[The Real Hawkeye]

They were good enough for Wild Bill, so why not today? Obviosly we have much better handguns for that purpose today, but to hear some talk, the idea of using a cap and ball revolver in that application today is ridiculous. I don't think so. If that's what you have, it would work pretty darn well, I think, so long as you are really familiar with it and practice regularly. Any thoughts?

[Josey]

I guess a Cabelos 1860 Army snubbie could work. Hammer down on an empty chamber reduces you to 5 shots. Reloads would be impossible. I wouldn't suggest it. It is possible but, is it good sense?

[The Real Hawkeye]

Josey, it would make sense if that was all you had. Think about it like this: lots of folks go around carrying a Smith & Wesson Chief's Special, which contains five rounds of .38 Special, and most don't carry a speed loader, depending on the five rounds to stop the fight. Secondly, 98% of the time just the appearance of a handgun will stop a crime.

I own a file drawer full of all kinds of more appropriate modern handguns, so this is just speculation for the fun of it. But lots of people live places that allow black powder handguns without a permit, while requiring a permit for a conventional handgun. Those folks, if they don't have a permit, might well make good use of a Model 1860 Colt replica as a nightstand gun.

Wild Bill's daily practice consisted of setting up a bunch of cans every late afternoon in his backyard and emptying his two colts into them. Then he'd clean them and load them fresh for the next 24 hours. This 1) made sure that the loads were ready when needed, and 2) provided regular daily practice.

[Zeke Menuar]

For about two years I used my '58 Remington copy as a trail/self defense pistol. At the time I had no centerfire pistols. I carried it in the woods while hiking. It paid off while I was hiking in the Steens Mountains. A rattlesnake objected to where I was taking a whizz and promptly lost the arguement. I am not sure I would carry it concealed in town, but the Remington sure proved its value in the field. I drag it out from time to time as a trail gun just to be different.

ZM

[4v50 Gary]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47&highlight=protection

[The Real Hawkeye]

Thanks, Gary. That was a great read.

[dfariswheel]

About 20 years ago there was a VERY high end firearms restorer/gunsmith in New Orleans who carried an original Manton single shot percussion "Gentleman's Cloak Pocket Pistol" as protection.

From all accounts, this was one man you DID NOT want to try to mug.

As for using a percussion gun today? With the availability of modern guns, and the higher unreliability of percussion guns, why risk your life?

In the 1800's West, there were plenty of gunfighters whose reputation was enhanced by their opponents pistol mis-firing.

Percussion guns are like the Single Action Army: Still effective and usable, but "over taken by events".

[Josey]

It might not be good in the south either. Humidity, rain and sweat might cause a fizzle instead of a BOOM! I believe you would still need a legal CCW to pack one or live in an open carry state. If you were on a hike and waded water it would probably not work either.

[Iggy]

That ball of flame from the muzzle and the sides of the cylyinder would be one hell of a deterrent in the dark even if you missed.

Then you would have the advantage in running blind in a house you are familiar with and the BG would be running blind in a strange place.. You should be out of the house sooner than he is and you could ambush him when he finds is way out.. You will know when he is coming by all the coughing he is doing..
:D

Seriously though.. A round lead ball can do some nasty damage if applied correctly.

[gvass]

"With the availability of modern guns, and the higher unreliability of percussion guns, why risk your life?
"

Well.
Most parts of the world modern firearms (especially handguns) are NOT avail. for average citizen.
Or the hassle with necessary licences are too difficult, or too expensive.

But in quite a few European states, the blackpowder guns - mostly the single shots - do not require licence.
So it is the only (legal) way to go.

[The Real Hawkeye]

Gvass makes a good point. We Americans don't like to think about it, but it is true that there are places in the world (and even within our own borders) that have very restrictive laws regarding firearms ownership, some of which do not include black powder guns in their restrictions. If only single shot front loading BP pistols are allowed, I can imagine someone buying three or four to keep loaded by their bed stand. The gaping muzzle of a 50 caliber muzzle loading pistol can, I imagine, be very intimidating to an intruder, especially if there are two more stuffed in the home owner's belt.

[gvass]

hi,
", but it is true that there are places in the world (and even within our own borders) that have very restrictive laws regarding firearms ownership, "

But that is also true, that carrying such vintage piece is restricted however.
So, the home defence is the most likely use of such guns.

Practically no difference between a double barreled 12ga shotgun or the same in ML-config.

(And you can also cut back the BP one to 12" without manufacturing an illegal SBR:-)))

[The Real Hawkeye]

That's another point I hadn't thought of. A black powder double barreled shotgun could be cut down to 12 inches. That would make a really handy piece for home defense. You could have two of them loaded and at the ready (four shots). I wonder if (the once) Great Britian allows such guns in the home? I guess even if they did, any homeowner who defended his life with one would be immediately carted off to prison, while his "victim," if he lived, would receive extra government benefits till he was back on his feet and ready to once again begin the practice of his trade. :banghead:

[gvass]

hi,
As far as I know, any means of selfdefence is almost illegal in GB.

