Kidnapped girl in FL found dead


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critter
February 6, 2004, 08:42 AM
It looks as if the young girl who was kidnapped in FL at the car wash has been found murdered.

First, condolences to the family and friends.

Second, 'good on ya' to all the LEO's and others who have searched, investigated and captured the perp.

BUT: How many times have we seen this? A terrible crime committed by some piece of scum who has a wrap sheet measured in pounds!!! Our judicial/criminal system won't keep these predators. They are repeatedly released on us to do it yet again. That needs FIXING PRONTO!

To keep it gun related, this 'fine specimin' should have eaten a bullet by come CCW LONG ago!

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foghornl
February 6, 2004, 09:43 AM
This event torques me off on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

Kudos and thanks to all who particpated in the capture of this sub-human-unworthy-of-the-use-of-oxygen monster.

My deepest condolences to the Family & friends of that beautiful child.


Now, I'll just go somewhere and rant privately. Other things I should say about this cannot be published on The High Road

GSB
February 6, 2004, 10:20 AM
I really hope that if the guy they got is the perp that they tattoo "child killer" on him and release him into the general population of Starke.

This upsets and angers me to the point I don't even have words.

Skirmisher
February 6, 2004, 10:48 AM
Too bad our revolving door court system let this repeat felon out to murder.

Swamprabbit
February 6, 2004, 10:54 AM
IF there ever can be any good from this heart wrenching event maybe it is that since the abduction was captured on video, I have been pointing my three kids to it and tell them "this is why I am so blamed protective". My heart really goes out to the family and I hope this perp, if guilty, suffers forever!

AJ Dual
February 6, 2004, 11:07 AM
Good point Swamprabbit. I think I'll use this on my wife too.

From a pragmatic safety standpoint: This is a prime example of why to NEVER GO WITH AN ABDUCTOR, EVEN IF HE HAS A KINFE OR A GUN. Handgun wounds on a moving or running target are rarely fatal. Even if the movment starts out at nearly point blank range.

Scream, bite, yell rape, stranger, or fire, run, kick. Even if you are stabbed, hit, or shot, you're better of laying wounded in public, where there's at least a chance of 911, than sexually assulted, and the possibility even your bones won't be found.

Odds are, if your abductor is of the "catch and release" variety, he's not willing to shoot or stab you in the intial confrontation either. If he is the murdering sort, and even with the odds of survival in your favor if the victim runs, you, and your survivors, are better off dying undefiled IMO.

Logistar
February 6, 2004, 11:23 AM
This is why I would attempt to shoot and stop the perp if I had a decent shot (as posted in another thread). Anyone who kidnaps someone is likely up to no good. I'll gamble that a good shot from me beats the fate of the kidnappee.

AJ Dual, I agree with you completely.

Logistar

Hkmp5sd
February 6, 2004, 11:26 AM
The State needs to dust off "Old Sparky" for this one. No one will complain if a few flames shoot out from under the metal cap while turning him crispy.

Sindawe
February 6, 2004, 12:00 PM
Its time to bring out 'old hempy the rope' and hang this piece of excrament by the neck until dead. :fire: In public, and broadcast to ALL the prisons in the nation. GRRRRRRRR...

I had strong hunch that this would be the end result after hearing that the guy was picked up but was being 'uncooperative'.

I have a neice the same age in Florida, and sadly her mother (my sister) and G-mother have been able to condition her into being a quiet, docile 'good little girl' aka: the perfect victum. :banghead: As far as releasing violent scum like this from prisons again and again, I suggest to follow up on Mr. Bush's proposal to send humans to the moon, with the first humans going to set up a freaking penal colonly there. Send the rapists, muderers, and the like there FOR LIFE.

AJ is correct, NEVER EVER go with an abductor. Fight, yell, scream, claw, kick bite, what ever need to be done to get away.

benEzra
February 6, 2004, 12:04 PM
From a pragmatic safety standpoint: This is a prime example of why to NEVER GO WITH AN ABDUCTOR, EVEN IF HE HAS A KINFE OR A GUN. Handgun wounds on a moving or running target are rarely fatal. Even if the movment starts out at nearly point blank range.
Anyone have a link to the security camera video? When my daughter is (much) older, this scenario may be a good teaching tool. So sad.

Bill Hook
February 6, 2004, 12:07 PM
This guy, from what I heard this AM, tried to do this to a 20 year-old woman in 1998. She escaped and a passing motorist went after the guy with a golf club. His mouthpiece claimed he was just trying to prevent the woman from killing herself by running into traffic and his "rough" appearance was being held against him, so he walked. I believe she tipped off the cops about who he was.

Atticus
February 6, 2004, 12:22 PM
A damn sickening shame. :banghead:

Khornet
February 6, 2004, 12:58 PM
that there WILL be punishment for every crime. If you're a judge or parole board member, you can choose to punish the criminal, or you can decline to do so.....but then some little girl will get the death penalty instead.

Mercy to criminals is a death sentence to the innocent. But now we can at least say that one day, standing before the Judge of All, there will be several people answering for this crime: the killer, and those who let him go free. It won't be pretty.

harpethriver
February 6, 2004, 01:11 PM
According to Fox News this AM on Dec. 30 the perp's probation officer went before the court and tried to have him jailed for violating the terms of his parole. The judge refused. We don't know the details yet but when a PO allegedly goes to the lengths this one did to get this guy jailed he should have had a good reason. I can't wait to hear the details on this one. If Fox is correct and the facts show this perp should have been jailed then I vote for the judge who refused to get the same fate as the perp.

El Rojo
February 6, 2004, 01:39 PM
I agree with AJ. That is the main lesson I get out of this sad event. If she would have just screamed, yelled, ran away. I have not watched the whole video, so I don't know if he persuaded her or if he actually did threaten her. Everyone needs to tell their kids what to do. Both boys and girls. If you don't know them, stay away. If they try to make you do anything, run and scream at the top of your lungs.

