Do class 3 licenses draw extra 'scrutiny' from law enforcement/ATF?


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leadcounsel
January 13, 2012, 05:13 PM
So, I recently learned that some individuals who legally register and own Class 3 gear, such as select fire weapons, suppressors, SBRs, SBS, etc, may draw a lot of extra scrutiny and attention from LEO...

Well, "so what" you may say... but consider this.

In a conversation I had with a LEO agent, he said that you are automatically on the radar and that IF LEO had a reason to come and knock or investigate at your home for any reason, that if you had a Class 3 item, that it would elevate the situation to either:

1) SWAT team involvement or
2) NO KNOCK team entry...

:what::what::what::cuss::cuss::cuss:

So it's almost like a note to the ATF to pay extra attention to you!

Anyone here have any thoughts or information on this?

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hso
January 13, 2012, 05:18 PM
Not true

Rail Driver
January 13, 2012, 05:19 PM
Sounds like BS to me. I know several people that legally own class 3 gear and none of them have expressed any issues like this. One of them even lives in a VERY rough neighborhood where things happen involving law enforcement on his block fairly regularly. Basically if they don't have any reason to investigate you, they're probably not going to waste the time investigating you.

NOLAEMT
January 13, 2012, 05:59 PM
Pure BS.

Probably just a cop who doesnt like mere mortals owning those kind of weapons.

AK103K
January 13, 2012, 07:22 PM
Ive had a number of NFA items for over 25 years now, and the only time I ever dealt with the ATF was when I contacted them.

As far as the local cops, I always kept a loaded mag or two for them to shoot if and when they showed up. Sometimes they did, and, they did. :)

Steve in PA
January 15, 2012, 03:26 AM
Whover you talked to is a fool and "learned" you wrong.

larryh1108
January 15, 2012, 09:45 AM
Do I think you are under scrutiny if you have a class 3 license? No.

That being said, I do believe you will fall into a "computer sort" that could put you on a list that you would otherwise not be on. What I am saying is if a bank was robbed within 50 miles of you and class 3 weapons were used and they drove off in a black Suburban and you live within 50 miles and own a black Suburban I would bet your door would be knocked on. Is that fair? No but I would bet it happens.

M-Cameron
January 15, 2012, 09:52 AM
In a conversation I had with a LEO agent, he said that you are automatically on the radar and that IF LEO had a reason to come and knock or investigate at your home for any reason, that if you had a Class 3 item, that it would elevate the situation to either:

1) SWAT team involvement or
2) NO KNOCK team entry...


something i have learned.....LEO are some of the WORST people to seek legal advise from.....they are right up there with most handgun instructors, the counter guy at the local gun shop, and posts on internet forums.......

if you ever want to get an actual answer.....you either have to read the laws yourself...or find a lawyer.

Quiet
January 15, 2012, 11:16 AM
No such thing as a "class 3 license".
So, if someone mentions it, they do not know what they are talking about.

A "class 3" is a Special Occupational Taxpayer (SOT).
Only a person with a Federal Firearm License (FFL) can be a SOT.

There are three kinds of SOT.
Class 1 = importer of Title 2 firearms
Class 2 = manufacturer of Title 2 firearms
Class 3 = dealer of Title 2 firearms

So, a NFA firearms dealer would typically be a Type 01-FFL Class 3 SOT.

Federally, there is no extra scrutiny for a person who legally owns a Title 2 firearm (AOW, DD, MG, NS, SBR, SBS).
Just have a copy of your paperwork/tax stamp, to show that it is legally owned.


Some states may have extra requirements for persons who legally own Title 2 firearms.
Such as CA... which has extra requirements due to mandatory state licensing for certain Title 2 firearms (DD, MG, SBR, SBS), mandatory transportation restrictions and mandatory storage restrictions. These additional requirements along with annual inspection audits to ensure compliance of the extra requirements, may be construed as "extra scrutiny" from state LEOs (CA DOJ BOF).

Sam1911
January 15, 2012, 11:25 AM
Aaach. As much as we try to be somewhat understanding about poor semantics and firearms vocabulary, this gets old.

There is no such thing as a Class 3 gun. Machine guns, silencers, SBR/SBS, destructive devices, and AOWs are National Firearms Act, Title II registered firearms.

