Rendering a round inert


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Der Stro
January 7, 2012, 07:28 PM
Hi guys,

I'll soon be purchasing a Nagant 1895 revolver and plan to display it among various Soviet-era stuff I've collected over time. I would also like to display a few of the unique 7.62 Nagant rounds with it, however I'm a little hesitant about having live rounds next to a revolver on a shelf. There are no children in the house nor do any ever come, but it just doesn't strike me as a bright idea. I was wondering if anyone knew a method of making a cartridge safe without reloading equipment.

I imagine I can't exactly take a power drill to the primer and drill it out and dump the powder, would it be possible to perhaps drill a very small hole in the brass and then soak the entire round in...something to ruin the powder/primer?

Again, I've never done anything like this and it's largely just a "Can I do it" kind of question. Any and all input would be welcome.

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TennJed
January 7, 2012, 07:37 PM
I assume you do not reload, but If you do just make some primerless/powderless rounds.

I made up some example non live rounds to mount to my reloading bench. Wanted to display the calbers I load for

Der Stro
January 7, 2012, 07:42 PM
As I mentioned before I do not have access to any reloading equipment, however I don't think any exists for the 7.62 Nagant

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/520/520853.jpg

Shadow 7D
January 7, 2012, 07:54 PM
As I mentioned before I do not have access to any reloading equipment, however I don't think any exists for the 7.62 Nagant


FAIL
besides the fact that if can be reloaded by other dies, (.32 S&W long with the seater put all the way down)

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/570?
yeah, um google works and all that....

Drill a hole through the case, dump the powder and soak the inside with oil, then put in the the gun, pointed in a safe direction (say down range at a gun range) and pull the trigger, either it worked, or it didn't, but it should work

Der Stro
January 7, 2012, 07:57 PM
As I don't own a reloading press, or any of the necessary equipment, I did not even bother searching for reloading dies for the cartridge, my apologies.

Will the oil keep the primer from firing as well? Or should I expect a possible squib.

MuleRyder
January 7, 2012, 08:05 PM
The oil should render the primer inop

J-Bar
January 7, 2012, 08:06 PM
Once upon a time I had to send a jammed revolver back to the factory. There were live rounds in the cylinder but I could not unjam the gun to remove them.

The representative at the factory instructed me to get a gallon of WD-40 from a hardware or auto parts store, remove the grips from the gun, and immerse the gun in the WD-40 for a week before shipping it back. So I did.

I figure they know what they are doing. I would not drill on a live round. I would soak the ammo in WD-40 for a week. If you don't have a friend with a bullet puller, blow $15 and buy one:

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=bullet+puller

Pull the bullets from the case, dump the powder, then put the case in the rifle and pop the primer, if it will pop. It shouldn't after soaking, but you know, Murphys law.

Then replace the bullet in the case and crimp it with a pair of pliers. You will be able to identify the dummy rounds ..they are the ones with the dented primer.

BeerSleeper
January 7, 2012, 08:13 PM
Fire the round into a sufficiently deep bucket of water.
Recover the bullet.
Stick it back in the case.
No reloading tools required.

The bullet puller would be the better way. If you're willing to buy that $15 tool, you can dump the powder, load the casing, pop the primer, and put the bullet back in the casing, with spent primer, no powder, and the additional advantage that the bullet will fit tighter due to the case not having been stretched from firing.

BeerSleeper
January 7, 2012, 08:15 PM
This has me tempted to test this on a handful of rounds.

Black Knight
January 7, 2012, 08:16 PM
Why not give Midway, Brownell's, and Dillon Precision a call? Ask them if they have dummy rounds for your purpose. If they don't they may know where you can get some. Nothing beats a try but a success. Good luck.

leadchucker
January 7, 2012, 08:17 PM
An inertial bullet puller is around $15 - $20 from dozens of reloader suppliers. That may be cheaper than a gallon of WD40. Or find someone who reloads, who has a bullet puller. It's certainly a surer way of rendering the ammo absolutely inert.

