Carry ammo....Hand loaded or Factory loaded?

[clipse]

Is your carry ammo factory or hand loaded? And why?


No flaming. No telling someone that they are wrong is doing what they are doing. Just tell me why you do what you do. Thanks.


clipse

[Ala Dan]

I voted for the factory fodder; although I do trust myself. :cool:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[foghornl]

Voted factory, since right now I don't 'roll my own'.

Range ammo, though, I buy from my local commercial reloader. National Bullet Company

[mtnbkr]

Depends on the gun. For my 357mag, it's my handloads all the way. For my 38special, it's factory because I don't feel like I can improve upon what's offered for the price. For my 32acp, it's factory for now, but will be my own handloads once I finish working out some ideas.

My handloads have been more reliable overall than factory. I've had a couple squib factory loads in the past year, but the only squib handloads I've had were ones that occured when working up very light loads.

Chris

[cratz2]

Voted factory, since right now I don't 'roll my own'.

Ditto!
:p

[tc300mag1]

No option carry factory becuse the bloodsucking lawyers(no offense to any gun loving lawyers) Try to turn your handload into the JFK wonder bullets and also say since you loaded it you specifically loaded it to kill so one so it was premedated.

So ill vote factory

[mtnbkr]

Has that ever happened in a court case? I haven't heard of it if it has.

Chris

[tc300mag1]

I have heard that it was tried in one of the gun rags they talked about it dont rember the outcome

All i know it the police instructers at the class i just took told us it is a big no no and your casuing yourself a lot of hassels. These guys own the gunshop/range and 2 of the 4 work still as officers ive delt with them many time at range and trust what they tell me to be good info

[Model520Fan]

35-year tally:

Winchester: no failures to fire
Federal: no failures to fire
Self: 2 failures to fire about 33 years ago (handgun ammo)
Remington: 3 failures to fire about 3 years ago (rifle ammo)

I guess you know what I carry.

[Shawn Dodson]

I handload 9mm 147gr Remington Golden Saber for defense, duplicating factory velocity specs when fired from my Glock 19.

This practice allows me to train with my actual defense ammo for a lot less cost. It is the one load I use for everything.

[Chuck Jennings]

Only factory loads. Apt living has me cramped enough already.

[Rangegod]

30 years ago I often carried handloads. Back then there was not much in the way of factory high performance ammo and what was available usually didn't work as advertised. At that time it was very easy for a reloader to exceed factory accuracy and terminal performance. In those days I could load Speer 200 gr flying ashtrays for my 45s and often pushed 9mm JHPs past 1500 fps which allowed performance no factory ammo could duplicate . However, today it is very hard if not imposible to improve on factory ammo. Add to that the increased sensitivity of the law towards guns and gun owners and it is just not worth the hassle.

BTW, don't ask about the 9 MM load as it takes two steps of compression to load the charge and I'm to old to risk it today!

JAC

[Series 70]

Carry factory, though I do trust myself. Since I load FMJ for practice, I'd have to mess with the seating die to get JHP ammo to have the correct COL. Either that, or get another set of dies and a toolhead, just to load carry ammo. No thanks.

[Ala Dan]

While we are on the subject of factory ammo vs.
handloaded ammo; and since velocity seems
to be the "hot topic" of this thread, I was wondering
if any one here still has any Super Vel ammo left
over from 'em good ole days?

For those that don't know, it was the first Hyper
Velocity centerfire handgun ammunition available. In
.357 magnum, a 110 grain JHP was reported to be
moving out in the neighborhood of 1250 to 1400 fps.
I can't remember the exact stat's; but it was some
really hot stuff! :uhoh: :cool:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[ChristopherG]

Premium factory ammo is stupid expensive. I can load highly effective, accurate, and reliable ammunition with premium bullets for a tiny fraction of what the factory stuff costs. Furthermore, I can load precisely what I'm comfortable shooting at a power level I'm comfortable with, especially for an ammo-sensitive gun like my airlite j-frame. I load defensive ammo for the same reasons I load target ammo; it's better, it's more precisely what I want, and it's much, much cheaper. It's also legal; so why wouldn't I?

[Jeeper]

I have carried both. Rightnow I think it is factory stuff. I dont see a problem either way. I think the whole "dont carry reloads" is just another myth. I havent ever seen proof of it being used against anyone.