You do not get a Class 3 license to own one. When you purchase one of these, you register it with the BATFE in your name in the NFA registry. You do not hold ANY kind of license because of this. All you are doing is registering that one weapon. If you want another one you have to register that one, separately, as well.

An FFL-holder gun DEALER who wants to sell machine guns, silencers, and other NFA-regulated weapons applies and pays the Special Occupational Tax, Class 3 to do so. (SOT3) So, you can, in the common shorthand, become an SOT3 FFL dealer. But being licensed to SELL these guns is very different from merely owning one.

An FFL-holder gun MANUFACTURER who wants to MAKE machine guns, silencers, and other NFA-regulated weapons applies and pays the Special Occupational Tax, Class 2 to do so. (SOT2) So, you can, in the common shorthand, become an SOT2 FFL manufacturer. But being licensed to MAKE these guns is very different from merely owning one.

If you can legally buy a firearm, you can buy an NFA-Title II weapon -- if your state allows it. The process is more complicated but the requirements are not actually stricter. Some states that do allow them do have special requirements like holding a state permit or registering those items with the state as well as the BATFE.

Having said all of that, the fact that you own a machine gun or silencer does not increase your "profile" with law enforcement. You do not give up ANY 4th Amendment rights, your collection and/or home are not subject to inspections. You are not inviting no-knock raids or any such crap.

Whoever told you this knows NOTHING about the matter, which seems to be the common situation when you ask a local law enforcement officer any question on firearms law. Doubly so if you're asking something about NFA issues.

leadcounsel
January 15, 2012, 11:52 AM
Some of you are missing the point -

The point isn't my semantics or even the LEO's semantics or the translation of same...

The POINT is that
1) Owning said items puts you on lists that make it more likely that you will be talked to and
2) IF they come and talk to you, you might expect more of an armed response than otherwise...

Mot45acp
January 15, 2012, 12:30 PM
I don't own any NFA items.

The Mot45acp trust now, is a different story.

AK103K
January 15, 2012, 01:05 PM
The POINT is that
1) Owning said items puts you on lists that make it more likely that you will be talked to and
2) IF they come and talk to you, you might expect more of an armed response than otherwise...
Based on what?

Sam1911
January 15, 2012, 01:06 PM
The POINT is that
1) Owning said items puts you on lists that make it more likely that you will be talked to and
2) IF they come and talk to you, you might expect more of an armed response than otherwise...


Maybe we're not missing the point after all. The point is, with perhaps a few exceptions (like CA, and maybe MD, though I've never heard of it in MD) there are no special lists and you should NOT expect any different treatment than 'otherwise.'

Your LEO pal is full o' poo.

Except in the two or three states where you make special application to the state regarding Title II items, there is NO special list for the LEOs to check. The 'special list' is the NFA registry held by the BATFE. And they don't call up to BATFE and ask, "by the way, we're going over to Eddie's house today, does he have happen to have any machine guns?"

IF they find you in possession of a machine gun or other Title II regulated item, then they can determine whether you possess it legally, by looking at your stamped Form 4 (or Form 1) and verifying with the BATFE if they feel the need. (That's problematic, though. The Form, with the stamp, in your hands IS your proof).

But that's it.

crazy-mp
January 15, 2012, 01:33 PM
1) Owning said items puts you on lists that make it more likely that you will be talked to and

You will be the “registered owner” of that silencer, which is recorded on a “list.”
But remember, you have a social security number, which is a “list”; you are registered
to vote, which is a “list”; you pay your taxes, which is a controlled “list.” From
your birth, the government has had ways of identifying you. S o relax, take a deep
breath, and exercise your right to buy a silencer.

*taken from SilencerCo Silencers are legal brochure*

2) IF they come and talk to you, you might expect more of an armed response than otherwise...

I do not know of any state that has laws regarding mobilization of a Special Reaction team to deal with a individual because they own a legally possessed firearm. If the police had information that you were building illegal machine guns and selling them there is a good chance your front door will come off the hinges unannounced.

Sounds to me like your "LEO agent" either does not know the law, thinks common people shouldn't have title II items, or is really a 16 year old blowing smoke on a forum.

