Shoulder Rigs... Convince me.

I've become quite used to IWB carry and have some mediocre holsters for the task. Lately, though, I've been contemplating getting a shoulder rig. I'm having trouble visualizing a scenario in which I would wear one though. With today's fashion (I'm not hip, ask my kids. But everyone isn't wearing sport jackets and suits everywhere like in the days of old either), how do you conceal it? Ok, so I'm walking my dog or watching soccer and have no intention of removing my jacket, I can see that. Under my gear on my bike? Just don't stop for lunch and take it off. Under a shirt? Can't draw. Under a sport jacket or suit jacket? If it isn't buttoned, it's hanging open. Out to dinner? Again, keep that coat on. LEO? Sure, I get that. People expect to see a gun there. So civilians... help me see the light.

Well, I'm not hip either but I have a Galco Miami Classic for my 1911 Colt Govt. I'll wear it over a T-shirt under a flannel shirt or anything from a windbreaker to a parka. Yes the ability to draw is compromised. Just keep your situitational awareness open and you'll be fine. I prefer this for social situitations when my usual OWB might be exposed or bumped into. I don't like IWB and open carry is lawful (and almost common) here so most times I don't care who sees it.

Hope this helps.

FWIW: I've tried it both with and without the tiedown to attach it to a belt and prefer no tie downs. Two spare mags helps to balance the rig.

It's only as hot as your cover garment and if the shirt under the rig is scratchy / itchy try one made from a different fabric.
Consult your spouse if you do not know what "garment" or "fabric" means or how it affects comfort. :neener:

I got no light.

I think I have six shoulder holsters hanging in the gun room closet, and I haven't used one in years.

Hot, sticky, itchy, & uncomfortable in the summer.
Impossible to get too, sticky, itchy, and uncomfortable under a coat or layering in the winter.

rc

I have several shoulder holsters that I have used successfully on occasion. My problem with shoulder holsters are
1. Muscle memory tells me to instinctively go for my sidearm on my strong side hip. There are YEARS of traing / familiarization as a Soldier and as a Law Enforcement Officer that tells me to look for my weapon on my hip. I belive changing carry positions could cause your reaction to an emergency to be slower?

2. From a weapon retention standpoint shoulder holsters are practically worthless. If or once bad guy is aware you have a weapon in shoulder holster...gun grab attempts are difficult to defeat or protect against. Weapon retention options are better if your weapon is on or at least near your side.

3. Concealment is very possible BUT takes more effort in my experience to balance concealment with accessability.

4. Trying to re-holster one handed is difficult if not impossible unless the shoulder rig is anchored to your belt. You also have a higher risk of muzzeling someone or something you don't want to.

I believe that shoulder holsters may have a place and work well for some people in some situations. I however rarely find they are the best carry method for my individual needs. YMMV.

I had a Galco that I seldom used.
I wish I had bought the dinky little Rogers rig of the 1970s. A thin but hard leather holster and nylon straps. A friend's was light and comfortable but I did not need one and did not buy.

Retro... I hadn't thought about wearing under a flannel. I have a "Saturday" shirt that my wife would love to burn. I bet I could get away with one under there. My Sig239 in that rig may work for certain social situations. I was actually looking at the Galco Miami. If it doesn't work, it will join dozens of others in the land (box) of un-loved leather.

I've had several discussions with guys who have "tried" them, but they always seem to find their way into the "well they goes another one of my bright ideas" box. I have one of them too.

They do not seem to be very comfortable.

For me the Galco Classic is the most comfortable way to carry my G23 or G30 whenever I'm wearing a jacket. I gave a nice leather shoulder holster to a brother in law but he never uses it, opting to use a nylon Uncle Mike's all the time instead.

Just a thought to those who have a stash of holsters not being used anymore, put em up for sale. Someone will buy them.

nrastore.org,plenty of diff ways to carry conceled with their clothing.

how do you conceal it?I don't believe a shoulder rig conceals well under a suit jacket; maybe you can get by with a great rig (think Mitch Rosen) and a thin pistol (think Walther PPS), but it is tough. You have to get the jacket tailored while you're wearing the rig, and it's still tough. Patterned jackets work better than plain or striped; dark works better than light.

They work best under leather jackets. Warm-up jackets maybe: the heavier the better. (some folks use vests, but the arm holes are usually large enough to reveal the holster straps, if not the gun.)

They are great for seated draws, like when in a car (I practiced that yesterday! :)).

The worst part: 90% of shoulder holster users (my estimate) do NOT know how to draw from them without either crossing their off-side upper arm, or the entire world to their off-side...

Or both. :banghead:Trying to re-holster one handed is difficult if not impossible unless the shoulder rig is anchored to your beltNot true with a Mitch Rosen rig. And practice.You also have a higher risk of muzzeling someone or something you don't want to.Who is this "you"? With good technique, no higher risk.

I went a different route, and I love my shoulder holster! Mine only carries a backup gun, however. My main is a .38 or 9mm, in appendix IWB carry.

I made mine, based on a double Mercharness. It's a Kydex holster on one side and Kydex mag/light/knife carrier on the other. Harness is paracord, with pieces of rubber tubing to secure everything. A piece of tubing is at the X of the harness, and I added a few stitches there to keep the rig from mis-adjusting itself when I draw.

Pistol is a Kel-Tec P-32. The other side is a spare mag, Inova X1 and a Boker Microcom. The rig is very well balanced and comfortable. It conceals under a loose shirt -- even a t-shirt. The balanced double carry allows totally discrete carry under a light vest, while one-sided shoulder rigs usually show a strap (or more) through one of the arm holes.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=157293&stc=1&d=1327109037
Knife shown here has been replaced by a much smaller Boker Microcom

I'm thinking of replacing the Kydex of the offside with thin leather for better concealment.

It works for me,
Dirty Bob

What I like about my shoulder rig is that it is fast to slip on. I can be out the door, armed faster. I didn't really appreciate them until I gained too much weight and my mid section stopped hiding things.

I find them comfortable, and I think they carry heavy guns better.

I don't understand threads where people ask for convincing. Perhaps they aren't for you, even if I love them.

I also sometimes think about carrying two guns. Where would you carry if you were to add another gun?

Oh, I think also different holsters can be used for specific circumstances, say long drives or sitting for long periods makes me prefer a shoulder rig over my usual 4 o'clock carry position.

But I'm certain I couldn't convince you, nor do I have any interest in trying to.

I really am open to it and want some ideas as to how it's done. I'm by no means against it. I'm just trying to figure out what I need to wear it under Other than a jacket.

I think they go well with jackets and haven't tried much else. I have just used a heavy dress shirt, but I'm not a big fan of it, especially on windy days.

I have used a sweater and a sweat shirt, but you lose access quickly.

One thing I don't like about them is when I remove my cover garment the gun sticks out like a sore thumb, with belt carry I can sit in a booth and no one even notices.

One thing I do like is that my backup .32 is handy when driving, while my appendix IWB "always" pistol is hard to reach under the seat belt.

