[CampX]

I asked this question along with another one in the Rifle Forum, but wanted to see how many people have had experience or insight on the Norinco 1911A1 45 ACP.
I realize it is quite inexpensive compared to the any of the other 45's, even the base model Colts, etc., so if the fit and finish is a bit 'lesser', it would make sense. I don't really care how it looks, as long as it functions reliably and shoots reasonably accurate. It isn't going to be for self-defense, and my life won't depend on it feeding and firing 100 percent (although it sure would be nice if it does!!!)
I have read in other Forums, on other sites, that it is a good base to build a gun on....but if you buy one brand new for $425, and then have to dump another $500 into it to make it 'racier', one might be better off in the first place spending the extra money and getting a more expensive gun in the first place. Insights...

[megatronrules]

Hi there. A friend of mine has a Norinco 1911. It is a good gun for the money. When he got it we changed out the recoil spring, and bought 2 7round Wilson mags. At $28 each they are the best there is for 1911 mags. I think so anyway. The Norinco's arent as nicely finished as the Colt's but they are damn nice if all you want is a shooter/self defense 1911. The metal is of good quality from what I understand. It eats everything we fire through it. FMJ and HP's. You can do a lot worse in a 1911. Also $425 is a bit too much IMO for a Norinco since they havent imported them in a while. 1995???
At any rate I see them around for $300-350, if you look around a bit. Or find a reasonable seller. Some people seem to think that their used gun is worth more than a new one:D All kidding aside they are good guns.
A lot of 1911 problems come from 3 things. Bad/CHEAP mags."Home Gunsmiths" Or trying to ram a fancy HP into a chamber meant to feed FMJ ammo. Not all 1911's need to be worked on to be reliable. This is a myth. I have Glocks and if i put a $15 17round PRO-MAG in it, guess what? It jams. With factory Glock mags there is never a jam or a problem. I own S&W's Colt's as well. All guns have bad examples. Get one for less if you can. Get good mags and you should be fine. Also Norinco's are used as base guns for build ups quite a bit. This tells me they are made of good metals. No reputable gunsmith would build on a gun made of cheap metals. Hope this helps. Good Luck.

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello.

Several months ago, I got a like-new Norinco 1911 at the upper end of what I would pay, but I've not regretted that purchase. In an earlier post,elsewhere, I described the things I did with the pistol. After finally getting the fixed sights regulated, I took the pistol out today for a check and to move the fixed sights if necessary.

The Pistol: This pistol came stock. Nothing's been done in terms of accuracy, but it does have some add-ons that I did myself.

Kimber blk rubber stocks
Colt hardchromed grip screws
Stainless Colt thumb safety
Chip McCormick trigger
Ed Brown sear and hammer
Flat, 20LPI-checkered, M/S housing
Wolff 18.5lb conventional recoil spring
Wilson Shock Buff in place
Colt E-nickled magazine release
Colt E-nickled slide stop lever
Wilson "drop in" Grip Safety (It did!)
Skateboard Tape on front grip strap

Gunsmith, Scott Mays, added the fixed sights. The rear sight is a King's hardballer and I flat don't remember what the front sight he silver-soldered on is! He then applied a matte finish to the top of the slide and polished the flats before bluing.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid35/p75c87b9768f1482f507c2445d9f54255/fd2f81d3.jpg

Ammunition: Today, the pistol was fired with the following rounds and an 8-round Wilson magazine was used:

Winchester USA 230 gr FMJ
Federal 230 gr Classic JHP
Corbon 200 gr +P JHP (Old, pre-Gold Dot bullet)
Handload:
200 gr Rucker CSWC
5.0 gr Bullseye
WLP primer
Starline Cases
LOA: 1.27"

For what it's worth, which ain't much, it'd rained up here today. Just for grins I fired a round of each JHP into some mud and pulled out the expanded bullets to see. Not a scientific test a tall and likely meaningless, but interesting, at least.

The bullet, round on the left is Corbon, while the other's the Federal.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid35/p0104ebab6a519f48ebf54916433f239c/fd2f81d4.jpg

Distances & Testing: Today, all firing was slow-fire with the 15 yard groups being fired standing, w/2-hand hold. No fifty-yard stuff today; I was running short of time and didn't care to trapse through the mud all that much. Also, twenty-five yard groups were fired from seated with my arms rested on my range box and a coat rather than standing.