Aaron Baker
January 15, 2012, 01:38 PM
The POINT is that
1) Owning said items puts you on lists that make it more likely that you will be talked to and
2) IF they come and talk to you, you might expect more of an armed response than otherwise...

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Talk to all the people who really do own NFA items. Most of them have never talked to an ATF agent or any other type of law enforcement because of their ownership of NFA items. Just because the ATF has a registry doesn't mean that they're using it to harass law-abiding citizens.

And if "they" do come and talk to you, then it's not going to be an armed SWAT response unless you've got something more than NFA ownership going on.

Now, I can imagine that if the ATF gets wind that you're making illegal machine guns and you're on the registry with a bunch of NFA items, then when they get a warrant from a neutral and detached magistrate, they may decide to do no-knock service (which thanks to the US Supreme Court is possible with ANY warrant) and use a SWAT team. However, it really isn't the registered NFA items they're worried about in that scenario, it's the illegal machine guns. And without those, they have no cause for a warrant.

As already stated, the 4th Amendment still applies to people who own items on the NFA registry.

Aaron

AK103K
January 15, 2012, 01:49 PM
you pay your taxes, which is a controlled “list.”
Technically, your forms "are" a tax form, and in that realm.

Lawdawg45
January 15, 2012, 02:39 PM
I can't speak authoritatively for other states, but in Indiana a "No knock" warrant is extremely hard to get and requires mounds of evidence be presented to a Judge, so I think that comment was exaggerated or pure BS. As far as the heightened response when serving a warrant, why the heck not? It's no different than you, I, or anyone else when we know a danger exists, like when we venture into a ghetto we are more likely to carry a large caliber, high capacity weapon, and not a .22 revolver. Lot's of paranoia out there under the banner of Pro2A, sift through it carefully.

LD

Iramo94
January 15, 2012, 03:20 PM
I don't own any NFA items.

The Mot45acp trust now, is a different story.

^This.

Aaron Baker
January 15, 2012, 03:23 PM
Lawdawg is probably correct that "no knock" warrants require additional evidence before they are granted in almost every, if not every, state.

However, the Supreme Court ruled in Hudson v. Michigan that the exclusionary rule does not apply to violations of the knock-and-announce rule. That takes all the teeth out of the requirement to knock and announce your presence as police before entering a home on a warrant. If there are no consequences (like exclusion of evidence) for simply ignoring the knock-and-announce requirement, then ALL warrants might as well be no-knock warrants, because there's no penalty to police for not knocking.

Trusting law enforcement to be on its best behavior has never been good public policy, regardless of how upstanding individual officers may be.

I'm getting a little off topic, but my basic point is that if there's any reason for police to get a warrant for your home, you may as well assume that they will be entering in full riot gear with no warning. Thankfully, simply owning an NFA firearm is NOT probable cause for a warrant, and our Constitution still requires one.

Aaron

medalguy
January 15, 2012, 07:41 PM
No no no no. Did I mention no?

Seriously, I have owned fully automatic weapons for many years, pre-1968 amnesty in a few cases. I've had LEO out to my place several times for break-ins and other issues, and never did they even know I owned these beautiful, fun weapons. Silly to think they would know everyone who might own a machine gun, silencer, SBS or SBR. DD maybe, especially if it were wheeled and sitting in the front yard? Might cause a question about that.

AlexanderA
January 15, 2012, 08:46 PM
leadcounsel wrote:

The POINT is that
1) Owning said items puts you on lists that make it more likely that you will be talked to and
2) IF they come and talk to you, you might expect more of an armed response than otherwise...

Absolutely untrue. I have owned NFA weapons continuously since 1975, and I have had no untoward experiences of this kind. The only time ATF visited me was when I had an FFL and SOT, and they were doing a routine compliance check. (The compliance inspectors were nice, unthreatening ladies.) As far as "lists" go, yes, in Virginia there's a State Police registry of machine guns, but they don't do anything with it and (as I learned) it's not even necessarily up to date. Actually, law enforcement authorities are aware of all the hoops and background checks that NFA owners must go through, and so the presumption is that we're the "good guys."

Arp32
January 15, 2012, 09:26 PM
I'm not trying to be disparaging of the OP, but it does seem like there are a good number of posts postulating on the relative likelihood of extremely unlikely firearm-related events occurring to one of us. This seems like one.


