS-6, Longshot, AA#5, True Blue and a few other that will do just as well I refuse to deal with the shortcomings of Power Pistol.

As for a 135gr mild .357 Magnum load, I have made good 135gr Speer SB replica loads. I found Power Pistol to work very well replicating the Speer magnum load. Using a 135gr GDHP ot 140gr XTP bullet a charge of 8.8gr Power Pistol delivered right around 995 fps from a 2" barrel. I stopped using it because the flash was unacceptable especially in low light conditions. I was able to get the same results using HS-6 without the excessive flash. To replicate the 135gr Speer SB .38 Special +P ammo I use AA#5.

zxcvbob
January 12, 2012, 01:27 AM
I load them with 4.5 grains of either American Select or Rex-3 (Rex-3 is a defunct powder equivalent to Universal Clays, but I haven't actually tried Universal yet) This should give 950+ fps from a 4" revolver.

You can go a little faster than that with enough Unique or Herco or AA#5 or True Blue. (anything slower will be too flashy)

Galil5.56
January 12, 2012, 06:09 AM
Power pistol, combined with Rim Rock's 158 LSWCHPGC might just be my ticket!

Looks like it would be a good powder for 135 GDHP in mild .357 as well.

Sounds real good, and can EASILY do the 800+ fps what you originally spec'd it to do from a 4" revolver... I'd fully expect very close to 1000 fps at max Alliant data in many 4" revolvers Nice choice for the 135's too.

Cop Bob
January 12, 2012, 12:07 PM
I LOVE 4756 and I load a LOT of it, I have been for over 40 years.. it is a GREAT PERFORMER in 38-357 loads,, but it is not at all what I would recommend for bullet weights in excess of 125 grains.. it has a very radical pressure curve.. at 125 grains at 10 grains you may have it showing little pressure and the cases falling out of the cylinder and at 10.2 blowing primers and sticking cases like a madman.. I would go with another powder personally..

Also, it is the lead that is fooling you into thinking it is a dirty powder.. with jacketed bullets, 4756, and it's little sister 7625 is one of the cleanest powders I have ever used.. But they don't really like heavy bullets... unless you keep them below max..

Walkalong
January 12, 2012, 06:49 PM
4756 is very position sensitive in .38/.357 cases.

Waywatcher
January 12, 2012, 08:24 PM
My research mirrored Walkalong's assertion about SR4756; I'm not going to try that one.

AA#5 was also an interest; ArchAngelCD, would you mind posting your numbers?

I have noticed that Alliant 2400 is very flashy, and that AA#9 had almost zero flash. Flash isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me; it is entertaining!

ArchAngelCD
January 13, 2012, 03:48 AM
To replicate the 135gr Speer SB .38 Special +P ammo I use AA#5.
AA#5 was also an interest; ArchAngelCD, would you mind posting your numbers?
When trying to replicate Speer's 135gr Short Barrel .38 Special +P ammo achieving the velocity was fairly straight forward but getting the same "feel" of the recoil was another thing all together. After a lot of testing I found a charge of 6.8gr AA#5 under a 140gr Hornady XTP bullet made a very good replica for the factory Speer ammo and was as accurate or better than the factory load. Most importantly the replica felt the same as the factory ammo. What good is a replica load if it doesn't act just like the factory load you are replicating?

S&W M638 Airweight J frame.
Hornady 140gr XTP/HP (because they are cheaper than the Speer bullets and they are available)
6.8gr AA#5 = 839 fps AV
7.0gr AA#5 = 871 fps AV
The 135gr Speer .38 Special +P factory ammo is listed at 860 fps on their site.

htreinen
January 18, 2012, 10:27 AM
I too don't care for unique, really dirty in my guns. When the rush on components took place 3 years ago I had to switch to what was available. I have been using Hogdon Titegroup ever since. Uses very little powder and is not case position sensitive. I run the same +p load in all my 38's and 357's using a Hornady 158 lswchp. Hornady uses a dry lube so no bullet lube crap in my guns and the lead is swaged so it is soft enough to expand at low velocities. Seat it over the bullet body as it has no crimp grooves, like a wadcutter with a tip sticking out. Depending on the gun, I get 875 - 950 FPS. It is a great target load and works wonders on rabbits and other small game. I even used it last year to take a Javelina with a 4" 1957 Colt Official Police. I wanted a load to match what that gun used in 1957 and got damn close, sounds like you are on the same road. If you want to pick up a few more FPS I have also used HS6 for this load and get around 980 FPS out of a six inch 357.

Waywatcher
January 19, 2012, 09:29 AM
ArchAngelCD, I did a bunch more research and assume you are the same username on S&W forum?

