How does FFL "multi-purchase" reporting effect you?


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leadcounsel
January 16, 2012, 03:29 PM
So with multiple handgun purchases in 5 days at the same FFL, or now with rifles in a few states, the FFL has to report the purchase to the ATF.

Practically, how does that effect you? - Oh, and conspiracies welcome! :)

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CoRoMo
January 16, 2012, 03:36 PM
I've done it before, but for the most part, I avoid making a purchase that would require the dealer to submit the 3310.4 form. I'm not paranoid, I just don't like when my information is used/distributed against my will. I hate having my finger prints taken for a carry permit, and I hate having my name sent to the atf if I buy more than one handgun.

Bubbles
January 16, 2012, 07:09 PM
Speaking as an FFL, it increases my cost of doing business as it's more time spent doing paperwork. Unfortunately any cost increase gets passed along to customers.

medalguy
January 16, 2012, 08:29 PM
I have ordered handguns online before and had several arrive in the same week. When I went by the FFL on the weekend to pick them up, his suggestion was to only pick up two at a time and wait a week to pick up the others. FFLs don't want to have to deal with the silly paperwork either.

mp510
January 16, 2012, 11:44 PM
I have ordered handguns online before and had several arrive in the same week. When I went by the FFL on the weekend to pick them up, his suggestion was to only pick up two at a time and wait a week to pick up the others. FFLs don't want to have to deal with the silly paperwork either.

He has to do as much "silly paperwork" for two as he does for 4 or 8 or 100, not withstanding the extra line items listing the gun Really, the burden is minimal- especially considering the infrequency of qualifying multiple sales.

Reporting requirements don't really add any extra burden on to the buyer- unless the ATF decides to question them to confirm that they are not unlawfully dealing.

The seller is exposed to a minimal additional processing burden and an added liability burden of having to ensure that another document is properly filled. There is also the cost burden of transmission.

The multiple handgun transfer notification also adds a burden/ liability for receiving LEAs that are thereafter required to submit certification to ATF that they have handled/ disposed of forms received in accordance with federal regulations.

The biggest argument is the privacy angle- though that does not concern me at all- just about every gun that I buy is reported to the state police and my local CLEO already per state law.

armoredman
January 16, 2012, 11:46 PM
I don't have enough disposable income to worry about buying two rifles at the same time.

dogtown tom
January 17, 2012, 12:20 AM
mp510 Quote:
I have ordered handguns online before and had several arrive in the same week. When I went by the FFL on the weekend to pick them up, his suggestion was to only pick up two at a time and wait a week to pick up the others. FFLs don't want to have to deal with the silly paperwork either.

He has to do as much "silly paperwork" for two as he does for 4 or 8 or 100, not withstanding the extra line items listing the gun Really, the burden is minimal- especially considering the infrequency of qualifying multiple sales.
Uh, no.:scrutiny:
If you were a licensed dealer you would realize how wrong you are.
I average three "multiple sales" of handguns each week.....and i only do transfers. Storefronts in my town average three multiple sales EVERY DAY!

Each form takes about three minutes to complete...IF.....I don't get interrupted. Then I get to address an envelope to the local PD so I can mail their copy, then i get to fax a copy to ATF.

Not too much of a hassle if a customer acquires both on the same day, but if that customer comes in and I transfer another handgun.....i get to go back and fill out another form. I have one collector who picked up four pistols in a week.....none on the same day. Guess how any forms/faxes/mailings that was? (three):banghead:

If I fail to notice that the guy who bought a gun on Monday, picked up another one one on Friday I'm in violation. ATF considers each and every error or ommission as "wilfull" which could lead to a fine, imprisonment or loss of my FFL

So, yeah...the burden is minimal.

Bubba613
January 17, 2012, 09:38 AM
It is a hassle. The form must be filled out and transmitted the same business day. And then Copy 2 to CLEO (a requirement I think they are going to cut out).
Also I mention that ATF uses the information to generate a database of firearms and their owners. Ask me how I know.
My biggest objection is that it is utterly worthless in preventing crime.

TexasRifleman
January 17, 2012, 11:31 AM
I simply won't ever do it again. I suspect that's what most people will do. It will generate absolutely no useful information for ATF, but of course that's not why they did it.

mp510
January 17, 2012, 11:35 AM
Uh, no.
If you were a licensed dealer you would realize how wrong you are.
I average three "multiple sales" of handguns each week.....and i only do transfers. Storefronts in my town average three multiple sales EVERY DAY!