I think of shoulder holsters as a "niche" method of carry, that works for some but not for others.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

Shoulder rigs are seldom a better option than strong side belt carry (whether inside or outside the waist band). They are generally more difficult to conceal, and the muzzling and weapon retention issues have already been discussed.

Having said that, there are three scenarios I can envision where a shoulder rig would be a superior option.

1) If you spend most of your time seated (e.g. truck drivers). A shoulder rig does allow easier access from a seated position, especially in a vehicle where the seat belt interferes with one's ability to change position.

2) If you have lower back problems. It may sound counterintuitive that hanging a gun from the shoulders would be easier on the back than hanging it on the belt, but people with lower back problems often find getting a heavy gun belt off their hips helps, and may be able to wear a shoulder rig more comfortably.

3) If you must be outdoors in very cold weather, and a heavy/long coat would interfere with your ability to access a gun carried on the waist, or else would require you to wear such a coat unbuttoned in order to access it -- not exactly desirable in very cold weather. A heavy winter coat can be worn with just the top button unbuttoned, and one can still generally access a gun in a shoulder holster.

Perhaps other realistic scenarios will occur to others, but these three are all I can think of, off the top of my head, where a shoulder holster would be a better option. For most people, and in most situations, strong side carry is almost always easier, more concealable, and more practical.

The only gunmen I know who regularly use shoulder holsters are all bicycle and motorcycle riders. I, personally, am not going to be able to convince you to use one of these things. I've always found them good for little else than hunting; and, after awhile, they always become a pain in my neck.

Over the years I've owned several of the very best shoulder holsters money could buy; but, thank you, I've learned to keep my gun on my waist; and, like you, I don't consider myself to be, 'cool' either. I'm just fast and practical out of my Kydex speed scabbards! (Which I usually wear inside my belt for added retention.) ;)

Ditto to what the Glock Doctor said. They aren't for me, either. I'm sure they have a place and they do look cool, but just aren't always the best choice.

weapon retention issuesI know of no weapon retention issues with well made shoulder holsters that exceed the weapon retention issues of standard, non-LE hip holsters.

It is true, however, that no one is making Level 2, 3 or 4 security shoulder holsters.

The only time the rig worked well for me was under a leather jacket riding a motorcycle. I haven't used it since I sold the bike.

I know of no weapon retention issues with well made shoulder holsters that exceed the weapon retention issues of standard, non-LE hip holsters.

It is true, however, that no one is making Level 2, 3 or 4 security shoulder holsters.
I don't think anyone is alleging that the shoulder itself is in any way less secure. A well made shoulder holster will hold the weapon as securely as a well made belt holster. Rather, the issue is with the position in which the gun is placed on your body. A shoulder holster puts it in a perfect position for an assailant facing you to grab it with his right hand (and he's likely to be right handed) already in a firing position on the grip and pull it straight back toward him (since the holster is designed to release the gun in that direction) with the muzzle pointed at you. Conversely, a belt holster will usually require him to grab it, hand upside down on the grip, using his left hand, or reach across your body with his right, pull the gun upward (a more awkward motion for the assailant), and then reorient the gun in a firing grip before he can shoot you with it.

The latter scenario is easier for the gun carrier to defend against, given the mechanics of the human body.

I generally wear three-button suits for work and a shoulder rig works much better to conceal lines and "bumps" than does a waistband rig, not to mention the comfort level of a shoulder rig outweighs that of my OWB holster, especially in seated positions. Then again, my carry piece is not overly large, so that may contribute somewhat.

To each his own.

A shoulder holster puts it in a perfect position for an assailant facing you to grab it...Maybe it's just me, but if I was going to do a gun-grab, it would not be from the front, with the gun-carrier's eyes and hands all over me. I'd try it from the back, and a rear hip holster would be my friend. Pull it out, and I'm perfectly positioned to shoot him in the back.

I've heard the same argument regarding off-side, butt-forward ("cross-draw") carry. Actually, I am far better able to fend off a gun-grab from the front than from the side or rear; and I don't think I'm alone.

The mechanics of a draw from the shoulder holster (if I've identified the person approaching as a threat) also allow me to acquire a grip on the gun and put the muzzle on target...before it's out of the holster or out of concealment. And having your hand already on the gun is a great way to defeat a gun-grab.

I find shoulder rigs very comfortable, especially for bigger guns, but don't use them for concealed carry. I wear them out in the woods where I don't have to bother about concealing. IWB for CC, all the way

I didn't know if a shoulder holster would work for me so, I bought the inexpensive Galco Carry Lite rig for testing the concept out. Most of the time that I used it, I wore it over an undershirt and under a concealed carry type of shirt from 5.11 that has two real buttons and about four small snaps. Access to my Commander was very simple by going through two of the snaps with my hand. I like tie-downs. I like the thin leather straps.

I think that some suits could be tailored to accommodate a shoulder holster. I think any shirt could be altered to include snaps slightly offset from the buttons.

Get an inexpensive rig, leather or even Uncle Mike's Pro Pak (?) and check out the concept for yourself. I've carried from my ankle, to my crotch, waist, belly, and shoulder and most methods required me to make some kind of accommodation in my clothing choices, so making a change for a shoulder rig, for me, is not a big deal, if that's how I would want to carry most of the time.

I use a Galco Miami Classic with my 1911 in the colder months, when I can wear a coat. I have worn it in the warmer months except when it's so hot that I look odd wearing an open shirt over a t-shirt. I find that if I wear just a shirt over it, I need to make sure the wind doesn't blow it open.

And yes, practice drawing safely, it isn't rocket science.

Maybe it's just me, but if I was going to do a gun-grab, it would not be from the front, with the gun-carrier's eyes and hands all over me. I'd try it from the back, and a rear hip holster would be my friend. Pull it out, and I'm perfectly positioned to shoot him in the back.
But we're not talking about a gun grab occurring in a vacuum. Under what circumstances is it likely to take place? I can't remember ever hearing of a case where a guy was peacefully minding his own business, and some completely unseen bad guy crept up behind him, and snatched his gun before he ever knew anything was going down. Perhaps there is such an instance out there of which I am ignorant. But this is not the usual way a gun grab occurs.

Most gun grabs occur during the course of a confrontation. Which means you will likely be facing your assailant.

I've heard the same argument regarding off-side, butt-forward ("cross-draw") carry. Actually, I am far better able to fend off a gun-grab from the front than from the side or rear; and I don't think I'm alone.
Actually, you aren't, even though it may seem that way. Again, it's all a matter of body mechanics. If I am facing you, it is far easier for me to snatch your shoulder holstered gun, given its closer proximity to my right hand, and the fact that I can immediately lay my hand on it in a firing grip, and pull it straight back toward me, with it already facing you. I can't do that with a gun you're wearing on a belt holster (unless it's a cross draw). On a belt holster, it's more awkwardly placed from my point of view, and it's closer to your gun hand. The awkwardness for me of getting a gun out of your strong side belt holster (if I am facing you) makes it slower for me to execute a gun grab, and this gives you more time to react. That's the crucial thing. The fact that your gun is closer to your hand also very slightly reduces the time it will take you to react, but in a case like this, even fractions of a second may be crucial.

