a holster for every gun


PDA






KazPGates
January 9, 2012, 04:35 AM
I believe it needs to be looked into, that there should be an efa holster for every handgun in the world, for those not familiar, this is the holster spetsnaz used with the makarov, it is a clam shell over the slide, when you put the gun in, it cannot be drawn straight back up, but rather it must be pushed through chambering a round. solving what would seem to be quit the dillema which would be carrying round in the chamber or not. not, if chambering and drawing are one in the same and with actually more haste.

If you enjoyed reading about "a holster for every gun" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
bdb benzino
January 9, 2012, 05:54 AM
Too many people carry with one in the chamber for this to become poular. I love my Makarovs, and have also seen those holsters, but I would rather have one in the pipe and carry IWB so I don't loose a round of capacity. YMMV.
Neat history about Makarovs and those holsters though!

AEA
January 9, 2012, 06:26 AM
I do not agree with a solution to a problem that does not exist.

CraigC
January 9, 2012, 09:21 AM
Nor would I want to rely on such a contraption to 'make' my pistol ready for whatever situation compelled me to draw it.

Sam1911
January 9, 2012, 09:32 AM
Well, what are you proposing? Do you have any idea who might make these?

I'd be real hesitant to try to adopt something so critically important, and which would have to be completely intuitive to use, but which has to operate exactly counter to every other holster I use.

Even if I ditched all my autoloader holsters for this style, it would still work backward from my revolver holsters, which means I'd have to process the conscious decision whether to push hard down, or pull up when I establish my firing grip.

And, of course it would still be opposite to my competition holsters. Pushing down to chamber a round on every draw is going to be slower than a traditional draw, so pistol competitors won't adopt it. So, again, I'm stuck with having to remember in the instant of need which way I'm supposed to go, or I end up presenting a gun with an empty chamber!

Still, I'm sure there is a holster maker out there who'd be willing to build them if you could front the money for a test run. Obviously, as others said, this is a solution to a problem that 99.9% of the gun-carriers in the world are (at best) unaware they have, so you're going to need to find a way to build interest and momentum or there won't be many sales.

armoredman
January 9, 2012, 09:33 AM
Good grief, no, I am quite happy with my High Noon setup,

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/High%20noon%20Gear/DownUndertwomonthslater.jpg

I would have nothing to do with such a contraption.

PabloJ
January 9, 2012, 01:10 PM
I believe it needs to be looked into, that there should be an efa holster for every handgun in the world, for those not familiar, this is the holster spetsnaz used with the makarov, it is a clam shell over the slide, when you put the gun in, it cannot be drawn straight back up, but rather it must be pushed through chambering a round. solving what would seem to be quit the dillema which would be carrying round in the chamber or not. not, if chambering and drawing are one in the same and with actually more haste.
BHP & 1911 guys need something like that.

KazPGates
January 10, 2012, 06:13 AM
haha, to each his own, it would be more a duty holster, not so much conceal carry, unless you live somewhere cold and want the should holster style, I meet those requirements, it was actually supposed to be much faster and instinctual than traditional holster styles, no safety flipping no up, rotate, join, extend, just draw. I don't think it has to eclipse regular holsters as a whole, but there is a company that gets by on making them for maks alone.
it seems most Israeli carry people are family men who are most commonly packing while loved ones are present, if an accidental discharge could magically manifest itself, my brother seems to prefer it not be into his daughter or wife who are pretty commonly in target acquired status of the business end of his cz 75 sp01 tac... maybe it will never happen, maybe it couldn't, but, loved ones are in line a whole lot more than badies, at least until the zombie Apocalypse right? anywho, there are plenty of Israeli carry folks such as my self out there for a small company to get by.
I would by one for every gun I ever own that is applicable.
p.s. plenty of the vendors at the last two gun shows I attended, actually said they already did carry con 3 or said they would if they had the holster.
just a thought really, thought,"maybe if I get the thought out there, the right person will here me"

Sam1911
January 10, 2012, 09:00 AM
haha, to each his own, it would be more a duty holster
What if you short-stroke it and cause a malfunction? How much training does it take, compared with how much the average police officer actually gets?

unless you live somewhere cold and want the should holster style,A shoulder holster version? So you have to reach across your body and then push down? Or to the rear (depending on orientation)? That's working totally against your major muscle groups. A nightmare of a draw, seems to me.

it was actually supposed to be much faster and instinctual than traditional holster styles, no safety flipping no up, rotate, join, extend, just draw. Not quite. Push down, hard, then bring gun up to present. So you're putting muscle and momentum into going the "wrong" way, then recovering from that motion and reversing direction to present the gun.

I'd like to see a head-to-head comparison to see how whatever benefits there might be balance against the loss of speed, and having to be one round short of the usual total capacity in the gun.

it seems most Israeli carry people are family men who are most commonly packing while loved ones are present, if an accidental discharge could magically manifest itself, my brother seems to prefer it not be into his daughter or wife who are pretty commonly in target acquired status of the business end of his cz 75 sp01 tacmaybe it will never happen, maybe it couldn't, but, loved ones are in line a whole lot more than badies
Wait, your brother points his gun at his kids? I don't think I understand what you're saying here. WHY would he have an ND, and why would his kids be in the way of his muzzle? That's not a holster problem...

But, yes. There's lots of folks in the world looking for something new. If you made it, someone will buy it. No question about that.

JohnBT
January 10, 2012, 09:20 AM
"BHP & 1911 guys need something like that."

No we don't.

The topic is a non-starter about a non-issue.

AEA
January 10, 2012, 09:26 AM
BHP & 1911 guys need something like that.

JohnBT.......you beat me to it......
NO WE DON'T

F-111 John
January 10, 2012, 09:52 AM
Here's a YouTube of the holster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5H2GYOhKtM

Two questions: What do you do for IWB carry, and can you withdraw the pistol without cocking and unlocking?

