[twoblink]

AR's or M1Carbines? What are my other (don't say Mini14!!) choices for a semi in a .223?

One of the factors I also consider is, SHTF, which rifle is easier to teach someone to use...

I'm leaning towards the M1Carbine personally, but I'm sure this will start a forest fire of a flame war..

Can someone name a war we've won with M16's??

[Nightcrawler]

Boy, you're just trawling for trouble this morning, eh? LOL

[Wildalaska]

M1 Carbine is a great little civilian SHTF rifle especially for the un gun friendly tyros..

My thoroughly un gun wife likes it.....

But in the hands of a trained killer like myself, its the m16!

WildooorahAlaska

[Hkmp5sd]

http://www.steyr-aug.com/images/aug_20/AUG%20Green%2020.JPG

[dude]

We used M-16s to win the Gulf War and free the people of Afganistan from Taliban rule while breaking the back of Al Queda (sp?)

I'd choose (and I do) a .30 Carbine. If not that than a Mini-14 GB with some factory 20 round mags.

[3 gun]

I prefer the M1 carbine.

[twoblink]

The Bulpup is very tactical looking.. hehehe..

I have found that the M1Carbine works well for most women, better then AR's. I have found that the M1C is one of the fastest shouldering weapons...

[Will Fennell]

Twoblink,
Both are neat rifles for sure. I "grew up" with a M1 Carbine as our family house/truck rifle. It was my campanion when I was very young on alot of adventures in the woods and swamps of South Carolina growing up. Your right, the Carbine is easy to handle, and fast to the shoulder, but as soon as I could handle a larger rifle, I moved up.

The only problem with the Carbine is the cartridge. I know folks have lamented the fact for years, and alot of it is "legend" from wartime accounts, but in my case it is experience on shooting game. In a word, its performance ....well Oleg asked us to clean up our language....is VERY sub par. Even with soft points. Its not effective. Heck, its wasn't even very effective on feral dogs.

The best way to sum this up, after shooting 20 or so different animals, from 'coons to small wild pigs, when I leveled the Carbine on something to shoot, I always knew I needed to be prepared to shoot several more times.

Later, Dad picked up a Mini-14. While not exactly a cannon, it was decisively more effective than the .30 Carbine on game. With good bullets, it was even better. But even the plain ol' M193 ball, it did alot more damage than ANY .30 Carbine load I tried.

My Grandad was a retired surgeon, a hunter, and a reloader, so we were always doing post-mortems to compare damage and bullet performance. The .30 carb. was wayyy behind the .223....especially when the distance was over 50 yards.

I am with you on the Mini 14:scrutiny: I think I would look at the Armalite AR180b for a lower cost, easy to use, semi auto .223 launcher.

[Tamara]

Can someone name a war we've won with M16's??

Can you name a 20th Century war won with rifles?

Anyhow, you get a lot of CQB out Taipei way? :confused:

[Skunkabilly]

Anyhow, you get a lot of CQB out Taipei way?

He's under surveillance by the BGs and only has a tactical baseball bat to defend himself :fire: :cuss:

[Nero Steptoe]

twoblink: What kind of weapon(s) did you use the last time you were involved in CQC? Were you dissatisfied with the results?? Apparently, whatever you normally used kept you alive or you wouldn't be posting this thread.

[twoblink]

Tamara,

Skunk has it pretty summed up; Being fishbowled by the perp, and all I've got is a T-ball bat and my cleaver...

Looking to pick up a Sjambok and a set of throwing knives.. CQB? I anticipate it!! The thief is going to pay.. To quote the movie Ocean's Eleven, "First he'll kill ya, then he'll go to work on ya.."

Nero Steptoe, Last time I had CQB? Actually, I racked a shotgun (drunk guys from upstairs came down after I had an exchange of words) The most recognized sound in the world... and for some reason, the sound of a shotgun makes people run... of course they called the cops on me... but last time I checked, it was legal to rack MY shotgun in MY house...

And the time before that? A Step-wrap armbar into a front hip throw, and then a japanese armbar.. the guy walked away with a bloody nose and a wounded pride..

I'm preparing for CQB though; I know there are TWO thieves... As blades of any length are legal to carry here in Taiwan, going shopping after I get some new years money this week :D

[BigG]

I think Somalia was a decisive victory for the AR15/M16. 1,000 skinnies DOA, v. 19 Americans. You be the judge. :fire:

[Tamara]

I see.

Two thieves.

Assuming you were back in the US of A, I'd vote that the best tool for that kind of CQB would be a full-auto M4 with a Beta-C mag, a laser, a phaser, and a windspeed indicator, in two-tone, with some carbon fiber, as it is obviously too tactical a situation for a 4" K-frame, a 1911, or a Remington 870.