Remember something: a man who would grab your gun has the advantage of knowing when he will initiate his attempt, and you have to react to it. And action is always better than reaction. The faster he can be, the more likely he is to succeed before you can react. If you wear your gun in a position that reduces the time it will take him, he has yet another advantage.

The mechanics of a draw from the shoulder holster (if I've identified the person approaching as a threat) also allow me to acquire a grip on the gun and put the muzzle on target...before it's out of the holster or out of concealment. And having your hand already on the gun is a great way to defeat a gun-grab.
I'm not following you how you can put the muzzle on target before even coming out of concealment from a shoulder holster. Unless you're wearing a horizontal rig, turning your back on him, and planning to pirouette around and shoot him through your jacket. I'm not seeing this.

But again, I remind you that most gun grabs occur in the course of a confrontation, and often one that began with no weapons involved, then during the fight, the assailant becomes aware that the man he's fighting has a gun, and makes a grab for it. Depending on the circumstances, you may not be justified in drawing your gun on the guy you see as a threat. If he has no gun and you draw yours, you may be putting yourself in the wrong, from a legal perspective.

There are all kinds of circumstances that may apply in any given scenario, and you can always come up with ones where the shoulder holster might be equal or better for retention. But in the majority of cases, cross draw or shoulder holsters are easier for an assailant to grab your gun from. That's why you don't see many law enforcement personnel using them.

I wear a Mitch Rosen shoulder holster carrying a pair of Glock 19s when driving on my regular long trips as it allows a draw from within a vehicle and is comfortable. Cover garments are usually an open flannel shirt or coat in winter and an open shirt over a tee shirt in summer. This works really well for my trips.

That being said, the shoulder holster is a specialty rig for me as I much prefer IWB. There is also a need for constant practice, especially drawing while seated in the vehicle. I found that shoulder holster carry is demanding and is somewhat slower than IWB when not in a vehicle.

But we're not talking about a gun grab occurring in a vacuum.I'm not sure what "we're" talking about. I was talking about the gun-grab I would prefer to make.Most gun grabs occur during the course of a confrontation.You of course have a study or statistics to back up your statement that most gun grabs on non-LEO like me occur not by surprise from the rear? If not, let me make up my own statistic:

"Most gun grabs occur when the gun has already been drawn." So the holster doesn't matter.

:rolleyes:Actually, you aren'tInteresting. Don't know me, don't know my training and experience with disarms/weapon retention. And yet you know what I'm good at better than I do.

Get over yourself.I'm not following you how you can put the muzzle on target before even coming out of concealment from a shoulder holster. Unless you're wearing a horizontal rig, turning your back on him, and planning to pirouette around and shoot him through your jacket. I'm not seeing this.Why am I not surprised.

Hey, maybe your training (and I assume you've had some regarding shoulder holster draws) has been different than mine. Maybe your rig is different. But what I can in fact do (and have done many times in training and practice) has little to do with what you can "see."But in the majority of cases, cross draw or shoulder holsters are easier for an assailant to grab your gun from.Again: statistics, please. If this is just your opinion, then fine, no evidence required. But you seem to be claiming it as established fact.

I watched the instructional videos on the Kangaroo Holsters website, showing how to safely draw from one of their pouch holsters through the neck opening of a loose-fitting polo shirt. It looks like it has possibilities.

I'm not sure what "we're" talking about. I was talking about the gun-grab I would prefer to make.
Since when does what you prefer have anything to do with it? Violent confrontations very seldom occur as we would prefer. I am more concerned with what is likely than with what I would like.

You of course have a study or statistics to back up your statement that most gun grabs on non-LEO like me occur not by surprise from the rear? If not, let me make up my own statistic:

"Most gun grabs occur when the gun has already been drawn." So the holster doesn't matter.
I am a law enforcement officer and all the cases of which I am aware involve LEOs. Even there, I am not aware of any instances where someone snuck up, ninja-like, behind an officer (or civilian for that matter), snatched his gun out of his belt holster and plugged him. If you are, by all means, let me hear it. But when planning for self defense, don't you agree that it is far more beneficial to train for things which have happened, and are known to have happened, and which therefore seem more likely to happen, than for hypothetical possibilities which have never or seldom been observed to happen? In an ideal world, we could train for all eventualities. In the real world, we have a finite amount of training time. Given the impossibility of being prepared for every conceivable circumstance, doesn't it make more sense to use that finite amount prepare for the likelier threat?

Hey, maybe your training (and I assume you've had some regarding shoulder holster draws) has been different than mine. Maybe your rig is different. But what I can in fact do (and have done many times in training and practice) has little to do with what you can "see."
Quote:Quote:
Actually, you aren't
Interesting. Don't know me, don't know my training and experience with disarms/weapon retention. And yet you know what I'm good at better than I do.
I know body mechanics. Unless you are configured differently than the rest of the human race, then a gun in a belt holster is going to be both closer to your hand and farther away from your opponent's, and is going to require a more awkward motion to snatch it from your holster, from an assailant facing you (the likeliest scenario), than a gun you carry in a shoulder rig would. Period.

A shoulder rig puts the gun farther from your hand, and closer to your opponent's, and moreover means he won't have to shift his grip on it after getting it out. Period.

This means it will be more awkward for him, and take him longer to get your gun out and shooting, again, assuming he is facing you, which, again, is most likely.

In real world fights, what often makes the difference is getting the critical strikes in before the opponent can react. You get hit because you couldn't react in time to dodge or intercept or block. You get your gun snatched because you couldn't react in time to prevent it. Anything that decreases his action time and increases your reaction time is going to be to his advantage. And again, he already has the advantage of action, while you must react.

And that's the thing you are probably missing. There is a problem with weapon retention drills: you know what's about to happen. In a real fight, you won't have that luxury. Weapon retention drills, like all combat drills, are useful and necessary to build skills. You can't become proficient without them. But they occur in a controlled environment, where the participants each know what the other is about to do. This means that, in a drill, when your opponent starts to move, you react according to a preset plan. You try to do this enough times to put the sequence of motions into your muscle memory so that you can do it without conscious thought in the real world. But before you can even do that, your mind must perceive and assess the threat and you must have time to react to it. In the real world, when you don't have the luxury of knowing exactly what your opponent's next move is going to be, you may find yourself defeated before you can react. That's why anything that increases your reaction time is going to be a disadvantage, and it's why things that work in training don't always work so smoothly in the real world.

Once again, I readily concede that in some circumstance a the mechanics would make a shoulder holster harder to grab from (e.g. being knocked down and having your assailant on your back). But for most situations, where you are more likely to be still on your feet and facing the threat, the shoulder holster, which puts the gun closer to the assailant, is going to be at a slight disadvantage for retention.

Get over yourself.
Follow your own advice. Just because someone criticizes or questions your assertion is no excuse to react as if someone had just insulted your child. Even if you are wrong, why take it so personally? Grow up.

Why am I not surprised.