Although I don't share the same thoughts and desires to have this guy tortured in numerous ways, I still think he is scum of the Earth. May he find peace with God because he will likely find no peace with man.

Sergeant Bob
February 6, 2004, 02:36 PM
According to Fox News this AM on Dec. 30 the perp's probation officer went before the court and tried to have him jailed for violating the terms of his parole. The judge refused. We don't know the details yet but when a PO allegedly goes to the lengths this one did to get this guy jailed he should have had a good reason.
He probably wanted to make room for more evil, non-violent drug offenders. :fire:

Russ
February 6, 2004, 02:52 PM
This is really sad and it makes me furious. The person who did this need to be dead. I think they should bring back public crusifixion. This guy needs to hang around for a few days in misery before he bites it.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
February 6, 2004, 03:08 PM
You see predators on parole like the animal in Florida killing innocent victims constantly, yet thick headed judges like Rhenquist still have the arrogance to argue against minimum mandatory sentences, against truth in sentencing statutes, against three strike laws, and against abolishing parole.

Gordon Fink
February 6, 2004, 03:37 PM
Wasn’t the perpetrator wearing a police uniform or some other type of “official” garb?

~G. Fink

orangeninja
February 6, 2004, 03:51 PM
You guys haven't mentioned the worst part yet.....

Guys who do this are almost always repeat offenders....and the fact that this guy was so BOLD shows that he has done this kind of thing so much that he no longer exhibits any nervousness when he does it. That means there are MORE little girls buried somewhere due to that sick bastard. Man...just give me 10 minutes with that guy.....I don't know exactly what I would do, but it would deffinantly involve broken glass and rusty screws......:cuss:

OF
February 6, 2004, 04:08 PM
Too bad our revolving door court system let this repeat felon out to murder.Too bad is right. Anyone have the statistics on what percentage of violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders? :fire:

Gordon: IIRC, it was more like mechanics coveralls.

- Gabe

OH25shooter
February 6, 2004, 04:09 PM
Those with young children have got to teach escape technics. And I'm not talking kicking in the shins. "IF" he/she can, go for the eyes. Sure, some are going to say, sounds easier than done. Well, we have just witnessed the end solution if you don't at least try. Kids are scrappy. They'll know when the threat and danger is serious.

Kim
February 6, 2004, 04:27 PM
Way back when I was a young lass my grandmother told me if a man ever did anything "Bad" or anyone tried to grab me I was to poke them in the eyes. And she did not mean just poke she showed with me with dramatic show of her hands she meant stick your finges in until you feel bone and have both eyes in your palm.. I have never forgot that. :D ---She also told me never to sit on a mans lap. Maybe she was right after all!!!!

Malone LaVeigh
February 6, 2004, 04:34 PM
I can only imagine the horror that family is going through. It sort of puts things into perspective.

OF
February 6, 2004, 04:58 PM
Make sure your kids (and your spouses) know that the time to fight is before they get you in the car. Do not get in the car thinking you will find a time to get away later. Do not get in the car.

- Gabe

HunterGatherer
February 6, 2004, 05:05 PM
Anyone have the statistics on what percentage of violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders?The stats vary a little bit over the years, but something like 85% of all violent crime is committed by +/- 5% of the human(?) population. Not all of that crime is committed by recidivist thugs, but a good chunk of it surely is.

May God be with the family of that little girl in their time of need.

And may the killer come to know eternal suffering. :fire: :cuss:

Bill Hook
February 6, 2004, 05:09 PM
I think the guy should only get 5 years for this, but all of them should be served in general population, with no exceptions. :evil:


I think it would be safe to say he wouldn't last a month.

ojibweindian
February 6, 2004, 05:21 PM
I was just messaging with my mom about this and we started talking about me and my brother running out into the woods behind our house all day and evening when we were kids.

She got to thinking that maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to let us do, but we were okay. Me, my brother, and most of our friends never went into the woods without our trusty knives. Mine was a butcher's knife about 6 inches long.

I'd love to use it on that POS right about now...

Hkmp5sd
February 6, 2004, 06:37 PM
me and my brother running out into the woods behind our house all day and evening when we were kids.
Back when I was a kid, I often accused my parents of being over protective. Even then, I would head out into the woods with my BB gun, ride my bike all over town and drag my fishing pole into some of the most out of the way swamps you could imagine.

Boy is it different when on the other side of the fence. I wouldn't even let my children play in the front yard without an adult watching or walk to the bus stop without an armed escort.

Sorry, mom and dad. You were right.

4v50 Gary
February 6, 2004, 08:59 PM
Funny when I first saw the televised video of him grabbing the girl and then the reporter stating that he didn't discuss her whereabouts, I knew then and there she was dead and that he needed to be rehabilitated through reincarnation. May he come back as asphalt so everybody gets to step over him.

P95Carry
February 6, 2004, 09:07 PM
So, so hard to find words. My heart goes out to the family.

The oxygen thief should be made to suffer long and hard ... but even that will not bring back Carlie .. just should remind us that wherever we live . there ARE sicko's .... and that is NOT paranoia.

Pilgrim
February 6, 2004, 09:16 PM
The sad part of this story is the young girl was the perfect prey animal. Watching the surveilance video, I was saddened that she was walking along staring at her feet. She was not aware of her abductor until he grabbed her by the arm.

Pilgrim

RightIsRight
February 6, 2004, 10:03 PM
The sad part of this story is the young girl was the perfect prey animal. Watching the surveilance video, I was saddened that she was walking along staring at her feet. She was not aware of her abductor until he grabbed her by the arm.

That struck me too. Not to insinuate she was at all responsible for what happened to her. In a perfect world, an innocent 11 y.o. would not be put into this situation.

Hopefully something can be learned from this horrible crime.

My heart goes out to her family.

I hope this piece of dog s*&t gets put in a cell with a 400# Ron Jeremy packin' madman.