Ain't you and Skunk getting a bit carried away with the TacticalSHTFTEOTWAWKI stuff?

;)

(Anyhow, the wood stock on an M1 Carbine would clash horribly with your knee-pads, camelbak, Pro-Tec helmet, Bolle goggles and all the other accoutrements necessary to don before you check and see if that's the neighbor's cat in your garage... ;) :D )

[Skunkabilly]

Assuming you were back in the US of A, I'd vote that the best tool for that kind of CQB would be a full-auto M4 with a Beta-C mag, a laser, a phaser, and a windspeed indicator, in two-tone, with some carbon fiber, as it is obviously too tactical a situation for a 4" K-frame, a 1911, or a Remington 870.

Tamara, they have carbon fiber two-tone ARs?!?!? :confused: Send me a link!!

Ain't you and Skunk getting a bit carried away with the TacticalSHTFTEOTWAWKI stuff?

No, Twoblink is, he just likes talking about me :D

(Anyhow, the wood stock on an M1 Carbine would clash horribly with your knee-pads, camelbak, Pro-Tec helmet, Bolle goggles and all the other accoutrements necessary to don before you check and see if that's the neighbor's cat in your garage... )

Bolle goggles...Tamara Tamara tsk tsk, only Oakley has faux carbon fiber goggles!

[s&w 24]

If you can't make up your mind get a M-1 carbine and load it with 22 sabot ammo then you have a nice light wieght rifle and skinny little .223 bullets.:neener:

[Marshall]

M1 Carbine has my vote.

[Onslaught]

Anyhow, the wood stock on an M1 Carbine would clash horribly with your knee-pads, camelbak, Pro-Tec helmet, Bolle goggles and all the other accoutrements necessary to don before you check and see if that's the neighbor's cat in your garage...
Thank God (and Mall Ninjas) for Choate :D

If Tactical black don't suit ya, they've got Tactical as heck Camo too! :scrutiny:

[DaveH]

Can someone name a war we've won with M16's??

Can anyone name a war were the M1 Carbine even came close?

[Handy]

My Dad said Sgt. York won WWI with a 1911.

[dude]

If I remember correctly, the M1 Carbine sucessfully killed a few Germans, Japanese, Chi Coms and North Koreans.

................and seemd to defend my Father's life well enough during WWII

[Destructo6]

I don't think there's much of a decision to make: I'd select the AR.

I'd prefer a M1 Carbine over a pistol, but that's about it.

[CAP]

I've got both, so I'm covered either way. :D

Close in though I'd probably grab the .30 carbine. There is a full 30-rounder waiting beside it.

[dude]

it was made to replace a pistol in the first place......and I'd rather have it than ANY pistol if there was a problem!

[CWL]

We've won every major infantry battle since introduction of M16 in Vietnam.

Who wins wars nowadays is determined politically. Military victories clouded by political/moral/ethical issues include: Vietnam, Iraq '91, Somalia.

Preferred CQB weapon nowadays is M16/M4/AR15s -some holdouts with 9mm/10mm H&Ks.

Who issues an M1 Carbine for CQB? It won't penetrate bodyarmor. .223 beats the .30 M1 ball in lethality. At least a .223 round probably will yaw & shatter. Don't count on any amazing ballistics with M1 ball.

[dude]

........as it is a pistol round and has never claimed to be anything more

[Jeff White]

Skunk,
Go get some training. 3 days spent with Jim Crews, Randy Cain, Pat Rogers, Clint Smith...will better prepare you to do CQB then having 5K to spend on the kewlest M4rgery with all the kewl hang on accessories.

You fight with your brain and your spirit. The gun is but a tool. The AR 15 would be the better choice for several reasons. But you'll stand a better chance of posting the story of your next real CQB fight here, if you spend the money on training and ammuntion and are armed with a NEF single shot.

While I would pick the AR15 over the M1 carbine every time, if I had to pick just one person to back me up, and my choice was the guy who invested 5K in the kewlest M4gery found on AR15.com but who fired 100 rounds a year through it, or the guy who had an M1 Carbine, and who religously practiced with it and who had dropped $300 on good quality training, I'm taking the guy with the carbine to watch my back.

Jeff

PS Twoblink; Name me one battle the M14 won...;)

[MarineTech]

AR15 or M1 carbine. Hmmmm... Well, I've got both. I'll admit that people who were issued the M1 carbine either loved or hated it. There seems to be no in between.

The AR15 is a good combat gun and the .223 does have an edge over the .30 carbine. Now here's the "BUTs"

M1 Carbine draws fewer looks by the sheeple. It's not one of those "Evil Black rifles."

