Best long range rifle in the best long range caliber?


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BigShep85
January 7, 2012, 11:18 PM
This is a question based on experience long range being 1000 yards. What is, in your experience, the best longe range rifle in the best long range caliber? I have been rolling around the idea of getting a long range rifle and 1000 yards is what I would consider long range, As always the cheaper the better. Just thought I would get some opinions before I started narrowing down options. Thanks ahead of time.

Bolt action is probably the platform I that the above applies to.

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ShawnC
January 7, 2012, 11:36 PM
Not through experience, but the Remington 700 is pretty much the standard for long range bolt action shooting. I do have experience with a .308 and that is the round to go with.

41
January 7, 2012, 11:41 PM
I haven't done any long range shooting, but the people that I do know use 300 wsm and 7mm rem. mag.

spikedzombies
January 7, 2012, 11:50 PM
Remington 700 actioned rifle in 308

Sent vs Mytouch 4G

Justin
January 7, 2012, 11:51 PM
Most of the people I've met who shoot out to 1,000 yards or more are running either custom Remington 700 rifles, AIs or Sako TRGs.

The most common cartridge I've seen being used is .260 Remington. It's much more flat shooting that .308, and has less recoil to boot.

Outside of those people who shoot Palma, I don't know that there are many long range shooters opting for .308 as a dedicated long range round.

taliv
January 7, 2012, 11:54 PM
it depends entirely on what you're doing. if you're shooting in a type of match, then you will be restricted to the rules of that match, which will likely put upper and lower limits on your caliber, and potentially also on the weight of the rifle.

1000 yrd matches might be benchrest, high power prone or F-class, or variable distance tactical matches. There are also caliber specific matches, such as the 50bmg matches.


if you're hunting or plinking or whatever else, then that would also change your caliber and bullet selection

Justin
January 7, 2012, 11:56 PM
Taliv, you're much more of a long-range guy than I am.

What would your suggestion be for a solid 1,000 bolt rifle?

taliv
January 8, 2012, 12:03 AM
if you're looking for a cheater caliber, for paper-only (f-class) i'd probably look at a 6 Crusader.
If you need a little energy to move steel around a bit and see impacts, but are limited to 3200 fps, i'd look at 7wsm, 7saum, 260AI etc

pretty much all of those would require reloading with a lot of brass prep, custom everything, and short barrel life.

If you want a longer life caliber with still pretty good ballistics, 6.5 is probably the way to go and zak's made a pretty good case for 260rem over 6.5 creedmoor and 6.5x47L. I'm sure you've read that article, as it's prob 3-4 yrs old now, but i don't think anything's changed.


edit: if you're on a budget, look at the savage line.

snakeman
January 8, 2012, 12:14 AM
Honestly I would try to tip the scales in my favor and remove some of the fudge factor or wind drift etc. and go for something like a 300 win mag, 300 wsm, 270 wsm, or 7mm rem mag.

ms6852
January 8, 2012, 12:28 AM
Go with a 243 winchester, the market is wide open for remington 700 actions and many gunsmiths can customize your rifle.

merrill
January 8, 2012, 01:25 AM
I read an article in which the author recommended the .243WSSM over those mentioned because of the velocity and the BC of the heaviest 6mm. bullet. 3000fps for the heaviest and 3200fps for the 100-105 gr. bullet.

GuysModel94
January 8, 2012, 01:43 AM
One caliber people seem to no longer remember is the 30-06, in the right configuration it will take you out to a 1000 yards without the recoil of the magnums. Ammo is cheaper and an easy reload. Rifles are plentiful and inexpensive to purchase. IMO the recent magnum craze is totally silly. But we all know what opinions are like! LOL

rumblebee1967
January 8, 2012, 01:50 AM
I dont believe you can get an accurate answer to your question without information on what the intended purpose of the rifle is. What are you hunting if you are hunting. Rats or cape buffalo. Are you only target shooting in match then see the above answer, Need more info

Jim Watson
January 8, 2012, 02:12 AM
I understand that Danny Biggs, high end F class shooter, is running a 7mm Something for Open. Sorry, I have been out of the game for a while and don't know the chamber.

ms6852
January 8, 2012, 02:22 AM
You are right and I beleive the 30-06 will stay supersonic to about 1200 yards.