Hey, maybe your training (and I assume you've had some regarding shoulder holster draws) has been different than mine. Maybe your rig is different. But what I can in fact do (and have done many times in training and practice) has little to do with what you can "see."
Alright, why don't you drop the attitude, and explain it to me. Rationally. Post photos if need be. Explain to me how you can take a gun, still in a shoulder holster (which must have the muzzle of the gun pointed downward, rearward, or occasionally upward) and orient it so that the muzzle covers an opponent in front of you, and yet not draw the gun from the holster or break concealment, or make a motion so unnatural looking as to draw attention to yourself. I make no claims to know everything. If you can show me how this is possible, I would be more than happy to see how it is done. Hell, I own a couple of shoulder holsters, and it might even be useful for me.

I use one occasionally, it works great for larger guns. I wear one under a loose over-shirt or under a heavy shirt like a 5.11 or work shirt. I've also worn a kangaroo holster with smaller guns like a pm40.

In the case of a shoulder rig, is a higher-end rig much better than an uncle Mike's nylon? Strong side will still be my primary method, but I'm thinking walking, riding, motorcycling, etc...

Alright, why don't you drop the attitude, and explain it to me.I'm not the only one with attitude in this thread. Only one person here has called the other a child.

I've got a better idea: there is NOTHING I know that isn't known better and trained better by numerous good instructors. Put your time and money on the line and go get (some more) training on the shoulder holster.

I've been to classes with nationally famous instructors, and even there, the students usually (in the beginning) stand with crossed arms and "show me" attitudes. It isn't a question of whether the student already knows what they know (of course they do); it's whether they're willing to try what the instructor knows.

Me? I see you with crossed arms and up-turned eyes (:rolleyes:); in which case, I literally can't teach you anything. An instructor that you believe in and to whom you've paid cash? You might believe him.

Or: stop trying so hard to "not see" what I do; and to tell me what I'm probably missing. And figure it out yourself. You seem bright, and it's not that hard. I teach several draws from the shoulder holster, but I have a favorite, for the reasons described.don't you agree that it is far more beneficial to train for things which have happened, and are known to have happened, and which therefore seem more likely to happen, than for hypothetical possibilitiesNo. How many of your civilian gun-grabs were against civilians trained in weapon retention? Also, it doesn't matter what the statistics are: if I'm ever the target of an attempted gun-grab, it'll be what it is, not what the percentages said it should be.

I think one should train for all possibilities, figure out the ones that he is good at defending against, and the ones that he has trouble defending against. If I am worse at defending from a rear attack, why woudn't I like a shoulder holster?There is a problem with weapon retention drills: you know what's about to happen. In a real fight, you won't have that luxury.You're contradicting yourself (surprise). You just said that gun grabs happen during on-going confrontations. If I'm in a confrontation, I AM expecting a gun grab (why aren't you?).

It is ONLY if I am surprised from behind that I would not be anticipating it.

Hey: I can acccept that LEO and non-LEO have different perspectives. You seem to think the LEO way is the only way. Fine with me.

Yes, a higher-end rig is better at both concealment, comfort, and consistently keeping the gun in the same position for the presentation. I prefer horizontal rigs over vertical rigs as there is no need for the tie-downs. My personal preference is Mitch Rosen, but the NIB prices are more than I am willing to pay. I suggest looking for used high-end rigs. It is what I did and it saved me several hundred dollars over retail.

In the case of a shoulder rig, is a higher-end rig much better than an uncle Mike's nylon?

This is getting absurd. "Show me!" "No, you show ME!" "No, no! You show ME!" ... etc.

Loosedhorse, you are arguing some things that appear to be contrary to body mechanics and known training. You're asking everyone to believe you as though you're a trainer and we're all in class, but you're not showing anything or even explaining it. If you expect or desire anyone to accept what you are saying you're going to need to find a way to demonstrate it or explain it in great detail. "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proofs." If you don't care to do so, why participate? You can state that up is down and left is right, and it may be so, but no one's going to adopt your view if you can't take whatever means necessary to support your unusual claims.

IF you are attacked, jumped, accosted by someone it is likely to be very up-close and physical. Someone within a foot or two of your front (as many attackers would be) IS INDEED in a good position to put a hand on a weak-side carried firearm before you can. Possibly before you even see them or "identify them as a threat." Then they have a firing grip on your weapon, facing you with it. That's a bad thing.

You are claiming that this isn't so, or that it can't happen, or isn't likely to happen to you because of some factors you've alluded to.

You're going to have to explain that statement and support these fairly unusual claims -- or bow out of the debate if you can't. We aren't going to go 'round and 'round with no proofs or explanation to help others see why the conventional understanding is irrelevant or incorrect.

I don't see that Billy has made any statements that apply only to LEOs. In fact, I believe the LEO issue would be much different as most officers open-carry, generally in a strong-side retention holster these days. I believe that a law officer is much more subject to a "gun grab" from behind, as a surprise attack, as they are a visible authority figure (which puts them in an immediate adversarial relationship with certain elements) and their gun is known, and in a consistent location. Most of what Billy is saying seems to apply directly to concealed-carry, and rings true with what I know and have seen.

I'll bring up another point which does not stack up in the "win" column for shoulder rigs or cross-draw: If you are jumped or otherwise end up in a grappling situation (knocked down and pinned, bear-hugged, pinned against a wall, etc.) reaching across your body to draw your weapon becomes very difficult. Even if you already have your hand on your gun when you are bound up, drawing it and turning it to present will be almost impossible. Your muscles aren't strong enough in that direction to force off whatever pressure is binding you. A strong-side belt holster provides for a draw that is much harder to block or bind. Simply retracting the elbow will bring the gun to bear on some portion of an attacker's body if they are at your front, and even a shot to the hip, groin, leg, etc. will be a significant game-changer. (Look into some of SouthNarc's ground-fighting stuff.)

[Regardless of how the conversation develops, the next person to "snark-on" or insult the other won't be participating for a while. "(surprise)"]

You're contradicting yourself (surprise). You just said that gun grabs happen during on-going confrontations. If I'm in a confrontation, I AM expecting a gun grab (why aren't you?).

It is ONLY if I am surprised from behind that I would not be anticipating it.
I'm going to address only your last point, since I think Sam1911 did a good job addressing the others, and I feel no need to say more.

No, I'm not contradicting myself. You aren't quite understanding me, and maybe that's my fault for not making myself sufficiently clear.

I repeat, in a fight you do not have the luxury of knowing what's going to come next, like you do in training drills. You are up against an assailant. You are about to be attacked. But what form will that attack take? Will he try to knock your block off? Will he draw a knife and try to stab you? Will he draw his own gun? Is he merely distracting you while a partner is slipping up on you from behind? You don't know what's next. You won't know until you either see him make his move, or do something that telegraphs what that move will be. And perhaps he will successfully fake you out. He may make a feint for your gun, and while you try to block that, he stabs you with the knife in his other hand you didn't see. The possibilities are endless.