M1 Carbine, in my opinion, is much easier to clean and maintain. It generally takes me about 3-4 hours to do a detail cleaning on my Bushmaster after a range session. Way too many nooks and crannies for carbon and crud to hide in. The M1 carbine generally takes me about 45 minutes.

With those mentioned, I need to add that my M1 carbine usually rides in my trunk as an adjunct to my carry pistol.

[twoblink]

Actually, If given a choice, I'd rather not fight, but you know, bad guys in my house, steal my stuff, threatening my neighborhood, maybe my life... He's going to have to pay..

Tamara, you know how parents use to dole out some punishment to set the kid straight? Well, obviously these two kids got skipped, and so I guess I'm going to be the designated "educator"...

[twoblink]

Awe screw it, I'll just buy another M1A in a scout configuration; .223?? 308!!!

[curt]

It generally takes me about 3-4 hours to do a detail cleaning on my Bushmaster after a range session. :D

[twoblink]

Curt, just to be fair...

I owned and SKS for two years, and I don't know if I recall actually cleaning it!! My friend owns an AK, and I don't think he's cleaned it yet...

[goon]

Well, if we are talking in the dark, on my turf...
I say neither.
A big knife has no report, no muzzle flash, and it can't jam.
:D
Seriously, I would go with the AR, but only for the caliber.
It would be a moot point though. If I shoot someone in my house, and they don't go down, guess what?
They will get shot again, and again, and again.....
The caliber isn't really a big deal.

[Jeff White]

That's right, you don't have to spend four hours detail cleaning your AR15 after every shooting session. In fact you are probably doing it more harm then good. More weapons are worn out from excessive cleaning then are ever worn out from shooting them.

Since the adoption of CLP you really only need to keep the AR "wet". The CLP will clean the entire time it's on the metal.

You don't need to clean your AR15 immediately after firing so it will continue to function. You'll be surprised how long they will go before you will make then stop functioning from being too dirty.

Jeff

[Sven]

M1 Carbines in California - those ARs are too evil for us - unless you were into this sort of thing a while back and got one in before the ban.

More weapons are worn out from excessive cleaning then are ever worn out from shooting them.

I'd love to see objective backing to this statement.

[106rr]

According to Doc GKR -- 30 carbine with soft point will penetrate about 16 IN. and expand to .55 -- .63 in ballistic gelatin.
Big Jim Cirillo and his squad in NYPD used the 30 carbine in some of their fights -- said it worked great -- they used ball as per dept rules.
According to 106rr -- 30 carbine is better due to limited legal budget and residence in CA. I would hate to take the black rifle to the liberal Grand Jury or DA in this county.
I used the early M16s in 67/68 -- they didn't work. The new ones are better but they still jam alot in competition.

[Sven]

Seriously, enough of this 'one or the other' stuff - I figured it out. The M1 Carbine is going to be my BACKUP rifle for working mall security.

Between your MBR and your pistol, you have your BACKUP rifle, get it?

Everyone always talks about a backup pistol...

Only problem now is finding a sligning solution to carry both at the same time so they don't bounce into each other when I scale and rapell buildings during high-risk retail entry. Would help if it looked stylish - because I'm not always in high-risk situations, you know.

OK, so I'm 220 lbs, so I can probably carry:

-M1A (4 20-round mags and a bandolier)
-M1 Carbine (+2-30 rounders +4-15 rounders, bandolier)
-Valtro and + 2 mags
-P32 and 1 spare mag
-IR Goggles

Darnit... where's my Blackhawk catalog?

What's that sound? Is the sky falling?

AHHH!

Seriously, For CQB in CA, I'd be holding the Carbine with a 30-round USGI mag with a fresh spring, stoked with Georgia Arms hollowpoints, with the Valtro ready in the holster and the M1A on my back. Better yet, a shotgun.

Of course, I would do all this in style, wearing the latest in 'low drag' fashion from the designers you all know and love. After saving dozens of lives at the Mall, I'd pull out my carbon fiber kevlar-plated cigarette case (yes, the one that saved my life momentarily before by taking a bullet) and...

...wake up in my bed, to my alarm clock. It was all just a dream.

[DMK]

What are my other (don't say Mini14!!) choices for a semi in a .223?

One of the factors I also consider is, SHTF, which rifle is easier to teach someone to use...
SAR-3 :neener:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/rom_ak_223.jpg

[Art Eatman]

CQB? "Close Quarters", as in maybe really up close?

What happens to an AR if you swing up and butt-stroke some sucker? Will the stock still be in place? Or is the butt-stroke and bayonet drill a thing of the past, "of no utility"?