Zundfolge
January 10, 2012, 07:08 PM
I'll just stick with my load chamber, cocked hammer and locked safety in a leather IWB thankyouverymuch (MUCH safer than carrying with an empty chamber ... 'cause if you ever need your gun you're going to need it RIGHT NOW!).

http://www.macvanpublishing.com/mike/Lobo/Lobo_5.jpg

Fancy holsters and other akward methods of carry are no substitute for just following the 4 rules.

it was actually supposed to be much faster and instinctual than traditional holster styles, no safety flipping no up, rotate, join, extend, just draw.
If that were true than the IDPA/IPSC guys would be using them. How can it possibly be faster than pulling a loaded and chambered pistol out of the holster while swiping the safety off with your thumb?

Just keep in mind that the Russian holster posted is the product of know-nothing bureaucrats making silly rules (no carry of chambered weapons) and not from good sense and real world experience. Same thing goes for the draw and rack technique the Israelis use.

Zach S
January 10, 2012, 09:33 PM
BHP & 1911 guys need something like that.
No we don't.

Even if I had some use for it, I'm tall and thin, so I carry IWB... I don't think that holster would work out to well. And I'm accustomed to drawing my handgun from the top of my holster. Having one that required me to push it through would work as well as the automakers moving the controls around on me, like Norton did on their bikes.

armoredman
January 10, 2012, 09:45 PM
Watched the video, still pretty sure that's not any answer I'm ever looking for, but if you like it, go for it, amigo.

bigfatdave
January 10, 2012, 11:30 PM
no
absolutely not

1- if your gun is not safe in a proper holster, IT ISN'T SAFE AT ALL
2- what do you do for re-holstering? If I'm forced to draw and fire, and then need to holster my weapon, it will have a round in the chamber, I'm nopt going to drop the mag, rack the slide, discard a round, and then re-insert mag and re-holster ... a holster needs to work with any given state of the weapon being holstered
3- why would I want to shove the gun the wrong way?
4- it doesn't look particularly compact
5- it would require an even stiffer gun belt, or a painfully tight one, I don't have a duty belt, my gun hangs off of the same thing that keeps my pants up
6- it wouldn't match the thousands of repetitions I've drilled in for the more economical right-direction draw stroke, fighting muscle memory as well as being deliberately slower
7- how does it deal with malfunctions and wear/tear?
8- will it work every time?
9- will it work after a few thousand practice uses?
===

Leave these bureaucrat inventions to the people who have to listen to the idiot bureaucrats ... if you don't HAVE to carry empty-chamber, just carry with a round in the pipe ... don't make un-needed gadgets to make a gun "almost chambered".
I'm reminded of a holster that kept the slide locked open, waiting to slam shut and chamber the first round ... it was a silly and unwise way to carry, only existing to let people carry in a silly way.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 10, 2012, 11:50 PM
I would only want one for a Makarov simply for the novelty but not for serious work. Looks like it could be quite the show and tell piece.

I'm reminded of a holster that kept the slide locked open, waiting to slam shut and chamber the first round ... it was a silly and unwise way to carry, only existing to let people carry in a silly way.

Do you happen to remember what it was called? I would like to see that holster.

bigfatdave
January 11, 2012, 11:53 AM
nope, might have been a one-off design

I remember that it had a little lug to keep the slide latch lever forced up and was supposed to let you trip it down yourself.
Don't remember gun model (Glock?) for sure, I'm pretty sure it was a paddle-type that had been modified.

KazPGates
January 11, 2012, 04:10 PM
hmmm, well, I guess not as many people like israeli carry, I am sure I can argue a lot of points made, but, I believe they could be a great asset to people on duty, again, as ccw I dont think it has any place, but the draw would be more natural, it is supposed to actually be faster, and it requires only gross motor skill, and as far as safety, I cant imagine how cocked and locked compares any day of the week to no round in the chamber, I wont carry cocked and locked cocked and decocked or any way with a round in the chamber. the only valid point I have seen is reholstering, but, its the draw that much be quick, chances are your not reholstering if you had to use it, you are just dropping it.

KazPGates
January 11, 2012, 04:23 PM
and know he doesn't point his guns at any one, but when he has his shoulder holster on, and is riding passenger front in his car, his gun is pointing into the back seat with his kids, when he is wearing his fanny pack holster, and walking around with his family, again, gun sits perfect height and angle with his daughters head. it is happening all the time, so, he decided to never start carrying with one in the chamber, plus the chance of him needing the 20th round actually in his gun is kinda out there really, and again, as for the speed thing it was tought to be faster it required less training time and brought quicking results to the draw, noo unsnapping a strap no flipping a safety, no long first trigger pull, as you rotate into stance, you push through and use the mommentum to make a small circle. I don't feel it is novel or unuseful at all, I know myself and about 10 other people personally interested. its different, that seems to be everyones biggest problem, that and some what if, what if you draw a gun from a normal holster and it doesn't fire....the holsters weere designed to meet the russian requirment for reliabilty and durability, and had to function in the worste situation, I think it is a serious advancement in holster design, maybe not everyone would want one, obviously no one on this site, but....I thought I woud put it out there, it is unique and I think very highly of them. if they start making more, you can count me in. I would use nothing else as my duty holsters on the job.

Sam1911
January 11, 2012, 04:36 PM
it is supposed to actually be faster,Again, not possible. You're starting out by throwing your force hard into pushing the gun in the wrong direction. Then you have to recover from that thrust, change directions and present the gun. A trainer or experienced competitor could show you this very clearly in about 5 seconds.

and it requires only gross motor skillLots of striker-fired, double-action only, and DA/SA guns in the world. None of them require anything more than draw and press the trigger.

I wont carry cocked and locked cocked and decocked or any way with a round in the chamber.But you realize your feelings on this place you in an extreme minority of shooters, and folks who carry a gun for any reason.