There was an episode of an old TV series called Longstreet where Bruce Lee was teaching the series main character, played by James Franciscus, his Jeet Kune Do martial art. At one point, Lee's got Franciscus on the ground, in a position where he can do nothing with his hands or feet. Lee asks he what he's going to do now. Franciscus admits he's at a loss. Lee says "bite." Franciscus expresses surprise, but Lee replies, "you have teeth don't you? If biting is all you can do now, bite. But don't make a plan of biting. That's a good way to lose your teeth."

Lee stressed adaptability over all. And his point in that TV episode -- an essential one -- was combat is fluid, and one must be adaptable and flexible. If you you go into it too fixated on one possibility, you are likely to be surprised and overcome when your opponent does something else, something unexpected.

Sure I am "expecting" a gun grab in a fight. But only in the sense that I am trying to be ready for anything. And that throws me right back onto that dilemma of not knowing just what he's going to do next.

So I repeat, you have an advantage in training drills that you will not have on the street. In the training room, you partner up with a fellow student or instructor, and you practice weapon retention drills, you know exactly what move he's about to make. The burden of needing to evaluate the threat and choose the appropriate response is lifted from you. In the real world, faced with a fluid, real, life or death situation, all you'll have is the knowledge that your opponent is going to try something, but you won't know what. And that not knowing, that burden of having the choose the appropriate reaction, will add to to your reaction time. This is why we try to train and train a motion thousands of repetitions, to build it into muscle memory, so that the body can respond automatically, since there won't be time to make conscious decisions in a fight.

And if you haven't trained quite enough, or you're rusty, or your opponent fakes you out, or he's just much quicker than you, or any number of things, you can end up responding too slowly.

Now do you get what I'm trying to say?

Someone within a foot or two of your front (as many attackers would be) IS INDEED in a good position to put a hand on a weak-side carried firearm before you can.Sam, I guess I don't understand a few things. Have you tried retention training with a shoulder holster? I suppose you have tried (maybe a lot) of retention training with a strong-side hip holster: do you position that hip toward your attacker (coming at you from the front), or away? As the gun grab begins, do you stand there blithely, or do you put your hand on your weapon to help secure it in the holster? If the assailant already has the gun out of the holster, do you play tug of war (with the barrel facing you) or do you do something else, to keep the barrel off you?

All of the criticisms I've heard so far about shoulder holster retention seem to assume that I will place myself in the worst possible position; that I will use techniques that work for a strong side hip holster when defending a shoulder-holstered gun. I don't. Just one example: the shoulder holster postitions the gun perfectly for a "football carry" defense: both of your hands actively retaining the gun. Try that with a strong-side hip holster.

The criticisms seem (excuse me if I am wrong) to come from folks who have been told shoulder holsters are no good for retention, and therefore have never tried shoulder holster retention. I have. As I said, I find it "easier" (:rolleyes:) to retain my gun if I know the grab is coming (whether from the back, side, or front). With a shoulder holster, he HAS to come at me from where I can see him.

I'll go you one better: the easiest gun to retain (for me) is a crossdraw placed in front of the off-side hip, so that the butt is about midline front. Not really good for CCW, but a very good position for retention.Loosedhorse, you are arguing some things that appear to be contrary to body mechanics and known training.Contrary to "known training?" Well, I know it, and I seriously doubt that I've been trained by a mysterious cult.

I suspect you know how to do a weak-hand draw from your strong-side hip holster. It (for me) involves some swiveling at the waist, but no pirouetting (as Mr. Shears supposes).

Similarly, one of the draws from a horizontal shoulder holster involves bringing your off arm high and across to the right (to bring the shoulder holster toward center--at least my shoulder holster, which is not secured to the belt); the hand grabs the gun and (still in the holster) orients it toward the threat in a bladed stance (off arm, still up in a high block position, toward target). The gun can now be unsnapped and brought to a low-ready position without crossing the off-arm, and with the gun pointed at the target as it clears the holster.If you are jumped or otherwise end up in a grappling situation (knocked down and pinned, bear-hugged, pinned against a wall, etc.) reaching across your body to draw your weapon becomes very difficult.Yes, it does. It may in fact be impossible to draw without crossing your off-arm. Of course, if you're pinned with you back on the wall or the floor with a rear hip holster, you won't be able to get to the gun AT ALL.

The classic draw-inside-a-phone-booth problem: whould you rather have a hip holster or shoulder holster? I understand your answer may vary from mine, but please don't tell me that my preference for a shoulder holster during an obstructed draw is contrary to all known training.Most of what Billy is saying seems to apply directly to concealed-carryAgain, I guess I don't understand: if the gun is concealed, how did the grabber know to go for it? If it has come "unconcealed, it is because I have my hand on it.

As I asked before: to the extent that you have experience with gun grabs OF non-LEOs USING shoulder rigs: did those persons have retention training? Did they have situational awareness? What were the DETAILS?

I've shared. How about you? You are up against an assailant. You are about to be attacked. But what form will that attack take? Will he try to knock your block off? Will he draw a knife and try to stab you? Will he draw his own gun?Well, as my hand is already on my gun at that point, and my off arm in a block position--why does it matter?Now do you get what I'm trying to say?What I get is that you are still fixated on what I must be missing. Let me worry about that. I might suggest that your time would be better spent considering what you might be missing.

Well, as my hand is already on my gun at that point, and my off arm in a block position--why does it matter?
It matters. Suppose he is unarmed, but presses his attack (unlikely, but does happen sometimes). You aren't justified in using lethal force, but are you going to leave one hand tied up holding your gun and unavailable for any other form of self-defense. Again, don't make a plan of doing one thing no matter what. It's a good way to get caught flatfooted if your opponent does something you weren't expecting.

What I get is that you are still fixated on what I must be missing. Let me worry about that. I might suggest that your time would be better spent considering what you might be missing.
I am always trying to consider what I might be missing. You seem to be trying to dismiss what you are missing as of no consequence. None of us here has it all so completely figured out that we can afford to think that way.

I am not thick enough to not print with a shoulder rig.

Suppose he is unarmed, but presses his attackI am not LE. I will retreat. I will cry for help. I can drop to the ground and tell him I give up. If he presses his attack, with me in that position, he should be aware that attacking a man on the ground with a shod foot is lethal force, and I can respond in kind.

As you say, things happen when you get in a fight. He can have friends, you get pinned to the ground--and then you can lose your weapon no matter where it is. So, I must prevent all that.

I'm in a privileged position during a fight: I know there's a gun (mine), and I know if it comes out there's a HUGE likelihood that someone will die.

I am therefore held to a "higher standard of care" at law. I must try to disengage, even if it is personally embarrassing; and I must ensure retention of my weapon. My responses to an unreasoning attacker will be dictated by those two concerns...

And my need to survive.

Sam, I guess I don't understand a few things. Have you tried retention training with a shoulder holster?No. I have not. I haven't used one at all in about 15 years.

I suppose you have tried (maybe a lot) of retention training with a strong-side hip holster: do you position that hip toward your attacker (coming at you from the front), or away?What difference does that make? Why would you think you have the ability to position yourself the way you want? If I can do that, I'll position myself a block away or maybe in the next county. You seem to be picturing a "squaring off" situation where you're confronted and are staring the hombre down. I'm thinking of a wide variety of situations, many of which involve surprise and things going in less than perfect ways.