Pull the bullets with the inertial puller, dump the powder in your yard, fire the empty shell in your pistol to pop the primer, then reseat the bullets by hand or with a few small hammer taps.

Maybe drill a couple of holes in the shells to make them readily identifiable as inert rounds.

Shadow 7D
January 7, 2012, 08:19 PM
You can drill a case if you are smart about it, first, a unrestrained (as in not chambered) will at most pop the BRASS across the room not some KABOOM.

the powder I doubt is a compressed (packed) load, so if the round is on it's side, there should be room between the case and powder, secondly, brass is non sparking, even if the steel bit is, so you would set it off via pressure/friction.

yeah, oil will render the primer inert, or a large enough hole and no powder will let the primer vent, if struck in a vice.

blarby
January 7, 2012, 08:38 PM
Anyone ever attempted pulling one of these with a bullet-hammer ?

Good luck with that.

If you've ever had to pull an overcrimped round.....imagine pulling THAT out.

OP : Sorry for all of our fellows, so greatly helpful at times.

:cuss: having read your question in your post, along with your tool limitations I would deduce you lack both the tooling and the skills to make this ammunition inert on your own.

I would consult anyone handy with reloading at your local shop, or search for gunsmiths in the same. You'll have what you are looking for in short order.

Murphy4570
January 7, 2012, 08:43 PM
You might just be best off buying a few brass cases and hammering bullets into them.

BeerSleeper
January 7, 2012, 09:01 PM
Alternatively, instead of rending the ammo inert, one could render the firearm inert.
No one ever accidentally shot anything with a gun sans firing pin.

HGM22
January 7, 2012, 09:02 PM
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot39.htm

Don't be so sure soaking in solvent/oil will deactivate the primer.

jcwit
January 7, 2012, 09:13 PM
Anyone here suggesting the OP to use a bullet puller happen to take the time to look at the picture of the factory loaded rounds?

Magoo
January 7, 2012, 09:17 PM
I would consult anyone handy with reloading at your local shop, or search for gunsmiths in the same. You'll have what you are looking for in short order.

This

Or if you tell us where in NC you are, there's likely a reloading member close enough by that could help you out.

jcwit
January 7, 2012, 09:20 PM
Tell me, does any of the reloading equipment allow one to place a crimp as shown on the factory loaded ammo, I've yet to see it.

The OP wants display ammo, as in looking orginal not reloaded!

rcmodel
January 7, 2012, 09:32 PM
a unrestrained (as in not chambered) will at most pop the BRASS across the room not some KABOOM.I would have to strongly disagree with that right there.

If one goes off while attempting to drill it, you will very likely be making an unplanned trip to the ER.

This is actually what happens when unrestrained handgun ammo blows up.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/AmmoFire4.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/AmmoFire3.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/AmmoFire2.jpg

rc

TennJed
January 7, 2012, 09:33 PM
Go to ebay and do a search for 7.62 bullet. Lost of results for 7.62 dummy round keychains for under $10. I imagine you can remove the keychain part easier than you can make your own dummy round. I did not study them too hard, but saw a couple that just had the chain running thru the lower portion of the cartridge. Just clip the chain and you are ready to go

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=7.62+bullet&_sacat=0&_odkw=7.62+ammo&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

If you are anti ebay amazon has dummy rounds for around $20

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=7.62+bullet&x=0&y=0

Der Stro
January 7, 2012, 09:42 PM
7.62 Nagant is VERY different from a standard 7.62x39/54R/etc. The bullet cannot be pulled, and they are not available in a "dummy" configuration as far as I have found.

I think I'll give drilling the case and washing with oil, if that fails then off to a machinist and see if they can work some magic.

Thanks for the insight.

BeerSleeper
January 7, 2012, 09:44 PM
Tell me, does any of the reloading equipment allow one to place a crimp as shown on the factory loaded ammo, I've yet to see it.