Any negligent discharge is scary and carries risks of tragedy. But there is no pandemic of rampant negligent discharges taking place. They are pretty darned rare, considering how many guns there are in the world. This isn't a pressing problem in need of a solution.

the only valid point I have seen is reholsteringReally? Well, we tried.

but, its the draw that much be quickQuick, yes, but also it must bring the gun into action ready to go, instantly. Any step that starts with chambering a round introduces a failure point. If folks can short-stroke a pump shotgun under stress, I guarantee you they'll be able to short-stroke this holster mechanism and come up with either an empty chamber or a jammed gun. GUARANTEED.

Sometimes, when we draw, it is really darned important that the gun work RIGHT NOW.

chances are your not reholstering if you had to use it, you are just dropping it.Noooo, no that's not true at all. Your holster needs to stand ready to accept your gun, without looking and without fumbling, and one-handed because there are LOTS of things you might need your hands free for, and then need to have the gun at the ready again quickly.

And I thought you said this was better as a duty holster? How does a cop cuff and secure a suspect? Throw his gun down? Stop and unload it and re-holster? Not even really a feasible workaround for that problem.

But if this was used by someone for a self-defense gun, you do not throw down your gun when the trouble appears to cease. That's A possibility, if the police arrive on scene while you still have your gun out. (Well, maybe place it carefully on the ground.) But that's not, by far, the most likely result of a self-defense situation, whether or not shots are fired.

Need a holster that works as a holster should work. This design just doesn't.

Sam1911
January 11, 2012, 04:48 PM
when he has his shoulder holster on, and is riding passenger front in his car, his gun is pointing into the back seat with his kids, when he is wearing his fanny pack holster, and walking around with his family, again, gun sits perfect height and angle with his daughters head.
This is one of those mental games we sometimes fool with ourselves over. A holstered gun is a safe gun. The only time guns experience negligent discharges is when your hands are on them and fingers press triggers. NO safe, modern gun is going to "just go off" when it is holstered, even in a shoulder holster or fanny pack holster. So, if he can remember not to fiddle with the gun when driving around, then his kids are in no danger at all.

as for the speed thing it was tought to be faster it required less training time and brought quicking results to the drawRight, we covered that. It isn't. That's not my opinion. That's a fact.

noo unsnapping a strap no flipping a safety, no long first trigger pullI believe my fastest draw from concealment and shot into the "Down 0" zone on a target is about 1.1 seconds. That's with a 1911 with a thumb safety. The safety comes off without conscious thought put into it. There is no delay.

as you rotate into stance,Stance? If you can achieve your stance, great. Try to operate this while grappling with someone or in a seriously out-of-position situation. It gets worse and worse.

you push through and use the mommentum to make a small circleRight. We call that the "potato digger" draw. Or the "scoop and shoot." It is one of the mistakes we try to teach new shooters not to make. Don't start out going in the wrong direction -- it just slows you down.

its different, that seems to be everyones biggest problem,Well, I hope I've been able to explain that my own biggest set of problems with it aren't due to it just being "different." The design exchanges a perception of safety for some serious process and reliability drawbacks that I would not accept, given any other choice.

I would use nothing else as my duty holsters on the job.Duty holster? Are you a police officer? How do you handle the "cuffing" problem I mentioned above? One-hand it? Or climbing a ladder or fence? Or any of several thousand tasks you might have to stow your gun to perform.

You're welcome to it, if you can get one, but I imagine your department will frown on you using it on the job.

Zundfolge
January 11, 2012, 04:59 PM
To sum up; this holster is a hardware solution for what is really a software problem.

Anyone that is carrying a gun needs to have the minimum amount of training to do so safely ... fancy gadgets instead of training serve only to INCREASE negligent discharges (and with proper training ... which will take all of 10 minutes ... this thing is unnecessary).

If you can achieve your stance, great. Try to operate this while grappling with someone or in a seriously out-of-position situation. It gets worse and worse.
Considering who and what this holster was really designed for ... lets put it this way, shooting dissidents in the back of the head while they're on their knees with their hands tied behind their back I imagine one could easily get into their "stance" with little problem. :neener:


I wont carry cocked and locked cocked and decocked or any way with a round in the chamber.
You do what you feel comfortable with, but frankly the sooner you disabuse yourself of this notion the better.

There is a reason why things are done the way they are. Carrying a firearm with "one in the pipe" (even one of those scary looking cocked & locked single action guns) is the safest way to carry. If you're packing a Makarov, its probably one of the safest small pistols you can carry (even if your safety lever is warn enough to disengage while in holster, the heavy DA trigger alone is enough to keep you safe).

This isn't a matter of academics or theory, its something that is practiced on the streets of virtually every major city in the world on a daily basis.

The ONLY reason why any agency anywhere in the world carries their guns with empty chambers is due to decisions made by non-gun carrying bureaucrats (who are often opposed to their underlings even carrying a gun in the first place).

Sam1911
January 11, 2012, 05:30 PM
...shooting dissidents in the back of the head while they're on their knees with their hands tied behind their back I imagine one could easily get into their "stance" with little problem.Oh NO! You didn't! Yikes! :D

Joel
January 12, 2012, 09:33 AM
On one VERY SMALL level, I can see the appeal to this design. By forcing the user to extract the handgun by pressing down, you eliminate the possibility of an inexperienced user wrapping their finger around the trigger in panic mode to help pull the firearm out. On all other levels, it just scares me. The hard downward motion combined with the slide sling-shotting and attempting to maintain a strong hard only master grip and trying to find the trigger for quick engagement is too much for the same inexperienced shooter. Add to the fact that you are now in full extension, strong-hand-only, in a SD scenario and you need to get the firearm up to your target quickly, find your front sight that is arching into your field-of-view without presenting the firearm within reach of the bad guy and you have a tactical nightmare for even experienced shooters. I wont even go into the added simplicity of a bad guys ability to get your firearm while holstered. I'm all for innovative designs, but this is the quintessential solution trying to find a problem.