15 Yards:

Each of these 10-shot groups were fired with the handload described above. When I'd do my part, it did its.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid35/p0682759cbadaaf8c542e9cce719a73cf/fd2f81d1.jpg

It becomes clear that the sights need to move a bit to the left.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid35/p637d3e7bf03f9bfcd0972d5beaa7f93b/fd2f81d2.jpg
I wasn't shooting very well here.

At this point, I messed around with the fixed sights and moved to 25 yards. Again, these were fired from a rest and not freehand.

25 Yards: The group fired with the USA ball consisted of 6 shots, all that I had left and as the picture will show, I blew one of them! The handload's group was of 10 shots.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid35/p7e8e6f05ec1cb8413d3b5b582d88dd29/fd2f8191.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid35/p913d91be03e4864db0bc9fc6266b5d34/fd2f8193.jpg

So, the gun's "on" plenty good for me and for the uses I'll put it to.

Observations: I have continued to be pleased with this pistol's reliability. Roughly, 1200 rnds plus have been fired with zero malfunctions. Ejected cases are not dented or bent and ejection remains positive. The home trigger-job which was done on this pistol continues to remain true and crisp. Accuracy has been most surprisingly pleasant for a service grade pistol.

While my personally-owned and tested Norinco 1911s consists of but one, based on my experiences, I highly recommend these pistols for folks wanting a fun-to-shoot, reliable and pretty darned accurate forty-five. I suspect that many buy these as "base guns" for more refinement. This one's "refined" enough and will stay as it is.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid35/pe0f3aab371461b578dfa4963b9e524f0/fd2f81d0.jpg

Best.

PS: Since I originally posted this as a range report, I've changed the grip safety to an old Pachmayr "drop in" that fit a bit better than did the Wilson, though it worked just fine. I've fired around another 400 to 500 rnds of various bullet styles through the pistol and so far, zero malfunctions.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid49/p0a1940a9655e0b7ddb282d51ef404665/fcb66f5b.jpg

[tomkatz]

I bought one new in the mid 90s and it functioned perfectly. I'd say I put 2500 rounds through it with all kinds of ammo. It was totally stock except for mags. I should have kept it, if I find one for the right price someday it is on my list to buy......tom

[Kahr carrier]

I like the Osama targets.:D :neener:

[Jim V]

I have three of the pistols. The only problems I had with them have been magazine related. I have not had a failure to feed, fire and eject with Wilson, McCormick, Wolff, Randall or USGI magazines. I don't know how many rounds have been fired through the three.

I do think that $450 might be a tad high in price unless it was for one of the 800 or so chromed ones or one of the 500 - 600 Commander(tm) sized ones that were imported before the ban.

[10-Ring]

The 2 I've shot were quite nice & really good shooters. Both were Mil-Spec versions so they were probably going to see some modification. If you find the right price, it probably would be a good base.

[TooTaxed]

After a strong recommendation from a gunsmith to do so, about four or five years ago I picked up a Norinco NIB for about $300 at a gun show, with the intent of building it into a competition gun...and then promptly had to put it into storage in Indiana while I went overseas...haven't retrieved it yet.

A couple of years ago I returned to work in Kalifornia, and, wanting something to shoot, ran across an individual selling one in a Fresno gunshow...grabbed it quickly at $330! It was nearly new, stock except for a Clark trigger and rubber grips.

I took it to the range to see what it needed changed...and haven't changed a thing yet! That gun is extremely accurate, and has digested a wide range of loads and bullet types without a single failure. I handload, and have put probably 4,000 rounds through it.:D

I've owned and shot a large number of .45 models, and I fire the Norinco more than the others by far...even my Kimber and factory target model EAA Witness, both of which are a bit picky about some loads. If I really had to choose one to keep and not replace, it'd probably be the Norinco.

As to the price, due to Clinton these guns haven't been imported for years, and the price will increase. Parts are completely interchangeable with the original Colt A1. I haven't seen one for sale anywhere, even in Shotgun News, since I bought my last one.

[colima]

I've had good luck with mine, but by the time you pay for the usual add ons, you could have bought a Kimber! The Kimber probably won't shoot any better than the Norinco, but it will be better in the finish department.

[Jim K]

I have two Norincos. I have put around 8000 rounds through one and about 2500 through the other, mostly GI or GI spec, but some HPs also. I use only the Norinco mags or USGI mags.

