PDW Options Under 20" OAL?


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Sgt_R
January 18, 2012, 03:00 PM
For a variety of reasons, I'm looking into semi-auto PDW options that come in under 20" OAL, and accept a suppressor & RDS. NFA, obviously. So far I've come up with the following:

FN PS90 SBR
Approx. 19.5" OAL, easiest "out of the box" solution, 50 rounds in a compact package, Silencerco Sparrow reportedly works wonders, but anemic (and expensive!) civilian ammo is easily defeated by intermediate barriers (windshield glass, light masonry, etc).

Mini-Draco SBR
Approx 18-19" OAL (folded), commercially available ammo is inexpensive & defeats intermediate barriers, variety of suppresors available (would take some research to find a .308 can that's warrantied to work with a 7" barrel, but I'm sure they're out there), accepts standard AK mags (lots of good options here), but the plastic buffer makes me nervous. This would have to be a true custom build, requiring time and money to do it right.

And that's really all I've come up with so far. I know there are pistol caliber carbines out there that fit the bill, but I'm really hoping for something with a bit more 'punch;' if 9mm is truly the best I can do, then I'd rather skip the PDW entirely and stick with a TSD G17 (which is on my 'must buy' list in any case).

So what say you? Is there a better option out there?

R

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AlexanderA
January 18, 2012, 03:34 PM
For a "PDW" (Personal Defense Weapon) that you actually intend to use for personal defense, you should steer clear of anything that comes under the NFA. If you did have to use it against someone, it would place you in an difficult legal position. A prosecutor could argue that NFA weapons are by nature "offensive" and not "defensive." Stick with a conventional handgun, rifle, or shotgun.

rjrivero
January 18, 2012, 04:05 PM
For a "PDW" (Personal Defense Weapon) that you actually intend to use for personal defense, you should steer clear of anything that comes under the NFA. If you did have to use it against someone, it would place you in an difficult legal position. A prosecutor could argue that NFA weapons are by nature "offensive" and not "defensive." Stick with a conventional handgun, rifle, or shotgun.

This could be easily countered by an Defense attorney explaining the LENGTHY process of legally obtaining an NFA item, including the background check, $200 Per item tax, and Federal Registration. A legal weapon, is a legal weapon. Offense is the side that attacks. Defense is the side that reacts to stop the attack. The difference is the intent.

I understand your point, AlexanderA, however, I disagree with the assumption that NFA items in and of themselves show aggressive intent.

By using your logic, by carrying a loaded firearm, you are by nature "offensive" and not "defensive." I just don't buy it.

Saakee
January 18, 2012, 08:03 PM
I once did the math to figure out the length of an AR-15 with a 12" AR57 upper, an exile hammerhead stock adapter, pistol buffer system, magpul afg, Streamlight laser/light combo, and a shorty fixed stock on it mounted to the hammerhead upside down and I think it was only a bit longer than a SBR PS90 and shorter.

If you want to SBR your pistol, you could get an x length threaded barrel for it and a RONI (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/24/caa-tactical-roni-g1-glock-carbine-kit/) carbine adapter

forindooruseonly
January 18, 2012, 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderA
For a "PDW" (Personal Defense Weapon) that you actually intend to use for personal defense, you should steer clear of anything that comes under the NFA. If you did have to use it against someone, it would place you in an difficult legal position. A prosecutor could argue that NFA weapons are by nature "offensive" and not "defensive." Stick with a conventional handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
This could be easily countered by an Defense attorney explaining the LENGTHY process of legally obtaining an NFA item, including the background check, $200 Per item tax, and Federal Registration. A legal weapon, is a legal weapon. Offense is the side that attacks. Defense is the side that reacts to stop the attack. The difference is the intent.

I understand your point, AlexanderA, however, I disagree with the assumption that NFA items in and of themselves show aggressive intent.

By using your logic, by carrying a loaded firearm, you are by nature "offensive" and not "defensive." I just don't buy it.

I wouldn't be so worried about the criminal side as the civil lawsuit that would probably follow. Start toying with a jury's emotions about what someone used to defend himself, and a wrongful death lawsuit could get ugly.