Zach S
January 12, 2012, 10:06 AM
By forcing the user to extract the handgun by pressing down, you eliminate the possibility of an inexperienced user wrapping their finger around the trigger in panic mode to help pull the firearm out. You eliminate nothing.

The blackhawk serpa holsters are not allowed in several places (front sight, various ranges, some police departments) because a few folks have shot themselves in the leg after drawing from one - even though the release on the holster indexes your finger along the upper part of the frame.

Joel
January 12, 2012, 10:16 AM
I think you proved my point instead of disproving it. The Serpa requires the index (trigger) finger to apply pressure to release the handgun thus creating the possibility that the user will continue this pressure once the trigger is exposed and the index finger will want to fall into the trigger guard. The design as presented eliminates this possibility by forcing a downward motion against the web of the hand which would counteract the tendency to want to grip the firearm with all available fingers. Unless I'm missing some finger release in the design as presented.

KazPGates
January 12, 2012, 05:46 PM
it would seem they do make it for a 1911 and glock 17, and they use a back strap and can be pull up if the gun is placed in chambered. I have thought before that I may want to carry cocked and locked, but even when I am working I feel ok con 3 (I work armed security). the holsers were designed fro and used by the military and special forces in russia, on the deadliest warrior the spetsnaz soldier had a makarov and one of these holsers and it seemed to do him great justice. did eveyone watch the video?

KazPGates
January 12, 2012, 05:51 PM
and no no finger release with its intended draw stroke, straight through out the bottom of the holster....

KazPGates
January 12, 2012, 05:55 PM
haha, this post sure aroused some interest, wish my other posts would get so much attention.....

mgmorden
January 12, 2012, 06:00 PM
, on the deadliest warrior the spetsnaz soldier had a makarov and one of these holsers and it seemed to do him great justice. did eveyone watch the video?

Ok, at this point I'm convinced we're just being trolled. Did you seriously just bring up DEADLIEST WARRIOR in a serious conversation about tactical gear?

The EXTREME majority of concealed carry, military, and law enforcement users all agree that carrying with a round in the chamber is the way to go. Its safe, and there's no gimmicky contraption to fail when you need the gun to work.

Zach S
January 12, 2012, 08:53 PM
I think you proved my point instead of disproving it. The Serpa requires the index (trigger) finger to apply pressure to release the handgun thus creating the possibility that the user will continue this pressure once the trigger is exposed and the index finger will want to fall into the trigger guard. I think it proves it, and disproves it, if that makes any sense.

When used properly, the user's trigger finger will be indexed along the frame above the trigger guard, instead of in it, yet folks have still managed to shoot themselves.

I've seen a lot of guys picking up air, battery, and electric powered tools and inadvertently pull the trigger. I've got hurt as a result of this of this as well (it was a wire brush on a drill, IIRC), and due to that I had pretty good trigger finger discipline before I got into firearms.

I could see someone putting their boogerhook on the bang switch in the process of drawing from that holster, due to the fact that when the rest of your fingers are grasping something, the one that isn't wants to follow them. It takes effort to keep that one finger straight for a while before it becomes second nature.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 12, 2012, 09:18 PM
the holsers were designed fro and used by the military and special forces in russia, on the deadliest warrior the spetsnaz soldier had a makarov and one of these holsers and it seemed to do him great justice. did eveyone watch the video?

Instant facepalm.

Get some professional training and learn that carrying chambered is perfectly safe as long as you are safe.

KazPGates
January 13, 2012, 01:12 AM
professianal training and no round in the chamber fits me better, carry how you want, it is not worth it to me, actually a=I am getting a 1911 and one of these holsters....haha, I'll let you guys know how it works...

JTQ
January 13, 2012, 09:25 AM
professianal training and no round in the chamber fits me better, carry how you want, it is not worth it to me, actually a=I am getting a 1911 and one of these holsters....haha, I'll let you guys know how it works...
I am interested to hear what your instructor says when you show up with one of those holsters.

My guess is he/she will try and persuade you to select a different holster and to carry with a round chambered.

ForumSurfer
January 13, 2012, 09:43 AM
I am getting a 1911 and one of these holsters....haha, I'll let you guys know how it works...

Talk all you want. Grab a regular holster and the holster you describe. Try each seperately. Draw, put two rounds on target center of mass and one in the head.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p188/johnnnyhgmail/966974.jpg

Internet talk, silly TV shows that prove absolutely nothing, everyone's opinions (including my own) are all pretty useless. Don't tell us it feels faster or you think it is faster, use a shot timer and see the results. The results will speak for themselves as cold, hard, indisputable facts. I'm %1000 sure I know which one will let you put rounds on target significantly faster regardless of how well trained you are with the holster. Sam broke it down for you in simple physics regarding muscle movements on the draw stroke. Any extra movements that require you to counter your own momentum (push, then pull) add precious time to the draw stroke. Fluid movements are always faster. Push down (especially with enough force to rack the slide), then pulling back up is not fluid...it is counterproductive. The holster you describe simply can't be faster due to the way the body works.

Also, start a poll and you'll see the percentages of those of us OK with carrying cocked, locked and a round in the chamber are significantly higher than those who don't. You can carry however you want. With proper training and following the 4 rules, accidents don't happen. Negligence happens if you disobey the 4 rules, but accidents won't.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 13, 2012, 01:12 PM
professianal training and no round in the chamber fits me better, carry how you want, it is not worth it to me, actually a=I am getting a 1911 and one of these holsters....haha, I'll let you guys know how it works...

Not sure what kind of training you are going to get but I have a feeling that they are not going to let you continue it if you refuse to first chamber a round.

Pete D.
January 18, 2012, 09:58 PM
Some strange ideas here:
when you put the gun in, it cannot be drawn straight back up, but rather it must be pushed through chambering a round.