[gggman]

I carry factory loads, but not because I don't trust myself. I too have read articles in the gun rags about the liability issue when using hand loads for defense. If you have to shoot someone, you probably will have enough trouble without adding to it un-necessarily. I figure if I'm using the same ammo that cops carry, they can't use that against me in court.:scrutiny:

[Standing Wolf]

I'd be entirely willing to stake my life on my hand loads; unfortunately, working up the exact right .357 magnum round for my main carry gun would take months. It was quicker, easier, and less expensive to buy an assortment of factory rounds and pick the most accurate.

[P95Carry]

Factory but .. roll my own for near everything else. Just started loading up with the Cor-Bon 140 grain loads .. 1325 quoted on those ... that's useful!

I do think the liability deal is something to bear in mind even is, as we usually say when this crops up .. we don't seem to have case to quote. Just seems a tad more ''sensible'', that's all.

That aside ... I'd prefer my home loads .... and my gas check 158 cast SWC is about best .357 mag round I have found.

Still keep some .38 +P Corbons too.

[cool45auto]

Factory because I know exactly squat about reloading.

[BluesBear]

Depends on the gun I am carrying.

I carry only handloads in my .41 magnum since there are no really good DS rounds in factory boxes.

In everything else I often carry home-brew. That way I can afford to practice with the exact same load I carry. This $2 apiece for factory stuff is getting silly.

I think that we are very lucky to have as many good factory option as we do now. I can well remember when Lead and FMJ was just about the only options except for a few soft-point loads in the magnums.

God bless Lee Jurras, he blazed the path for the rest to follow.


What would our world be like without Sam Colt, John Browning, Elmer Keith and Lee Jurras? :scrutiny:

[SapperLeader]

I carry factory, but I do trust myself. While I dont have a reloading setup of my own, I have had the opportunity to use friends, and the ammo has always come out right. For most autos, I would probally use factory anyway, but on revolvers for woods guns, and maybe a 10mm, id consider making my own loads.

[popbang]

I use handloads in my CCW. As others have said this allows me to practice with a load that I carry. It also allows me to optimize my carry ammo by taking advantage of the best bullets and low flash powders. The last advantage is I know everything was done right with my ammunition, which gives me confidence.

[STEVE M]

I carry only fact. new ammo. I do trust my handloads, but 1: I don't have

access to all of the powders and testing equipment that the factories do.

(low-flash powder, pressure testing, ballistic gelatin, car glass ect.)

2: Some of the modern bullets are not available as a reloading

component. 3: My company lists approved ammo and my reloads are not

on it!

Nothing wrong with reloads, but with what is available for defence, why

bother?

[Double Naught Spy]

Ah tc300mag1, that is precious!

You don't have gun rag reference to talk about the alledged court case where the handload issue came into play. No biggie. Nobody does. Gun instructors all across the country pass on this stupid myth on the CHANCE possibility that it could happen, even though nobody seems to know of any actual cases where it has happened. This is an Ayoobian myth that has been around for at least 25 years and it comes up time and time again and nobody has any court cases to substantiate this myth.

Either you had the right to use lethal force or you did not in a self defense shooting. If you did, it doesn't matter whether the load was handload, factory, or whatever.

Also, if you are believing that somehow the handloads could indicate premeditation, that would no more be the case than having the gun on your person or having actually loaded it with ammo. Additionally, the lawyer could just as well argue that you loaded your gun with the evil factory ammo that was developed to cause the most damage.

The liability is not in whether or not you loaded the ammo, but in whether or not you shot somebody.

[manyironsinfire]

I carry factory because of legal issues if bad stuff happens I do'nt want some lawyer telling a jury that I handloaded evil bullets..But I only shoot reloads for practice and match's similar to my factory loads because of cost.

[OF]

You should read the post just above yours, manyirons.

For me, one of the great things about the Winchester Ranger-T ammo is it's inexpensive compared to alot of the premium carry ammo out there...and it's the top of the heap.

- Gabe

PS: Welcome to THR!

[mtnbkr]

DNS: Hear! Hear!

It's about time someone added a bit of sanity to this discussion. The liability aspect would be worth considering if the carry load in question was a shotgun full of dimes or a hollowpoint filled with poison, but we're talking about factory supplied bullets that are frequently available in factory ammo as well.

Besides, would the police even bother determining what you shot was a handload? How would they tell? Sure, they could ID the bullet type and match it to the casing, but would they even bother? What if the case was the same type with the same type of bullet in factory ammo? What if you bought the ammo from a reloading outfit like Georgia Arms? Is that a superduper deadly handload or a factory load?

Like DNS said, once you commit to using deadly force, the mere act of using that force is what's going to be held against you.