The_Next_Generation
January 8, 2012, 02:35 AM
408 Cheytac? :evil:

Sorry, had to say it. Personally, I do not like the Remington 700s as much. As accurate as they are, they seem to lack character. After shooting one a few times at my range and handling one, it didn't "do it" for me. However, my groups certainly did, and I'll probably be purchasing one when I get enough money together!

The Sako seems to be a capable platform, with some class to boot. Although I have no experience with them, the Tikkas seem well-liked as well.

Good luck!

BigShep85
January 8, 2012, 03:10 AM
I mostly enjoy the challenge and the feel of shooting targets at that range and would also enjoy the ability to go hunting in the fall, if the desire struck me, thanks for all the feedback so far very helpful and informative, I love this forum.

Hk Paul
January 8, 2012, 03:37 AM
No one mentioned .338 Lapua Magnum?

wanderinwalker
January 8, 2012, 10:22 AM
No one mentioned .338 Lapua Magnum?
Because depending on the game, it's not necessary or desirable, and maybe even not allowed by the rules. (I'm thinking the NRA "no muzzlebrakes" rule would effectively eliminate the Lapua from any prone matches.)

No personal experience to 1000 yards, but of the belly shooters I know, many run something like a .260 type chamber, a few run .308s (Palma shooters) and I know of at least one gentleman with a .284 Winchester. I've only seen maybe 2 or 3 "Magnums" show up on the line at 600 yard matches. One was a fellow running a stock Ruger 77 in .300 Winchester Magnum for his first try at 600. One was some kind of standard length 7mm I think. And once was a .30-338. Most of the local guys I know have custom Remington 700s or Savages.

AirForceShooter
January 8, 2012, 10:30 AM
I'm an old guy.
It's the Remmy 700 in 30-06.

Solid as a rock gun that can be modified anyway you please and a round you can load to almosy any configuration.

AFS

303tom
January 8, 2012, 10:44 AM
Barrett in .50 BMG...........

DRYHUMOR
January 8, 2012, 11:22 AM
I recently re barreled one of my M70s in 260 Remington. BC on the 6.5 is quite good.

A little research on the caliber, and it didn't take much to convince me which way to go. The hardest decison (cheapest) was to take a nearly new (New Haven) 308, and pull the barrel off.

I'm running a M70 Stealth, with a 27" Lilja 3 groove, 1:8 twist. For me, a 300 to 600 yd rifle. Something to mostly shoot paper. And, the occasional deer.

C-grunt
January 8, 2012, 11:50 AM
Remington 700 R5 in 308 shooting 175grn SMKs is a fantastic starting point. Lots of information out there for the 308 and its easy to find and not terribly expensive.

taliv
January 8, 2012, 11:55 AM
308 using 175g smk is a great caliber to learn on.

Beak50
January 8, 2012, 12:14 PM
If it was possible for me I would get a .338 lapua or .50 cal sniper set-up for shooting that far.Just think of the $ it would take.I'm no sniper but I would say for a .30 cal that is awful far away not that it can't be done but...you never know.

Art Eatman
January 8, 2012, 12:38 PM
A couple of years back we had two guys backing-and-forthing over their long-range rigs. They were using 30" barrels for their '06s, with 230-grain VLD bullets. Sub-MOA at 1,200 and 1,300 yards. There was enough detail in their posts such that it sounded like they knew what they were talking about...

esheato
January 8, 2012, 12:43 PM
A 223 will go that far with the right bullets (77gr), but something in the 243-308 size class (243, 260, 7mm-08, 308) is more than enough for target and punching paper.

And if you're on the cheap, Savage is perfect.

APIT50
January 8, 2012, 01:39 PM
I run a savage 260 ackley with 26" bbl 140 amax or 139 lapua and they get to 1000 no prob less drop and drift than 308

mnhntr
January 8, 2012, 01:42 PM
I guess if you want to have to take a new gun to a smith and have its flaws fixed then a 700 would be it.Or you could buy a Savage and be done without a trip to the smith. The new LRP in .260 remington is what I chose but if I did not reload it would have been a .308 in the same rifle.