At this point, I think I want to try HS-6 and AA #5; hopefully the local Scheel's has them both. Powder is cheap; a pound of it costs the same as a meager hundred Gold Dot bullets.

By chance, did you do any experimentation with 135 GD and HS-6, or was it best with AA #5?

Also, how is HS-6 (or AA#5 for that matter) for cleanness and leading in your guns(s)?

Peter M. Eick
January 21, 2012, 04:56 PM
You can easily do it with Unique, SR-4756, Power Pistol, Longshot and with a decent crimp 2400.

Waywatcher
January 21, 2012, 08:38 PM
I went to my local reloading component supply store (read: Scheel's), and they were out of HS-6. (I would have also needed to get magnum primers to get best performance with this powder anyway.) I did pick up a pound each of Accurate #5 and Power Pistol. I am looking forward to trying them both!

I also received my order of bullets from Midway, so I've got 1000 Speer LSWCHPs to play with. I will report back with results!

ArchAngelCD
January 22, 2012, 12:26 AM
ArchAngelCD, I did a bunch more research and assume you are the same username on S&W forum?

At this point, I think I want to try HS-6 and AA #5; hopefully the local Scheel's has them both. Powder is cheap; a pound of it costs the same as a meager hundred Gold Dot bullets.

By chance, did you do any experimentation with 135 GD and HS-6, or was it best with AA #5?

Also, how is HS-6 (or AA#5 for that matter) for cleanness and leading in your guns(s)?
Yes, I'm the same ArchAngelCD on both forums and a few more too.

Actually, I didn't try HS-6 to replicate the Speer 135gr load because a Speer Rep said I would probably get the best results using AA#5. When I got exactly what I was looking for with AA#5 I stopped right there and didn't do any further testing on that load. I always intend to do more testing but never seem to get to it... lol

I get no leading at all with HS-6 in my FBI replica loads.

4895
January 22, 2012, 12:52 AM
You will have better luck with MOLY coated bullets like BEAR CREEK and Win 231 powder. Very clean in my .38 and .44.

Waywatcher
January 22, 2012, 01:09 AM
I loaded up 20 rounds with each powder. Since I only own .357s and I didn't feel like messing around, I went just shy of the "max" .38 load with each.

6.5 grains AA#5
5.9 grains Power Pistol

both in Starline .38+P brass with CCI 500 primer and Speer LSWCHP

Power Pistol definitely gets the nod in the ease-of-use category. Its 5.9 grains takes up more physical space than 6.5 of AA#5 in the case decreasing the likelihood of a double charge. Both metered great. Accurate showed some static sticking issues; Power Pistol showed none. (My other powders that I use all the time show no static issues.)

Range Report to follow another day...

ArchAngelCD
January 22, 2012, 01:53 AM
Actually, Alliant lists a Max charge of 6.0gr Power Pistol under a 158gr LSWC bullet so if you're not happy with the accuracy you can bump the charge ever so slightly. Hey, you never know...

I see you didn't get a chance to try HS-6 in your FBI load. The data I have is over current published loads so I don't like to post it on the open forum but it's been estimated to be right around 19,800 psi, just under the 20,000 psi limits. My load form a 2" barrel averages 889 fps.

PM inbound...

Waywatcher
January 22, 2012, 01:36 PM
I was able to get out to the range today in the 20 degree (F) weather.

The Power Pistol load seemed to burn cleaner than the Accurate, which left more powder residue in the bore. Both loads seemed to lead to a mild/medium degree--it leaded up to a point and then didn't get much worse. The Power Pistol load seemed to lead less, and hit perfectly at point of aim at 10 yards. (Accurate was about an inch or two off.) I don't own a chronograph yet, but I would guess that the Power Pistol load is also going faster; it had a little more buck and roar.

I am going to pick the Power Pistol load until I can try HS-6. Thanks for the special info, ArchAngelCD!

ArchAngelCD
January 24, 2012, 12:43 AM
Both loads seemed to lead to a mild/medium degree--it leaded up to a point and then didn't get much worse.
I see you are using Speer bullets. Those are soft and swedged. I am using Hornady bullets. They are also soft but I think the lube they use is different. I didn't get leading with HS-6 and that load is hotter than the loads you are using.

chhodge69
January 24, 2012, 06:23 PM
I have been using Hogdon Titegroup ever since. Uses very little powder and is not case position sensitive. I run the same +p load in all my 38's and 357's using a Hornady 158 lswchp.

Htreinen would you mind sharing your Titegroup 38 special+P recipe?