Chris

[manyironsinfire]

That's a very good point but the police collect evidence to make sure its not a wrongful death...It's the family and the lawyers,(read civil liability) case that will look closely at the type ,the amount shot, the box it came in and the placement of the shot(s) on the so called victim.. This,IMHO is the real midigating factor in carrying factory ammo.I also mark the box with info regarding which gun is loaded with it....Remember Murphy's law!

[HSMITH]

Handloads. What I like is typically either not available or $2 per round.

[mtnbkr]

the box it came in

Since I don't carry boxed ammo around with me on a daily basis, how are they going to get their hands on that box? Do police typically search the homes of people involved in self defense shootings, especially if the gun, person(s), bullets, and shell casings are still at the scene? Do lawyers in a civil case have the power to demand items from your home when the "crime" in question took place elsewhere?

Chris

[manyironsinfire]

These are all good points and I can't answer them all, but intuitively I feel that reducing the variables is a good thing....I've never had to protect thee or thine but if I do I don't want to be painted into a corner unnesecarily by some lawyer...

[BluesBear]

No one ever really asked me what kind of ammo I was using.

[manyironsinfire]

OK,OK, you guy's have convinced me. Carry factory ammo but don't ask, don't tell..Or carry reloads and don't worry,be happy!!:D

[d906670]

It was brought up in the civil case I had just because the pitcure had my reloading press in it. They paid my lawer fees when it was over.

[LoneWulf]

Factory carry ammo only as required by my dept. No handloads allowed for carry ammo.

[mbott]

If I carried (can't even apply until after April 7th), I'd carry what I shoot. Be that factory or reloads.

--
Mike

[mtnbkr]

It was brought up in the civil case I had just because the pitcure had my reloading press in it.

Can you give us details? Specifically what their point was, how they got a picture of your loading press, etc.

Chris

[Black_Talon]

I shoot handloads in competition and they all go bang but I still keep factory loads (RA45T) in my gun for defense. I don't think I can build a load that will be more effective or reliable than that. Cheaper maybe, but otherwise I see no advantage.

[d906670]

crime seen photos, tried to make the big bad bullets bull, but the jury did not buy it. just retired from uc work and the local prosecuter had a hardon for me was charged with 1st degree murder, facts showed it was justified shoot and who I did work for not just another junkie.

[P95Carry]

d906670 .......... any more facts you can give?? This could be very educational.

[aerod1]

I voted for factory due to the legal implications of using handloads.

Jim Hall

[Dave R]

Handloaded. Since I started reloading, I dont spend the $$ for premium defense loads any more. I just load 'em.

I don't believe there are any legal consequences. My reloads use the same components as factory ammo, and at the same velocity. So what's the difference?

[Frenchy]

Factory!...I let the company do the research...I don't have time. :)

[manyironsinfire]

YES, please give us somemore details on this matters! IT will be very good information for us all...

[mtnbkr]

crime seen photos

Your reloading room was a crime scene?

Chris

[boogalou]

I just can't buy the premise that we should use factory ammo because of liability reasons. It makes no sense that using a 230 grain hydro-shock ( evil name = evil bullet :rolleyes: ) would be OK but I could get in trouble because I shot someone with a 200 gr. SWC target load. (Oh my god! a target load, aren't those really accurate!)

Any lawyer worth his salt should be able to defend what you use for self-defense against a prosecuter who decides to bring up the reloading card. Especially if you're using standard HP's and not going the P+ route. The only negative I can see about not using your own ammo is the perception by the public (jury) that reloaders are crazy alchemists rubbing garlic, teflon, hot sauce, or a combination thereof on the tips of their bullets.

[ruger357]

Always factory.

[mtnbkr]

It makes no sense that using a 230 grain hydro-shock ( evil name = evil bullet ) would be OK but I could get in trouble because I shot someone with a 200 gr. SWC target load

If they can make an issue out of that, why not take it one step further and say you used too much gun. Why do you need a 45acp when a 38special should be "enough". Why did you use a 357sig instead of a 9mm, etc. We should all be carrying single shot handguns chambered in 22lr.

Chris

[Ktulu]

I always carry factory ammo. The main reason I reload is to save money. I don't shoot enough SD ammo to justify reloading it. Besides, WTF do I know about terminal ballistics, stopping power, etc.? With GoldenSabors, Hydroshocks, Ranger, etc. out there I'm not quite arrogant enough to think I can do better in my basement.