4570Rick
February 6, 2004, 10:09 PM
Joseph Smith had been arrested 14 times on charges from drug possession to kidnapping. A 14 year old girl paid for his release with her life.

Back up 16 years. Patrick Purdy leagally buys a couple guns and shoots up a Central California School. Patrick Purdy had at least 11 arrests, most felony arests, and the students at a Stockton school payed for the plee barganing in the courts with their blood.

When are we (The People) going to stop this revolving door justice that keeps us in such peril.:fire:

Pilgrim
February 6, 2004, 10:47 PM
That struck me too. Not to insinuate she was at all responsible for what happened to her. In a perfect world, an innocent 11 y.o. would not be put into this situation.

I see so many young people just like her step out in the street to cross and they never look to see if traffic will yield and let them cross safely.

Pilgrim

TheBluesMan
February 6, 2004, 11:29 PM
Here's a link to the video of Carlie's abduction: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/alerts/attach/brucia.avi It is a 4.5 MB .avi file and it probably won't be left on this site for long.

Strictly speaking, this thread is off topic. I'm going to leave it open in the hopes that this video will enable parents to teach their children to remain alert (in condition yellow) whenever they are outside their homes.

May God rest her sweet little soul. :(

Wildalaska
February 6, 2004, 11:45 PM
Golly with all the talk about hanging etc, I didnt know the guy had been tried and convicted so fast...

WildthisonewillclosedownsoonIbetAlaska

Balog
February 6, 2004, 11:56 PM
Here ya go Wild, let me put it into more PC terms for ya.

The man responsible should be hung from the neck until dead. There ya go, nice and non-offensive.

Of course I personally would like to see 'em bring back the guillotine....

VNgo
February 7, 2004, 12:01 AM
Golly with all the talk about hanging etc, I didnt know the guy had been tried and convicted so fast...

Given that he was caught red-handed on surveillance video, any sane person (that is, everyone who isn't a lawyer) can be one hundred percent sure that he's guilty.

Intune
February 7, 2004, 12:05 AM
Public. If it's the will of the people puttin' him/her down, the people have a right/duty to observe. If it's too "heartwrenching" to watch then maybe one should mosey over to the life, no parole camp.

I always thought I was pretty much screwed when they matched my "I LOVE BERTHA" tattoo to the vid, but others may disagree. YMMV There's a lotta those out there. Bertha's, I mean.

Fred Thompson
February 7, 2004, 12:15 AM
To kinda go on topic..didn't Florida execute prisoners by firing squad at

one point and time?

Oh, and now one judge is saying that the P.O.'s had pushed for leniency

on Smiths part, so it really wasn't their fault...they want criminals to receive

treatment instead of paying for their crimes.

He deserves the same leniency he showed a few days ago.

Wildalaska
February 7, 2004, 12:41 AM
Given that he was caught red-handed on surveillance video, any sane person (that is, everyone who isn't a lawyer) can be one hundred percent sure that he's guilty.

Cool now we can eliminate the justice system .lets put cameras everwhre and just shoot whoever is caught in mischief...

I agree with you about those insane lawyers..I hope they dont pull no fast legal tricks to get those Interordnance machine gun purveyors off..

WildwhateverhappenedtoresponsibelAmericancitizensAlaska

Balog
February 7, 2004, 12:51 AM
Wild: don't be obtuse. No one is advocating lynching the bugger (not that I've seen anyway), they're simply looking forward to him getting punished. Why is wanting the guilty punished such a terrible thing in your eyes?

Intune
February 7, 2004, 12:53 AM
Yep, he's innocent. Put me on the jury, have experts come on to show his height at 5'8". Show me the matching tats on his arms and his nametag from the shop he worked at and her hair & fibers in his car. His DNA was planted too. INNOCENT, I say! And I am not a fan of Big Bro's cams everywhere but in this case it was an "indie" cam and it's gonna fry his butt...

VNgo
February 7, 2004, 12:53 AM
Cool now we can eliminate the justice system .lets put cameras everwhre and just shoot whoever is caught in mischief...

I agree with you about those insane lawyers..I hope they dont pull no fast legal tricks to get those Interordnance machine gun purveyors off..

WildwhateverhappenedtoresponsibelAmericancitizensAlaska

*roll eyes* Way to misrepresent my position.

Since he was caught in the act on camera, only a lawyer could possibly find *anything* whatsoever to say in in his defense. That doesn't mean all lawyers are unethical enough to defend a caught-red-handed murderer -- but some are.

Hkmp5sd
February 7, 2004, 12:53 AM
To kinda go on topic..didn't Florida execute prisoners by firing squad at one point and time?

Prior to 1923, executions were carried out by the counties and the primary method used was hanging. In 1923, the electric chair became the official method of execution and it was carried out by the state.

Wildalaska
February 7, 2004, 01:24 AM
That doesn't mean all lawyers are unethical enough to defend a caught-red-handed murderer -- but some are.

That quote is a perfect example of the loss of American values I am talking about.

No one is advocating lynching the bugger (not that I've seen anyway), they're simply looking forward to him getting punished. Why is wanting the guilty punished such a terrible thing in your eyes?

1 Reread the original posts.
2 The guy who took this childs life, assuming it is proved beyind a reasonable dobut that did so with the approrpiate mental culpability, inaccordance with well settled law, upon that conviction, has demonstrated that he is unfit to remain in society. Whether or not he is to pay the ultimate price is a difficult decision for 12 members of OUR community to make after they hear and consider, in their reasoned judgment, all of the facts and circumstances of the matter, none of which any of us will ever be privy too unless we sit there with them until the case is finished..

For the cries to come forth on this Board, again and again in this and other threads, to hang the criminal, burn him, shoot him rape him, torture him
"gimme five minutes with him", rip him to shreds and so on with all the glee involved in watching and inflicting pain is so tawdry and cheap in comaprison to the solem duty involved in bringing a measure of justice in this case and other that it beggars description.