Not so. The gun can be removed by drawing as normal. That is the way the holster will be used the vast majority of the time. The push through feature is for combat use or practice only. It is for getting the gun ready in an instant.
The holster is actually quite small, smaller than the pancake holster pictured in this thread - the point being that if you can wear a pancake, you can wear one of these (though it will not ride as close as the pcke).
Now - about that ready in an instant idea - the argument here is that the push through holster doesn't do that because the push moves the gun in the wrong direction. Is that the gist of it? Up and out is good (and maybe a tad back, with the forearm and upper arm crunched kinda together. Not meant to be too critical, the "normal" draw from a IWB or a pancake or other "regular" holster has always seemed anatomically awkward. The fact that many of you do it well is a tribute to practice). Down and out is bad.
In any case, I am having trouble "seeing" why down and out in a single relatively simple thrust is a bad thing, is the wrong direction. The bad guy is in front of me, yes?
Help me out here. (I did read through all the posts in then thread. None of the explanations worked particularly well for me.) There was a passing reference to an explanation of the anatomy/muscle use of the draw....I must have missed that. Which post?
this is a solution to a problem that 99.9% of the gun-carriers in the world are (at best) unaware they have
I don't see it as a solution to any problem, rather another way of doing something.
Pete

Sam1911
January 18, 2012, 10:24 PM
In any case, I am having trouble "seeing" why down and out in a single relatively simple thrust is a bad thing, is the wrong direction. The bad guy is in front of me, yes?


This may be too complicated to explain in words if the explanations above don't make it clear enough. On a range with either a trainer, or a trained and well-practiced shooter (especially a competitive shooter) -- and a shot timer -- this would be abundantly clear. But we just don't have the luxury of all getting together for a demo run.

Pete D.
January 19, 2012, 12:23 AM
I appreciate that you took time to respond.
It seems that an effective demonstration would require a person or persons who are as well practiced with the push through holster as with the more traditional pull out holster. No? Yes?
That makes me wonder if the big difference is the matter of familiarity. We get real good when we practice.
Pete

Sam1911
January 19, 2012, 08:27 AM
If you could somehow have a push-through type holster and a more common style OWB holster for the same gun, and could put the same level of practice into both, that would indeed give the greatest possible level of equality of comparison. At that point, only the benefits or drawbacks of the specific holster would be in question, as the gun and shooter would be equaled out.

That's pretty much impossible as the holsters don't exist for the guns most of us carry and none of us has, or is going to devote the time to, developing that much proficiency with the push-through system.

But that's ok. An experienced competitor or instructor can evaluate the functions that must be performed and identify the drawbacks inherent in the system without investing more than a few minutes of contemplation.

Someone who has been well trained in the most current best practices has seen first hand that the "down & up" or "potato digger" type draw is slow, not conducive to accuracy, and not optimal for weapon retention. Folks have been working to perfect the draw-stroke for decades. It is very well understood at this point. We know what works best and what falls short. This type of holster forces the user to abandon the best practices. Strike one.

We also can clearly see that this introduces a failure point in that the shooter must execute a broad, critical function before the gun is ready to fire. We know from studying gun fights and the way people react under stress that any such act being required increases the rate of failure. We aren't talking here about dropping a thumb safety that's naturally under the thumb as you present the weapon, but a large gross motor movement that you may be too cramped, too blocked, too pinned, or just too panicked to perform in a timely fashion. The risk of failure could be reduced through training, lots and lots of training, but this was offered as a possible duty holster. Police officers by and large (and soldiers issued sidearms), don't get that level of training. Not even close. Strike two.

Third, the specific function required -- that of chambering a round -- is a problematic one. Again, those who shoot a lot tend to understand this intuitively. Chambering a round, not through the automatic action of the weapon, but by external means, is a heightened failure rate operation. Most good shooters do a "press check" before shooting a course of fire. They know that no matter how many times they've chambered that first round out of the mag, every once in a while something fouls and the chamber is empty. Or, that the first round out bobbles and fails to feed. So, not only does the shooter have to perform a specific and "grand" operation of the gun under stress, but that operation is the single function MOST likely to cause the gun to jam or come up empty. Strike three.

So, A big distinction here is familiarity. But it isn't THE only one, and it isn't the most important one.

Pete D.
January 19, 2012, 03:46 PM
Sam: Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed reply. I hope that you don't mind my continuing the discussion. I like to know how people know things.
We know what works best and what falls short. This type of holster forces the user to abandon the best practices.
Since this type of holster is not in common use - I have only ever seen pictures of one - how can it have been evaluated properly? How do we know anything but that it is a different way to do a task? If it fares poorly in all the areas which you mentioned, on what basis was that judgement made since no one, evidently, uses the things in this country? (Too often, I have seen something labelled bad just because it was different and there was a lot of bad info - like that earlier comment that the gun in the Spetsnaz holster could only be removed by pushing it out and into battery. That would be inconvenient. But that is not the case.)
The "large gross motor movement" to which you refer, personally, I don't see the push down as any more of a challenge than the contortion that a shooter has to go through to remove a pistol from a IWB or pancake holster, especially if the holster is located toward the back.
Using a push type holster - as I see it - the shooter grasps the gun (*) and straightens the shooting arm, raises the ready to fire weapon and shoots. Pancake - the shooter draws his elbow back(and partly the shoulder, since the deltoids are involved), during the drawback, the angle between the upper and lower arm becomes more acute (* this happens during the grasping stage with the push holster also) , grasps the grip, releases the retainer with the thumb, raises the arm, etc, a bit more in order to clear the holster and then has to swing the arm forward, get it straight, rotate the wrist a bit and then engage.
I don't believe that I am over detailing the series of events there. Perhaps you have a different take on it. The point being that there seems to be more than enough "gross motor movement" involved in a normal draw.
Mind you...I am not advocating one method over another. I just don't see a big difference.
Pete

Sam1911
January 19, 2012, 04:11 PM
Since this type of holster is not in common use - I have only ever seen pictures of one - how can it have been evaluated properly? How do we know anything but that it is a different way to do a task?In the strictest sense, you are right.