[sgtmaj13]

Factory. Don't reload. Would use factory even if I did. Won't use factory w/bad a## names, "gold dot" sounds so innocent. Plausable deniability.

[manyironsinfire]

You know, depending on where you live and the mind set that is currently serving as jurors,Too much gun might become an issue in the not so distance future.. Justified shooting or not..But going through a stop sign at 50mph.with a phone glued to your ear and killing an unfortunite biker gets you community sevice and a slap on your wrist and here we are debating whether to carry factory or reloaded ammo, GO FIGURE!!!!!

[ChristopherG]

I realize it SOUNDS sensible to say 'leave it to the pros; they've done the research and know their terminal ballistics'--as a couple of people have said in this thread. The logic doesn't go very far, however, since I can effectively create the exact same terminal ballisitics, using the exact same projectile in many cases. Once I know that a given round achieves its balance of penetration and expansion with, e.g., a 230 gr. Gold Dot going 8XX fps, the factory's advantage is gone.

What I'm making is not some homebrewed willowbark tea, it's a GENERIC product using the same 'active ingredient' (the projectile) and a suitable delivery system (other components). I could just as well get a similar 'generic' load from a 'pro' reloader like Georgia Arms. But again, I like the ones I make better (even if I did always want the exact same thing manufacturers are turning out, which is only sometimes the case).

So, yeah; the factories have done the research, and I'm glad; but once I know what they're makin', I can (with projectiles that are publically available) make the same stuff (and some proud reloaders will surely claim, reasonably in my experience, to be able to make the same thing Better).

[manyironsinfire]

You guys give a very perswaysive argument for carrying reloads that perform like factory, but calk it up to my general cynisicism and parinoia of the legal system.I do'nt think most people think with such clarity of logic as most in this forum do,when things go BANGBANG...(doubletap):rolleyes:

[Ktulu]

ChristopherG, you know what? I think you changed my mind. I'm going to pick up some Golden Sabers the next time I have the chance and crank some out. My mass produced reloads are as good if not better then factory target/plinking ammo. With a little more care I can produce some SD ammo that far exceeds the consistency of the factory stuff.

[Mastrogiacomo]

Wouldn't begin to know how to do this so factory for me. Less hassle considering...

[ChristopherG]

Ktulu--right on! You'll be amazed, if you haven't looked, at how affordable Golden Sabers are. Here are 1000 .45s (185 gr) for 87 bucks:

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/736768

For that price, you can afford to play around with your loads and shoot a reasonable amount of your carry load. People who don't reload make it sound like work; people who do reload clearly consider it all another excuse to make superior ammunition. Have a blast!

[benEzra]

Too much gun might become an issue in the not so distance future
Less likely for the common defensive calibers than the "exotic" calibers, IMHO. I can see a lawyer making an issue of a .500 S&W or even a .44 mag (in a civil case) right now, but probably not a 9mm/.40/.357SIG/.45 anytime soon, simply because these are the calibers the police use.

[Dave R]

One other point on this "factory loaded so the jury won't think I'm evil for reloading my own".

How is anyone going to know you reloaded the rounds in question vs. using factory loads?

The brass has a factory headstamp. The bullets are the same one the factory loads. Are they gonna analyze powder or primer residue? For all I know, the powder and primers I use are the same ones tha factory uses.

[P95Carry]

DaveR ... leaving aside the finer nuances of legal complications etc .... I'd reckon that even a once fired case that had been resized would be detectable! N'est pas? Sorta ''giveaway''?

[mtnbkr]

I'd reckon that even a once fired case that had been resized would be detectable!

But who would bother to check?

I know there are ways to determine if a round fired is a reload or factory load, but would our overworked, underpaid police force bother to get that far into the details? If they know who the shooter is, who the shootee is, and have the gun, bullet case, and bullet (or fragments) in hand, what else would they care about?

Chris

[Gewehr98]

It's yellow, and says POLICE ONLY, 110gr JHP .357 Magnum. I guess it was pretty spicy stuff for it's day, but my 158gr .357 Magnum Desert Eagle handloads would probably eat it for lunch now.

I trust my handloading skills, but carry factory ammo for defense. Between the criminal and (sadly inevitable) civil courts, why give the opposition any chance to make you suffer for what should be a clear-cut case of self-defense?