Each form takes about three minutes to complete...IF.....I don't get interrupted. Then I get to address an envelope to the local PD so I can mail their copy, then i get to fax a copy to ATF.

Not too much of a hassle if a customer acquires both on the same day, but if that customer comes in and I transfer another handgun.....i get to go back and fill out another form. I have one collector who picked up four pistols in a week.....none on the same day. Guess how any forms/faxes/mailings that was? (three)

If I fail to notice that the guy who bought a gun on Monday, picked up another one one on Friday I'm in violation. ATF considers each and every error or ommission as "wilfull" which could lead to a fine, imprisonment or loss of my FFL

So, yeah...the burden is minimal.


You're right, I'm not an FFL. However, I do know how to read data and my understanding is that there is appx. 140,000 multiple handgun transfer reports nationally per annum. During the August-October reporting period, there was 502 multiple deatchable mag semi-automatic sale reports- with 65% coming in from TX. In 2011, there were appx. 16 million NICS checks nationally though it is suggested that there may only be 6.5 million or so firearm transfers- checks may be conducted for other purposes (e.g. licensing). If half of that 6.5 million number are pistols- then 140,000 is a statistical drop in the bucket. I do agree with you, however, that it is onerous to pay attention for staggered multiple transfers- especially in a larger/ busy retail environment- and staggered multiple transactions do, as you say could result in more mailings/ faxes.

And yes, I do still consider the literal process of processing the forms to be a minimal burden. The liability however, can be great.

BellyUpFish
January 17, 2012, 11:36 AM
So is more than 2 the reporting number?

2 and less ok?

I've never picked up more than 2 at a time.

CoRoMo
January 17, 2012, 11:39 AM
More than one = multiple.

When you've picked up 2 at a time, it was reported by law.

dogtown tom
January 17, 2012, 11:41 AM
BellyUpFish So is more than 2 the reporting number?
2 and less ok?
I've never picked up more than 2 at a time.

Two or more handguns in any five day period from the same dealer.

Dealers in the "border states" have a similiar reporting requirement on certain semiautomatic rifles.

mp510
January 17, 2012, 11:41 AM
It is a hassle. The form must be filled out and transmitted the same business day. And then Copy 2 to CLEO (a requirement I think they are going to cut out).
Also I mention that ATF uses the information to generate a database of firearms and their owners. Ask me how I know.
My biggest objection is that it is utterly worthless in preventing crime.

And this hits on the real concern- privacy.

W.E.G.
January 17, 2012, 11:44 AM
I'm pretty sure "they" are already aware of me.

Can I get them to carry my ammo and water?

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/wifecarrybeer.jpg

mgkdrgn
January 17, 2012, 11:01 PM
It means I have to fill out extra paperwork on my best customers.

leadcounsel
January 19, 2012, 01:36 AM
If I order a couple of handguns for myself, my personal collection, at the same time (for a discount from the vendor and reduced shipping costs), is there an issue if I tell the FFL that I only want to pick each one up every 6 business days to avoid the extra paperwork?

Is this deemed as suspicious or in violation, or does an FFL even care?

snubbies
January 19, 2012, 08:58 AM
As a dealer my answer would be NO. I don't know where this would stand with the law but it has the possibility of bringing ATF to my door. The last thing a dealer wants is to be have ATF know that you are alive.

dogtown tom
January 19, 2012, 09:55 AM
leadcounsel If I order a couple of handguns for myself, my personal collection, at the same time (for a discount from the vendor and reduced shipping costs), is there an issue if I tell the FFL that I only want to pick each one up every 6 business days to avoid the extra paperwork?

Is this deemed as suspicious or in violation, or does an FFL even care?
I have a customer that has a standing appointment every Monday night to do just that.

While not a violation of any Federal law, it does look suspicious when my bound book shows the same customer name on three consecutive lines with the disposition dates one week apart. At my last compliance inspection the IOI had no trouble finding those types of transactions.:eek:

Bubba613
January 19, 2012, 05:37 PM
I believe attempting to circumvent the reporting requirement by spacing transfers over the time period is itself a crime.
I'll bet this will be the next hobbyhorse ATF rides.

mp510
January 19, 2012, 05:43 PM
I believe attempting to circumvent the reporting requirement by spacing transfers over the time period is itself a crime.
I'll bet this will be the next hobbyhorse ATF rides.