But as I said:
But that's ok. An experienced competitor or instructor can evaluate the functions that must be performed and identify the drawbacks inherent in the system without investing more than a few minutes of contemplation.

There are similarities between the motions this holster forces you to perform and those that many neophyte shooters slip into using because they don't know better. The "down-&-scoop" motion of that draw is something that most trainers and shooting instructors watch for and are expecting to see from folks who have been practicing on their own for a little while and don't realize the inefficiencies of their technique.

It takes a little guidance and corrective criticism to get folks to develop to a better form, but once they do they're surprised at how much faster they go and how much better control they have.

If it fares poorly in all the areas which you mentioned, on what basis was that judgement made since no one, evidently, uses the things in this country? I don't have to drink paint thinner to understand how doing so might be harmful. To really PROVE it -- you're right -- I'd better have two test subjects, one drinking water, and one drinking paint thinner and then we can study and record the effects on each. To be fair, though, I really aught to make use of a larger sample size... :uhoh:

On the other hand, someone who has studied biology and physiology and pathology could probably deduce from identifying the compounds in the substance and comparing their known quantities with the way the human body normally works, and make some very well educated and sound statements about whether or not the practice would be beneficial -- even without the benefit of a perfect test of that theory.

See the analogy? :)

I agree that a very carefully organized test, on video, with a timer, would be the most convincing possible finder of fact regarding these holsters.

But that isn't possible, and it really isn't necessary for most knowledgeable folks to make a judgement about the drawbacks and benefits.

If that doesn't convince you, that is certainly fine. I understand and appreciate a strong habit of skepticism. Please do look into it if it interests you and if you're ever in a position to obtain test examples and can make your way up to central PA, I'd love to provide range facilities and extra volunteers and help you make the most scientific test of it we can.

The "large gross motor movement" to which you refer

...

The point being that there seems to be more than enough "gross motor movement" involved in a normal draw.
Mind you...I am not advocating one method over another. I just don't see a big difference.

I certainly understand your contention. My take on it is slightly different.

The standard 4-count draw stroke works like this:
1) Obtain firing grip
2) Draw to pectoral "retention" position -- (gun may be body-index fired at the opponent from this position)
3) Extend gun to centerline and forward to meet support hand. -- (gun may be fired at the opponent from this position)
4) Full extension -- aimed fire.

The "Spetsnaz" draw changes that to a 5- or 6- count draw stroke:
1) Obtain firing grip
2) Press down hard to full extension. (Assuming/hoping to cleanly disengage handgun from holster and chamber a round.)
2.5) Draw past the holster level...
3) ... and up to pectoral "retention" position -- (gun may be body-index fired at the opponent from this position)
4) Extend gun to centerline and forward to meet support hand. -- (gun may be fired at the opponent from this position)
5) Full extension -- aimed fire.

For a good draw stroke this can only add a step or step and a half, and that extra motion is strongly, forcefully in the wrong direction. You will have to "recover" your momentum from that motion and change direction to come back up past the holster and to your proper "Count 2" position.

Joel
January 19, 2012, 04:27 PM
Can I be in the paint thinner group???

Sam1911
January 19, 2012, 04:46 PM
Yes...wait...I thought you were already in the "Sterno" test group?

:barf:

:D

Joel
January 19, 2012, 05:17 PM
I was? Oh crap... Memory loss was one of the side effects, wasn't it?! Oh crap... Oh crap...

Seriously though, Pete, Sam is right on the money. You can test this out yourself by doing a one handed chambering/clearing drill on your belt/holster (with an empty gun or dummy rounds PLEASE) and try to get up on target. You're going to have to stop the downward momentum and either swing the gun up which will result in poor sight acquisition and thus a probable wild shot, or reverse directions (passing the handgun by the holster you would have normally just drawn from) which brings us right to the point of an extra step or two and the loss of speed.

Pete D.
January 19, 2012, 07:21 PM
Sam and Joel: Thank you both. I do continue to wonder.
One thing that I wonder about is whether your own great familiarity and dedicated training leads you to simplify what are really complex movements.
1) Obtain firing grip
2) Draw to pectoral "retention" position
Seems to me that there's a lot going on between 1 and 2 that's not accounted for. The whole act which is summarized by "draw", for instance.

Joel : showing my own lack of familiarity here....that "one handed chambering/clearing drill" to which you refer. I am not at all familiar with such a thing. Any worthwhile videos?
I am probably going to have to play with this myself. I have a Makarov and various holsters for it. I'll need to pickup one of the Spetsnaz holsters.
Very curious, I am.
Pete

bigfatdave
January 19, 2012, 08:18 PM
Not so. The gun can be removed by drawing as normal. yes, I assumed that if one could put the gun in from the top that it could also be removed from the top.
Which still makes it a clunky and oversize holster for normal upward removal, now doesn't it?

The reason one would accept that oversize holster would be for the gimmick offered by the push-to-operate-slide feature ... I don't see anything else nice about the holster, barring collectors' interest

bigfatdave
January 19, 2012, 08:31 PM
Oh hell, given a holster of this design, I'd take a swing at running it (I'm in NW Ohio and do have range facilities, Mak ammo and free time on a somewhat random schedule, if you're in the area, bring one of these silly things to the range, and a shot timer ... I'll supply Silver Bear HP Mak ammo and snap-caps, maybe some reactive targets, too)

But I really don't see how the racking can be reliable
And I don't see how thrusting my hand and weapon DOWN will result in a faster draw than up ... maybe if it punched the gun forward it could rely on the pivot at your shoulder to bring the muzzle in the correct direction?