Mtnbkr, trust me, I toured an ATF crime lab when they offered to hire me away from my Air Force forensic lab job back in 1998. The ATF had deep pockets after the Oklahoma City bombing, and their lab showed it. I collect odd ammo, guns, and reloading tools/components. My collection pales in comparison to the reference standards they showed me that day. I struck up a conversation with one of the technicians, he had RCBS and Hornady reloading presses set up right there, and an astounding selection of components to assemble duplicates of anything they found out on the street. Then there's the various chromatographs, x-ray diffractometers, scanning electron microscopes, optical stereomicroscope comparators, and chemical analysis techniques like thin-layer chromatography. All stuff I was used to in the Air Force lab. I was more in awe of the reference standards, and mentioned how jealous I was, because I usually could only afford a pound or two of IMR4895 at a time. It turns out that he was a reloader at home, too, and agreed with me. I was thinking to myself that if I got hired there, maybe I could use their lab setup to make some serious match-grade ammo after hours. ;)

This ATF forensic lab (rather well hidden, I might add) was in Kalifornia where I had been stationed for 10 years. I let the Air Force bribe me into taking an assignment in Florida, so I snubbed the ATF offer and am finishing up my 20 years active-duty time before I go look for a post-retirement McJob.

So yes, they do know what to look for when it comes to evidence, and I have no doubt that state and local crime labs have those capabilities, too.

[YammyMonkey]

Both for me. I don't reload currently but wouldn't have a problem with loading my own defensive ammo if I did reload.

[williamcrane]

I voted for Factory for legal reasons - I actually trust myself.:rolleyes:

[manyironsinfire]

GEWERHR98, You my friend have pretty much resolved any doubts I had .. I too have been reloading for some time and can produce any defensive load I want and do it as well as any factory round..But your statements convince me to carry factory only.

[Johnny Guest]

The forensics labs definitely DO have the capability to determine if ammo has been reloaded. Do they care? This is another matter entirely.

I don't know the protocols on shooting investigations in other areas, but in my immediate vicinity, all the evidence goes to either Fort Worth PD lab, the Dallas County Forensics lab, or to Department of Public Safety lab in Austin.

Routine examination includes comparison of ALL evidence submitted with the property and evidence sheets prepared by the submitting agency. Believe me, ANY error or discrepancy gets resolved. This could include simply transposing two digits in the serial number. If bullets removed at autopsy are clearly HydraShoks, but the fired brass taken from a revolver is, say, R-P head stamped, it draws attention.

Bullets are normally examined to match them to the empty cases. Extractor and ejector marks are resolved to type of firearm submitted - - or to indicate to the investigators what kind of firearm they should seek. Cases are examined under a low power microscope to see if there are die marks to indicate reloading. I recall one case when the firearms examiner pointed out that cartridge cases had been hand loaded using two different sizing dies.

In another case, the examiners indicated that the muzzle blast pattern on a T-shirt was inconsistent with the type powder used in the factory loaded ammo and empty cases submitted.

A part of any hand loaded ammo submitted is pulled down; the components are weighed and identified. If asked, the examiner can usually provide examples of standard loading data using those components.

AND - - the examiner writes up a very detailed report of his/her findings. It is then up to the agency investigators and the prosecutors what they want to do with it.

Lots of interesting stuff can and does happen in the lab. Firearms examiners do a LOT more than simply say if THIS bullet was fired from THAT gun.

I don't worry about MY hand loads being used to show that I want to load up Sooper Dooper massively destructive anti personnel ammo. I stick pretty close to published loading data. I choose to use factory ammo largely because of agency regulations against using other than factory ammo. And, since they issue me good quality ammo of proven performance, I have no personal stake in failing to comply with the S.O.P.s.

Best to all - -
Johnny

[E=MC^2]

Handloaded. Since I started reloading, I dont spend the $$ for premium defense loads any more. I just load 'em.

I don't believe there are any legal consequences. My reloads use the same components as factory ammo, and at the same velocity. So what's the difference?
Same here. "Shooter liability" is a myth started by Adoodi and the ammunition manufacturers to make money.

Lots of people recommend Corbon. I use the same Sierra bullets as Corbon. My preferred powder also has lower flash qualities. I get to witness every case being full of powder before the bullet is placed on top of it. I can adjust penetration by increasing/decreasing velocity. I can confirm the reliability of each 5,000 primers of a certain lot#, not a few factory boxes at a time.

My carry round is my range round and my range round is my carry round. When my range rounds have proved to be 100% reliable the same is true of the carry rounds. I can handload premium defensive ammo for less than most factory range ammunition. I keep my 9mm load within the same velocities of current factory 9mm defensive velocities. They are not some ".357 Sig wannabes". If eveidence were required, I have tablets full of recorded reloading data gathered over the years.

