Problem with my first M1 Garand reload.......HELP


PDA






silver2525
January 6, 2012, 11:15 PM
I reloaded 20 rounds for my garand. Back ground info is:::::

Rcbs full length Xdie. ( i trimmed .020 below max 2.494. trim length 2.474

150 gr pro hunter bullet .308

oal was 3.229

Greek HXP brass....onced fired (by me)

Lee crimp lastly.


First 9 rounds fired no prob... 10th round i pulled the trigger CLICK.. i looked up and was shocked and scared to see the Bolt was out of battery. I could not move the oprod at all it was jammed. I took it to a gunsmith who used a rubber mallet to unjam. the neck was wrinkled like an accordian. i followed all the steps as good as i could. i dont know what to do know.

I was a nervous reloader when i started. now im more nervous. but i will not give up. any and all info would help. i will be working alot over the next week i will be slow to respond.......

If you enjoyed reading about "Problem with my first M1 Garand reload.......HELP" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
cfullgraf
January 6, 2012, 11:19 PM
Powder and charge weight?

jr_roosa
January 6, 2012, 11:39 PM
You need a case gauge, which will allow you to check your reloaded rounds for headspace and rough fit. Either that or you need to use the chamber on your rifle as a gauge, which requires removing the op-rod, ejector, and extractor so you can see if the bolt closes completely on your reloaded rounds.

Also, you don't need to crimp if you have good neck tension. If you over-crimp you could be deforming the neck and making it not fit the chamber.

-J.

ArchAngelCD
January 7, 2012, 03:23 AM
Powder and charge weight?
Like said above, we need to know what powder and charge weight you are using.

It's possible the ammo pushed the op-rod back so hard you jammed it. Too slow a powder or too hot a load will do that. You really don't want to bend that rod because it will cost you A LOT to replace it these days...

Jdillon
January 7, 2012, 09:14 AM
+1 on checking with case gauge to make sure you are sizing correctly. The wrinkled neck is puzzling and almost as if the neck diameter was too great for the chamber.

gpb
January 7, 2012, 09:39 AM
"10th round i pulled the trigger CLICK.. i looked up and was shocked and scared to see the Bolt was out of battery."

I don't know what the OP means by CLICK. Does that mean CLICK the hammer fell? I'm not a Garand expert, but are Garands supposed to drop the hammer when the bolt is out of battery? Could a Garand expert comment on this?

silver2525
January 7, 2012, 09:49 AM
powder was 42.3gr VARGET

YES... Click was the hammer fell. no detonation of the powder/primer.

I use CCI 34 in had a slight dimple in the primer.

soloban
January 7, 2012, 10:32 AM
May have had a bad primer or a piece of tumbling media in the flash hole. I've had my Garand do something similar. Maker sure you aren't touching primers when you reload (wear gloves) and make sure all flash holes are clear. Make sure you always trim as well. Concur with previous posters no need to crimp.

cfullgraf
January 7, 2012, 10:40 AM
If you are crimping, it is not necessary. You may have had a long case that got over crimped and upset the case.

A rifle case gauge will indicate an overly upset case, but an upset case can fit a case gauge and still not chamber in your rifle.

The rotation of the bolt keeps the firing pin out of the way of the hammer until the bolt is in battery. The hammer can still fall once the bolt is out of the way, in theory, it cannot hit the firing pin until the bolt is fully into battery.

The inertia of the firing pin can put a small dimple in the primer. Happens normally when a round chambers properly.

When the hammer fell, it served to jam the round harder into the chamber.

I would check my reloads. Remove the bolt from the rifle and carefully see if they chamber. They should drop in and fall out.

ssyoumans
January 7, 2012, 10:52 AM
Probably not the cause of your problem, but your load is very light. I know you loaded the min based on Hornady manual, but I'd suggest bumping it up a few grains, to at least 45.5gr

I load 47-48gr of Varget with Hornady FMJBT at 3.244", HXP Brass, CCI LR primers for 2547 - 2638 fps out of mine. 42.3 gr is pretty low. Your HXP was around 2750-2800 fps. keep it under 2700fps and you're good.

Standard word of caution: Data above exceeds data in the (overly conservative) Garand section of the Hornady manual. Not responsible for any use of data presented.

Finally, many THR members are very knowledgeable, but the most Garand experts can be found over at The CMP forums. Many of us have accounts there too. http://forums.thecmp.org/

Enjoy shooting your Garand!

kingmt
January 7, 2012, 11:25 AM
May have had a bad primer or a piece of tumbling media in the flash hole. I've had my Garand do something similar. Maker sure you aren't touching primers when you reload (wear gloves) and make sure all flash holes are clear. Make sure you always trim as well. Concur with previous posters no need to crimp.
How does any of this relate to what the OP said? I have never tested media in the flash hole but I'm sure I have loaded a few thousand with it in there. I just don't see how it could hurt.