The shot timer tells all - a freebie shot timer android app demonstrated the madness of empty-chamber carry quite well to me, I still gave it a dry-run attempt after careful consideration showed me that it was a silly way to carry a gun ... because I wanted to quantify how silly it was (very).

Sam1911
January 19, 2012, 11:15 PM
Seems to me that there's a lot going on between 1 and 2 that's not accounted for. The whole act which is summarized by "draw", for instance.

Not sure what to say about that. Hand on gun, raise gun, rotate level at "Count 2." That's it. Gun can be fired from right there.

But even if we agree that there's something complex about that motion, there's nothing going on there that is negated or removed by the push-down step, recovery, and change of direction required by the "Spetsnaz."

So you went down instead of up, now you have to come UP -- and come up farther than you would have had to before.

Is there some other way of saying it? If you push the gun down, below the belt line, the gun does not then make a quantum leap and instantly appear in the "count 2" position near the pectoral muscle. You still have to cross the intervening territory and that takes just as much time -- more now, actually -- than it would have had you simply come UP to begin with.

Pete D.
January 20, 2012, 06:27 AM
BFDave: So....you did try both. Well, that's something. The differences are beginning to gel for me at this point.
I will still want to try for myself. Probably. Maybe.
This is what I was able to find.
You consider this bulky?
http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr287/PeteDoyle/efa2k.jpg


Sam: You still have to cross the intervening territory and that takes just as much time -- more now, actually -- than it would have had you simply come UP to begin with.
I am beginning to see your point. It just seemed (still does) that the simple act of raising the straight arm was a simple enough act.
Thanks for your patience.
Pete

F-111 John
January 20, 2012, 07:27 AM
So you went down instead of up, now you have to come UP -- and come up farther than you would have had to before.
I think this holster is impractical for CCW, and probably impractical for military battlefield use as well. However I respectfully disagree with Sam on his one point above.

You grip weapon. You push down to unholster, load, and disengage safety. Your arm is now straight, pointing down, with a grip on the weapon. You then simply rotate your arm at the shoulder, keeping your arm straight, and your weak hand meets your strong hand in front of you. You now have your isosceles stance, ready to fire.

Sam makes it sound as if after you unholster by pushing, you must then bend your elbow to bring the gun back up along your body to your belly with the muzzle down, then have your off hand meet your strong hand at your belly button, give that tacticacool left and right head look, then rotate the weapon and press forward into the isoceles stance.

I suppose the latter is required for close quarters weapon retention, but it is not required for the fastest possible first shot.

Sam1911
January 20, 2012, 08:44 AM
You grip weapon. You push down to unholster, load, and disengage safety. Your arm is now straight, pointing down, with a grip on the weapon. You then simply rotate your arm at the shoulder, keeping your arm straight, and your weak hand meets your strong hand in front of you. You now have your isosceles stance, ready to fire.


But that sweep up with arm locked straight is a BAD draw. This is the "SCOOP" or "potato digger" draw I keep referring to. It is insufficient on several levels. A clear mark of a newbie shooter that needs coaching. That's something we're slowly helping get folks to abandon.

It isn't faster than the 4-count draw, it is lousy for retention and is easily blocked, and presents the weapon to the target in the wrong motion.

Instead of pushing the gun out toward the target, from Count 2, through 3, and to fully extended at Count 4, you're sweeping up across the target, hoping to break the shot as you swing past your target point. In essence, "wingshooting" at a stationary target. (Or as you slow your motion and try to stop on the target point.)

With the 4-count, you're making a motion that is directed right at your target the whole time, and the gun can be fired anywhere along the path. As you move from close retention (Count 2) to hands together at center (Count 3) and then push out into extension (Count 4) you're dressing the sights and improving your accuracy potential, but you're starting the whole motion with the gun already aligned on target.

but it is not required for the fastest possible first shot. Competition shooters who really care about the (MOST ACCURATE) fastest first shot do not agree with you. Watch what Todd Jarrett, Jerry Miculek and the rest are doing. Raise gun, hands together, press forward, shot breaks at the instant of extention. Some of them don't use a real high-and-tight Count 2 position, but the motion is the same.

Pete D.
January 20, 2012, 01:03 PM
These videos were helpful. Is this what you are describing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG66io6XxFk&feature=fvst

and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCt0ihKzsNE&feature=related

Looked at a number of videos of Todd Jarrett and Jerry Miculek.
Jarrett seems to be using a specialized holster that allows the gun to move forward without lifting the gun up very much to clear. Is that the case?
Speed aside for a moment..none of those holsters appear to be any less bulky than the one that is pictured above.
Pete

PS - hard to compare, even with these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCx7Ve3ozg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fobvYJVXqBQ

Sam1911
January 20, 2012, 01:21 PM
Yes, that second video is a pretty good demonstration of what I'm describing.

The first guy has the right idea, though he gives the impression that he needs more years of practice before he sets out on his teaching career. ;)

Some of the videos you'll find of competition shooters will show them using USPSA "Open Class" gear. Skeletonized holsters and the like. That can be confusing, but they will use largely the same draw.

I don't have a problem with the bulk of the 'Spetsnaz' holster. Bulk isn't much of an issue from my perspective.

Love the second set! Hey, there's Sonny! :D Yes, it's going to be hard to compare those with more purposeful videos designed less as sales promotions to the uninformed.

Sam1911
January 20, 2012, 01:53 PM
Pete, here's a detailed explanation: http://www.teddytactical.com/Redesign/TeddyTalk/fourcountdraw.html

bigfatdave
January 20, 2012, 04:25 PM
You consider this bulky?It sticks out from the belt too much for me ... so yes.
I suppose if your standard is some kind of paddle holster, it isn't that bad.