AlexanderA
January 18, 2012, 09:50 PM
I have a number of registered machine guns. If someone broke into my house, I wouldn't dream of using one. (It would be spectacular, but clearly overkill. Besides which, in Virginia -- as in a few other states -- we have the "Uniform Machine Gun Act" which creates a whole set of legal problems in such a scenario.) No, a Rem. 870, or even a hammer coach gun, would suffice.

Mikhail Weiss
January 18, 2012, 10:47 PM
Well, this one is close to 20 inches (an unspecified “less than” 21 inches, when in 7-inch-barrel trim), and it's available in 5.56 and .300 Blackout.

LWS M4 PDW Rifle
http://www.lokiweaponsystems.com/products/ar-15-rifles/lws-m4-forged-rifles?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=27&category_id=8

Then there's this one, which fits the length criteria, but uses the proprietary 6x35mm round.

Knight's Armament PDW
http://www.knightarmco.com/pdw.html

And LWRC makes this "close but no cigar" 22-incher.

http://www.lwrci.com/p-286-m6a2-uciw.aspx#inf-tabs

Sgt_R
January 19, 2012, 06:08 AM
Sigh... I didn't ask for a legal opinion, I asked a simple hardware question. Thank you to the two people so far who have actually posted something helpful.

That LWS M4 PDW in .300 BLK looks interesting. Might be a couple inches longer than I'm looking for though.

Another option that came to my attention recently is the Robinson Armament XCR-L Micro (http://xcr.robarm.com/xcrl.php) in 6.8 SPC, but after doing some research, the owner appears to have an absolutely horrid approach to customer service. (http://xcrforum.com/index.php/topic,9168.0.html) He may well build a superior product, but God help you if your rifle (which is composed almost entirely of proprietary parts machined in-house) ever breaks. No thank you.

I'm still waiting for Rifle Dynamics (http://www.rifledynamics.com/) to get back to me with a quote for a Draco SBR build. Annoyingly, it seems as if a 65 year old Soviet design is still the best game in town.

R

68wj
January 19, 2012, 08:47 AM
That LWRC might be the closest you can get to your desired OAL and still have a buffer tube (Noveske makes a similar option). I have heard the same about the XCR, but also good feedback as well.

Dropping the buffer buys you a good bit of space. The RRA PDS is 26" OAL with the stock folded and a 16" barrel. If I had the funds and need, I would be interested in getting one and rebarrelling to something like an 8.5-10.5" 6.8 SPC barrel. I am not even sure what would be involved, but I am sure it could be done.

If you still want to go short, have you looked at the AR pistols?

PTK
January 19, 2012, 09:28 AM
I ended up with a PS90 and couldn't be happier. If the LWS in 300 BLK was around when I bought it a few years ago, it would have been time to sit down and think for a while. That said, I like 50rd mags more than 30rd mags, and I believe I would have gone with the PS90 anyway. :)

All that said, I've been wanting to SBR a Draco, but it's heavy, the magazine gets in the way, it's much louder, has less ammo, etc. It would be a toy, where the PS90 isn't. I've also gotten astounding accuracy out of the ring sight on the PS90, for what it's worth.

rjrivero
January 19, 2012, 12:51 PM
If you're interested in the 300 BLACKOUT, wait for the end of SHOT. I understand that AAC is going to be offering the Honey Badger. AR Action with a modified buffer system.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/wp-content/blogs.dir/5/files/aac-honey-badger/101211od_ausa11147.jpg

Sgt_R
January 20, 2012, 05:20 AM
^^^

Now that is just... wow. Any word yet on pricing or availability?

68wj
January 20, 2012, 08:40 AM
Great potential but still prototype and vaporware to us public.

RAINS
January 21, 2012, 01:49 AM
A sig 556 factory SBR folded in 21'. Put a short FH on it and it's damm near 20'. 28' stock open but you can get shorter stocks. Plus you've got a 10.5 barrel. Really though for PDW just buy a ps90.