I am a handloader and shooter that shoots handloads.

[Double Naught Spy]

Okay, since y'all aren't letting this off thread topic on legality die, let me sum up part of the thread. First, nobody has shown that load type (factory, hand, reload) has ever had a negative impact on a criminal case in a justified self defense shooting. If justified for the use of lethal force, a ball point pen, Louisville slugger (hand turned on your own lathe or store bought), handload or factory ammo.

As noted, the information has been brought up in a CIVIL case. As noted, it doesn't mean it will impact the case in a manner successful to the opposition. You can bring up just about anything you want in a civil case and arguments made in a variety of directions. Factory ball ammo is a for bone crushing. Factory hollowpoint ammo is for doing maximum tissue damage and creating maximum pain. Hand/Reloas are super killer ammo, propably loaded to horrible levels. You shoot somebody, count on getting sued. You might not, but it is best to be wary. You will be sued in civil court. You have to be alive to be sued in civil court for you to endure the experience yourself (or at least conscious and not brain damaged).

If carrying factory ammo allows you to fight at your best potential, that is what you need to carry. If some hand or reload is what you need to be at your fighting best, then that is what you need to carry. Carrying is about protecting your life, not worrying about lawyers and and unsubstantiated lawsuits that MIGHT happen IF you are EVER in a self sefense shooting.

[popbang]

Double Naught Spy, very nicely stated.

[kimbernut]

Strictly handloads. Carry that with which you practice. Speer Gold Dots and Remington Golden Sabers in all..380 Auto,.38 special,9mm,.357 Mag.,.45 ACP. If you are set up to reload and you are confident in the quality of your reloads why in the world would you pay for 20 rounds a price for which you can reload 150-300 rounds(depending on caliber).
Deadly force is deadly force. Even Ayoob himself has begun to back off on this topic stating that there has been no evidence to support it.

[Mannlicher]

I favor Federal HydroShocks for my .45 Autos, .40 Autos, and 9mm, but I go with my hand loads for my .45 Colt and .357/.38 revolvers. For my Mountain Gun, Model 29, I carry CorBon 165 Grain.

[Gewehr98]

Double Naught Spy has part of the equation right.

You shoot somebody, count on getting sued. You might not, but it is best to be wary. You will be sued in civil court.

Carrying is about protecting your life, not worrying about lawyers and and unsubstantiated lawsuits that MIGHT happen IF you are EVER in a self sefense shooting.

Here's a good one from another thread here on THR:

A felon will kill you quickly. An assault lawyer will kill you over a long protracted period.

You've made the commitment to train, get the license, and carry, which means you've also made the commitment to defend yourself or loved ones against an attack. If you're like many of the forum members, you've also done some research on what's needed to effectively stop that attack, in one way, shape, or form. That includes the firearm and the choice of ammo. Great. Good for you. You're alive now, you've been cleared of any wrongdoing by the criminal courts, it's ruled a justifiable homicide. Now you're ready to be served on a silver platter to the attorney of your attacker's family in civil court. Don't say it won't happen. To your horror, his arguments about your desire to go ventilate somebody with your super-duper homebrew ammo, and whatever other character asassination he does on you, sways the majority of the jury. (Did you remember that this is civil court, and that a unanimous decision is not necessary for a ruling?) The judge finds that your attacker's civil rights have been violated, and you have to cough up a million bucks or so. Think the NRA is gonna help bail you out on this one?

Or, you could've swallowed your handloading pride just a smidgen when making that CCW commitment, and spent a few bucks for a box of quality factory carry ammo. It's just a little extra cheap insurance that you won't be spared from the frying pan for the later fire.

Unless, of course, they don't make defensive ammo for your carry gun. I've got a 1912 Steyr-Hahn that needs handloads to keep running. If it were my only handgun, and my only defensive carry piece, I could *maybe* see it. Once the course instructors for the carry permit got done with me and the stripper clips needed to reload the darned thing... ;)

Having said that, I do indeed handload practice ammo for my carry guns that pretty much duplicates factory defense ammo in ballistics and recoil. But when I'm done practicing, the factory stuff gets chambered for carry.

[E=MC^2]

You shoot somebody, count on getting sued.
Actually, when you add up states' Grand Jury trials involving justifiable shootings, with the number of civil gun-ralated cases tried nationwide, the chances are less than 1% that you will be "getting sued".

So DON'T count on it.

Locally, of 11 justifiable shootings over the last 10 years, none of them went on to civil suits.