And to raise those mob like animalistic cries makes us no better than the beasts we seek to keep away from our homes and families and desecrates the memories of this poor child.

And only a jury determines guilt on earth, not you or I. And only God makes the final call, and we aint him/her either.

And I aint never gonna shut up about it.

WildtakethehighroadAlaska

Fred Thompson
February 7, 2004, 01:51 AM
Wild,

I agreee that God and the jury make the final call. This is getting a lot of

media attention here because it's right where I live. They're (FBI, FDLE)

being very meticulous and through in their collection of evidence. I don't

think he's walking away this time.

This hits too close to home with every parent, and as far as ridiculing

those "animalistic cries", had it been my daughter, God forbid, I honestly

don't know what I'd feel or do, but I do know that deep down inside,

I'd damn sure want my "eye for an eye".

Intune
February 7, 2004, 02:03 AM
"wouldyoupulltheleverwithconviction?" Or "wouldyouwaitforGodtostrikehimdown?" Hmm?

HunterGatherer
February 7, 2004, 02:55 AM
If you ever find yourself wondering "Who are the people that vote for those who warp the law... twist it to the point of snapping... cause it to contort until it stands upon its own head - all for the purpose of seeing to it that killers go free because they were out of sorts in their mental state, or that they just plain didn't have a pony growing up?" you need go no further than this thread.

If not for the incremental decay in the people, in the law, if not for the search for ways to excuse the outrageous behavior of predatory maggots, this "suspect" would have been pushing up daisies seven or %&$#@*# eight felonies AGO!

Instead, he will most like be back making "mischief" with the carcasses of slaughtered 11 year old girls.

So he was caught taking this little girl to her death on camera. Ooooh! How terribly unfair. In fact, I'll bet a "good" liar... er... lawyer, could make the case that the little trollop unfairly baited him into coming into the video frame. Yeah! That's the ticket!

Let's chip in and get the guy a pony. Maybe we can make up for the amount of time that he has lost from making his usual "mischief". :barf:

Wildalaska
February 7, 2004, 04:25 AM
all for the purpose of seeing to it that killers go free because they were out of sorts in their mental state

I see, so is it fair to assume that you do not recognize defenses of diminished capacity, mental retardation and insanity? I assume further that you would not see those as mitigating factors in a punishment phase even if not applicable in the guilt phase...

Hey maybe when one of you or one of relatives gets cuaght DWI or maybe fallin asleep at the wheel and killin somebody, god forbid, you too will have your own "liar" to represent your interests...

wouldyoupulltheleverwithconviction?" Or "wouldyouwaitforGodtostrikehimdown

I would never take a job as an executioner, not my cup of chai. I would condemn someone to death if on a jury and appropriate circumstances were laid before it. I wouldnt go on a meassge Board and shout gleefully that "hey I hung the bastid", or "the dirty rotten snipe deserved it" while punctuating my remarks with cutie smilies such as:cuss: and:fire: and I doubt real executioners, saddled with a solemn duty that probably takes a lot out of em, would do so either.

WildwherearethevaluesAlaska

JPM70535
February 7, 2004, 05:31 AM
Every time I see thne video of the abduction of that little girl I am so very thankful that we had boys. As long as Michael Jackson doesn't get to my little part of Florida they will be safe. Just kidding, they are both too old to be of interest to a pervert.

Not that it will give any comfort to the victims parents, but child molesters have a decidedly shortened life span in prison. "Short Eyes" I believe the term is are hated and despised just as much by the Normal criminals as by you and I only they have nothing to lose by offing a worthless piece of dog crap like this one. Like so many others I just think its a damn shame the Judge who refused to jail the scum can't be sentenced right along with him.

Bring back public executions in the town square at high noon, sell food and drink and give the proceeds to the victims family.

4570Rick
February 7, 2004, 06:03 AM
I will agree that Mr. Joseph Smith deserves a fair and impartial trial. That being said, if he is found competent to stand trial and, he is found guilty of the murder of that INNOCENT LITTLE GIRL by a preponderance of the evidence, then I have no problem with him being drawn and quartered. If however he is found to be of diminished capacity, then he should be locked away for the rest of his natural life period. He has shown himself to be a career criminal and in my opinion (and as a person of decent moral values and the ability to reason, I have a right to an opinion) this miscreant has earned the privilege of never being allowed to socialize publicly.

















4570scumbagcriminalsareathreattosocietyRick

HunterGatherer
February 7, 2004, 07:55 AM
I see, so is it fair to assume that you do not recognize defenses of diminished capacity, mental retardation and insanity? I assume further that you would not see those as mitigating factors in a punishment phase even if not applicable in the guilt phase...There are occasions when those arguments could be made. Roughly 1 case in about 500,000, maybe, if that.

The original legal principle behind what is commonly known as "the insanity defense" is that the accused is rendered incapable of material participation in their own defense by the effects of their alleged mental illness/incapacity.

Today's courts have perverted that principle for reasons of expediency. If a person is truly incapable of participating in their own defense, then they should be voluntarily or involuntarily committed to a mental health care facility until such time that they are deemed by the medical profession to have recovered sufficiently to then participate in their own defense. That is currently not the case. In today's courts, malfeasance is the order of the day in that the accused in these cases are never tried in order to determine whether or not the accused did in fact commit/not commit their alleged crime. Perhaps most ironic of all is that murder cases - more so than most other cases - would accomodate even the longest of committment terms since there is no statute of limitations on MURDER.

But justice is not what is sought in these cases. Justice doesn't seem to be sought anywhere any more. Justice would demand that reasonable people understand that a person capable of stalking, abducting, murdering, and doing God only knows whatthehellelse to a child, while evading all but the most sophisticated means of detection, is in no way a candidate for a diminished capacity defense. A reasonable person already understands that people who are truly unaware, people incapable of the requisite mens rea (guilty mind) would also be totally incapable of stealth and cunning. By definition those suspects would be completely incapable of understanding the need for those things.