Zoogster
January 21, 2012, 06:14 AM
rjrivero said: This could be easily countered by an Defense attorney explaining the LENGTHY process of legally obtaining an NFA item, including the background check, $200 Per item tax, and Federal Registration

On the contrary that actually counts against the person on trial to have that explained to the jury. It shows it was even more deliberate to intentionally go out of their way and through more trouble to acquire the weapon.
For example:
Any old weapon was not good enough for accused murderer/ person being sued for essentially being extra vicious, aka NFA owner in court after self defense.
No they go out of their way to hurt people, jump through extra legal hoops, fill out extra paperwork, pay additional fees, and really invest a lot of time and money in the best way to hurt other people. People like the deceased, a son, a father, former boy scout and choir boy, etc etc..


While weapon type typically plays little role in a clear cut self-defense scenario, if you start talking about scenarios where it does matter, a harder to obtain legal item can be even worse. It can be used to show a greater intent to have such a deadly thing to a jury, requiring more time and effort to obtain the weapon. Actual lethality is also less important than perception to the jury. Something your average person has not seen, does not possess, and that looks like something only the military or paramilitary police forces have is going to be perceived as worse than many deadlier common firearms.

Having it explained just how lengthy and difficult a process it was to obtain something your average person does not even buy and is not even legal to buy in the manner most people are familiar with makes a jury less able to relate to you.
It can be the difference between guy that used a gun to defend himself, and guy that is a gun nut who invests more time and effort than your typical gun owner in obtaining the weapon they used against someone.

The extra difficulty to acquire an NFA item does not count in your favor, it distances you from the members of jury.
As NFA items get more common, including SBR and suppressors, the effect of this will diminish. However do not for a second think that the extra difficulty to obtain them actually would help you, quite the contrary.

Zoogster
January 21, 2012, 06:34 AM
As for the actual OP's question, your typical PDW is a term used for a type of firearm intended to be short and compact, using a high rate of fire to compensate for a low recoil cartridge.
They are the improved modern submachineguns, many of which had to be further adapted with calibers to defeat light body armor which is standard for organized military forces and the types of personnel they will be used against today.


With only semi-auto fire such a weapon makes a lot less sense. More powerful cartridges are easier to control in semi-auto, so you lose more than you gain by using the type of cartridges designed to be mediocre individually buy effective in large numbers on full auto.
The 5.7x28 falls into this category, the P90 is more impressive at minimal recoil and 15 rounds per second for its short range purpose out of a small compact firearm that is easily controlled with both one or two hands.
Drop that to semi-auto rates of fire and you don't need that dramatic of a reduction in recoil by sacrificing individual round performance for better full auto performance. So would be much better served by a more potent and powerful round than offered by the platform.

Sgt_R
January 21, 2012, 07:49 AM
Drop that to semi-auto rates of fire and you don't need that dramatic of a reduction in recoil by sacrificing individual round performance for better full auto performance. So would be much better served by a more potent and powerful round than offered by the platform.

Exactly. I still believe the form factor (compact SBR approx. 20" OAL) has merit for civilian use, but if you're going to be restricted to a semi-auto action, then the argument for using a less powerful cartridge (i.e. 5.7x28) make a lot less sense. Sure you get 50 rounds in a streamlined package, but other than that there is very little advantage to choosing a PS90 SBR over a Glock 17 SBR.

That's why I said I was looking for something with a bit more "punch." Originally I had 7.62x39 in mind, but the more I look into .300 BLK, the more I like it. An AR-15 SBR or pistol doesn't quite make it to 20" OAL assembled (damn that buffer tube anyway), but an 8" upper and standard lower would break down into an even smaller (if not immediately useful) package.

Decisions, decisions...

R

Sgt_R
January 21, 2012, 08:03 AM
Regarding the legal argument...

If someone breaks into my home, or otherwise threatens my life or the lives of my loved ones at a time and place where I have the ability to defend them, then I will use the most effective tool at my disposal to end the immediate threat. Period.