In banking, you would be correct- structuring transactions so as to avoid mandated reporting is criminal. However, there is no such imposition on firearm transactions.

crracer_712
January 19, 2012, 06:01 PM
That's what I like about gun shows, spread the wealth.

209
January 19, 2012, 07:09 PM
Typically if we're buying two or more guns at the same time, at least one is for my wife. Since she has her own pistol permit, she buys the one she wants and I buy the one I want. Still requires the FFL checks though and I assume twice the paperwork.

Years back, I bought five in one day at the same store. I don't think the multiple purchase reqs were in effect back then. I know the FFL holder was happy.

bushmaster1313
January 19, 2012, 08:45 PM
Does not affect me.

Neverwinter
January 20, 2012, 02:32 AM
I don't have enough disposable income to worry about buying two rifles at the same time.
Running into the multi-purchase reporting problem goes in the list of "Problems I wish I had."

mgkdrgn
January 21, 2012, 12:26 PM
THIS FFL would attempt to talk you out of such foolishness.

If that didn't work, I'd be telling you to find another FFL. Pandering to your paranoia isn't worth my licence.

Bobson
January 21, 2012, 01:18 PM
I don't have enough disposable income to worry about buying two rifles at the same time.Running into the multi-purchase reporting problem goes in the list of "Problems I wish I had."
Same here. This is a First-World Problem, if ever there was one.

Mike1234567
January 21, 2012, 04:22 PM
I avoid buying more than two at a time because it's nunotheirfarginbizness how many firearms I have. That stated, they're probably already tracking all our purchases anyway. It does tick me off that I must pay additional transfer fees than I once did. When I was buying lots of guns at a time to build a collection I could save quite a bit of money by waiting until 10-12 were ready for pickup. Not anymore...

leadcounsel
January 21, 2012, 04:33 PM
Sad to hear that people here aren't concerned about going onto the "naughty" list for arbitrary purchases...

Bobson
January 21, 2012, 04:42 PM
Sad to hear that people here aren't concerned about going onto the "naughty" list for arbitrary purchases...
I won't speak for others, but for me personally (I'm sure you were at least partially inspired to say this because of my joking post #27), it's not that I'm unconcerned - it just doesn't effect me personally.

Is anti-gun legislation a slippery-slope, and could this lead to more negative changes? Sure it is, and yes it could; but that isn't the topic of this thread.

leadcounsel
January 21, 2012, 04:50 PM
it's not that I'm unconcerned - it just doesn't effect me personally.



And there is the problem. Other people's problems soon become our own, but we ignore it until it creeps into our own backyard.

And now ignoring it has led to the requirement of multi-rifle sales in "some" states, but not mine... so who cares??

Bobson
January 21, 2012, 05:38 PM
And there is the problem. Other people's problems soon become our own, but we ignore it until it creeps into our own backyard.

And now ignoring it has led to the requirement of multi-rifle sales in "some" states, but not mine... so who cares??
You asked people to chime in on "how this impacts me," and added that conspiracies are welcome. If conspiracies were mandatory, you should have said so. I answered the question you asked, as did others who this simply will not have a direct effect on.

I freely admit that there are multiple ways this BS could spread into a flurry of feces, but I chose not to go into it. Just not interested in the "What if..." game. And just for clarity, this lame legislation does effect people in my state, as I live in Arizona; however, it still doesn't effect me.

dogtown tom
January 21, 2012, 07:09 PM
leadcounsel Sad to hear that people here aren't concerned about going onto the "naughty" list for arbitrary purchases...
Really?:rolleyes:
Ummmm....so what gun forums do you visit where members post about how delighted they are with ATF regulations and Federal gun laws (it ain't here).

Bubba613
January 21, 2012, 08:20 PM
Sad to hear that people here aren't concerned about going onto the "naughty" list for arbitrary purchases..
What "naughty list" would that be? You realize that I probably do two of these a month, and I'm a pretty small shop. A big shop might do dozens. Multiply that by all the shops in the country and there are thousands every month. Probably half of gun owners have triggered that requirement at some point in time. Given that there are millions--tens of millions--of gun owners I dont think that is really a "naughty list."
The only thing the requrement does is unite the buyer with his two handguns for one day. After that the information reaches obsolete.
Gun board paranoia strikes again.

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