The death of this sweet child is sad, but most tragic of all is that there will be a thousand more where she came from because virtually no one cares that the law has been so horribly perverted. And of that pathetic rabble, there are those who will immediately leap to the defense of killers of the innocent, no matter how flagrant their crime. No matter how unspeakable their acts.

Not even when they see it with their own eyes.

Sindawe
February 7, 2004, 12:12 PM
WildAlaska: I see, so while you could vote to convict/execute someone, you don't have the werewhithall to do the deed yourself after conviction? Hmmm.... I do believe that there is a term for one who holds such a position, but its not spoken in polite society.

:scrutiny:

As for diminished mental capicity and capital punishment. We as a society will 'put down' a mad dog, or even a dog that behiaves like a dog and defends his food, but not a 'human' who has proven themselves to be untrustworthy and a danger to others. This has puzzled me to no end since I was a kid.

The accused in this sad case has a long, documented history of anti-social behaivor and predatory actions on his own species, yet time after time he was let loose to walk the streets and indulge his urges. This infuriates and sickens me to no end.

Bill Hook
February 7, 2004, 01:18 PM
WildwherearethevaluesAlaska

If the man is guilty, I'd have no problem in pulling the lever and would feel good about having helped society.


I see, so is it fair to assume that you do not recognize defenses of diminished capacity, mental retardation and insanity? I assume further that you would not see those as mitigating factors in a punishment phase even if not applicable in the guilt phase...

I'm going to assume this girl was sexually assaulted before (and/or after?) being murdered, since these kinds of persons need more than killing to satisfy their sick urges. If this is the case, I don't see how any defense can explain away premeditation. I'd also argue that this person may be, make that IS, insane. So was Ted Bundy, but not to the exclusion of their grasp that what they were doing was wrong. Insanity doesn't seem to be a defense that would sway most juries when the prosecutor presents photos of wounds and bite marks on the victim or shows the RFLP autorad of the defendant's DNA, the victim's DNA and the Killer's DNA (which matches the defendant), as collected from vaginal swabs.

Wildalaska
February 7, 2004, 05:10 PM
Rick
I will agree that Mr. Joseph Smith deserves a fair and impartial trial. That being said, if he is found competent to stand trial and, he is found guilty of the murder of that INNOCENT LITTLE GIRL by a preponderance of the evidence, then I have no problem with him being drawn and quartered. If however he is found to be of diminished capacity, then he should be locked away for the rest of his natural life period.

The standard is reasonable doubt, not preponderance.

Dont you think that we are a bit more civilized than doing "drawing and quartering"??? Or are we to sink, as a society, to the level of those we excoriate.

Hunter gatherer:

There are occasions when those arguments could be made. Roughly 1 case in about 500,000, maybe, if that.

O really? got some stats or facts to back up that statement?

The original legal principle behind what is commonly known as "the insanity defense" is that the accused is rendered incapable of material participation in their own defense by the effects of their alleged mental illness/incapacity.

Sorry that is wrong.

If a person is truly incapable of participating in their own defense, then they should be voluntarily or involuntarily committed to a mental health care facility until such time that they are deemed by the medical profession to have recovered sufficiently to then participate in their own defense. That is currently not the case.

That is also completely erroneus.

Sindawe
WildAlaska: I see, so while you could vote to convict/execute someone, you don't have the werewhithall to do the deed yourself after conviction? Hmmm.... I do believe that there is a term for one who holds such a position, but its not spoken in polite society.

There is also a term for someone who would eagerly seek out the chance to kill another human being isnt there....

We as a society will 'put down' a mad dog, or even a dog that behiaves like a dog and defends his food, but not a 'human' who has proven themselves to be untrustworthy and a danger to others. This has puzzled me to no end since I was a kid.

Puzzles PETA too, they dont see any difference between men and animals.

Bill

If the man is guilty, I'd have no problem in pulling the lever and would feel good about having helped society.

Would ya really? Really Bill, not a twinge of conscience? How would ya feel if ya pulled the switch and the person was later found innocent?


WildgooddebatesofarexceptforsomeflamersAlaska

GSB
February 7, 2004, 06:19 PM
Okay, enough of this. Here's the background on what constitutes or does not constitute legal instanity in the state of Florida.

http://www.chackoforensicpsychiatry.com/news/2003/news_06.htm

What is the Florida Test for Criminal Insanity?

The test of legal insanity in Florida is taken from the M'Naghten rule, derived from England's M'Naghten law of 1843. To establish an insanity defense under the M'Naghten rule, a defendant must prove that at the time of the criminal act, he was "laboring under such a defect of reason from mental illness as not to know the nature and quality of the act or not to know that the act was wrong." Florida has followed the M'Naghten rule since the Florida Supreme Court decided Davis v. State, (Fla. 1902), a century ago.

The Florida Standard Jury Instructions tells the jury "A person is considered to be insane when (1) he had a mental infirmity, disease or defect and (2) because of this condition he did not know what he was doing or its consequences or, although he knew what he was doing and its consequences, he did not know it was wrong."

Bill Hook
February 7, 2004, 09:26 PM
How would ya feel if ya pulled the switch and the person was later found innocent?

If the perp has left DNA or dental evidence behind, or has the victim's hair and fiber evidence in his vehicle as well as the videotape of him and, perhaps, matching shoeprints at the scene, then I'd hardly think that his innocence is much of an issue. Eyewitness testimony is another matter.


Really Bill, not a twinge of conscience?

Same twinge I get when stepping on a roach.

Art Eatman
February 7, 2004, 09:35 PM
Wildalaska, I don't think I'm particularly mean or hard hearted. I'm kinda laid back and easy going. I basically like people, mostly.

That said, I grew up with the notion that "Some folks just need killin'." I figure that if somebody acts in such a manner as to deny their own humanity, the "step on a roach" comment is quite apropos. This doesn't mean I'm all slobbery over the opportunity to be an executioner, but it's sorta hard to get excited against the job.