I have had NO failures of any kind. That is zero. Zilch. Nada. Except for bluing wear on the slide rails, neither gun looks as if it had ever been fired.

NO modifications of any kind. Very tough guns. Amazing.

Jim

[colima]

Based on the experiences I've seen on this thread, its almost too bad I don't still have an original configuration Norinco. Mine I bought on Ebay while they still allowed gun sales. It was from an IPSC shooter in PA who had already installed a drop in beavertail and had a professional trigger job done. This Norinco still has the sweetest trigger of any of my 7 1911s. Since I bought that gun, I have installed Bomar sights - the original sights really are pretty awful. I also had a Schueman barrel fitted after trying one of the Wilson (Dwer?) group grippers to no avail. Its a pretty sweet in its current configuration. The blueing and finish are still easily the worst of any of my 1911s.

Its not that I regret the changes. I have big fleshy hands and I really need a beavertail to prevent hammer bite. The original barrel shot around 3-4" groups at 15 yds, and I now shoot 1-2" groups at the same range. (Yes, I know you can do better - but its a game of personal bests for me). The only reason its not my favorite shooting 1911 is that I installed an Optima on my Kimber Classic and these old eyes really like the dot.

[CampX]

Thanks for the info.......$425 is CANADIAN pricing for brand-new, unissued, outta the grease. That works out to around $300 or so greenbacks, I believe. I think I'm gonna be the proud new owner of a handgun; just trying my hardest to be a politically incorrect Canuck. Screw the government and their assinine gun laws....

[stans]

just trying my hardest to be a politically incorrect Canuck. Screw the government and their assinine gun laws

If everyone did this, gun control would go under. The government cannot arrest and imprison the whole population.

One serious problem with Norinco 1911's....not enough of them around here!!!! It has been a while since I have seen one at a shop or at a show.

[Jim V]

BTW, my everyday, keep this tubby person safe from harm carry pistol is one of my Norincos.

[Freedom in theSkies]

Here's my Norinco...
Bought it from Milarm a couple of years ago for 325.00 Cdn.

Put a few upgrades on it and I am way pleased with the results.:)

[helmmortgage@1scom.net]

I have a Norinco 1911A1 that I purchased new in the mid-1990's. Would it have a firing pin block safety? How would you tell? If not, can one be added by a gunsmith?

[helmmortgage@1scom.net]

What's the best shoulder holster for conceal carry of a 1911A1, 5 inch?

[yhtomit]

What's the supply for Americans? :)

Eventually I want to have a 1911A1 style pistol (well, more than one, but that's even more eventually ;)), and while there are some moderately priced ones that are of decent reputation, the price/performance ratio of the Norincos seems to be even better. (I'm thinking of the Kahr 1911, the RIA, and the slightly-more-expensive Taurus.)

So can Americans get a new Norinco, or only used stock that's been in the country for 30 years, or what? :)

timothy

[Daemon688]

We're outa luck for new Norinco 1911's :mad:

With all the good reviews I've read over the time here, I'm going to be on the lookout for one at the next gunshow. Either that or I'll be picking up a Saiga .308. Decisions, decisions.

[schmeky]

I've had 2 in the past, a blue and a nickeled version. Both were great guns for the money, sold them both to "move up to" better quality 1911's.

Several 1911's later, I bought another Norinco, modified it a little, and have it at someone's professional refinishing facility now.

Yes, you can spend the bucks on a ready made everything already done for you 1911, but for me, doing it a step at a time is half the fun.

Simply put, the Norinco is great value, but shoot it first before you modify it.

[FerFAL]

Here's my Norinco.
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/4779/norincovf5.jpg

FerFAL

[TooTaxed]

HELMMORTGAGE, the Norinco is pretty much an exact clone of the original Colt 1911A1, except for a rougher outside finish...completely interchangeable parts. If the original Colt had the block safety, the Norinco will have one.

Can't help you with your question about the shoulder holster. The best belt holster I've used has been the Fobus adjustable...by loosening the pivot screw you can adjust the holstered gun angle to everything from cross draw to right hip to small of the back...then tighten the screw. Very versatile and durable. The 1911 is rather large for an ankle holster, but I commonly carry my Makarov there.