Waywatcher
February 10, 2012, 07:02 PM
I have tried a few different combos now and wanted to report back with the results. I was super excited to try out my new chronograph and DAO SP101 with a 2.25" barrel...

.38 +P
Speer 158 LSWCHP
ArchAngelCD's HS-6 load with CCI 550
ES of 137, from 770s to lower 900s. Avg. about 840. Half were powder forward, half powder rearward. :( I launched a cylinder without any muzzle tipping and got an ES around 75. Not sure what's up.

5.9 grains Power Pistol with CCI 500. (Regular .38+P)
ES of 93, from 810s to lower 900s. Avg. about 855. Half were powder forward, half powder rearward. Better, but still not great. I launched a cylinder full without any muzzle tipping and got a ES of 13.

The trail boss load was around 715 avg. ES around 40, with a low of 699.

Walkalong
February 10, 2012, 07:52 PM
been using Hogdon Titegroup ever since. Uses very little powder and is not case position sensitive Actually, as far as velocities are concerned, it is about average in the "position sensitive" department. Test it with a chrono and see. :)

joneb
February 10, 2012, 11:00 PM
I started using AA#5 about 7yrs ago as a replacement for Unique for .45 acp. This stuff is the bee's knees for upper end accurate .45 acp.
I wanted a replacement for Unique and it is a good choice for warm loaded .45 acp.
Well when I tried AA#5 with 158gr LSWC for .38 spl. I was disappointed with partially burnt powder that tied up the action, the charge was 5.6gr
I found that a charge of 6.0-6.2gr of AA#5 with standard small pistol primers worked very well in my S&W 10-5
I would not recommend this powder to a new reloader for .38spl as W231/hp-38 is a better choice.

ArchAngelCD
February 11, 2012, 03:15 AM
I have tried a few different combos now and wanted to report back with the results. I was super excited to try out my new chronograph and DAO SP101 with a 2.25" barrel...

.38 +P
Speer 158 LSWCHP
ArchAngelCD's HS-6 load with CCI 550
ES of 137, from 770s to lower 900s. Avg. about 840. Half were powder forward, half powder rearward. :( I launched a cylinder without any muzzle tipping and got an ES around 75. Not sure what's up.

5.9 grains Power Pistol with CCI 500. (Regular .38+P)
ES of 93, from 810s to lower 900s. Avg. about 855. Half were powder forward, half powder rearward. Better, but still not great. I launched a cylinder full without any muzzle tipping and got a ES of 13.

The trail boss load was around 715 avg. ES around 40, with a low of 699.
I'm very surprised that you had so much trouble with that HS-6 load. Sorry it didn't work out for you. The only reloaders who had trouble with that load were using a standard primers but you use a magnum primer as recommended. Very strange...

Waywatcher
February 11, 2012, 10:44 AM
I think my next exploration is going to be recreating the .357 Speer Gold Dot Short barrel load. 135 grain GDHP SB at 990fps. Thinking Unique to start things off.

918v
February 11, 2012, 12:17 PM
4756 and PP are too slow for the 38. I think PB burns clean and doesnt smoke under Speer lead bullets, having shot a bunch of HBWC with 3.3 grains at about 800 FPS. I'm sure you can work up a load with your bullet that will make you happy. Also, PB is twice as bulky as Bullseye due to it's porous base, yet it meters the same.

Certaindeaf
February 11, 2012, 12:36 PM
4 grains Red Dot. Around 850 fps.

Walkalong
February 11, 2012, 08:22 PM
I think my next exploration is going to be recreating the .357 Speer Gold Dot Short barrel load. 135 grain GDHP SB at 990fps. Thinking Unique to start things off.Two folks here who have done it like AA #5.

Waywatcher
February 11, 2012, 09:59 PM
Speer doesn't list any data for it. Do you just work your way up to 990 fps from the .38 +P loading data while using magnum brass? Edit to add: Are you talking about the .38 +P 135 GD load at 860 fps?

The 135 GD/unique load (~6.9 +/- 0.1 grains) shot to POA at 7 yards but it was too close to dusk when I got to the range to chrono it.

joneb
February 11, 2012, 11:57 PM
I find it odd that AA#5 can work well for 38 spl. It was designed for 45 acp and very dense which seems to be a advantage for acp cartridges with limited case capacity, and one would think a disadvantage for a old low pressure cavernous cartridges such as the .38spl.

According to this info AA#5 is as dense as it gets;
http://www.tacticoolproducts.com/powder.pdf

As I stated above AA#5 can work in .38spl but I feel it should be considered a +P powder as standard 38spl loads can disappointing at lower pressure.