:), Art

VNgo
February 7, 2004, 09:47 PM
I don't believe in the idea of "not guilty by reason of insanity". If you're mentally ill to the point of commiting a crime, you're just as great a threat to society as you would be if you had willfully and knowingly committed the same crime.

P95Carry
February 7, 2004, 10:01 PM
I grew up with the notion that "Some folks just need killin'." Art .. I agree. And I say that as a VERY peace lovin guy .. I have little wish to cause harm to anyone ... almost too 'soft'' some might say.

But .. in certain cases I am afraid I do think like this .. when facts prove beyond doubt that a perp ''did it'' ....... and when it is something like this, then I feel the perp has rescinded all right to life on this small and ever more over crowded rock we live on.

Harsh maybe, but ........

4570Rick
February 7, 2004, 11:57 PM
Edited for the benefit of Wildalaska

I will agree that Mr. Joseph Smith deserves a fair and impartial trial. That being said, if he is found competent to stand trial and, he is found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of the murder of that INNOCENT LITTLE GIRL, then I have no problem with him being drawn and quartered. If however he is found to be of diminished capacity, then he should be locked away for the rest of his natural life period. He has shown himself to be a career criminal and in my opinion (and as a person of decent moral values and the ability to reason, I have a right to an opinion) this miscreant has earned the privilege of never being allowed to socialize publicly.

I hope this is more to the liking of Wild. The point I was making is this. If Joe Smith is found to have caused the death of an 11 year old child, he in essence, mentally disturbed or not, has by his actions, relinquished his rights to freedom now and forever.

As for the drawn and quartered remark, it is a metaphor for "Let the state of Florida put him to death by whatever means they deem appropriate, beit old sparky, old ropy, old gassy, or old needley.

Sindawe
February 8, 2004, 01:40 PM
WildAlaska: I'm not looking for every opportunity to kill another human being. I just will not ask of another person something that I am not willing to do myself. With respect to the manner of execution in our society, IMHO it has become far too 'sanitary'. Killing another person is a great and terrible thing, something not to be taken lightly, and those in whos name the killing is done need to know, in the core of their being the magnitite of the act. Executions behind closed doors, by chemical injection makes it far too easy for those not directly involved to pretend it does not effect them, and that they are not party to it.

Art/VNgo/P95: My thoughts exactly

telewinz
February 8, 2004, 02:43 PM
It's you tax payers who are at fault, you won't spend the money to build the prisons to keep these monsters locked-up and you don't have the stomach to put them to death. What do you expect? Judges are given sentencing guidelines based on the amount of space available in the jails and prisons. It is NOT uncommon for a jail or prison to refuse a sentenced inmate due to a lack of room. You get what you pay for and we have nothing more than a part-time penal system.

ksnecktieman
February 8, 2004, 06:47 PM
I do believe in insanity as a defense. Insanity means that you do not know right from wrong. It is not a temporary condition. It is a mental inadequacy, and it is as scarce as dinosaur feathers and bear eggs. If a person does not know right from wrong, someone has been caring for them, seeing that they eat, and wear a coat when it is cold, and taking care of their medical needs. In that case there is a secondary responsibility with the person caring for them. If they have been working and supporting themselves, they understand right and wrong, and are not insane.

If there is a conviction in this case I think the killer should be executed. If there is a problem finding an executioner, I will hitchhike to florida and do it for them. I would not mind facing god with his execution on my conscience.

I think the criminal justice system that let him walk the streets is criminal and is a system, but it is not just.

4570Rick
February 8, 2004, 06:55 PM
I agree. A few years ago, Orange County wanted to build a jail in Santa Ana. The NIMBY's went balistic, saying it would be dangerous to have jail inmates so close to residential neighborhoods. So instead, they roam the streets for lack of facilities to confine them.:fire:

Hutch
February 8, 2004, 06:59 PM
And to raise those mob like animalistic cries makes us no better than the beasts we seek to keep away from our homes and families Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. WA, are you able to make evaluative judgements? I mean, other than about the worthiness of your kindred here on TFL. The man is caught on tape. There are distinguishing characteristics. He has a record as long as your arm. An 11-year old child is dead, and her community grieves. What does it take for you to draw a conclusion of "guilty as charged"? Also, what difference does his mental state make? If he has the mental capacity to carry out such a crime, he has the responsibility to be punished accordingly.

There ARE moral absolutes. This man violated numero uno. He should die, at the hands of the State.

Andrew Rothman
February 8, 2004, 07:05 PM
How about a little perspective about this guy's long "rap sheet?"

A complete news story detailing his record is below. Here are excerpts.

Smith's first brush with Florida's criminal justice system was a 1993 arrest for attacking a woman on a street in Sarasota, breaking her nose with a motorcycle helmet. He plead no contest to aggravated battery and served 60 days in jail followed by two years on probation.

So far so good?

In 1997, he was put on one year's probation on a concealed weapons charge for carrying a five-inch knife hidden in the waistband of his shorts.

Aren't most of us in favor of removing licensing for concealed carry? Don't many of us advocate carrying protection regardless of the law? So isn't this guy on our side?

In 1999, he was arrested for heroin possession and was put on probation for 18 months. A month later, he was arrested for prescription fraud, but the charge was dropped.

Ah, yes, The War on Some Drugs. Don't many here advocate decriminalizing victimless "crimes" like drug abuse and letting people poison themselves if they wish?

The next year, he was arrested again for prescription fraud and sentenced to six months of house arrest followed by a year on probation.
...
In 2001, Smith was arrested for prescription fraud, and that time he did land in prison. He served about 13 months of a 16-month sentence and was released on New Year's Day 2003.

Eight days later, deputies found Smith passed out in his car with drugs on the seat beside him.