The OP wants display ammo, as in looking orginal not reloaded!
You can get a crimp die for whatever type of crimp you want. Taper crimp, roll crimp, factory crimp, there's dies for all of them.

An inert round, just for show, is not that critical about crimp. It doesn't need a uniform crimp for consistent ballistics, and there's no concern for the bullet coming loose from the case under recoil.

jcwit
January 7, 2012, 09:45 PM
The OP is asking for Pistol display rounds not rifle rounds.

jcwit
January 7, 2012, 09:49 PM
You can get a crimp die for whatever type of crimp you want. Taper crimp, roll crimp, factory crimp, there's dies for all of them.

An inert round, just for show, is not that critical about crimp. It doesn't need a uniform crimp for consistent ballistics, and there's no concern for the bullet coming loose from the case under recoil.

Bear, did you look at the picture shown in post #3?

It defiantly is not a taper crimp, or a roll crimp or the common factory crimp we are familar with. Show me a die thats crimps as shown in the picture on post #3.

HGM22
January 7, 2012, 09:51 PM
If you must drill the case (not suggesting you do), it might be a goo idea to do so under water to reduce friction heat, and also deactivate powder ASAP.

rcmodel
January 7, 2012, 10:02 PM
I was wondering if anyone knew a method of making a cartridge safe without reloading equipment. Mmmmmm?

Mount them live in a block of clear casting resin?

http://www.overstock.com/Crafts-Sewing/Castin-Craft-16-oz-Clear-Polyester-Casting-Resin/3665396/product.html

They might go off in a house fire.
But I can GayRon-TeeYa nobody is gonna stick them in the gun and shoot you with them!

rc

jcwit
January 7, 2012, 10:09 PM
Excellent idea as usual rcmodel!

hammerklavier
January 7, 2012, 10:41 PM
If they have unsealed primers then I'd soak them in wd-40 for a week. Then I'd take them to the range and attempt to shoot them. Any that didn't fire would be reasonably safe display rounds (would not use them as dummy/practice rounds, however).

BeerSleeper
January 8, 2012, 08:00 AM
I did not notice the bizarre overcrimp in that picture until now.

I still think you could fire it, shooting the bullet into a sufficiently large body of water (probably 18"-24" from which you can recover the bullet, and put the bullet back into the case. If you clean the firing soot off the case, it will look like new except for the firing pin mark in the primer (a small price to pay for safety).

Last winter, I shot several boxes of 9mm FMJ into snow piles. I recovered the bullets when the snow melted. They were in tact, but with rifling marks from firing them. If I had chose to put them back in brass, the rifling marks would have been covered up by the case mouth, and they would be indistinguishable from ordinary ammo.

jcwit
January 8, 2012, 12:48 PM
Bear, How would one replace that crimp on the factory ammo? It is applied by pressure from the sides of the case, sealing the bullet itself below the case mouth. Upon firing the case mouth is blown open allowing the bullet to exit the case. To make a fired case look as an unfired round for display purposes would be next to impossible if not impossible without special machinery.

BeerSleeper
January 8, 2012, 02:51 PM
I guess I didn't see it correctly. I thought it looked like a roll crimp on a bullet seated fully within the case. I googled for some other, higher resolution pictures, but didn't find a good hi-res pic of the end of the cartridge.

it looks like very extreme roll crimp, with a hint of an outward taper at the mouth. That would indeed be tough to replicate without the right die.

blarby
January 8, 2012, 02:59 PM
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1280&bih=675&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=mBMfo6UlFXY24M:&imgrefurl=http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar123.htm&docid=6wFQ9Eq5Rhm2VM&imgurl=http://www.realguns.com/images/762x38mmRammo.jpg&w=225&h=325&ei=WucJT8jEFOqfiQKUnszPCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1056&vpy=304&dur=865&hovh=260&hovw=180&tx=124&ty=213&sig=104677640033569655336&page=2&tbnh=150&tbnw=101&start=15&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:15