ArchAngelCD
February 12, 2012, 12:37 AM
The factory 135gr Speer Gold Dot .38 Special +P ammo is rated @860 fps from a 2" barrel. I gave gotten outstanding results duplication that load using AA#5. Actually it's the only load I still use AA#5 for. I'm able to generate the same velocity and felt recoil with less than a full charge of powder. I use 6.8gr AA#5 under that GD bullet or a 140gr Hornady XTP/HP bullet.

ljnowell
February 12, 2012, 12:47 AM
I load hornady 158gr LSWC -HP over Power pistol. I load them in 357 cases for my wifes 686 and also in 38 cases for my airweight.

joneb
February 12, 2012, 12:49 AM
CD, what primer are you using for this AA#5 load ?

ArchAngelCD
February 12, 2012, 12:53 AM
CD, what primer are you using for this AA#5 load ?
I'm using a CCI-500 standard SP primer.

I'm going to stress the feel of the recoil. It feels the same to me as the original so in my mind that makes a good replica load for practice.

joneb
February 12, 2012, 02:00 AM
Thanks,

During the great primer shortage of 2008 I found that either CCI 500 or WSP worked equally well.

I have found that in .357 mag. 8.2gr of AA#5 with a Raineer plated 140gr RNFP COL 1.585" taper crimped, shot extremely well in my 2.75" Ruger Sec. Six.

Walkalong
February 12, 2012, 09:10 AM
I have found that the CCI small pistol primer tends to give a little less velocity than the Winchester small pistol primer. Not a big deal, just adjust for it. I like the CCI in small cases like .32 ACP, .32 Long, etc. I am out of them right now, so I am using WSP, which I am perfectly happy with.

Waywatcher
February 12, 2012, 04:29 PM
Was able to get out to the range with my chrono and SP101 today!

I did some probing with powder choices in .38 +P with Speer's 135 GDHP.
6.8 AA#5 with CCI 550. Avg 837 with ES of 75.
6.4 Power Pistol with CCI 500. Avg 910, ES of 76.
7.0 HS-6 with Rem 1.5. Avg. 832, ES of 56. Acceptable ES, lower velocity than I hoped for. I will bump it up from 7.0 to 7.2 (max) and see if that gets me the 30 fps I'm hoping for.

Not really liking AA#5 in any of the .38 loads I've tried so far. I will give it another shot with std. primers and the max .38 load, both with 135 GD and 158 LHP.

HS-6 was disappointing with 158 lead, but shows the most promise with 135 Gold Dot. I used standard primers with the 135 but magnum with the lead. I might go back and try standard primers with lead.

Power Pistol definitely has more flash, bang and roar! Seems to have wide ESs all around though which is disappointing.

I tried a random load for fun that I think will make a great camping/hiking load in .357--180 XTP (hollow point) 12.0 grains 2400 with CCI 500 primer. Avg 972 with an ES of only 27! Subsonic with a heavy hollow point bullet that hits exactly at POA at 10 yards. :)

In closing, I haven't found a great FBI load duplicate yet...

joneb
February 12, 2012, 05:34 PM
Not really liking AA#5 in any of the .38 loads I've tried so far. I will give it another shot with std. primers and the max .38 load,

That's how I load AA#5, I get great results with WSP loaded to max. in 38spl.

ArchAngelCD
February 14, 2012, 12:46 AM
Waywatcher,
IMO you should have use both standard and magnum primers with HS-6 and those GD bullets. Trying only standard primers in a load that most sources recommend a magnum primer isn't a good test. It's probably why the velocities you got were lower than you thought they would be. Magnum primers aid in complete burning of HS-6.

Waywatcher
February 14, 2012, 09:03 AM
I might, but Speer data indicates standard primer with HS-6 load in this case. Given the massive ES with magnum primers and 158 lead (137fps), I'm not optimistic about the outcome of magnum primers with HS-6. In fact, I'm going to go back and try your HS-6/158 lead with a std primer to see if it calms the variation.

HS-6 with 135 Gold Dot (with CCI 500 gave an ES of 56fps) was the best of the 3 powders I tried so far. It definitely beats the pants off of AA#5 for ease of use.

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
February 14, 2012, 03:12 PM
Powder Recommendations for 38 Special +P 158 LSWCHP?
I am looking especially for first hand experience others have had with this combination. I am considering loading 38 Special +P with 158 lead semi-wadcutter hollow points, trying to mimmick or duplicate the FBI load using a Speer 158 LSWCHP...........
Any advice?

I load 4.6 grains 700X under homecast 158 grain SWC from Lee TL 6-cavity mold. I chrono'd this load at more than 1,000 fps (average) out of a GP100 6 inch barrel.