You grip weapon. You push down to unholster, load, and disengage safety. Your arm is now straight, pointing down, with a grip on the weapon. You then simply rotate your arm at the shoulder, keeping your arm straight, and your weak hand meets your strong hand in front of you. You now have your isosceles stance, ready to fire.Try that with a gun-weight object, just starting from the belt. Tape a flashlight or laser to it and you'll see that it doesn't put your sights on target faster, you have to either overshoot upwards on too much momentum or slow it down.
Push the gun out and your sights end up on target much more effectively, because you aren't wildly waving your arm in the air with a 2# weight on the end of it.

Sam1911
January 20, 2012, 04:37 PM
Here's another view of a carefully parsed 4-count draw: http://me1.tripod.com/4count.html

Unfortunately he's using it to go to Weaver, but it should be clear from the pics how it would work more smoothly to go to a more appealing Isosceles presentation.

ForumSurfer
January 20, 2012, 05:27 PM
Here's another view of a carefully parsed 4-count draw: http://me1.tripod.com/4count.html

Pete, also consider this. We train for self defense purposes. Training for many different scenarios is necessary because we just never know exactly what we are going to face (which is hopefully nothing).

With the 4 count draw you are able to fire starting at step 2 if need be. Guess what, you just saved yourself some precious time.

Let's put that in perspective and just guess that you saved .75 seconds. For the average person, that is more than 8 feet of sprinting time.

Don't forget to account for drawing while moving, laying, sitting or any other host of environmental factors that we may face. The spetnaz type holster is going to be a little more goofy to operate in those areas.

So ask yourself why you would want to carry in a way that will be slower than modern practices, presents you with less options, in such a way that 99.9099 percent of trainers will not train you on and that no top (or bottom) competitor uses (if it was faster and better, they would certainly use it).

Sure, the spetznaz uses it or at least used it at one time. I'm not spetnaz. My primary weapon is going to be my handgun. I need to focus my training on what gets it going faster.

Going back to your original observation about this holster solving the problem of carrying with a round in the chamber, you'll see that the same problem can be fixed with discipline, awareness and training (mindset and skill-set). Skipping over both of those aspects and jumping to the hardware (equipment) kind of goes against the order of mindset, skill-set then equipment. You're solving a software problem with hardwear that creates more problems (more complex and less effective draw stroke).

Pete D.
January 20, 2012, 09:49 PM
Going back to your original observation about this holster solving the problem of carrying with a round in the chamber...

Nuh-uh. Not my observation. I didn't join in until page two. When I carry, there's one in the chamber.

About saving three-quarters of a second...i realize that was just an estimate but in this arena, .75 sec is a looong time.
About competition use: (if it was faster and better, they would certainly use it
Very true. That is usually my argument about the effectiveness of a piece of equipment.

About options: presents you with less options, in such a way that 99.9099 percent of trainers will not train you on
Not being argumentative here - I an just an old Bullseye shooter and that is where my training is - what options are compromised? I really don't know.
Pete

Pete D.
January 29, 2012, 08:15 AM
I will still want to try for myself. Probably. Maybe

So, I did. And, yes, I can see that the holsters and techniques in the videos are faster than the push down and out holster.
The big issue with the "Spetnaz" holster is that it requires a good healthy shove in order to unholster the gun. That is most probably a training issue. Every time that I have given a GHS to the gun, the holster has worked as advertised.
It is not particularly fast. But, then, I don't train the way some of y'all seem to so a regular holster is not particularly fast for me.
i do see the point that was made about the gun being down when other techniques have it up within the same time frame.
Pete

ForumSurfer
January 29, 2012, 12:04 PM
So, I did. And, yes, I can see that the holsters and techniques in the videos are faster than the push down and out holster.
The big issue with the "Spetnaz" holster is that it requires a good healthy shove in order to unholster the gun. That is most probably a training issue. Every time that I have given a GHS to the gun, the holster has worked as advertised.
It is not particularly fast. But, then, I don't train the way some of y'all seem to so a regular holster is not particularly fast for me.
i do see the point that was made about the gun being down when other techniques have it up within the same time frame.
Pete
10 minutes of shooting > 10 days of discussion

:)

I do believe that you are just as hard headed as myself. :neener: I was insistent that my way was ok because of my own false rationalizations until someone showed me. Discussion is great, but sometimes we need to get out there and just shoot.

I don't train the way some of y'all seem to so a regular holster is not particularly fast for me.

%99 of us could use more draw practice. Think about that. The only part of shooting that is completely free, and it is the most under-practiced procedure. Not only is it free, but we can do it at home. You can even sit and do it while watching TV and get practice drawing from a seated position. Invest a few bucks in snap caps (an maybe even a laser) and you can practice some great draw, trigger manipulation and reloading skills. Given how much time we all can squeeze in at home and that it is %100 free since we've already got all the equipment we need, we should all be Quick Draw McGraw. Unfortunately many of us neglect this and don't practice anywhere near as much as we should/can...myself included.

bigfatdave
January 29, 2012, 02:12 PM
%99 of us could use more draw practice. Think about that. The only part of shooting that is completely free, and it is the most under-practiced procedure. Not only is it free, but we can do it at home. You can even sit and do it while watching TV and get practice drawing from a seated position. Invest a few bucks in snap caps (an maybe even a laser) and you can practice some great draw, trigger manipulation and reloading skills. Given how much time we all can squeeze in at home and that it is %100 free since we've already got all the equipment we need, we should all be Quick Draw McGraw. Unfortunately many of us neglect this and don't practice anywhere near as much as we should/can...myself included.

This is good thinking. Instead of looking for the gadget to fix a sloppy fumble-tastic draw, practice instead.
I strongly recommend loading up with snap-caps or dummy ammunition, putting on the idiot box, and picking yourself a cue to draw and "fire" on. I like gameshows, and I try to tag the host while solving the puzzles ... Nothing against Alex Trebek, but he's only on screen for a few moments at a time and the show keeps my brain occupied.

I should have someone keep score, both on hits and right answers.

If you enjoyed reading about "a holster for every gun" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!