As the gun grab begins, do you stand there blithely, or do you put your hand on your weapon to help secure it in the holster? If the assailant already has the gun out of the holster, do you play tug of war (with the barrel facing you) or do you do something else, to keep the barrel off you?I assume these are rhetorical questions. Is this your teaching technique? Just explain your point.

All of the criticisms I've heard so far about shoulder holster retention seem to assume that I will place myself in the worst possible positionActually, I'm assuming that nothing will go as you planned. (If it does, GREAT.) That you might be reaching for your gun a little behind the curve, as it were.

Just one example: the shoulder holster positions the gun perfectly for a "football carry" defense: both of your hands actively retaining the gun. Try that with a strong-side hip holster.Ok.

As I said, I find it "easier" () to retain my gun if I know the grab is coming (whether from the back, side, or front).Er yes. Wouldn't that be nice?

With a shoulder holster, he HAS to come at me from where I can see him.But, if he grapples with you (whether or not he goes for your gun) you're going to have a harder time getting that gun in play from shoulder or cross-draw than if it was in a belt holster.

I'll go you one better: the easiest gun to retain (for me) is a crossdraw placed in front of the off-side hip, so that the butt is about midline front. Not really good for CCW, but a very good position for retention.Holding onto the gun is important. But it isn't the only thing you have to do with it. Heck, if retention itself is the primary goal, SmartCarry or Thunderwear might be the best bet! They sure won't snatch it out of your pants!

But we need to get it drawn (or drawn and turned around) to engage the attacker. That's a problem. Not impossible in some cases, but a lot harder than it has to be.

Similarly, one of the draws from a horizontal shoulder holster involves bringing your off arm high and across to the right (to bring the shoulder holster toward center--at least my shoulder holster, which is not secured to the belt); the hand grabs the gun and (still in the holster) orients it toward the threat in a bladed stance (off arm, still up in a high block position, toward target). The gun can now be unsnapped and brought to a low-ready position without crossing the off-arm, and with the gun pointed at the target as it clears the holster.Do you have any links to a video of this or a set of photos. I'm having trouble picturing it. Sounds like it works, but I just can't connect the dots. (I've actually been sitting here waving my arm around like a chicken for a while and I don't think I've "got it.")

Yes, it does. It may in fact be impossible to draw without crossing your off-arm. Of course, if you're pinned with you back on the wall or the floor with a rear hip holster, you won't be able to get to the gun AT ALL.Hold on. If you're pinned or grappled it is likely you won't be able to access a shoulder holster AT ALL, with either hand. Certainly not in time to do anything with it. If you're pinned against a wall while wearing a strong side waist holster, there are some pretty simple (and hard to block) moves you can make to clear the small amount of room you need to draw. Again, these are techniques that are "known" by which I mean taught by trainers who teach close-quarters gunfighting.

The classic draw-inside-a-phone-booth problem: whould you rather have a hip holster or shoulder holster?Yes, hip holster. I don't have to move my hand nearly as far to access the gun and don't have to perform nearly so large a motion to swing the gun into play -- directed at the attacker.

but please don't tell me that my preference for a shoulder holster during an obstructed draw is contrary to all known training.
Ok. But I don't know what to tell you then.

Again, I guess I don't understand: if the gun is concealed, how did the grabber know to go for it? If it has come "unconcealed, it is because I have my hand on it.It doesn't really matter how he found out. Maybe he found out because he felt it when he crashed into you and took you right to the ground.

What I get is that you are still fixated on what I must be missing. Let me worry about that. I might suggest that your time would be better spent considering what you might be missing. Oh boy...round and round we go.

Why would you think you have the ability to position yourself the way you want?Because that is the heart of all weapon retention training that I know.You seem to be picturing a "squaring off" situation where you're confronted No: this is the scenario (frontal confrontation) that I am being told makes the shoulder holster a negative, so I am adressing it. You tell me that THAT's the position where a shoulder holster will get me killed, and the criticize me for addressing it?Actually, I'm assuming that nothing will go as you planned.Then all training is useless. Fine.you're going to have a harder time getting that gun in play from shoulder or cross-draw than if it was in a belt holster.You explain why. If you're pinned against a wall while wearing a strong side waist holster, there are some pretty simple (and hard to block) moves you can makeI see: we should assume there are no moves a shoulder-holster wearer can make when "pinned"; but there are moves that a hip holster wearer can make when "pinned." Seems odd.But we need to get it drawn (or drawn and turned around) to engage the attacker.And same from a hip holster. When drawn, the barrel is pointed down, the gun must be turned.Oh boy...round and round we go.Sam--

I responded to your questions because I took you to be a fair, open listener. Yet here, you quote me from two posts ago. Mr. Shears (yes, I get the Sgt. Pepper reference, but I like formality) then responded in kind. When I next posted, I let it go; let him have the last swipe at me, and stayed on topic.

Yet you criticize me, not him. So congratulations: now, you've had the last swipe at me.

An objective observer might say your bias is showing.

I am not LE. I will retreat. I will cry for help. I can drop to the ground and tell him I give up. If he presses his attack, with me in that position, he should be aware that attacking a man on the ground with a shod foot is lethal force, and I can respond in kind.
If you think it will necessarily play out that way in court... dude, you really need to think again. I say that for your own good. It may, but then again, it may not. Massad Ayoob recently published a column about an armed man, on the ground being kicked and stomped by a man and two women (his neighbors). He shot the man, IIRC, and the man survived, but he was charged with either attempted murder or malicious wounding, and he went to trial, both times resulting in a hung jury. Finally, the prosecutor dropped the charges rather than go to trial a third time. The big issues both juries had was that all three of the man's attackers were unarmed. The defense made the point over and over again that three people stomping and kicking a man down on the ground was certainly potentially lethal, and justified the defendant's response with lethal force. But both times the prosecution didn't see it that way, and both juries had members who couldn't get past the black/white thinking that if your attackers are unarmed, you aren't justified in shooting them.

You really should not be so confident that a prosecutor of jury will see it your way. Again, I am a police detective. I am in court a lot, and I see firsthand that judges, prosecutors, and juries can be just as stupid, pigheaded, prejudiced, and so forth, as anyone else. When you go into court as a defendant, you see your fate put into the hands of people, who have all the flaws and failing common to human beings, and who may know little to nothing about self defense and firearms, and what they think they know is wrong, because it comes from what they've seen on movies and TV. Going to trial is something of a crapshoot.

Why would you think you have the ability to position yourself the way you want?Because that is the heart of all weapon retention training that I know.
Wait a minute... You mean to say that your weapon retention training is postulated on your having the ability and the time to position yourself the way you want? If I am not misinterpreting you, then you might want also to seriously reconsider where you are training. What makes you think that you will necessarily have the luxury of setting yourself the way you want? If it goes down differently, you are hardly going to be able to stop and politely tell your assailant that he's attacking you wrong, and he needs to let you get set the way you want to be first.