I'm guessing that if you divided the annual number of search warrants into the population of my local metro area, it would be an extremely small fraction. Take out the number of folks with prior criminal records, I'm guessing that number drops even further. Mistakes happen, but I'm sure the likelihood of it occurring to any of us is probably extremely, extremely small.

Now compare the for the number of erroneous search warrants that were served on folks who also happened to possess registered NFA items, and compare the number of those that were no-knock warrants versus "polite" service... You get the point. Even if we had the statistics, is the sample size even enough to draw a conclusion? How often does this occur across the entire nation? Once a year? Once every two years? There's a Powerball winner most weeks.

GoingQuiet
January 15, 2012, 09:29 PM
There is no such thing as a class 3 license or class 3 gear. Class 3 is a tax bracket or a railroad, it is not something you can buy.

LE is full of FUD. That is simply not the case. There is no spot on ATF Form 4 that has a checkbox that says "Do you waive your rights to fourth amementment/due process etc."

So, I recently learned that some individuals who legally register and own Class 3 gear, such as select fire weapons, suppressors, SBRs, SBS, etc, may draw a lot of extra scrutiny and attention from LEO...

Well, "so what" you may say... but consider this.

In a conversation I had with a LEO agent, he said that you are automatically on the radar and that IF LEO had a reason to come and knock or investigate at your home for any reason, that if you had a Class 3 item, that it would elevate the situation to either:

1) SWAT team involvement or
2) NO KNOCK team entry...

:what::what::what::cuss::cuss::cuss:

So it's almost like a note to the ATF to pay extra attention to you!

Anyone here have any thoughts or information on this?

Bovice
January 15, 2012, 09:49 PM
If I was on the receiving end of a no-knock raid while I'm eating dinner and abiding by the law, I just might shoot back, having no idea why the hell armed people are running through my house.

That does not seem like a logical response just to tell me that there's a car parked the wrong way in the street in front of my house.

Jim K
January 15, 2012, 11:00 PM
One thing that needs to be clarified. There is no such thing as a "Class 3 license". There is a Class 3 Special Occupational Tax, paid by a licensed (FFL) dealer or manufacturer to deal in NFA firearms. NO federal license is required to own NFA firearms, only BATFE approval of the transfer and payment of the transfer tax.

As to the legal possession of NFA firearms attracting attention, in most cases, local LE won't even know about it; BATFE does not tell them who has registered guns in their area unless there is a criminal investigation. The CLEO can use the signoff to keep a record, which is one of the reasons that provision may be eliminated. If there is local or state registration, then of course they might know, but in some states that have state registration, not even local LE can get access to the records, at least officially, unless there is a criminal investigation.

IMHO, an LE that would make such a statement needs to lose his badge and most of all, his gun. He is just the kind of cop who goes around hoping for an excuse to shoot people.

Jim

GoingQuiet
January 15, 2012, 11:34 PM
One thing that needs to be clarified. There is no such thing as a "Class 3 license". There is a Class 3 Special Occupational Tax, paid by a licensed (FFL) dealer or manufacturer to deal in NFA firearms. NO federal license is required to own NFA firearms, only BATFE approval of the transfer and payment of the transfer tax.

As to the legal possession of NFA firearms attracting attention, in most cases, local LE won't even know about it; BATFE does not tell them who has registered guns in their area unless there is a criminal investigation. The CLEO can use the signoff to keep a record, which is one of the reasons that provision may be eliminated. If there is local or state registration, then of course they might know, but in some states that have state registration, not even local LE can get access to the records, at least officially, unless there is a criminal investigation.

IMHO, an LE that would make such a statement needs to lose his badge and most of all, his gun. He is just the kind of cop who goes around hoping for an excuse to shoot people.

Jim
I think your statement is overblown.

To say that someone is a cop going around hoping for an excuse to shoot people based on ignorance is extreme and overbroad.

Hanlons razor - Don't attribute to malice that which you can attribute to stupidity.

Walther P99
January 15, 2012, 11:51 PM
Regardless of whether NFA draws extra scrutiny or not, I still want one.. :)

crazy-mp
January 16, 2012, 12:00 AM
Regardless of whether NFA draws extra scrutiny or not, I still want one..