I ran out of 700X couple months ago so I loaded 3.8 grains Clays under the same bullet. Feels similar to the 700X load, but that is subjective and may not translate to similar muzzle velocity.

When my Clays' gone, I will go with 4.6 Titegroup and see what that will do.

Waywatcher
February 18, 2012, 05:45 PM
That's how I load AA#5, I get great results with WSP loaded to max. in 38spl.

AA #5 will do what you want.

Hooray! I got some decent results today loading AA#5 just like that. I think that the max load of AA#5 is the winner in the FBI load duplication! (6.6 with Speer LHP and CCI 500.) It gave an average of 828fps and an ES of 60 from my snubby, with no shots falling below 800.

Power Pistol is good too, and I would say it is definitely a close second.

HS-6 was a disappointment. ESs of over 100, even over 120, were the norm. Powder to the rear would be over 900, powder to the front would be in the 700s. Magnum primer and standard primer alike.

Waywatcher
February 12, 2013, 02:42 AM
Update, I have been loading and shooting a bunch of Rim Rock 158 LHP over Power Pistol. It gives very good ES and averages. It might be more accurately described as a Buffalo Bore duplication. I find the buck and roar of power pistol to be a virtue, but that's just me. :D

In a 4" M15 the borderline +P (listed as the starting .38 +P load) gave an impressive 960 fps avg.
In a 5" M27 it gave 920 fps.
In a friend's 4.2" GP100 it gave 900 fps.

I think the 5.4 load is a safe, yet powerful and controllable load. I am going to try 5.0 just to see what it does.

ArchAngelCD
February 12, 2013, 03:06 AM
I'm not telling you not to use Power Pistol but shooting HS-6 with a standard primer instead of a magnum primer is not a fair test. I know most current manuals don't specify using a magnum primer with HS-6 in a .38 Special but they don't recommend using a magnum primer with any powders in the .38 Special. In turn they use magnum primers with every powder when loading something with magnum in it's name like the .357 Magnum. Why use a standard primer with HS-6 in the 38 and a magnum primer with HS-6 in the 357?

Unfortunately current manuals don't do the right thing. Look back into the older Speer manuals and you will see they use a magnum primer with HS-5, HS-6 and HS-7.

Waywatcher
February 12, 2013, 03:16 AM
I tried HS-6 with both magnum and standard primers. Neither one was impressive for 158 LHP loads. Huge extreme spreads, dirty.

Power Pistol gets more velocity, is cleaner and doesn't require a magnum primer. My magnum powder is 2400 so I stock up only on standard primers. But honestly, if there was a performance improvement to be had by using HS-6 I would deal with another type of primer.

murf
February 12, 2013, 04:26 AM
waywatcher,

what type of crimp are you using, and how light or heavy?

murf

Waywatcher
February 12, 2013, 08:07 AM
Using Walkalong's pictures as a guide, my roll crimps are probably medium, or medium-heavy.

See Walkalong's pictures in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=469815&page=5

ArchAngelCD
February 12, 2013, 11:42 PM
I tried HS-6 with both magnum and standard primers. Neither one was impressive for 158 LHP loads. Huge extreme spreads, dirty.

Power Pistol gets more velocity, is cleaner and doesn't require a magnum primer. My magnum powder is 2400 so I stock up only on standard primers. But honestly, if there was a performance improvement to be had by using HS-6 I would deal with another type of primer.
HS-6 is another one of those powders which cleans up considerably when you approach the upper limits of the pressure range. Using a magnum primer shrinks the SD numbers to single digits most times. I'm surprised you didn't achieve good results with HS-6 but then again, all those powders wouldn't be on the market if everyone liked the same handful of powders...

Cheetos
February 13, 2013, 06:57 PM
I like Clays or Titegroup for .38 special.

ljnowell
February 13, 2013, 08:54 PM
Update, I have been loading and shooting a bunch of Rim Rock 158 LHP over Power Pistol. It gives very good ES and averages. It might be more accurately described as a Buffalo Bore duplication. I find the buck and roar of power pistol to be a virtue, but that's just me.

In a 4" M15 the borderline +P (listed as the starting .38 +P load) gave an impressive 960 fps avg.
In a 5" M27 it gave 920 fps.
In a friend's 4.2" GP100 it gave 900 fps.

I think the 5.4 load is a safe, yet powerful and controllable load. I am going to try 5.0 just to see what it does.

I've been loading 158gr SWCs and SWCHPs over 6gr of power pistol for quite awhile. Its definately a stout load.

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