He could have gone to prison for five years, but a scoring system that judges use to determine sentencing didn't add up to enough to put Smith in prison, records showed. Instead, he was put on probation for three more years.

Here's the thing: With the exception of whacking a chick with a helmet ten years ago, for which he served his time, the guy hadn't committed a violent crime.

This is not a "revolving door" case. Yes, he might be a bad guy, but the system, correctly, decided to put other, presumably worse bad guys into the already-full-to-overflowing prison.

The prisons, we know, wouldn't be nearly so full if drugs were decriminalized. But if they were, he still wouldn't be in.

Unfortunately, we can't see into people's hearts. If we could, this guy might have been locked up. But the system did not substantially fail us in this particular case. We just had no way of knowing that this guy would turn out to be a kidnapping murderer.

This sucks, but unfortunately I see very little that could have been done differently.


http://www.startribune.com/stories/670/4364901.html
Slain Girl's Kin Question Justice System
By VICKIE CHACHERE, Associated Press Writer

Published February 8, 2004 0208AP-ABDUCTION-FIL



SARASOTA, Fla. (AP) - For the better part of a decade, the man suspected of killing an 11-year-old girl whose abduction was caught on videotape had been under the supervision of Florida's criminal justice system. But despite his many brushes with the law, Joseph P. Smith never spent long behind bars.

Now, Carlie Brucia's grieving family is demanding to know why Smith - a drug addict who admitted attacking one woman and was accused of trying to kidnap another - was a free man.

The longest Smith has ever spent in prison is less than 14 months. He was acquitted of the most serious crime on his rap sheet, an attempted kidnapping, after telling jurors he meant the woman no harm.

Florida Attorney General Charlie Crist said Saturday that his office already was reviewing whether the state's probation laws need to be toughened to deal with offenders like Smith.

"You can't help but think some of the statutes are too permissive," Crist told The Associated Press. "I think it's important we review putting more teeth into our statutes."

Crist said the laws being reviewed deal with probation violators and the options judges are given to punish them.

That review took on new intensity Friday when Joe Brucia, Carlie's father, called on Gov. Jeb Bush for an investigation of why Smith had served relatively little time in prison despite more than a dozen arrests.

"The system failed Joe, and it failed that little girl," Smith's friend and former business partner, Ed Dinyes, told the St. Petersburg Times.

Dinyes, who said he called police after recognizing Smith in video images broadcast soon after the abduction, told the AP that although he's struggling with the idea that Smith could be Carlie's killer, his friend should have been locked up because of his repeated crimes.

"Joe is the one who must pay the price for this, but the state of Florida has to take a good long look at the probation department and find out what went wrong," Dinyes said.

Carlie was abducted Feb. 1 while walking home from a friend's house, and videotape from a security camera at a car wash showed her being led away by a man police say was Smith. The girl's body was found Friday in a church parking lot.

Sarasota Circuit Judge Harry Rapkin, the latest judge to have handled Smith's case, said Friday he was not at fault for not putting Smith in jail when the unemployed mechanic failed to pay court costs and fines in December.

There's no "debtor's prison" in Florida and Smith wouldn't have been held simply for not paying a bill, the judge said.

Rapkin has been receiving threatening telephone calls for his handling of the case, even though he never even saw Smith in his courtroom.

Smith's first brush with Florida's criminal justice system was a 1993 arrest for attacking a woman on a street in Sarasota, breaking her nose with a motorcycle helmet. He plead no contest to aggravated battery and served 60 days in jail followed by two years on probation.

Since then, Smith has been on probation almost continually.

In 1997, he was put on one year's probation on a concealed weapons charge for carrying a five-inch knife hidden in the waistband of his shorts.

In 1999, he was arrested for heroin possession and was put on probation for 18 months. A month later, he was arrested for prescription fraud, but the charge was dropped.

The next year, he was arrested again for prescription fraud and sentenced to six months of house arrest followed by a year on probation.

According to court records, his probation officer said it was impossible to tell if a positive drug test result was from an illegal drug or a legitimate prescription of Oxycontin for severe, chronic back pain.

"Needs long term residential treatment ... prison if necessary," the probation officer wrote in a report that's now a part of Smith's court file.

As the newest judge on Smith's case, Rapkin said he's never seen that report or others on Smith's crimes throughout the years.

In 2001, Smith was arrested for prescription fraud, and that time he did land in prison. He served about 13 months of a 16-month sentence and was released on New Year's Day 2003.

Eight days later, deputies found Smith passed out in his car with drugs on the seat beside him.

He could have gone to prison for five years, but a scoring system that judges use to determine sentencing didn't add up to enough to put Smith in prison, records showed. Instead, he was put on probation for three more years.

State Sen. Victor Crist, chairman of the Senate Criminal Justice Committee and a leading legislator in anti-crime initiatives for the past decade, said it is ultimately the judge's decision when not to use the full measure of punishment allowed by the law.

"The laws are there," Crist said. "We can always tweak them, we can always make tougher penalties, but the bottom line is we have tough penalties, we just don't enforce them."
© Copyright 2004 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.

[edit: sticky space bar! Added spaces at "hadnoway"]

Wildalaska
February 8, 2004, 10:29 PM
Art:

This doesn't mean I'm all slobbery over the opportunity to be an executioner, but it's sorta hard to get excited against the job.

We are in agreement then...I cant say that I oppose death...but ya aint gonna see me getting all slobbery and excited over it.

Bill
If the perp has left DNA or dental evidence behind, or has the victim's hair and fiber evidence in his vehicle as well as the videotape of him and, perhaps, matching shoeprints at the scene, then I'd hardly think that his innocence is much of an issue.

Hmm..according to the FBI forensic labs, such evidence doesnt lie....does it? :)

Hutch
The man is caught on tape. There are distinguishing characteristics. He has a record as long as your arm. An 11-year old child is dead, and her community grieves. What does it take for you to draw a conclusion of "guilty as charged"? Also, what difference does his mental state make? If he has the mental capacity to carry out such a crime, he has the responsibility to be punished accordingly.