If that happens to be the Spyderco in my pocket, then so be it. If it's the Glock on my hip, so be it. If it's the tricked out Spikes Tactical lower w/ Noveske .300 BLK 8" SBR upper & AAC 762-SDN-6 in my closet, then so be it. I will use the most effective tool at my disposal to end the immediate threat. Period.

R

PTK
January 21, 2012, 01:18 PM
Sure you get 50 rounds in a streamlined package, but other than that there is very little advantage to choosing a PS90 SBR over a Glock 17 SBR.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/SS195%20FMJ%20and%20SS197%20ballistic%20tip%20%28bare%20and%20heavy%20clothing%29.html

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2196428067/fn-ss197sr-ammunition-57x28mm-fn-40-grain-hornady-v-max

http://www.brassfetcher.com/124gr%20+P%20Speer%20Gold%20Dot.html

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/20rds-9mm-speer-gold-dot-124gr-p-hp-ammo/cName/9mm-hollow-point-ammo

Similar performance, but lower round count and more expensive ammo rather kills the reasons you stated. :)


EDIT: Sorry, mixed up the links. :)

That said, 300BLK would be better than either 9x19 or 5.7x28. I still think I'd choose a streamlined package and 50rds, though.

Sgt_R
January 21, 2012, 02:40 PM
I really don't want to get into a caliber war here, but:


You're comparing ballistics results from a Glock 26, not a Glock 17. The 9mm suffers a lot more from a short barrel than the 5.7x28 (though, it's worth noting that the 9mm still got better gel penetration, even when comparing the 16" barrel PS90 to the 3.5" barrel G26).
You're comparing a 50 round box of 5.7x28 to a 20 round box of 9mm; I buy my Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P (good choice by the way) in 50 round LE boxes for about $30. Still more expensive per round, but not by as much (hey, that heavier projectile costs money).
You're comparing defensive ammo only. I buy 9mm training ammo for about $10 per 50 (115gr PMC, Magtech, American Eagle, etc.). There is no such option for the 5.7x28, unless you handload (and you can still handload 9mm for less).
The Glock 17 SBR has available 33 round magazines. The PS90 still beats that by an impressive 17 rounds, but the 33 rounders do close the gap some.
The Glock 17 SBR breaks down into a more compact package for transport.
In subsonic ammo, 9mm is the clear winner; 147gr @ 900 fps beats 40gr @ 900 fps any day of the week.
You can always remove the stock from the Glock 17 SBR, slap in a 17 round magazine, and CCW it as a pistol. Again, the PS90 gives you no such option.

Now, you could easily respond with an equally impressive bulleted list of the 5.7x28's advantages. It's flatter shooting past 100 yards, for one. I have considered the advantages and drawbacks of each caliber, and for my purposes, I have eliminated 5.7x28 from consideration. If you believe it's the best choice for your purposes, then good on ya'. I'm not trying to change your mind, and I'm sure it will serve you well.

That said, I think the .300 BLK is superior to both in a PDW platform, and is probably what I'll be going with for this project.

R

PTK
January 21, 2012, 02:56 PM
That said, I think the .300 BLK is superior to both in a PDW platform

Agreed, as I said in my previous post. :)

As for the G26... whoops. :banghead:

Actually, on all your points, I agree. I just don't want anyone to assume the 5.7 is anemic - sure, it's a pistol round and is in that class, not a rifle round. Can't argue that! :)

Seems we're on the same page, really. And yes, the GDHP 124gr +p is in my 9x19 CCW. Great ammo. :D

Sgt_R
January 21, 2012, 03:11 PM
I just don't want anyone to assume the 5.7 is anemic - sure, it's a pistol round and is in that class, not a rifle round. Can't argue that! :)

Nah, I'm not one of those guys. I don't think the 5.7 is a bad round, and if I could legally buy the ammo the platform was designed around, I'd be the first guy in line at the fun store. There is definately room in my collection for a fast, lightweight projectile designed to defeat light body armor. Niche product? Certainly. Still pretty cool though.