Spoken like a true American!

Lawdawg45
January 16, 2012, 07:57 AM
No no no no. Did I mention no?

Seriously, I have owned fully automatic weapons for many years, pre-1968 amnesty in a few cases. I've had LEO out to my place several times for break-ins and other issues, and never did they even know I owned these beautiful, fun weapons. Silly to think they would know everyone who might own a machine gun, silencer, SBS or SBR. DD maybe, especially if it were wheeled and sitting in the front yard? Might cause a question about that.

Correct. Although some states link your CCW permit with BMV records, most states do not (including Indiana), so other than previous arrest/contact information or intel from a confidential informant, we have no idea, but the well trained Officer will assume every house has a weapon. Information with the Fed's or ATF is a totally different ballgame.;)

LD

AK103K
January 16, 2012, 08:35 AM
but the well trained Officer will assume every house has a weapon
Every house he goes to, does. ;)

Ian
January 16, 2012, 09:44 AM
My local cops have no idea that I have a machine gun. It's owned by a trust, so I didn't have to get any local LEO signature, and the info stays with the feds.

PTK
January 16, 2012, 11:12 AM
Here's my direct and recent experience - middle of September, I think it was, there was a SERIOUS injury in my home. It even involved a firearm. I called 911, told dispatch to get EMT and sheriff here (outside of city limits, so the local PD doesn't come out here) and continued treating the injured party while waiting.

The first deputy came up to the house, knocked and called out my name and the name of the injured, asking where we were, if we were okay, etc.

Second deputy was outside, in the sheriff's vehicle (which was still on).

Once deputy #1 heard me answer and saw me heading for the door, he waved to his partner who exited the vehicle and came up to join him. I opened the door and let them both in. They saw what had happened, saw how it had happened, and radioed to get EMTs here - they were waiting down the street just in case, which seems like a pretty good idea when someone calls in a GSW.

Anyway, a few minutes into this I realized that I hadn't put a cover shirt on or removed my carry gun from the holster. I mentioned it to the deputies, who looked at each other. Deputy #2 turned back to me and she simply said "so?"

For what it's worth, I own NFA items. Not a huge collection, but plenty.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106228&d=1254013473

Some are through trusts, but some are individually owned.

So, let's recap...

They knew I had NFA items inside my residence
They were called in for a GSW inside my residence
There was no "no knock" or SWAT raid
At no point were the deputies anything but entirely friendly and helpful


For what it may be worth, this happened in Montana. That may be part of the equation. ;)

LiquidTension
January 16, 2012, 08:15 PM
I've served a metric pantload of warrants and there were only two times that the ATF was involved for any reason:

1) Multi-jurisdictional gang unit high risk warrant service where they came along.
2) We found an SBS in a criminal's residence one time.

zignal_zero
January 16, 2012, 10:59 PM
Not to the extent that LEO suggested, but YES, knowing what I do about LE I do believe if you go the individual route the sheriff will record the fact he signed off on your form 4 and that info will be available to any unit responding to a call for service at you home. Now how having that information changes their response depends on a lot of factors, but If a sheriff signed you form4, go ahead and assume every deputy who runs your name knows about it.

gyvel
January 17, 2012, 11:22 PM
IF they find you in possession of a machine gun or other Title II regulated item, then they can determine whether you possess it legally, by looking at your stamped Form 4 (or Form 1) and verifying with the BATFE if they feel the need. (That's problematic, though. The Form, with the stamp, in your hands IS your proof).

As AK103K pointed out, your Form 4 is a Federal tax form, and doesn't have to be shown to anyone except an employee of the IRS, to wit: an ATF agent.

Now, having said that, I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to try this kind of bravado with a cop in your home investigating something, even though you are well within your legal rights to do so.

Other than that, you don't go on any special "list" because you own NFA weapons other than, say, by word of mouth. At least that's the case where I live because most of the local cops like to shoot FA weapons.

hso
January 18, 2012, 12:14 AM
The POINT is that
1) Owning said items puts you on lists that make it more likely that you will be talked to and
2) IF they come and talk to you, you might expect more of an armed response than otherwise...

No, you're not listening to the NFA owners here who are telling you that such a myth is false. Doesn't happen.