Why would you think you have the ability to position yourself the way you want?Because that is the heart of all weapon retention training that I know.I don't follow. Your weapon retention training requires that the scenario forms up the most optimal way? I don't think that's what you meant to say.

You seem to be picturing a "squaring off" situation where you're confronted No: this is the scenario (frontal confrontation) that I am being told makes the shoulder holster a negative, so I am adressing it. You tell me that THAT's the position where a shoulder holster will get me killed, and the criticize me for addressing it?No, I'm not criticizing you for addressing it. You didn't catch my point. I'm saying that your scenario seems to start out with identifying a threat and facing him, then moving to a bladed position to cover and retain your gun. I'm saying that you may not have the benefit of those critical first few steps of recognition and blading/covering -- and then you're at a retention disadvantage, and a HUGE draw disadvantage.

Actually, I'm assuming that nothing will go as you planned.Then all training is useless. Fine.Oh no! Not getting off that easy. You know better than to use the false dichotomy. No engagement will go exactly as planned. You train for what to do when the unforeseen happens. That's the whole point of training! Preparing yourself to use something that only works well if things go exactly as you hope is a failure before you start.

you're going to have a harder time getting that gun in play from shoulder or cross-draw than if it was in a belt holster.You explain why.Simple enough. To draw a weapon from the opposite side of your body, you'll have to get your hand up (or down) to the level of the gun and then across your body to grip it. If you're grappling or pinned, that option is gone as your opponent's body (or pinning structure/ground) is in the way. Instantly, your best bet is off the table. Next chance is that you can draw with the weak hand, which you have described, but which is a convoluted maneuver which sounds easily fouled. (I admit, I don't fully understand it yet, though.)

(ETA: I don't know. Do you think you could do your weak-hand draw from a shoulder holster if someone was pinning your arms or had you on the ground? Could you do it quickly? Could he recognize the motion and stop you easily?)

With the strong-side holster, even if your strong arm is pinned against a structure, the ground, or in a bear hug, you have a pretty short and simple motion (which is hard to obstruct -- just an exaggerated "shrug" really) to draw that weapon, and then you can fire it into your opponent's gut/groin/leg, etc, from right at holster level, whether he's in front or behind.

If you're pinned against a wall while wearing a strong side waist holster, there are some pretty simple (and hard to block) moves you can makeI see: we should assume there are no moves a shoulder-holster wearer can make when "pinned"; but there are moves that a hip holster wearer can make when "pinned." Seems odd.
It isn't odd. It is very straightforward. If you try some force-on-force ground-fighting type training these things come out pretty clearly.

But we need to get it drawn (or drawn and turned around) to engage the attacker.And same from a hip holster. When drawn, the barrel is pointed down, the gun must be turned.Not nearly the same way. All the gun has to do is rotate a few degrees up or down -- even BACK -- to cover some portion of the bad guy and fire a "GET OFF ME" shot -- or six.

If your arm is pinned across your body with your hand on the gun, even if you get it out of the holster, it isn't pointing anywhere useful, and you'll have to fight clear of the bad guy to get it covering any part of him.

There's a video (or two) that show these techniques really clearly, but my slow-butt connection here won't let me view them, so I'll have to wait to post them.

Oh boy...round and round we go.Sam--
I responded to your questions because I took you to be a fair, open listener. Yet here, you quote me from two posts ago. Again, I don't follow. Does something you said two posts ago no longer matter? I don't mean to insult you, but I do want to get us off the "I'm not going to listen to YOU, you listen to ME" merry-go-round.

Yet you criticize me, not him. So congratulations: now, you've had the last swipe at me.I'm not criticizing YOU. I'm calling attention to comments I don't agree with or understand. This is not an exercise in character assassination. I'm not trying to put you down or make you feel bad. I'm trying to understand your point of view, and then point out what I see to be some major flaws in the theory behind it. That should NOT be misconstrued as a personality conflict, or that I don't "like" you. I like you just fine. I'm not "swiping" at you. I'm ok, you're ok.

An objective observer might say your bias is showing.Don't play the wounded victim. I am NOT an unbiased observer of this debate and don't claim to be. I disagree with some of the things you've posted and have made no pretenses of standing in the middle ground. I think shoulder holsters present problems that most users have never considered, and that some who have considered those problems don't fully understand them. I feel that more strongly now than when we started.

Shoulder rigs work for those whom have had hip replacement surgeries, and similar, along with those with chronic pain varying from arthritis to whatever in hip, lower back regions.

Besides motorcyclists, and others previously mentioned, those confined to wheelchairs and/or using Powered Carts find these a useful option for conceal carry as well.

Just another "tool in the toolbox" and one I have used, and have no qualms about using again, if my "environment" best dictated a shoulder rig, or if I again had an injury where shoulder carry was best.

I have recommended these to ladies in Professional dress, with a jacket/blazer and skirt/dress, Janitorial/Cleaning folks, especially those working in the wee hours. and especially the ones running the floor waxing vehicles, expected moms...etc.

One never knows when they will have circumstances come up, so keeping an open mind and having options is a good thing.

Steve

I'm going to check out the Rosens.

I tried several different makers of shoulder rigs and found that over time I was not completely satisified with some combination of fit, comfort, concealment or retention.

As a last ditch effort, I ponied up the $'s for a Mitch Rosen shoulder rig. It's now my "go to" concealment holster for cold weather carry. I've found that I can even wear it under a sleeveless fleece vest without revealing the straps.

No one would consider Mitch's leather inexpensive by a long shot. (Don't even ask about his shoulder rig in African elephant leather unless you're heir to an oil fortune :what:) With prior purchases now collecting dust in a storage drawer, buy once and cry once would have saved me money and time.

I am surprised no one has mentioned the Alessi Bodyguard rig. Either few have tested or used it, or the ones that have have not noticed this thread. It is probably the BEST and fastest shoulder rig available, and has been used by many professionals for years. For some weapons, it utilizes a thumb break, but for most, it is able to be used with a snap IN THE TRIGGER GUARD, and this permits a "grab and pull" through the snap, for a no fumbling, fast draw. Very high quality materials, worksmanship, and design, and it has been tested and in service for maybe 25 years. Alessi & staff have been making them in a small shop, one at a time, and have always been backordered over the years, so that is why they are not mainstream, like Bianchi, Galco, etc. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC06273.jpg

Sam--

You don't shoulder carry. I do. You don't practice draws with one. I do. You don't have any weapons retention training or practice time in on a shoulder rig. I do.

Hey, I'm a hunter. I've studied elephant hunting, but I've never done it. If some guy tells me how he hunts--actually hunts--elephant, I listen. I don't tell him he's hunting them wrong. If I was ignorant of and had never tried obstructed draws from a hip holster, and you said "there are simple moves..." and I couldn't picture them, I wouldn't tell you that such moves don't exist, or require too much movement to work.

Again, my mistake. As I said regarding my old instructor, if I have someone who's interested in trying something that he hasn't tried before, great. If I have someone who's going to decide from his armchair, without ever picking up a shoulder rig to try out what I do (or try weapon retention with the shoulder rig at all), that it can't work, fine.