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1280&bih=675&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=xf014-bBz7bYaM:&imgrefurl=http://bobshellsblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/russian-762-nagant-revolver.html&docid=jTjKg4Oqvc143M&imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eqgpgBNWs5Y/SNA0kjISmAI/AAAAAAAAAio/0Fcx_fa8ykA/s400/closeup%252Bof%252BFiocchi%252B7.62%252BNagant%252Bammo.JPG&w=400&h=300&ei=WucJT8jEFOqfiQKUnszPCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=205&vpy=166&dur=356&hovh=151&hovw=212&tx=185&ty=105&sig=104677640033569655336&page=1&tbnh=151&tbnw=212&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

leadchucker
January 8, 2012, 05:01 PM
Yep. I wasn't paying attention to the photos of those rounds. Even if an inertial puller could get that bullet out, no way to ever put the crimp back in the case easily.

So, we're back to soaking in oil (or WD40) and hoping for the best, or drilling.

There are safe ways to drill. Drill a hole through a 4x4 chunk of wood, stick the round in the hole, and drill through the wood into the case from the side, staying clear of the ends of the round. Dump the powder, and cook the primer off with a propane torch.

rcmodel
January 8, 2012, 05:05 PM
Cooking off a primer with a torch will shoot your eye out if it hits you!

See the photo's in post #20 of what they do to steel furnace duct.

rc

leadchucker
January 8, 2012, 06:10 PM
The photo's in post #20 show the results of cooking off a live round full of powder. That's a far cry from just cooking a primer off. I've done this numerous times holding a shell with pliers inside a metal ammo can.

The usual common sense cautions apply. Put it inside something metal, wear eye and ear protection.

nyrifleman
January 8, 2012, 06:24 PM
http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot39.htm

Don't be so sure soaking in solvent/oil will deactivate the primer.

This. HGM beat me to it.

Jim Watson
January 8, 2012, 06:27 PM
Much ado over nothing.
I don't have children around, either; and I have never had a cartridge sneak off the shelf and crawl into a gun and fire itself.
If you want to display a round, display a round.

Derry 1946
January 8, 2012, 08:24 PM
You could super-glue the rounds to the dislay surface, whether sideways or upright. If drilling, you can use a hand drill; they still make them. Wrap the round in rubber, like an inner tube, clamp it carefully in a vice, drill by hand (non-electric). There are two types of hand drills I am familar with. One is a push drill (a cylindrical object that revolves around a central axis as you push downward). I don't recommend this one, as the pushing will tend to dislodge the round from the vice. The other is a rotary-handled gear-driven crank drill. It looks sort of like an egg beater with a drill bit. That should do the job with a bit of care. Make sure both ends of the round are aimed in safe directions, and wear eye protection. Hearing protection would be useful, in the event the round goes off. Good luck.

Cluster Bomb
January 8, 2012, 08:38 PM
Paint Snap Caps. or just use empty reloaded rounds from a different gun. not many people would know....

Alec
January 8, 2012, 09:02 PM
With that particular round, would most people even be able to tell they were fired?

I say display the empty cases and be done with it.

Shadow 7D
January 9, 2012, 01:13 PM
Put a Would Like to Buy add here or in the reloading for sale forum for some dummy rounds, and maybe someone who reloads will be willing to sell you a few.

Soapy5
January 10, 2012, 03:48 AM
I would 2nd the "soak in wd 40 for a week and test them out in the range to make sure they do not work" suggestion. Just be careful of hangfires and squibs.

HGM22
January 10, 2012, 09:31 PM
One problem I have with the soaking in penetrating oil is that even if it does render the round inert, can one be sure that its permanent? It could be just a temporary fix if the oil ends up penetrating right back out (it is volatile, after all).

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