:), Art

[Sven]

Carbine could be used as a baseball bat. Not sure what that would do for accuracy, but... short term objective would be met.

[Art Eatman]

No, Sven, not like a baseball bat. From a port arms position, you push out with your right hand, swinging the toe of the butt up into the Bad Guy's chin, teeth and nose. You then rake down with the muzzle, performing further cosmetic changes--particularly if a bayonet is attached. You then stab forward. Pulling the trigger makes for easy removal of the bayonet, if it's stuck.

Graphic, yeah, but real-world, 'cause you ain't there to dance...

Art

[curt]

I have found that the M1C is one of the fastest shouldering weapons...

The M1C is a sniper variant of the M1 Garand.

[natedog]

Mini-14's are good for CQB.... accuracy doesn't make a difference at 7 yards....

[Glock Glockler]

Oh, blessed Tamara. That tactical bit gave the best belly laugh I've had in a while. Thanks.

Twoblink,

By any chance would an AK be out of the question? A 7.62x39 would be far more preferable for CQB than a .223, as it'll penetrate soooooo much better, but that's a good thing in Stalingrad street fighting but might now be that swell in an apt. building. I don't know your situation, so that's your call.

As for SHTF, nothing is better than an AK, and it has those graceful and ellegant lines of a mass-produced, cheaply-made instrument of Communist oppression and Islamic fanaticism. How can you beat that? It's a classic!

Aside from that, would a good shotgun not do the job?

[hillbilly]

M-1 Carbine or M-16 for CQB?

Uh, neither one. That new Benelli combat 12 gauge issued to the Marines. One of those and a bandoleer full of 000 buckshot, please.

hillbilly

[Dr.Rob]

Run Away Run Away!

From all threads like these.

Use what you have. Use your noodle. Stay alive.

The best thing about the carbine is that it's not on anyone's ban list-YET. It wieghs about as much as .22 cal rifle, but it's still sturdy enough to rearrange the dentition on an adversary.

Please be sure you are out of ammo before attempting this.

As far as "CQB" goes the closest I've gotten is running IDPA drills with a rifle. A carbine or AR will suit you just fine. I wouldn't hunt deer with either one of them.

[Sven]

Please be sure you are out of ammo before attempting this.

Point taken. Thanks for the graphic description. I now "get it".

[Art Eatman]

"Out of ammo"? No, not at all.

CQB. Close. Maybeso very close. You don't have X-Ray vision. You don't have the hearing of a wolf or mule deer. Night, and you're searching for the source of some noise--indoors or outside--as a scenario.

Somebody comes at you from the strong side or from the rear. Shoot? How? How do you aim, when he starts from ten feet away?

That's why you use a port arms hold when searching with a long gun. Loaded or empty, the butt or muzzle are themselves weapons.

Art

[cslinger]

Anything from a handgun to a carbine can work. Typically CQB is not a lone gunmen affair either. CQB is typically a team tactic. You ever try to do a house search on your own in your own home. I have done it just for kicks and to get a feel for it. You have no idea how many nooks and crannies and blind turns are in the average two story home. I had the sweats and I was sure I was alone and most of the lights were on. I can't imagine doing it for real.

CQB for me means bar the door, target the door and call 911. I would rather be in the position of defender then that of attacker.

As for tools you already answered your question. 12 gauge pump or semi auto. Nothing speaks with as much authority in close in combat and nothing will put a scare into you quite like the train tunnel bore or sound of a pump racking a shell. For civillian CQB I just don't envision needing 30 round magazines to fend off multiple attackers. I would think 4-9 rounds of 00-000 should be shall we say more than adequate. Not to mention the shotgun is easy to top off, easy to carry extra rounds for, has more versatility in type of ammo and is just plain scary.

Given the choice of the two you mentioned I am going to say AR-15 shorty. The M1 is a nice plinker but the fact is most of them are going on 60 years old. I would feel better if it was an M1 carbine with a complete spring job for both gun and magazines and plenty of rounds to make sure it is 100% reliable.

I fell the M1 carbine is a bit too PC/Cute for HD because to be honest I don't want to kill anybody over a TV set. I would much rather them hear me rack a shotgun shell or see the evil black AR-15 and turn tail and run. Revolvers make a nice viceral presense too because you can see those hollowpoints poking out ready to go. I figure I am not facing a trained killer just some idiot who picked the wrong house and is too stupid to get a job. The M1 carbine is a capable killer no matter what anybody says but to be honest I would be much happier if I had some uber scary looking/sounding firearm that is capable of scaring said intruder and de-escalating the situation before I have to do something life changing for both of us.

Chris