I haven't been playing at "wounded victim," but your call on that is up to you. My call is whether to continue to answer in words the criticisms of someone who won't try what I've suggested (including finding an instructor who knows far more than I do about shoulder holsters); when the answer won't be in my words; it'll be in trying it.I am surprised no one has mentioned the Alessi Bodyguard rig.I confess ignorance. I would have a priori concerns about placing my finger in the trigger area while drawing, from both a ND and muscle-memory perspective. Perhaps your experience can help me there?

Quite a heated debate here.

I haven't ever used one, but I see their point, especially when you have to drive/be seated for an extended period of time. I have none, but I plan on getting one in the future for my future G19.

I agree that they expose the weapon more to a would-be grabber than an IWB/OWB holster, BUT... Whoever tries to reach my shoulder holstered pistol gets in close range. That means elbow, fists, knees (to groin) and forehead range. It's quite likely that I'll be shooting with those prior to reaching for my handgun. Besides, try to reach inside my jacket, and you're giving me a wrist and an elbow to grab on, twist, and break. It's not that easy to grab a pistol away from someone who is resolved to fight and keep it.

If there's more than one attacker, even them being unarmed, that means lethal force over here and I'd be drawing. You won't get close enough to grab my gun because I'll shoot you.

Of course there's always the chance that I get the first hit, or get hit by surprise, but then, it makes little difference where the gun is carried, it can be taken from you anyway.

You don't shoulder carry. I do. You don't practice draws with one. I do. You don't have any weapons retention training or practice time in on a shoulder rig. I do.But that doesn't mean you have successfully answered the questions presented, or that the objections I raised (the REASONS I don't use shoulder holsters) are not valid.

They are.

Hey, I'm a hunter. I've studied elephant hunting, but I've never done it. If some guy tells me how he hunts--actually hunts--elephant, I listen. I don't tell him he's hunting them wrong.But if you asked questions and pointed out problem and all he would say is, "Well, you don't know elephant hunting and I do, so your concerns aren't valid -- though I won't respond to them or explain why," you'd probably begin to doubt if he really had any good answers to the objections or concerns that you do know and understand.

I HAVE used shoulder holsters and I have spent a lot of time drawing and presenting weapons. I understand the mechanics. Your body doesn't work differently because you're wearing a shoulder rig. You don't grow a third arm, or become double-jointed when you strap one on. The problems I've pointed out are real.

If I was ignorant of and had never tried obstructed draws from a hip holster, and you said "there are simple moves..." and I couldn't picture them, I wouldn't tell you that such moves don't exist, or require too much movement to work.So you would not. I admit, I am ignorant of ways to eliminate the problems I've elucidated. If you know of techniques that remove these very clear detriments please, PLEASE explain them. I hate having to ask so many times.

Again, my mistake. As I said regarding my old instructor, if I have someone who's interested in trying something that he hasn't tried before, great. If I have someone who's going to decide from his armchair, without ever picking up a shoulder rig to try out what I do (or try weapon retention with the shoulder rig at all), that it can't work, fine.Please. PLEASE. If you've got something to share, SHARE IT. Stop suggesting and insinuating that you have special skills that seem to defy the dynamics of the human body when making a particular motion.

My call is whether to continue to answer in words the criticisms of someone who won't try what I've suggested (including finding an instructor who knows far more than I do about shoulder holsters); when the answer won't be in my words; it'll be in trying it.Trying BLOODY WHAT?

HOW do you draw a gun from a shoulder holster if someone is grappling with you or has you pinned? HOW do you make your arms work to do so? There MUST be a way. Whether that way is easy, reasonably difficult, or even impossible under real-world conditions will be left to us all to figure out, I'm sure, but please just describe how you would do it. You are grabbed (knocked down, pushed against the wall, whatever) and there is someone or something against your front so your strong hand cannot cross your front. A violent attacker is attempting to obstruct your ability to put your gun into action. WHAT do you do?

"Answer[ing] in words" will be fine for now.

Loosedhorse, you don't have to put your finger in the triggerguard; just grasp the butt, and PULL. The front of the triggerguard pulls through the snap, with no contact on the trigger. Also, the reholstering does not contact the trigger, as the snap sections are not long enough to engage the trigger as the front of the triggerguard is re-positioned under the snap.

Howdy all. I'm currently looking for a shoulder rig for a Colt Agent. I have a gig coming up which involves extended driving and have decided the shoulder holster would be the best choice for me in those circumstances.
My normal carry is a 5" 1911 in a Milt Sparks Versa Max II. Not easy to get to while seated in a vehicle with a seat belt strapped on.
The Agent is my only other option at this point. The 5" 1911 is just too big to shoulder carry, for me.
The type of shoulder carry rigs I'm looking at right now are the Ken Null straight drop SMZ type (Barrel points up into the armpit) or one of the quality horizontal rigs. Seems to me it would be somewhat difficult to acquire the grip with the straight drop style, but having no experience with this type rig I'm not ruling it out.
If any of you folks have experience with both the straight drop and horizontal type rigs I'd sure appreciate your feedback.
TIA, Ray

Howdy all. I'm currently looking for a shoulder rig for a Colt Agent. I have a gig coming up which involves extended driving and have decided the shoulder holster would be the best choice for me in those circumstances. .......

:eek: Hey! How did you get in here? I was right in the middle of reading a great internet gun forum brouhaha when, all of a sudden, you step in to ask a civil question!

Over the years I've struggled with this dilemma. Some of my final (working) answers? First, I primarily carry on my belt; sometimes, especially, when I'm sitting a lot, I use a secondary carry on my leg. Second, I never seat buckle my shirt or jacket flap over my holstered weapon. I always fasten the seat belt directly against my torso and UNDERNEATH my jacket or coat - Which, once I'm inside the vehicle, I leave open at the front.

Third, I'm ambidextrous; so it might seem like it doesn't really matter; however, as long as the driver's seat and steering wheel are on the left side of the vehicle, and I'm driving, my pistol is always primarily available to my right-hand.

What is the most useful form of pistol carry while driving? My experiences have taught me that it is from a crossdraw with the right-hand. Secondarily I have found ankle carry on my left leg to be useful, too. Driving a vehicle in the United States demands that you use your right-hand well.

As for using a shoulder holster? Nope! Only if you're riding a bicycle or motorcycle. Otherwise you're going to be too slow, and too encumbered. (But, hey, I don't want to interfere with anyone's fun!) ;)



One other thing: I never rely upon small pistols for serious work. Do I carry a secondary? Sure! However, if I've got to use a pistol, then it's going to be the biggest, baddest, 'mother-loving' handgun I can get my mit around!

My usual EDC? Most of the time it's a Glock Model 21 with two magazines and 30 rounds! Sometimes, like when I'm feeling reckless, it's a Glock Model 19 with three magazines and 50 rounds!

I got used to a shoulder holster in the military and have preferred one since. I use one from www.deepconceal.com over a t-shirt and under my main shirt for my Glock 19 and 2 spare mags. It suits my needs well.

Note to self, never ask for someone to "Convince me.", instead ask "What works for you and why?"