Even in its current, slightly neutered configuration, it's still a potent defensive round, and a PS90 or FN57 may turn up in my safe eventually anyway. You just never know. ;)

Edit: re-reading the OP, I guess I did kind of come across that way. "Anemic & expensive ammo" doesn't leave much room for interpretation, and obviously isn't entirely accurate when compared to a pistol round like the 9x19; in my defense, in the OP I was comparing it to 7.62x39, but still. My bad.

R

PTK
January 21, 2012, 03:46 PM
You're a stand-up guy. Thanks for being up front about that. This is why I love THR so very much :)

kfgk14
January 22, 2012, 01:49 PM
KRISS SBR? folds up very compact (16"), you get 30 rounds of .45ACP, and when unfolded it's still only 24" long. Minimal recoil, hard-hitting, 5.6 lb's.

Not to mention, it plays nice with a .45 ACP Glock, if you own one.

Sgt_R
January 22, 2012, 01:58 PM
I did consider the KRISS. There's word they're coming out with a sequel in 9mm, .40, and .45; should be interesting, to say the least, and it's something I'll be keeping an eye on.

Still though, if I SBR something in a handgun caliber, it'll probably be a Glock 17. For one, it's the cheapest option (since I already have the Glock), and it can do almost everything it's bigger brothers can, and a few things they can't.

R

PTK
January 22, 2012, 02:06 PM
You just have to keep bringing up how versatile a SBR G17 is, don't you? ;)

Now I'm feeling a need to drop $200 on mine...

Sgt_R
January 22, 2012, 02:11 PM
Hah! You know, even if I get this .300 BLK PDW thing off the ground, I've just about talked myself into the G17 SBR. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more it sounds like a pretty good idea...

PTK
January 22, 2012, 02:22 PM
....darn you and your vile thoughts! :D

Seriously, I should have thought about this years ago. I'll have to start poking around for a folding front grip and stock, though. Should be a fun project. Certainly keep us posted on the 300BLK project, too!

Sgt_R
January 22, 2012, 02:44 PM
Actually, since the serial numbered part of a Glock is the frame, it might make more sense to SBR a G35. Then you've got the longer barrel, the ability to convert to 9mm or .357 SIG at will, and you could even buy a G22 upper and throw it on there if you really wanted the shorter slide for something...

Edit: on the other hand, you could do the same thing in reverse with a G17. Buy a G35 slide assembly, convert to .357 SIG, and rock out with your Glock out. :eek:

PTK
January 22, 2012, 02:52 PM
And since I still have a G17 here... You're a bad influence, but the good kind, if that makes any sense! :)

Sgt_R
January 22, 2012, 02:55 PM
And since I still have a G17 here...

Yeah, I hear ya'. It's just so much more tempting when you're sitting there staring at the stupid thing, thinking to yourself, "You know, $200 and 6 months from now, I could have a brand new toy to play with!"

rjrivero
January 22, 2012, 06:02 PM
While weapon type typically plays little role in a clear cut self-defense scenario, if you start talking about scenarios where it does matter, a harder to obtain legal item can be even worse.

Zoogster makes some very valid points, that go along with AlexanderA's points earlier. Perception can make a huge difference.

If you end up in a trial and your choice of firearm is brought to Jury, then you can find yourself in a dirty situation, no matter what the outcome.

Definately worth the food for thought. Thanks Guys.

PTK
January 22, 2012, 06:54 PM
Yeah, I hear ya'. It's just so much more tempting when you're sitting there staring at the stupid thing, thinking to yourself, "You know, $200 and 6 months from now, I could have a brand new toy to play with!"
And now that's what I'll be thinking. Thanks a lot. :neener:

mgregg85
January 22, 2012, 07:35 PM
How about the SU-16D9... 19.9" with the stock folded, 3.7 pounds.
http://www.keltecweapons.com/uploaded_files/ourguns/gallery/b_30a2df50990f1327831944d5d11372c5CIMG2501.jpg

Takes standard AR mags and the barrel is threaded 1/2-28mm same as an AR-15.