Apply a little logic. Machine gun owners undergo a background check in addition to approval by their local LE authority. They're certified good guys. Their hobby is expensive so they're also usually successful business and professional people who in addition to having passed a background check on at least one occasion are also well connected in the community. Not exactly the folks likely to get a visit from the black suited guys fast roping from a stealth helicopter regardless of how much tin foil eaten as a child by the guy who's infected you with this goofy myth.

So, NO, by both logic and the actual experience of the people who actually own then.

Prosser
January 18, 2012, 12:57 AM
I have a friend currently being treated for fatal cancer. He has a number of full auto weapons, among other things.

He was a bomb tech/SWAT Sniper/Firearms instructor/purchaser for local LEO and detective. Pretty much anything involving firearms, they call him. Not to mention a Col. in the National Guard.

He is one of the good guys. It's sad he's dieing. That does bring up how can the
Class 3 weapons be transfered to his heirs in this wonderful state of California?

My understanding is to obtain the weapons you have to pass the same requirements as someone who applies for a CCW, which are impossible to get here, so then what happens to the guns?

GoingQuiet
January 18, 2012, 03:03 AM
I have a friend currently being treated for fatal cancer. He has a number of full auto weapons, among other things.

He was a bomb tech/SWAT Sniper/Firearms instructor/purchaser for local LEO and detective. Pretty much anything involving firearms, they call him. Not to mention a Col. in the National Guard.

He is one of the good guys. It's sad he's dieing. That does bring up how can the
Class 3 weapons be transfered to his heirs in this wonderful state of California?

My understanding is to obtain the weapons you have to pass the same requirements as someone who applies for a CCW, which are impossible to get here, so then what happens to the guns?
Again - Class 3 is a TAX BRACKET not a special category of firearm.

If his heirs are in California, there is no way they can be transferred unless they follow CA state law and get a license that they can't get.

Quiet
January 18, 2012, 03:19 AM
He is one of the good guys. It's sad he's dieing. That does bring up how can the
Class 3 weapons be transfered to his heirs in this wonderful state of California?

BATFE allows a person to store a Title 2 firearm in another state, if the state they reside in does not allow the ownership/possession of Title 2 firearms.

If the Title 2 firearms are being bequested to a resident of CA, then standard transfer procedure would occur with the stipulation that the Title 2 firearm is being stored in another state. When stored in another state, it must be stored in such a way that only the owner has access to it (examples... in a safety deposit box or in a safe in which the owner retains possession of the key/combo & no one else has a key/combo to the safe).

Ownership/possession of certain Title 2 firearms (DD, MG, SBR, SBS) in CA requires a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit.
Currently, the only ways to get a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit is by a FFL/SOT for the purpose of making/transfering to Gov/Mil/LE agencies or by a prop master for use in the entertainment industry.

Ownership/possession of an AOW does not require a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit.

Bottom line...
If the Title 2 firearms are a DD/MG/NS/SBR/SBS, then they need to be stored outside of CA.
If the Title 2 firearms are an AOW (except for pen guns), then they can be transfered to a CA resident via FFL/SOT dealer with BATFE approval (Form 5).

Prosser
January 18, 2012, 06:18 AM
Thanks. The out of state option was not considered. I suspect he'll give them to some of his SWAT buddies anyway.

evan price
January 18, 2012, 06:32 AM
What is this "Class Three License" of which you are speaking?

Most Class Three trucks have a GVWR between 10,001 pounds and 14,000 pounds- which is the size which is the 1-ton or "super duty" type pickups, and are not required to have a CDL to operate...

Did you perhaps mean a Class Three SOT paid by an FFL? In which case, yes, a Class Three SOT holder has everything on a list or a bound book. But that's true for any of the FFL classes.

I perosnally think this entire post is troll-bait by the antis.. "Yes, if you peons dare to buy anything from the Land of Evil Bad Things the SWAT team will come and kill you!"


@ PTK: That chopped Mosin pistol looks extra painful to the shooter even just sitting there.

Bubbles
January 18, 2012, 08:37 AM
I have a friend currently being treated for fatal cancer. He has a number of full auto weapons, among other things.