As to record, see Mpaynes answer....

As to what it takes for me to draw a conclusion of guilty as charged...I will never do that..I will however defer to the decsion of the jury who hears all the evidence....

And what difference does his mental state make? Arent there sceanrios where a person is not insane under the terms of the Mcnaughton rule but are still mentally ill? Guilty yes, but should they die if their mental illness is the root casue of their crime?

WilquestionsquestionsAlaska

Bigjake
February 8, 2004, 11:22 PM
here be yet another reason i am going to buy my girlfriend (soon to be fiance) whatever piece fits her as soon as she gets her ccw. nothing says i love you like a little .357, right?:D

Bill Hook
February 9, 2004, 12:40 AM
With the exception of whacking a chick with a helmet ten years ago, for which he served his time, the guy hadn't committed a violent crime.

Correction, wasn't CONVICTED of a violent crime. Attempted kidnapping sure qualifies.

I wonder what he wanted with that young woman?

Hmm..according to the FBI forensic labs, such evidence doesnt lie....does it?

The evidence doesn't, but those working with it might. I'd want it to be available for independent analysis by the defense.

VNgo
February 9, 2004, 01:28 AM
Guilty yes, but should they die if their mental illness is the root casue of their crime?

Yes. I would go so far as to say someone who commits a capital crime due to insanity should always be executed, since there is little chance of rehabilitation and it would be an utter waste of taxpayer money to try.

Andrew Rothman
February 9, 2004, 01:53 AM
With the exception of whacking a chick with a helmet ten years ago, for which he served his time, the guy hadn't committed a violent crime.Correction, wasn't CONVICTED of a violent crime. Attempted kidnapping sure qualifies.

Qualifies as what? He was acquitted.

This is, again, what the news article said:He was acquitted of the most serious crime on his rap sheet, an attempted kidnapping, after telling jurors he meant the woman no harm.

This sentence from the article is written in a very biased manner.

He was acquitted. Therefore it certainly is NOT a "crime" on his "rap sheet" any more than anyone else arrested, charged and found not guilty. It's the way our system works. It should have read:

He was acquitted of the most serious charge on his rap sheet, an alleged attempted kidnapping, after successfully convincing jurors he meant the woman no harm.

Maybe he really wasn't guilty of attempted kidnaping in that instance. In any case, he was judged and acquitted by a jury of his peers. The system worked just like it was supposed to.

This whole event was a horrible tragedy, but there is really no one to blame except the sicko who did the crime.

No change in the criminal justice system, short of "damn the trials -- shoot all suspects" would have made a difference.

If anything at all can be taken away from this, it is to better train and more closely guard your children.

HunterGatherer
February 9, 2004, 01:56 AM
Guilty yes, but should they die if their mental illness is the root casue of their crime?If it would be unjust to put them to death for their crime, would it not then be unjust to incarcerate them? You say that their illness is "the root cause" are they not then absolved? Taking a person's liberty is nothing to be considered lightly.

If illness caused their crime, and they are not responsible for the illness, how then can they be expected to pay - in any fashion - for said crime?

In any case, the most common thread that invariably runs through the litany of legal fictions called "the insanity defense" or "the McNaughton rule" (from English common law BTW) is that these bastards are insane enough for their lawyers to plead it, but not so insane as to avoid slinking back under their rock in the aftermath of the mayhem they inflict. Yeah, they don't know right from wrong. It's simply a coincidence that they do double-back handsprings to hide their crime.

HunterGatherer
February 9, 2004, 02:34 AM
No change in the criminal justice system, short of "damn the trials -- shoot all suspects" would have made a difference.There are lots of changes that can, and do make a difference. Elimination of plea bargaining would be an excellent place to begin. The "rap sheet" on the dirtbag in question is almost certainly incomplete in terms of all of the crimes with which he was charged. Three strikes and you're out laws are another excellent tool.Since then, Smith has been on probation almost continually. Well duh! How often do we get to hear this one? WoD Wod WOD well too bad! That the Wod sucks doesn't give that person a pass to break the damn law every couple of months for over a decade.

We could stop taking repeat offender dirtbags (whatever their offense) lightly. Their continuous anti-social behavior is God's way of telling us that one got out of the oven half-baked! There is something wrong with them. They are hell bent on committing crimes. Why is that so hard to understand? So isn't this guy on our side?Reason # 1,987,054,362 that I'll never be able to take liberals seriously.

No he's not on my side at least. I'm totally in favor of letting people carry unlicensed provided they aren't criminals.If anything at all can be taken away from this, it is to better train and more closely guard your children.Yeah. I saw a CBS news segment on this, they basically said it was the little girl's fault for not knowing Wing Chung Fu. Not a word was spoken about how insane it is for a society to let amoral repeat offender scum troll the streets for fresh meat. Reason # 1,987,054,363 that I'll never be able to take liberals seriously.

Funny how these predators seem to take kids in places where they feel welcome. Places where they can almost be assured that the judge will take into account that the scumbag grew up without a pony. They are supposed to be nuttier than a fruitcake, and yet they somehow know who they can count on to release them so they can indulge in their criminal behavior again. Remarkable really, when you think about it.

Not a lot of child predators out in rural America where we just don't abide scum... hmmmm...

Bill Hook
February 9, 2004, 02:36 AM
He was acquitted.

So was O.J.


This sentence from the article is written in a very biased manner.

Perhaps.

I tend to believe what I've heard about the incident as related from his intended victim. I stand by my original point - not being convicted doesn't mean he didn't commit the crime.

John Gotti was only convicted in ONE of a handful of trials he received, but that didn't mean that the authorities went and buried their heads in the sand and cried in their beers. They kept track of him and built a new case; the authorities were remiss in not doing so with a man with such obvious potential, as in this instance. I'll ask a question again: what did one expect this man to do with his first victim, had he not been thwarted?

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