USSR
January 7, 2012, 07:00 PM
If you are crimping, it is not necessary.

Yep, ditch the Lee crimp die.

Don

918v
January 7, 2012, 07:42 PM
You overcrimped. When you overcrimp the case collapses. When the case collapses it increases in diameter. When a case increases in diameter it wedges in the chamber. Then you can't open your action.

SlamFire1
January 8, 2012, 09:43 AM
First 9 rounds fired no prob... 10th round i pulled the trigger CLICK.. i looked up and was shocked and scared to see the Bolt was out of battery. I could not move the oprod at all it was jammed. I took it to a gunsmith who used a rubber mallet to unjam. the neck was wrinkled like an accordian. i followed all the steps as good as i could. i dont know what to do know.
I totally agree with not crimping. That may be the problem or one of the problems. Crimping will bulge the case shoulder.

For safety reasons in these semi auto’s you want the case to drop in the chamber and the bolt lugs to rotate completed closed without any resistance. It is dangerous, and I do mean out of battery slamfire dangerous, to have the cases so fat and so long that they are a crunch fit to the chamber. This will includes bulged case necks due to crimping.

In theory the receiver bridge is supposed to prevent the firing pin from contacting the primer before the lugs are engaged, but it is only partially effective in that role.

I pushed this bolt forward, with the firing pin fully forward, and stopped when the firing pin tang touched the receiver bridge. The firing pin is fully forward in these two receivers and you can see that there is very little forward bolt movement left. That free floating firing pin has a lot of time and distance to wack the primer before the receiver bridge holds it back.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M1a%20and%20Garand%20Receiver%20Pictures/ReducedSCN6746HRReceivershowingbrid.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M1a%20and%20Garand%20Receiver%20Pictures/ReducedDSCN6749IHCReceivershowingbr.jpg

If that bolt has to stop here, because the case is an interference fit in the chamber, that firing pin will rebound off the primer at its highest forward velocity. This is where out of battery slamfires occur because the receiver bridge is not holding the firing pin from contact with the primer. This can be very dangerous.

Something you should always do is use a case gage in setting up your sizing dies. For Garands, I recommend sizing to gage minimum. This is to ensure that your cases are not too long.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/ReducedWilsongagemeasuringnew308bra.jpg

These ledges are the difference between “GO” and “No Go”. Bottom ledge is Go and top ledge is No Go. No Go is too long. To be between these marks you need gages for measurement. You are never going to get there by "sizing to the shell holder and adding a quarter turn."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/Wilsongagebetweengoandnogage308bras.jpg


I also recommend sizing with small base dies. The closer your cases are to factory dimensions the better the function and safer the operation. This is how you control "too fat". Your cases will stick in the die if you use one of those inferior spray on lubes. Use RCBS water soluble or Imperial sizing wax. These are the slickest case lubes I have used.

So here is my case prep for Garands:

Use small base dies.

Size to gage minimum.

Trim case

Wash off lube

Clean primer pockets, ream pockets to depth on new cases.

Prime cases by hand and use the least sensitive primers out there (Tula 7.62 or CCI #34)

Inspect to ensure that all primers are below the case head.

Use IMR 4895 powder, dump powder into case.

Seat bullet LT 3.30". Standard 308 bullets are not jump sensitive so it is OK to seat them well off the lands.

No crimping!

243winxb
January 8, 2012, 01:27 PM
Possible bulge in the shoulder, if the RCBS X die is not adjusted correctly. See instruction online with photos. http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/XDieProductInstructions.pdf

BBDartCA
January 8, 2012, 05:46 PM
I had a similar return to battery problem in my Garand. It was pretty nasty - had to use a rubber mallet to open the action. I traced it to certain Greek JMO enblocs that did not have a proper ridge to hold the cartridges in place. Attached shows whats going on with my clips. I also had the battery issue and failure to feed issues related to this. Problem would occur with handloads, HXP various headstamps (with both the standard and non-standard extractor groove) and LC various head stamps. Now running just GI clips and the JMO with the proper ridge and it eats any ammo I throw at it.

gamestalker
January 8, 2012, 11:38 PM
I would put money on it being related to the crimp. Crimping bottle neck cartridges is probably the most common issue for those who load bottle necks. There is no need to crimp if your resizing die is set up properely, thus providing normal neck tension. The condition of the neck is the first clue.

Also, I noticed you stated that you trimmed your brass to .020" below max.? Why so much, SAAMI is .009" below max. if memory serves well.

P-32
January 9, 2012, 12:16 AM
I would dump the X die and the FCD. You do not need a small based die but you do need to make sure the brass fits the chamber. This is not hard to do with a normal '06 FL die. Because I do shoot a '06 M-1 in a match once in awhile, I invested into Forster match Dies including the Ultra seating die. My plain jane RCBS '06 dies worked for years though.