It's gotten so that the only one of my 1911's I shoot is my Norinco. My Kimber and EAA custom shop guns are annoyingly picky about ammunition...the Norinco digests anything I put in it.

[schmeky]

FerFAL,

WOW. That's a beautiful Norinco. Is that a high polish blue on the slide?

[daysleeprx]

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o288/daysleeprx/DSCF0127.jpg

[kgriggs8@yahoo.com]

Here is the problem I have with Norincos, they are NOT as cheap as everyone says they are! I have never seen one sell for less than $400 and most go for $450-500. I have bought several SA 1911s for that kind of money and I find it hard to believe that a Norinco is as good as a SA 1911. For $500-600 you are in the used Colt range, see what I am getting at?

If you can find one for $250, snap it up, but those are more myth than truth I think. They sell for $400-500 which puts them smack dab in the "I will never pay that much for one" range. I have no doubt they are decent guns but for the money, I think they are a fool purchase.

Norincos are the kind of pistol that you pay top dollar for but then when you go to sell it, nobody wants it and you end up taking a huge loss. No thank you.

[AndyC]

Not any more, perhaps, but that's because 1. You can't import any more, so there's a limited supply and 2. word has gotten around (since the early 90's, actually) as to how good they really are, which adds demand to point 1 - which drives up the price.

Are they worth it? To me, yes - to you, perhaps not; it's all relative ;)

[brentn]

Yea the states prices are defenitly higher becuase of the ban, and like andy said the demand is high because people have realized how good they really are.

[daysleeprx]

If you can find one for $250, snap it up, but those are more myth than truth I think. They sell for $400-500 which puts them smack dab in the "I will never pay that much for one" range. I have no doubt they are decent guns but for the money, I think they are a fool purchase.

Norincos are the kind of pistol that you pay top dollar for but then when you go to sell it, nobody wants it and you end up taking a huge loss. No thank you.

I see contradictory statements here.

If they're selling for 400-500, then how are you taking a loss if the demand for them is such that the prices are going up? But hey, whatever floats your boat. More Norincos for me.

[schmeky]

Everyone has an opinion and I respect that. I think the perceived negative(s) about a Norinco is "made in China".

They can be found for around $350.00, still a bargain in the 1911 arena when pistols for the same money or more are cast instead of forged.

[kgriggs8@yahoo.com]

I would pay $350 for a nice one because that is about the same price as the RIA and I think the Norinco is a better gun. The RIA is not bad though.

"I see contradictory statements here.

If they're selling for 400-500, then how are you taking a loss if the demand for them is such that the prices are going up? But hey, whatever floats your boat. More Norincos for me."

It does seem contradictory, that is what pisses me off so much. There just seem to be certain guns that are hard to find and when you do, they are being sold at the high end of the scale. When you go to sell them, they always sell for the low end. It is just a gun that you can get burned on more than others.

[TooTaxed]

Sorry KGRIGGS8...but they ARE that good...which is the primary reason they are hard to find. I haven't seen one on the market for years, and I attend a lot of gun shows. I've owned Kimbers, SAs, Colts, and a custom shop EAA...most of which were picky on ammo, or fell short on accuracy or reliability. All are fine 230-gr hardball guns, but I like to shoot lighter SWC ammo. My Norincos beat 'em all...and for some reason, are unusually accurate out of the box. I value performance better than finish, which is where my Norincos fall short.:D

[kgriggs8@yahoo.com]

TooTaxed,
Are you saying that they are actually better then the Kimbers, SAs, Colts and custom guns? I have never owned one so I was not bashing the quality, just the value. If they are are better than Colts and Kimbers, I will have to give them a second look.

[AndyC]

"Better" is a matter of definition, but the steel of the Nork's is some of the strongest you'll ever find. They're not as finely fitted/tuned/finished as Colt, SA, etc - but they are one heck of a fine base gun from which to work ;)

Something I found on the 1911forum.com site:

There is nothing wrong with Norinco 1911's you can be sure of that. Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.

"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "

I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.

Take Care

[schmeky]

kgriggs,

I to have Colts, a super fine Kimber, and my Norinco. The Kimber is an incredibly well finished tack driver that has no peer in it's price range (IMHO). Love my Colts too, but the Norinco shoots very well and with extreme reliability.

I knew about the steel quality of the Norc before I bought it. It's a gun you can shoot a lot the rest of your life and pass it on. Norc's, to me, have a "heft" that is different from other 1911's, I think it's in the steel. They really are great guns in their price range ($350-$450).