He was a bomb tech/SWAT Sniper/Firearms instructor/purchaser for local LEO and detective. Pretty much anything involving firearms, they call him. Not to mention a Col. in the National Guard.

He is one of the good guys. It's sad he's dieing. That does bring up how can the Class 3 weapons be transfered to his heirs in this wonderful state of California?
It sounds like the guy is an FFL/SOT, which means he'd better 1) already know the answer to this question and 2) have made provisions for anything in his inventory to be legally transferred when he does pass away. Ideally he's left explicit instructions for his executor (or at least a referral to an FFL/SOT who can guide him through the process), especially for any pre- or post-samples so they don't end up being destroyed.

Since it's business inventory it's not as clean/easy as just willing everything to his heirs. Being in California they couldn't legally take posession of most of the inventory anyway.

hso
January 18, 2012, 11:14 AM
Setting up a trust with family as members is the solution.

AK103K
January 18, 2012, 11:36 AM
It would seem so. My only concern would be, do different states have different rules for the trusts? The ATF may accept them, but could the state be an issue?

Ive also recently been hearing the ATF isnt real happy with the trust thing, and is thinking about doing away with the LEO sign off as a trade off. Anyone else heard anymore on that?

Carl N. Brown
January 18, 2012, 12:38 PM
So the short form is you can buy NFA firearms from a FFL dealer who is a Class 3 SOT. But they are NFA firearms. Not Class 3 firearms.

zignal_zero
January 18, 2012, 04:12 PM
actually i believe they are called "Title II Firearms". NFA is (one of) the law(s) that governs them. so..... you could say "NFA Restricted Firearms" which has YES become "NFA Guns" i consider it to be kind of gun slang, like scattergun, hogleg, snubbie, choppa, etc.

ETA - i prefer to call them Title II Firearms, but i also call an AK a Kalashnikov :D

Prosser
January 18, 2012, 11:04 PM
Since the gentleman in question is an attorney, I suspect he has this covered.
Still, as cancer eats at you, your mental perspective and abilities diminish.

That's my current concern.
He's already setup a trust, but, I don't know what he's doing with the firearms.

husbandofaromanian
January 19, 2012, 04:57 AM
When I bought my first silencer 7 years ago, I was also afraid of being questioned whenever a shooting crime happened. However, I own two silencers now, and the only grief I get is at the local state shooting range when they are afraid my firearms are not legal (a Contender Pistol with a silencer looks pretty scary).
Even though I cannot afford one, you fa guys can have them. I've seen them shot a knob creek and their accuracy is HORRIBLE.

AK103K
January 19, 2012, 05:25 AM
Even though I cannot afford one, you fa guys can have them. I've seen them shot a knob creek and their accuracy is HORRIBLE.
Thats not the guns fault. ;)

zignal_zero
January 19, 2012, 05:40 AM
I've seen them shot a knob creek and their accuracy is HORRIBLE.

That's odd. I've shot a couple MG's. I bought one, recently, and am still waiting on my Form4 to clear. I've found that the right one can be plenty accurate.

GoingQuiet
January 19, 2012, 08:10 PM
So the short form is you can buy NFA firearms from a FFL dealer who is a Class 3 SOT. But they are NFA firearms. Not Class 3 firearms.
Of all the posts in this thread, yours is one of few that is accurate.

(You can also buy from an FFL licensed as an importer or manufacturer with or without the appropriate SOT)

VigilanteTX
January 20, 2012, 05:56 PM
I haven't seen this many 3 letter acronyms since I invoiced the CIA...
Great info gents, much thanks.

billphoto
January 20, 2012, 11:58 PM
I would say “not true”. I have never had a negative experience and have had class 3 for many years. While there may be some “field generals” with ATF, my dealings have been cordial and professional. It wasn’t them calling me but the other way around. Just my experience.

Bubbles
January 21, 2012, 08:44 AM
Even as a Class 2 manufacturer having a license has not caused extra scrutiny from anyone in law enforcement, unless you count the guys who just want to buy toys... :D

GRAPE-DRANK
January 27, 2012, 11:49 PM
Someone told the OP that they could be subject to a "no knock" search warrant. LMFAO!!!

Sam1911
January 30, 2012, 10:16 PM
Answered enough. And then more. And some after that.

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