PTK
January 22, 2012, 07:39 PM
Now I'm incredibly glad I sold my PLR16 a few years ago, or I would be sending in TWO stamps... :D

Sgt_R
January 23, 2012, 06:28 AM
You know, I hadn't considered the Kel-Tec. I'm not really enamored with 5.56mm in an SBR platform, but now I wonder if the SU-16 could be rebarreled into 10" or so of .300 BLK...

Saakee
January 23, 2012, 06:43 AM
They're coming out with a .300 I believe.

Sgt_R
January 23, 2012, 06:53 AM
Do they take standard AR type barrels? I'm rather uninformed when it comes to most of Kel-Tec's offerings, and I'm not sure how much parts commonality exists between the SU series and a traditional AR.

MasterSergeantA
January 23, 2012, 10:10 AM
Do they take standard AR type barrels? I'm rather uninformed when it comes to most of Kel-Tec's offerings, and I'm not sure how much parts commonality exists between the SU series and a traditional AR.
They do not. And there is very little parts commonality between the two.

PTK
January 23, 2012, 10:17 AM
Just from looking at the manual (http://www.keltecweapons.com/uploaded_files/resources/f_746d3b73180b7935894102f8677a6addKel%20Tec%20PLR-16%20owners%20manual.pdf) with with parts breakdown on page 7 of 12, I see no serious issues with re-barreling. If there is no plastic formed to hold things in place that would be damaged or destroyed by removing the barrel, any competent gunsmith ought to be able to handle it. :)

mgregg85
January 23, 2012, 01:59 PM
Check out KTOG, one guy there rebarreled his SU-16 but it was a lot of work.

They are coming out with a .300 blk model so it would follow that they would make a D version of it. Who knows how long that will take though.

mgregg85
January 23, 2012, 02:01 PM
Here you go, this guy did a 6.8 conversion...
http://www.thektog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=226144

Saakee
January 24, 2012, 07:18 AM
How about the SU-16D9... 19.9" with the stock folded, 3.7 pounds.
http://www.keltecweapons.com/uploaded_files/ourguns/gallery/b_30a2df50990f1327831944d5d11372c5CIMG2501.jpg

Takes standard AR mags and the barrel is threaded 1/2-28mm same as an AR-15.
You know, one of these in .458 SOCOM SBR'ed would be fun!

Sgt_R
January 24, 2012, 08:37 AM
You know, one of these in .458 SOCOM SBR'ed would be fun!

If you're serious, the thread that mgregg85 linked to is a good read. Technically, it's well above my skill level as a 'garage gunsmith,' but I found some interesting stuff in there.

R

MasterSergeantA
January 24, 2012, 09:57 AM
You know, one of these in .458 SOCOM SBR'ed would be fun!
If that is your idea of "fun", I shudder to think what would make you frown. ;-)

rjrivero
January 24, 2012, 10:42 AM
{re: Honey Badger}Now that is just... wow. Any word yet on pricing or availability?

AAC announced at shot that it will be available for LEO and Military later this year. Expecting civilian sales next year. Sorry. I've been eying this thing for MONTHS and very chance I get I badger AAC to make them available. No joy for at least 2 years.

I'll be waiting.....


Until then, I do have enough toys to keep me occupied! ;)

PTK
January 24, 2012, 05:50 PM
Two years to bring a product like that to market? That means, to me at least, that AAC won't be releasing them to civilians until they can actually make enough to meet demand.

Saakee
January 24, 2012, 09:45 PM
If you're serious, the thread that mgregg85 linked to is a good read. Technically, it's well above my skill level as a 'garage gunsmith,' but I found some interesting stuff in there.

R
I read it last night, it was quite interesting and DEFINITELY above my skill level as well.

Rifleman 173
February 10, 2012, 09:20 AM
A pdw isn't meant to have great range to it. The theory behind pdws is that they get used at close range and often involve using pistol caliber cartridges for their ammo. I keep a Marlin .44 magnum lever action saddle carbine around my house for close range social events. It is a sweet shooter, very accurate and launches a big bore .44 magnum bullet like it is going out of style. I love my little carbine. So a good lever action carbine is something else for you to consider.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894centerfire/1894CSS.asp

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894centerfire/1894C.asp

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894Centerfire/1894.asp

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