Trimming back as far as you did is not required either. I agree with not crimping. I have not crimped a M-1 Garand round in a lot of years. I know Varget is a popular powder but I am not so sure it is a good Garand powder. I have played with Varget but for now, I would not go any slower than IMR 4064. I know Varget is simular to IMR 4064 but I'm chicken when it comes to op rods. IMR 4064 does work very well in the M-1 anyways.

To stay safe from slam fires, I would use at least CCI standard primers. I know the Federal match primers do reduce group size but using Federals put a person at risk. CCI also makes a mil spec large rifle primer which gives a little better margin for safety.

Steve in PA
January 9, 2012, 07:50 AM
I use the RCBS x-die and they recommend to trim .020" below max. I've reloaded a lot of cases for my Garand. If you don't set up the x-die correctly, you could be getting a bulge in the neck.

Fatelvis
January 9, 2012, 07:59 AM
The rotation of the bolt keeps the firing pin out of the way of the hammer until the bolt is in battery. The hammer can still fall once the bolt is out of the way, in theory, it cannot hit the firing pin until the bolt is fully into battery.
Cfull is correct. The garand was acting normally by not firing while out of battery. Thank God it didn't!! I suspect the unneeded crimp was the culprit in this case. Have fun-

Jeff H
January 9, 2012, 08:04 AM
I would put money on it being related to the crimp. Crimping bottle neck cartridges is probably the most common issue for those who load bottle necks.


I would agree. When I first started loading for rifles, I crinkled a few case necks.

silver2525
January 11, 2012, 09:23 AM
Hello all. its me again. i had to go out of town for work unexpectedly. sorry so long to respond. I FOUND OUT THE PROBLEM. My friend did some digging. (he was there with me at the range when it happened) i digress.


The X die has 2 sets if instructions. one is general set up and the other is for setting up the Mandrell that keeps the neck from growing past where u set it.

I DID not adjust that. it pushed the neck down as the ram went up and seated the bullet FLARING out the neck and BULGED out the shoulder.

As i said before IM NEW to guns and reloading. i m not making excuses for my mistakes it was all my fault.


The crimp prob made it worse. thank you all for your time and advice. im printing all your advice out from this Thread so i will remember the advice you all gave me. Thank you all..

atblis
March 4, 2012, 07:31 AM
Are you trimming your brass specifically for the X die?

Captaingyro
March 4, 2012, 02:40 PM
Small base sizing vs. full length sizing. Crimp vs. no crimp. Bulged neck vs. no bulged neck. Trimming too short vs. trimming too long vs. trimming just right.

What do all these issues have in common? They're all accounted for by checking with a case guage.

Cheap insurance for an experienced reloader; essential for a novice.

superhornet
March 7, 2012, 02:37 PM
Just for info----The Lee Factory Crimp die will not bulge shoulder or neck or any other part of the cartridge. It is a squeeze type die that indents only the mouth of the cartridge. A standard die will and can cause shoulder to set back and bulge.

Hondo 60
March 7, 2012, 02:44 PM
Sounds like your crimp bulged the shoulder a bit.

Some will say ditch the crimp, but I recommend being VERY careful with the crimp.

Is it possible you missed one case when trimming?
A long case will definitely do this.

superhornet - the rifle crimp dies work differently than the handgun crimp dies.
An over crimp, especially on a long case definitely will bulge the shoulder.

silver2525
March 7, 2012, 04:17 PM
i took the x die back and got a set of lee dies. i must admit it was to complex for me as a new reloader. i also got a l.e. wilson 30.06 case guage and love it.

MEHavey
March 7, 2012, 05:18 PM
I'll maker it simple:

1. Retire the X-die and the FCD. Too many movin' parts and opportunities to go wrong
2. Get a standard/inexpensive 2-die RCBS die set. Small base probably not necessary
3. Full length size. Don't mess around.
4. Reload/seat to standard length (3.3"-ish is fine)
4. No. (repeat) NO crimp.

Have fun. (It ain't rocket science at this point)

silver2525
March 8, 2012, 12:48 AM
have fun is the part im trying for. i reloaded 7 rounds that functioned well. im a lot more relaxed now. thank u all.......NO Crimp is what the majority said. thank you all..........

walterelm
July 14, 2012, 01:34 PM
Silver2525 didn't get a answer, is that correct?
I have had the same problem he has.
1) X die ful length in .30 -06
2) cases are trimmed 0.020'' below max
3) as far as i can see, I followed the instruction for the X-sizer die

4) I loaded the empty and sized case in my Marlin X7 (ok, not a garand, a little off topic, I know). No Problem when closing action, case ejectes as it should when opening the action.

5) I used the seater die.

6) the round, when loaded, prevented the action to fully close
7) apparently, there is a little bulge at the neck of the case


solution: the seatind die was not adjusted correctl. I had srewed the seating die all the way down (that was the fault) til it touched the case holder. READ the instructions for the seating die :-)

If you enjoyed reading about "Problem with my first M1 Garand reload.......HELP" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!