[BluesBear]

OK, let's inject a few facts here. If any of you have read any of my posts you might have noticed I usually don't give away any excess personal details.

I don't post photos of my guns. I don't post lists of everyting of value I own. I don't tell my entire life story. I tend to be a semi-private person.

But this much I will divulge. The last 2 shots I fired into a human being were handloads. Not a factory duplicate handload either. A 148 CWBH (that's a hollow base wadcutter loaded backwards) over a stout fast burning powder tailored for maxium performance from a 2" barrel. There just isn't anybodys factory load that even comes close to being similar. The only thing said to me about it was by the first arrival EMTs. They asked "Do you have any idea how many times he was shot?" I said "To the best of my knowledge twice." The first response police officer asked me quietly, after looking at the wounds, "What the hell did you shoot him with? Where can I get some?"

The subject of ammunition was never again brought up. There was no attempt at filing a civil action either.

And that's all I am going to say on that matter.


I personally know of at least six other self defense shootings involving both sworn police officers as well as private citizens, that involved handloaded ammunition. The type of ammunition was never brought up in Coroner's Inquests, Grand Jury hearings, criminal trials or civil actions.

Either you are justified in using deadly force or you are not. There is no such thing as a right to wound. There is no right to shoot someone just a little.
If you are justified in using deadly force it doesn't matter if it is a .17HMR or a .50BMG. Or a baseball bat, or a three wood, or a PR-24 or a Swiss Army knife, or a brick.

Worry about identifying the threat. Worry about being able to hit your target. Worry about not having enough gun. But NEVER, ever worry about shooting them with too much bullet. Hells Bells I'd be carrying an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator if I could.

[surfinUSA]

In a good shooting there should be no trial. The State Attorney should be able to determine that no charges will be filed based on the facts of the police investigation unless a grand jury inquiry is mandated in your jurisdiction. Even in a good shooting count on being sued civilly.

E=Mc, just because there wasn't a trial doesn't mean there wasn't a suit somewhere near 90% of civil cases are settled before trial. Just because they are settled doesn't mean they didn't cost somebody big money. And even if you win it will still cost you big money. Defense lawyers aren't cheap and civil cases are very expensive.

I only use factory ammo. I know it works and Federal has the time and money to do more testing than I could ever dream of. Let their experts come in an testify as to what components were used and why.

[silent one]

Well, I guess it goes to prove that in this day in age, the pen IS more mighty than the sword. I long for the time when there weren't so many variables as to what is right, and what is wrong. :(

good luck, and be safe.



SILENT ONE

[Double Naught Spy]

Gewehr98, please cite just one case where the ammo in question, being some home brew, was the factor of the civil case. Yes, ammo type MIGHT be brought up in a civil case, but what you cited was simply Ayoobian paranoia propogated over the last 30 years as something that MIGHT happen to a person in a court of law. You supported your argument with possibilities for which nobody has proof. In short, your argument is supported by a gun folklore bit of mythology.

Feel free to prove me wrong. So far, nobody in this thread or anywhere else on THR has managed to do so. Ayoob has had 30 years or so to justify his paranoid claims and they may some day come true, but as of yet, they haven't. Given all the self defense shootings that have occurred in that time and no history of such nonsense, I would be inclined to believe that it is the LEAST of self defense issues to be concerned about.

If you are that concerned about it, then do yourself a favor, and this goes for everyone who believes their handloads or other ammo might get them sued to hell and killed slowly over time by a lawyer, GET LIABILITY INSURANCE. Don't compromise your ability to protect yourself because of an Ayoobian Fallacy.

I like that, Ayoobian Fallacy. Others of his include 1911s hard to defend in court for self defense, trigger jobs will cause the jury to go against you, and many many more.

[Gewehr98]

It got you so peeved you started another thread on it, and it appears you have no great love for Mas Ayoob.

Fair enough.

I don't have to prove you wrong. Even if there was one, I don't have to cite a case file. Matter of fact, I don't owe you anything. This is an internet forum, where people hide behind their ISP's and yell stuff like Ultimate Shotgun or Glock Rulez. If you don't like what happens, you either ask a moderator for help or add the guy to your ignore list. You don't demand stuff based on your dislike of their requested opinion, like this particular thread. Comprende'?

Now, as posted above, You've already said this MAY come true, but it doesn't concern you, it's down there in the weeds. So you're set, right? Why are you so aggravated, you've chosen your course of action, nothing should bother you. But it torques you that others choose a legally safer course of action as part of their defensive plan. Maybe my responses above confused you.

Ok, let me spell it out. You want to load hollow-base wadcutters backwards in a .357 Magnum in a case full of WW296 as defense loads, knock yourself out. Wanna seal a drop of mercury or curare in that big open-mouthed wadcutter to better your odds of permanently anchoring the bad guy? Enjoy. Heck, you can also carry a Thunder 5 revolver or a snubby .454 Cassull, one-shot stops should be the norm. Great. That's your own personal investment in risk management, you've made the choice and are willing to live with it.

You're betting that the ammo you made for carry and defense will not only stop the attack on your person, but will also pass scrutiny in this day and age when people win large awards for spilling coffee in their laps. Or you're betting that nobody will pay attention to what was used, they'll be too focused on other aspects of the case.

It's gotta be the status quo, because nobody's ever been penalized so far, right? Of course, that's just like the fact that there's a lot of drunk drivers on the roads who never seem to get busted, the law of averages somehow always plays in their favor.

Now, in your expert legal experience, can you unequivocally, without reservation or hesitation, guarantee somewhere down the road that the ammunition aspect of the defendant's (your) actions in a civil court shooting case won't be brought up as an argument in the trial? In other words, the surviving family of the now-deceased bad guy hired The Dream Team for attorneys, and they want a piece of you in a bad way. Can you predict their course of action during the trial?

If you can, you're clairvoyant, and need to stop wasting your time here on THR, because there's a TV show with your name on it.

If you can't, you have absolutely no right to denigrate somebody's own risk-management choice in carry ammo just because it isn't a handload. They've also made a conscientious decision, and it leans on the side of legal safety. It's a very small investment that could prevent a lifetime of grief otherwise. Or would you like to give the opposition ammo of their own when your very livelihood is at stake?

As a forensics type, I know that the federal and state crime labs have the ability to tell the difference between factory loaded and handloaded ammo. They have certain rules of engagement with respect to criminal court cases. Unfortunately, the civil courts, with private attorneys, don't play so nice, and they can hire independent analysis labs to do the same forensics. Just another thing to think about when choosing a handgun and ammo combination for personal defense, because even though you may survive the first attack...

Note: I did not call anybody an Ayoob Paranoid here. People make choices. Why is it so hard to respect them, or at least question their choices without ridicule? :(

[Steve in PA]

And you can be sued for using hot loaded Cor-Bon type ammo.....sued for using +P ammo.......+P+ ammo, etc......all so much more powerful than "normal" factory ammo.

I carry Federal ammo, because its my duty ammo. When I retire I will carry my handloaded ammo.

If I'm reloading a normal factory bullet, in my case it would be Hornaday XTP...the same bullet that would be in a box of factory ammo....using data published in a reloading manual.....let someone try and sue. I'd love to face an attorney trying to use "reloaded" ammo against me.

If I'm justified in defending myself, my family or another person I can use whatever I have to do that, a gun, knife, bazooka.......or a brick. A justified use of force is a justified use of force. If someone is in my house and I need to protect my wife......he's going to sue me because I picked up the tv and bounced it off his head instead of a lamp??

As already stated, lawyers can and will sue for anything. But I'm not going to change the way I do things.

[Mayfool]

This thread is beginning to smell like a three day old fish..We have people like Brady, Boxster, Clinton, Kerry, the million mom marchers, the church's the gun buy backers and many police depts.. not wanting us to carry a firearm let alone use bullets in them.. So please, children, lets have a time out and all say OUMMMMMMMM...:cool: O.K? carry what you want but stay in yellow..

[blades67]

I load my own to save money. I can buy 100 Gold Dot bullets for just a couple dollars more than the cost of a box of 20 cartridges.

[GaryM]

I roll my own. I had a discussion with John Lott (Unintended Consequences) about this and he told me he did researched this very subject and there has never been a case where someone was prosecuted for using handloads. He also said this was a rumor started years ago after Ayoob Massad wrote an article speculating about this. Apparently the rumor mill went to town over the article and now it is accepted as "fact" not to use handloads for self defense.

[Pumpkinheaver]

I carry factory ammo but it's not that I don't trust my self. I don't trust the legal system!

[P95Carry]

Just adding ..... whilst the ''myth'', or ''legend'' even, over the legal issues possibility exists .... as Pumpkinheaver says ... I don't trust the legal system! Thus ... maybe a feeling for many - ''I'd rather not chance being the first test case''!!:p

Paranoia? No not really .. ''playing safe'' ... probably.