[hawkeye1]

Norinco, good choice. You can't beat the price. I bought mine for $265, and could have sold a dozen of them before I left the gun show. Shoots great and never misses a beat. Not the fit and finish of my Para-Ordnance, but the price is right. I would not hesitate to buy a couple more if they came my way.

[Essex County]

Bought a used one last year in a gunshop for $ 180. Very close to new condition and more reliable than my new Kimber. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles, but it hasn't needed repair either. I'd scoff up another if I could find another at a reasonable price.........Essex

[TooTaxed]

My preference for my Norinco over the other 1911A1s I've owned is based on shooting satisfaction. Most of the other guns are less reliable with specific variations of ammunition...all are just fine with 230-gr RN hardball...but go to lighter SWC bullets and occasional misfires happen. Also, accuracy varies fairly widely. I suppose you can tune any individual pistol to shoot a specific load reliably...alter feed ramps, change springs...but accuracy is more difficult to improve unless you use the services of a gunsmith.

But why go to the trouble? My Norinco has digested any load I've fed through it reliably, and accuracy out of the box is above normal compared to my other guns. My Norinco was bought second hand and the previous owner had used it for his first competitive target gun...and the only change he had made to it was to install a Clark trigger (the original trigger also came with the gun). The first time I shot it was to find out what I wanted a gunsmith to do to improve it...and I've found no need to change a thing! It shoots hardball just fine, but my favored target load is a 200-gr lead SWC loaded just hot enough to work the slide reliably. The finish is OK...nowheres as fine as my Kimber, but who cares? Finish is for pretty, but it doesn't help the groups get tighter.

If I decide to get into more professional competition I've a second Norinco NIB on which I'll have a gunsmith fit a target front and adjustable rear sight...but I'm not into that yet. That's by the recommendation of a very prominent gunsmith (now deceased) who specialized on making match pistols. He's the one who initially steered me onto the Norincos...otherwise I probably would have never bought one of those cheap Chinese imports!

[MarshallDodge]

I like my Norinco and have done about $50 in upgrades to it. I stopped there and bought a used pre series II Kimber Custom Target. Everything about the Kimber is nicer and I paid $500 for it.

Norinco's were great back when Colts were $500 and you had to do $300 in upgrades to get them where you wanted. Now there are so many good choices from Kimber, Springfield, STI (check out the Spartan), S&W, and Sig that I don't see why you would want to go that route unless you want a truly custom pistol when you are done.

[ulflyer]

I have 3 and one on the way. 2 are shooters and 2 are NIB. Only thing I've done to shooters is bigger sights for my old eyes. They outshoot my several Colts. The closest for accuracty, perhaps a tad better, is a Springer Loaded thats been tweaked a lot. I love the Norks as they can be tossed about with no fear of scratching or marring the finish. A solid, dependable, reliable gun. Love em! No idea why I have four; its just become a fetish I guess. Sorta like the Mak's I own.......:)

[Frandy]

Yo flyer,

Yeah, well...I should relieve you of one o' dose, bud. :evil:

[jaysouth]

I have two. One is box stock with about 20% of the finish left and a little polishing on the sear, disconector and hammer.

The other looks just about like the one Mr. Camp put up. Except mine has a shade-tree dura coat finish in putrid green, which is flaking off. However, I do carry this gun every day in a Rafter-s IWB. Someday, I will get around to getting it blued or black Td.

Both gun are more accurate than I am(maybe not saying much) and 100% reliable. Given the all tool steel parts in the gun, they represent a great value. The only thing the gun really has to have out of the box is larger sights for old folks like me. Like Mr. Camp, I put King's Hardball sights on my gun and had a smith do a trigger job. It has held steady at 3.5# for over 10,000 rounds. When I wear the gun out, I will fix up the box stock gun that needs finish.

When the second one wears out, I have a Les Baer Super-Tac for a backup. They will be a good deal until they cost more than a springfield Mil-spec AND new tool steel fire control parts that are almost manditory on them if you planning on shooting a lot.

[ulflyer]

Frandy: I'll make you a deal, being a fellow Carolinian.
Or maybe you'd like a Colt Mark 4 with bluing that knocks your eyes out, or 1991A1 NIB? Nah, just teasing you. :evil: