Shipping a Handgun to yourself (under 21)


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Wilsonm180
January 12, 2012, 02:11 AM
Hello,

I realize that this topic has been touched upon, but I am looking for particular information.

I am currently a college student in North Dakota prior to this being a Virginian resident. My parents gifted me a pistol upon graduation of high school, and I am now looking to ship this to me in N.D. The problem I run into is that while it is perfectly legal for me to own a handgun at 18, it's is illegal for a FFL to give me possession of a pistol. How do I get the pistol to myself in N.D. from VA? I know I can ship a firearm to myself through contract carrier per the BATF, but due to carrier policies they only ship to FFLs. Is there anything I can do? Any information would be extremely helpful!

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Wilsonm180
January 12, 2012, 03:11 AM
Thank you for the post. I take the link to say that I can ship the handgun to myself? As long as I declare the package a handgun?

Telekinesis
January 12, 2012, 03:21 AM
Nope, if a FFL puts it into his bound book, the only way you'll get it back is with a background check (which you won't pass because you're not 21). How are you getting to ND? If you are driving, just bring it in the car. If you're flying, put it in your checked luggage and declare it to the airline (following all their rules like the gun being unloaded, limited ammo in the bag, hard side locked case etc.) and just pick it up with your checked bag.

Wilsonm180
January 12, 2012, 03:24 AM
I would be taking the train, and carrying it with me would not be an option.

David G.
January 12, 2012, 06:00 AM
This would Amtrak, correct? Won't you have checked luggage? Put it in a hardsided durable case similar to what one would do when flying.
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1248542758975

Wilsonm180
January 12, 2012, 11:42 AM
Thank you all for the replies. The question i have is does the Federal Government have anything against shipping a handgun to yourself? I know that i can ship a firearm to myself for any lawful sporting activities, but does this include a handgun?

NavyLCDR
January 12, 2012, 11:44 AM
Welcome to THR,Wilson. Who told you that common carriers only ship to FFL's?

UPS POLICY:

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/res.../firearms.html

Unfortunately, their "policy" conflicts with their published "UPSŪ TARIFF/TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF SERVICE FOR PACKAGE SHIPMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES Effective January 2, 2012"

http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_us.pdf

Printed page 5:

3.6 Firearms and Ammunition

UPS accepts packages containing firearms
(as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and
Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States
Code) only (a) between licensed importers,
licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers,
and licensed collectors (as defined in Title
18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code),
and government agencies; and (b) where
not otherwise prohibited by federal, state,
or local law from (i) an individual to a
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer or licensed collector; and
(ii) from a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed
collector to an individual. The shipper shall
comply with and shall ensure that each
shipment containing firearms complies with
all federal, state, and local laws applicable
to the shipper, recipient, and package.

According to that, at least the sender or recipient must have an FFL (UPS terms only, not statute).

CoRoMo
January 12, 2012, 11:57 AM
The question i have is does the Federal Government have anything against shipping a handgun to yourself?
No. You can ship, not mail, it to yourself without violating federal law. You'll likely end up violating the shipper's policy/use terms, but nothing illegal would have occurred.
...does this include a handgun?
Yes. You can ship, not mail, the handgun to yourself legally. If you break the shipper's terms of use, AND you end up having to file a claim due to a problem with the shipment, the shipper is no longer liable.

NavyLCDR
January 12, 2012, 12:47 PM
Also note when shipping a firearm to yourself in another state you are required by Federal law to notify, in writing, the common or contract carrier that the shipment contains a firearm, unless you happen to possess an FFL.

tyeo098
January 12, 2012, 01:07 PM
Unless you disassemble the handgun and ship it as 'firearm parts' correct?

Because while the receiver to the ATF is the 'firearm' to shippers its just a part.
Ship the frame & parts in one box, and the slide & parts in another.

NavyLCDR
January 12, 2012, 01:07 PM
So,Navy,this is a new policy that went into effect just 10 days ago.If so, they are making life more difficult all the time.

Their official tarrif, terms and conditions of service have read that way for several months. The same wording was in the previous edition, I am not sure what the effective date was on the previous edition.

NavyLCDR
January 12, 2012, 01:10 PM
So, here is a question:

What about shipping the handgun to an FFL in the desired state solely for the purpose of customization or repair, and then simply showing up in person to receive the returned firearm or suitable replacement? ;)

NavyLCDR
January 12, 2012, 01:50 PM
Unless you disassemble the handgun and ship it as 'firearm parts' correct?

Because while the receiver to the ATF is the 'firearm' to shippers its just a part.
Ship the frame & parts in one box, and the slide & parts in another.

Not correct. Following that advice could end up with you receiving meals, room and board compliments of the US Department of Justice.

First, you would have to declare the frame or receiver to the common or contract carrier, in writing, as a firearm because Federal law defines the frame or receiver as a firearm and Federal law requires the written notification (shipping out of state to a non-FFL).

Second, at least UPS, and to my knowledge FEDEX and USPS use the same definition of firearm as in Federal law:

http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_us.pdf

3.6 Firearms and Ammunition
UPS accepts packages containing firearms
(as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and
Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States
Code)
...

Handguns (as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921) will be
accepted for transportation only via UPS
Next Day Air Services.
...
–Firearm parts, which do not constitute
firearms as defined under federal law
(including without limitation Title 18,
Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the
United States Code),

Still want to try it? I would not recommend it.

FEDEX:
http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guide/terms/express-ground/index.html

FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:

USPS:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm

12.1 Firearms
12.1.1 Definitions
[11-7-11] The terms used in this standard are defined as follows:

a. Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm.

Let me guess, it was a gun store employee who provided you with such false information?

Wilsonm180
January 12, 2012, 03:03 PM
The problem with picking it up from an FFL is that they cannot give into my posession a handgun or handgun ammunition since i am under 21. If i send it through an FFL in Virginia, can it be picked up at my address in N.D.?

CoRoMo
January 12, 2012, 03:32 PM
If i send it through an FFL in Virginia, can it be picked up at my address in N.D.?
You can ship it to yourself legally. Is there a reason you'd prefer an FFL ship it to you? The licensee can't mail the handgun out of state to anyone other than another licensee.

Librarian
January 12, 2012, 04:08 PM
Prior UPS tariff, July of 2011, introduced the 'FFL has to be in the loop somewhere' language. FedEx has had that requirement longer.

NavyLCDR
January 12, 2012, 04:27 PM
The problem with picking it up from an FFL is that they cannot give into my posession a handgun or handgun ammunition since i am under 21. If i send it through an FFL in Virginia, can it be picked up at my address in N.D.?

If you deliver your handgun to an FFL for any reason other than solely for customization or repair, you cannot get that handgun back from them until you are 21. If you derliver your handgun to an FFL solely for the purpose of customization or repair, they may return that handgun, and even a replacement, directly to you, in person or by shipping it to your address, even across state lines, with no form 4473 or background check required, even before you are 21 years old.

You can ship it to yourself legally. Is there a reason you'd prefer an FFL ship it to you?

Well, if it is a handgun, it is illegal for a private party to mail. It is now against both UPS and FEDEX company policy. So what choice is there, other than to hand carry when travelling, or maybe a contract freight company such as Yellow Freight? I don't know, maybe you could do it counter-to-counter airline cargo?

CoRoMo
January 12, 2012, 04:32 PM
That's why I changed from 'ship' to 'mail' in my post (keeping all statements accurate). :D

Back to my first post, if he's not going to haul it with him, he can ship it legally. He might end up violating the shipper's policy of course.

It's like the time you shipped that Taurus via ground, you did your part, but the 'clerk' messed the rest up. He can always hope for that! :D

swinokur
January 13, 2012, 08:31 AM
so which takes precedence, the Policy or the printed tariff rule? They both cannot be correct can they.?

cane
January 13, 2012, 11:24 AM
Just for info, scroll down this article and note what "Quinn" was convicted of. http://www.ledgernews.com/news/503-march-17-2010/1722-three-canton-residents-sentenced-in-federal-gun-trafficking-case

Wilsonm180
January 13, 2012, 12:00 PM
@cane- that takes things out of proportion. They were involved with weapons trafficking to felons. I would guarantee that the ATF found the guns before an investigation happened, and that the situation was not based solely on the " not notifying the shipper"

hermannr
January 13, 2012, 08:15 PM
Wilsonm180: If you are going on the train, pack it in your baggage. Amtrac will get it there for you. Just read the rules as to how it is supposed to be packaged.

cane
January 15, 2012, 12:01 PM
Regardless of the other charges, Quinn was convicted of "to cause firearms to be shipped without notifying the contract carrier". So obviously it is against federal law to ship a firearm without telling the carrier what it is.

medalguy
January 15, 2012, 08:36 PM
How about this scenario: The handgun is shipped to FFL in Virginia for transfer to his father, father signs 4473, then gifts the handgun back to the son. Legal?

This is the only possibility other than carrying it in checked luggage aboard Amtrak.

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