Fullboar1
January 8, 2012, 02:19 PM
For Tactical/Practical, F Class (Open) you cant beat 260Rem, 6.5-284, 6.5Creedmore ect and some like the 7mm's like 284Win, 7RemMag, 7WSM, 7SAUM ect and some even shoot the 6mm's like 6XC, 6Dasher, 6BRX, 6BR and even the 243Win(AI). The reason people have moved away from the big 30cals is even the 260Rem with the high BC bullets will give you around the same (or a little better) trajectory and winddrift then a 300WinMag (using the most popular longrange bullets), burning under half the powder and a whole lot less recoil (alot of the 7mm's will have even less drop and winddrift but again for more recoil).

As far as rifles go if you have the money you cant beat the Accuracy Internationals, Sako TRG's ect but for less you can get a good custom made rifle or even the Savage longrange factory rifles are pretty good.

Jim Watson
January 8, 2012, 02:46 PM
I figure if you get one of the better Remington or Savage rifles in a reasonably suitable caliber like .308, by the time you have worn out the factory barrel, you will know better what to have done to make it a big time accuracy rifle.

It won't take as long as you think from reading the Internet. I saw a guy try to stretch a barrel from 4600 to 4700 rounds at 1000 yards. It didn't make it, spreading off the six foot backer before the day was out. You will get better barrel life on a field course with few shots spaced down a trail, but Long Range target shooting with 20 shot plus sighters in 30 minutes gets the gun hot. A good barrel will still keep hitting, but it is taking a lot of wear.

Jasper86
January 8, 2012, 03:49 PM
A 223 will go that far with the right bullets (77gr), but something in the 243-308 size class (243, 260, 7mm-08, 308) is more than enough for target and punching paper.

And if you're on the cheap, Savage is perfect.



I don't know what you're smoking, but a 77gr bullet might *BARELY* shoot minute of mattress @ 1000yards....and thats if there's virtually NO wind.

for 1k and a .223, you're talking a MINIMUM of an 80gr hybrid/VLD type bullet (like a sierra 80SMK, or Berger 80.5fullbore, berger 82HPBT, etc)....and if you have any hope of them staying supersonic (at least at sea level), they're leaving the barrel @ 2900fps (which isn't possible *safely* with anything shy of 26"). I'll dig this post up mid summer and update with my results...i'll be in Colonie NY after Perry this year to shoot 1k, and I'm gonna give it a go with some Berger 90's in a 1:6.5twist kreiger in my service rifle for one of my strings. i'm not optimistic about it though.


why is it that everyone looks @ 1000yards as some sort of monster goal? If you wanna shoot 1k, and don't have a proper rifle, hang around at the local rifle clubs. gun folks (as a rule) LOVE to show off their toys, and share their knowledge...and knowledge is a good thing to have when you're shooting @ extended ranges. don't know a come up? guess wrong? could send a bullet into the dirt and waste ammo trying to find a trace....or worse, lose it right over a berm and into a populated area.


you want a cheap, easy, (probably) MOA or better 1000yard gun. it REALLY doesn't exist. if you want something that'll reliably make good hits @ 1k (assuming you're doing your part), is isn't gonna be "cheap", and the ammunition (should be reloads) is going to take some real care to get right (my LR .308 ammo (Sierra 2156, 155gr) for my palma gun leaves the barrel right @ 3000FPS, ES of 6, SD of 3. that was "acceptable" for 1k. SD's of 10+fps? ES's of 20+? you're gonna see some significant vertical stringing on target.


evaluate exactly what you want for a rifle...then build it. you're better off taking your time and doing it right than trying to cheap out and end up with someone that's only going to frustrate you.

Longrifle2506
January 8, 2012, 04:06 PM
Marine Sniper Carlos Hathcock made many long range shots with a Model 70 Winchester in 30-06; including a 700-yard head shot(if I remember correctly, read the book years ago). But the 300 Win Mag might be the ultimate 30 caliber long range cartridge. I would prefer 30 caliber or even the 338 Lapua vs. 50 cal.; As I'm not a fan of recoil.

Jasper86
January 8, 2012, 04:08 PM
...your favorite LR cartridge is a 300win mag (a barrel burner, you'll see usable accuracy for 1000-1200 rounds on average)....and you DONT like recoil? have you ever shot a 300win mag with full house loads?

Howard Roark
January 8, 2012, 04:22 PM
6mmBR or 6mmDasher and learn how to read wind...

oldpapps
January 8, 2012, 04:44 PM
I'm far from being an expert but here are my views.

Action: Stiff and very solid. Depending upon the maker, they will come in 'short', 'standard' or 'long'. Short is stiffer, long can spring about. Shorter actions limit the overall length of you round, cutting both bullet length/weight and powder capacities. It is a no win situation that requires compromise.

Barrel: The longest you can stomach, longer will give greater velocities and at 1000 yards, you will need all you can get.

Bullets: The longest will have better ballistic coefficient and loose less velocity. The heavier will maintain momentum for the long time in flight. Too heavy of bullet and you can't get the needed velocities and end up getting a 'rainbow' trajectory.

Casings: Large case capacities to hold more powder to give the greatest velocities.


So you want big cases, holding long heavy bullets, to travel down a long barrel for the greatest velocities, mounted to a very stiff action. With this, you bed the action solidly into a solid stock (hard wood, plastic, metal or combination of all). Add to this what ever sighting system you desire.

Load your own ammunition as precisely and consistent as humanly possible. Practice, practice and more practice. A thousand yards is a long way.

I haven't said anything about calibers, action makes, barrel makes, twist, the reloading/case prep process, loading components.

My advice is to learn from the experts. Find out where they shoot, go to the competitions and shoots. They are listed in each months American Rifleman and American Hunter magazines. If you are not a member, now is the time.

chad1043
January 8, 2012, 04:53 PM
I don't shoot 1000 yard shots, what kinda target do you guys use? Just wondering what kind of accuracy can you expect? 6 inches?

helotaxi
January 8, 2012, 05:01 PM
Honestly I would try to tip the scales in my favor and remove some of the fudge factor or wind drift etc. and go for something like a 300 win mag, 300 wsm, 270 wsm, or 7mm rem mag.The .30cals are going to be owned by the 6.5mms which are beholden to the 7mms. The 7mm WSM is the best thing going in a short action. The reason is the bullet. Weight isn't important, ballisitic coefficient is, but weight can indirectly affect BC. With the .30's by the time you get to a bullet with a BC on par with the basic 6.5 and 7mm offerings, it is so heavy that you can't send it very fast within case capacity and recoil limitations and the 6.5s and 7s still have higher BC bullets available.

As long as the load velocities are fairly consistent, wind drift is the important consideration at long range, not drop. The two ways to minimize wind drift are higher velocity or higher BC. The 6.5 and 7mm cartridges walk all over the .30s in both categories.

Also, don't forget about the "lowly" .243 Win. With a fast twist barrel, it will shoot right with the .260 to 1000yds with even less recoil. The nice thing about the .243 is that brass in widely available and inexpensive and bullets are cheap. The rifle is a one-time expense. Doesn't matter if the rifle itself is relatively inexpensive if the thing costs a lot to shoot or you can't find ammo or components.

Really the only thing the .30s have going for them is ammo availability. You can get .308, .30-06 and .300WinMag ammo everywhere though most of it is hunting ammo.

If you look at competition results, for comps where the competitor has a choice in caliber, the top competitors certainly are not using anything in .30cal. The .260 has quite the following in tactical circles because the high BC bullets can be loaded to fit in an AI mag and are light enough to still have velocity potential. The super slick 7mm bullets are too long and too heavy to work well in the 7mm-08. Step up to the WSM and things change.

41
January 8, 2012, 05:04 PM
I don't shoot long range either, but MOA at 1000 yards is around 10 inches, so I think that would be really good shooting at 1000 yards

helotaxi
January 8, 2012, 05:26 PM
Bullets: The longest will have better ballistic coefficient and loose less velocity. The heavier will maintain momentum for the long time in flight. Too heavy of bullet and you can't get the needed velocities and end up getting a 'rainbow' trajectory.Heavy has nothing to do with it. Bullet weight is not needed to calculate either wind drift or bullet drop. Ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity are the only numbers needed. A "rainbow" trajectory isn't a problem by itself since drop is completely predictable. The problem lies in the wind because it can't be completely predicted and isn't consistent. You want to minimize wind effects and a high BC bullet is the easiest step toward that goal. More velocity is the second part of the equation and there is only so much you can do there. The 6.5 and 7mm bullets strike a nice balance of relatively light weight for more velocity while boasting the highest BCs available without stepping up to a cannon of a round (.338 .408 .510) that require special everything and cost a couple of $$ every time you pull the trigger.

helotaxi
January 8, 2012, 05:27 PM
I don't shoot long range either, but MOA at 1000 yards is around 10 inches, so I think that would be really good shooting at 1000 yardsThat is really good shooting, but at higher levels of competition it won't get it done.

Jim Watson
January 8, 2012, 05:43 PM
The ten ring of the F class target is one MOA, therefore 10" at 1000 yards.
Some of the top F-open guys have cleaned it.
The X ring is half MOA and I don't think anybody has shot 200 20X at least not at Long Range.

Highpower targets are twice as big. Can you shoot into 2 MOA with only a sling and iron sights? It can be done.

helotaxi
January 8, 2012, 06:15 PM
I think that the record is 200-18x @1k. The benchrest record @ 1k is remarkably small but I don't remember exactly what.

Mccarty
January 8, 2012, 06:30 PM
You will never get anything unanimous for an answer to this question, but you can't go wrong with any of the hotter 6mm's or the 6.5 or 7mm variants. All offer excellent bullet choices well capable of supersonic flight out to 1000 yards.

It would also be difficult to argue with a Palma shooter as they achieve amazing accuracy through the right selection of bullets (155 gr), the right powders and barrels.

mnhntr
January 8, 2012, 06:33 PM
Honestly I would try to tip the scales in my favor and remove some of the fudge factor or wind drift etc. and go for something like a 300 win mag, 300 wsm, 270 wsm, or 7mm rem mag.
Actually I can load my .260 to be as capable as a 300 win or wsm at 1k yds and with a lot less recoil.

esheato
January 8, 2012, 07:38 PM
I don't know what you're smoking, but a 77gr bullet might *BARELY* shoot minute of mattress @ 1000yards....and thats if there's virtually NO wind.

Nevermind....ain't worth the effort.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
January 8, 2012, 08:06 PM
I'm no sniper but I would say for a .30 cal that is awful far away not that it can't be done but...you never know.

Been done for over a century now. 30.06 has made countless kills on the battlefields out to and past 1000yds and the same for the .308. 1000 yards is a poke, but it's well within the "killing" range of most .30cal cartridges. Now I wouldn't suggest ANYONE shoot that far on live game animals because of wounding. Just too far to factor in animal movements right at trigger break. But for target, 1000 yards is, as I said, well within the 30.06 and .308 capabilities and has been for many years. There are better options such as the .260 because of the better ballistic coefficient of the bullets and on the other side of the spectrum is the .338lap for it's sheer power. Lots of options out there but you would be hard pressed to have a highly accurate firearm out to 1000 yards that would be suitable for hunting as well because of the sheer weight. Your typical long range target rifle is anywhere from 20 pounds to 45 pounds. Not something I would wish to carry while hunting.

Pete D.
January 8, 2012, 08:14 PM
"Best" is a dangerous and difficult word.
Look at what the winners are shooting.
Check out the 1000 yard benchrest records. Google is your friend. A quick check shows an older record with a 6mm wildcat at 6.125" inch 1000 yard group.
Recent 600 yard info - a 1.7" group at 600 yards with a 6mm BR.
1000 yards - how about 5.358" with a 6.5X284?
See http://www.6mmbr.com/1000ydpg01.html

mljdeckard
January 8, 2012, 08:30 PM
What used to be long-range is now becoming medium range, particularly with competition shooters and snipers. 1000 yards used to be a long shot. With new cartridges and dedicated rifles like the Chey-Tac and .338 Lapua, the .416 Barrett, etc, they have really stretched the limits.

For conventional rifles in conventional cartridges, It would kind of depend. Am I mostly shooting out to 800 or so yards, with the OCCASIONAL 1000 yard shot? I would keep a .308 for that. For REGULAR 1000+ yard shots, honestly I would be using something with 'Magnum" in the title. A Remington 700 is a very available, customizable platform to work from, but I am in the process of building an AR-10, with a service-type upper in .308, and I'll build a heavy distance-shooting upper in .260 Remington, since I have also started handloading.

Stealth01
January 8, 2012, 08:35 PM
Thought about the 260 Remington...

http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m512/kengallagher/bba1f928.jpg

Jasper86
January 8, 2012, 08:37 PM
Nevermind....ain't worth the effort.
oh, feel free to go on, I'd LOVE to hear your vast knowledge on the subject.

for whatever it's worth, i end up blowing through ~ 3500-4000 sierra 77's a season, and I'd say I'm a fair shot (High Master isn't exactly a cakewalk shooting a service rifle @ full distance across the course).

77's will NOT shoot accurately @ 1000yds. at 800 they may hold their own....but they lack the ballistics to stay stable @ 1k.


let me guess, you're using Sierra's Infinity software, and loading data with G1 tables? well hell at that rate my 80's ought to shoot subMOA out to 1200 yards (which...sadly, they don't)

if 77's were worth a damn @ 1k, don't ya think the US army marksmanship unit would still be running a .223 for long range? (they're not, they ramped 80-90gr bullets as fast as they'd go, then gave up and moved to the M110 variants in .308.)

stsimons
January 8, 2012, 08:48 PM
Hmmm. ..too many variables at the 800yd to 1K range. Taking the time to develop a "relationship" with your gun and personally learning the little idiosyncrasies your rifle is worth the last .25 MOA it takes to distinguish the good from the great. The BEST long range rifle or caliber does not really exist. Unfortunately guns are like women, a mystery at best and every once in a while one of us gets lucky...

Beak50
January 8, 2012, 09:27 PM
How many people are actually capable enough to shoot 1,000 yrd's with a standard 308 or 06 and get sub moa all the time?alot of training and practice just for starter's.I wish I could have went to sniper school in the Army.I've read all about Carlos Hathcock ect..and know about the record's.But I think some people act like it's nothing to shoot like that when there are so many variable's like wind,bullet drop your gun would have to be like just another part of your body to shoot like them guy's.I don't even know of a range around me that is longer than 500 yrds.

pdd614
January 8, 2012, 09:38 PM
Jasper, I'm not sure where the hostility towards a 223 comes from, but my real world experiences differ from yours. Now I don't shoot shoot a 223 for ranges past 6-700 yards, but I have shot with a few folks that do. They don't seem to have too much trouble keeping the 75 amax on a 20 inch piece of steel at 1k. They weren't exactly wearing out the clay pigeons at that range. But then again, neither do I. Hardly minute of mattress or 80-90 grains.
For myself, I mainly shoot the 6.5x47. It's out for a new barrel after a bit over 4k rounds, or I have switched to a savage 30-06 until the x47 gets back.

Now that I think about it, having a 223 bolt action set up for long range ukd shooting could be of some value as a backup rifle. I could buy 1000 pieces of brass for about the same price as only 100 pieces of the x47. Half the powder consumption of my 6.5, and the 75 & 80 grain amax's are fairly cheap considering. Not a bad recipe for alot of rounds downrange.

wanderinwalker
January 8, 2012, 09:58 PM
for whatever it's worth, i end up blowing through ~ 3500-4000 sierra 77's a season, and I'd say I'm a fair shot (High Master isn't exactly a cakewalk shooting a service rifle @ full distance across the course).


I have to shoot HOW much to hang with you? :eek:

Anyway, back to the OP, whatever you do, do yourself a favor and do NOT get anything with Magnum in the name. Go hang out on the line and ASK QUESTIONS. Jasper's right, one thing rifle shooters absolutely love to do is talk gear and show it off. Find out what you want to do; steel, NRA prone, F-class, benchrest. It wouldn't do much good to get a nice Palma rifle only to find your local opportunities are benchrest and tactical shoots.

(And when you're ready, have a gunsmith like Larry Racine work some magic on a Savage. Or buy a Tubb 2K...)

Jasper86
January 8, 2012, 10:14 PM
Jasper, I'm not sure where the hostility towards a 223 comes from, but my real world experiences differ from yours. Now I don't shoot shoot a 223 for ranges past 6-700 yards, but I have shot with a few folks that do. They don't seem to have too much trouble keeping the 75 amax on a 20 inch piece of steel at 1k. They weren't exactly wearing out the clay pigeons at that range. But then again, neither do I. Hardly minute of mattress or 80-90 grains.
For myself, I mainly shoot the 6.5x47. It's out for a new barrel after a bit over 4k rounds, or I have switched to a savage 30-06 until the x47 gets back.

Now that I think about it, having a 223 bolt action set up for long range ukd shooting could be of some value as a backup rifle. I could buy 1000 pieces of brass for about the same price as only 100 pieces of the x47. Half the powder consumption of my 6.5, and the 75 & 80 grain amax's are fairly cheap considering. Not a bad recipe for alot of rounds downrange.


no hostility at all towards .223...i love the damned round. I just shoot a LOT of it, and am intimately familiar with whats its capable of. I load my match ammo with the best components I can afford (although the best SDs I've ever gotten were with Wolf SRM223's)...Lapua match brass, Sierra 77s and 80s (although Ive been dabbling with the berger 82BTs and I'm going to try the Berger 90HPBTs when my new 6.5twist kreiger shows up **should be any day now**

a 77gr matchking in real world settings will go subsonic somewhere between 850-925 yards. can you still hit a big chunk of steel? sure. depends how soon they go subsonic (if they maintain rotational stability, they can, and usually will stabilize after passing through that transonic stage...although it takes a bit of distance for them to re-stabilize). I don't measure usable accuracy as off and on hits on steel at a given distance. I shoot for 10's. if the ammo can't hold the 10ring (assuming I'm doing my part), I have no use for it. That's why I have a Tubb2K with a 1:13 kreiger for a palma/LR gun (saving for a second one in 6xc for non-palma LR matches)



keep up with me? hell, wait for me to shoot a few 8's on my feet. I didn't make HM with my offhand scores :bang head: ... want to improve? trigger time with a good coach is KEY

and Larry Racine is a fantastic smith. he shoots with us all summer (my home club(s) are within driving range of his neck of the woods.

wanderinwalker
January 8, 2012, 10:28 PM
keep up with me? hell, wait for me to shoot a few 8's on my feet. I didn't make HM with my offhand scores :bang head: ... want to improve? trigger time with a good coach is KEY

and Larry Racine is a fantastic smith. he shoots with us all summer (my home club(s) are within driving range of his neck of the woods.

Heh, Larry's closer than that to me!

(And I know I can hang on my feet, I've seen you shoot offhand! ;) It's slow prone that scares me...)

gunner69
January 8, 2012, 10:44 PM
Well you guys are close, it is in 6.5mm (.260 cal is 6.5mm by the way) it's the Norma 6.5x284. Google that and sit back for a read......

I took a Remington 700 in 6.5x55 Swede and had my gunsmith rechamber it to 6.5x284. One flat shooting fine long range rifle. Capable of doing long range target work, counter sniper, or big game rifle. Read about it grasshopper..... you will learn.

If you are going with an AR platform don't rule out the 6.5 Grendle either. It too will reach out and touch something for you.

slash415
January 8, 2012, 11:16 PM
There are a lot of bolt action guns that will reach out that far, there really isn't a "best" gun for a 1000 yards. It depends on what you want, do you want a gun that will punch through an engine block at 1000 yards? Then go with a .50 bmg. Or do you want something with less boom and alot easier to shoot, a 300 wsm is a great gun for 1000 yards. So as you can see there isn't really a best gun for 1000 yards. Its all about preference and what each shooter is looking for. Personally I would use a .300 RUM which is more then adequate for the job. It provides awesome power and preformance, but is less expensive and more fun to shoot then a .50. Again that is just what I would use. Now unless your rolling in money, I am sure ammo is going to be a big factor (and of course the gun). With the right setup, a .308 will have no problem at 1000 yards. Of course you cant just go out and buy a Savage Axis for 250 at walmart and expect to be splitting coke cans at that range. I would suggest doing some research and have a local gun smith build you a gun (if you went with a .308.) Of course that way your looking at a gun thats over 1000$. But if it's built right you will quickly save loads of money on ammo that is less expensive then more powerful calibres. If you want to go a little bit bigger, there is the 30/06, 7rem mag .300 wsm.....These rounds won't require quite as an expensive gun, but the ammo is much more then a .308....Do you plan on reloading??? That will make a big difference in your decision and open up alot more possibilities.........Hope this helps.....I could write a lot more, but ill see what you have to say first

BrocLuno
January 8, 2012, 11:45 PM
OK guys, you are WAY out of my league here, but the subject is great fun to think about. I happen to have a pile of old Arisaka's in my shop from one source or another (trading, repairs not wanted, Pop's WW-II bring back, etc.) and I've become intrigued with what the Japanese were doing way back around WW-I

Look at the bullet they were building for the Type 38 and Type 44 rifles. Moderate case with a L-O-N-G bullet. All up, it's listed as 6.5x50. That seems to me to be a pretty good combination?

I'm sure their powders were more primitive than what we have today, but they were teaching volley fire, so their guys has to be able to shoot beyond 1000m. I know, it was not for accuracy like we are talking here. But, I bet they looked at trans-sonic performance at volley ranges when they were designing the round.

It's just food for thought, but it gives me something to think about at odd times.

I have an old beater Type 38 that I'm doing a home made "straight jacket" barrel sleeve on (I'm trying an aluminum sleeve on this one). I'll scope it and see what it can do? The barrel is not pristine, but it's serviceable, and the chambers are known to be oversized so it will not be a match winner. But it will be a cheap experiment and fun to tune and tweak :D

This is a photo of an actual WW-II 6.5mm Jap round:

gunner69
January 9, 2012, 01:31 AM
Go to http://www.cheaperthandirt.com and search the caliber you are considering. By the way, the Savage 110 might not cost as much as some of the choices but they are a bargain.

Jim Watson
January 9, 2012, 11:47 AM
I'm going to try the Berger 90HPBTs when my new 6.5twist kreiger shows up **should be any day now**

I've GOT a 6.5 twist Krieger and it shoots just fine with 90 gr Bergers or JLKs.
The guys in the 1000 yard pits really hate looking for .22 holes, though, especially when you are not a HM and tend to scatter them around a bit. It is just about right for a 600 yard midrange gun, though.

I could not push a 90 gr SMK or 75 gr Amax fast enough to stay supersonic at 1000 without breaking up. I had one string that was nothing but 10s Xs and misses. The guy scoring said "I am seeing silver streaks in the air before every shot they mark as a miss."
Load them to where they stay in one piece and they do well at 600.

War Eagle
January 9, 2012, 04:24 PM
I shoot this Rem 700 5R (http://gunzoo.com/vault/Mac/75) 1,000-yds often. Handloaded ammo, ballistic app on my phone, Kestrel wind gauge, and a whole lot of experience and I shoot lights out.

The rifle cost was reasonable enough. The optic is what eats up your budget. But, at 1,000-yds, you're gonna want the best glass you can afford.


...

lencac
January 9, 2012, 06:37 PM
Yep, 30.06 will and can do that job. I have my Gruning Precision in 27" barrel in 30.06 moving a 190 gr Sierra MK at 2900 fps.
But for those "special" occasions I will pull out The Beast, 338 Lapua Magnum moving 300gr@2800fps/250gr@3000fps/225gr@3250fps :eek:

The main difference in the two is you're not chambering a $5 bill every time you yank on the bang switch on the 30.06 :o

Fullboar1
January 9, 2012, 08:24 PM
Yep the Scots beat the US F/TR team in July and one of the better Scot shooters was using a 223 and won a few rounds at 1000 yards, so they do win comps. I number of Lady shooters at one of the clubs I go to use 223's with 80 grain bullets (shooting F Class) and they do quite well.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/07/scots-top-american-f-tr-all-stars-at-blair-atholl-on-4th-of-july/

As for winning in a National and International comp with a "Standard out of the box rifle" I have never seen that "VERIFIED" by anyone other then what the Savage Media department stated and was copied by a number of websites and magazines (I have been around F Class long enough to see what guns it takes to win at a high level and no I dont drink the Cool Aid).

jimniowa
January 9, 2012, 08:31 PM
I had a 6.5-284 built for me on a Rem 700 vls on a short action with a Krieger 1:8 twist 28" heavy barrel. With scope it weighs about 17.5 lbs. It was made for 1000 yd shooting. The 6.5-284 is a top choice for long range. I use Lapua brass Sierra 140 g match bullets Imr 4831 and RL 22 powders at under 3000 ft/sec. I recently bought a Savage Long Range Hunter in 6.5-284 with a 1:8 twist with long action. I use Norma brass with it for hunting. The 6.5-284 ammo can be had at about $47/20 so its for a reloaders for now if you do serious shooting. That was my reason for the buy of the Savage as I had the dies, compents and bullets. Check it out.
Jim

gunner69
January 9, 2012, 11:31 PM
Yeah, I agree the 6.5x284 is pretty much a reloaders dream, a non-reloaders drain on the pocket book. So, why don't you enjoy reloading? This caliber is a great long range, sniper/counter sniper, AND capable hunting round. Plus it doesn't beat hell out of you when you squeeze one off.

I was shooting at Fort Benning a couple years ago, and all my friend on the spotting scope could say was "Holy ****......" By the way he ran out and bought a Savage 110, in 6.5x284, and is a shooter to be reconned with.

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