In my country you can buy any BP-gun (even revolvers) without any restrictions (no age limit!). BUT, you are not allowed to own black powder and caps.

Theoretically.

Because if you do so (get some from the next country), it is only punishable with some money fee.

No one cares.

The gun laws are stupid.

[roscoe]

I have often wondered about the effectiveness of those NAA black powder derringer revolvers. Some have suggested that they are for those who have lost 'lost' their right to have cartridge firearms.

[gunsmith]

that any gun is better then no gun.

here in CA you can get one in the mail or a gun shop with no paperwork.

I guess if you want to judge there effectivness you can go hunting with them

[gvass]

"I have often wondered about the effectiveness of those NAA black powder derringer revolvers. "

The trick is, that you should not use them with black powder. Use smokeless powder instead.
(WARNING: NEVER attempt this with any othe cap'n'ball revolver!!!)

If you drop the charge of a normal .22 LR ammo in the chamber, the power will be about the same as the cartridge minirevolvers.

[gvass]

"I guess if you want to judge there effectivness you can go hunting with them"

With full charge and 230 gr LRN bullet, a 8" .44 Colt M1860 or a Remi M1858 is only 10% less powerful than a modern .45 ACP pistol. (According to test of german Visier magazine.)

Not negligible stopping power...

[TerryBob]

Back around 1982, I was stuck in traffic on Derby Eve (Kentucky Derby). I was on in the right lane and a red 4 door ford with Michigan tags was in the left lane. Four guys in the Ford started yelling sweet things at my date and bad things at me. They were pretty trashed. The traffic was such that they would move up three or four cars and then I would move up three or four cars and their taunts increased at every pass. I just kept my eyes forward and never ever said a word to them in return. Then, they passed me and had to stop about a car length ahead of me and three of them started to get out but my lane started to move again so they got back in and started shouting "NEXT TIME BUDDY, NEXT TIME!". Well the next time they passed me, I showed them my 1858 remington in stainless. That 7.5 inch barrell must have made quite the impression because now thier eyes stayed forward, never looking at me and they got pretty quiet. Shhesh, if I had pointed it at them, they would have pooped their pants. :neener:

TerryBob

[The Real Hawkeye]

TerryBob, that's a great story. Similar things have happened to me twice while armed. Actually, one time I had a short barreled John Wane style Winchester 92 in the passenger seat (actually, on the floor), as I had just picked it up from the gunsmith (It would have only taken a couple of seconds to stick a couple of rounds in it). In my situation, I was alone, however, and a pack of "youths" were doing the same exact thing, swerving into me and laughing, hanging their torsoes out windows and taunting me, cutting me off, etc. Have no idea what they think I did to them, or maybe they were just doing it for the laughs, but I thought seriously about holding the 92 up so they could see it. Before I got to that, they broke off, however. It's hard to discretely let someone know you have a carbine in the car without all the other cars seeing you do it.

Similar thing happened when I was carrying a puny N.A.A. Guardian pocket gun in .32 ACP, but I was a passenger in this car. Bunch of "youths" doing the same thing, but this time they seemed totally insane with rage. They must have been high, because they nearly sideswiped us, and then acting like we nearly sideswiped them, they were out to get us, faces red with anger and screaming all kinds of trash. Swerving to try to force us off the road. I drew my pea shooter and was ready in case it was needed, but just then we came up to a police station, and pulled in. They kept going.

[Dr.Rob]

You guys realize that Colts have stop pins between the cylinders to rest the hammer on? NO REASON to leave it on an empty chamber.

Whether you pick a .36 Navy, or a .44 Army, both were "proven" manstoppers. The .36 uses the same powder charge, more of less and has a distinctive high velocity "crack" compared to the "boom" of the 44. Think 9mm vs. 45 debates of today.

Expect yourself to be blinded by your own smoke, and at close range you can set your target on fire.

The baddest BP pistol is the Colt Walker. Why? because an 1860 Army holds a 20 gr charge, the Walker held something like 50 grains of powder! the later Dragoons didn't hold as much powder as the Walker, but still hold a bunch. Don't expect to conceal a Walker unless you are wearing an oversized parker or duster.

You will also want to consider getting a holster with a flap on it to keep rain, dirt and crud off your pistol.

[TerryBob]

Actually, it's the Remington that has a place between the cylinders for the hammer to rest. A remington .44 and the Colt 1860 holds 40 gr. of powder. The Walker will hold about 70 grs. and was the most powerful handgun that there was untill the .44 mag came out (or so I have read). The Walker was intended to be a saddle gun which would be suspended from the saddle. The guns weighed about 5 lbs or better.

Take care all,

TerryBob

[gvass]

"You guys realize that Colts have stop pins between the cylinders to rest the hammer on? NO REASON to leave it on an empty chamber."

Maybe there is some reason: on the less expensive Italian replicas NO such little rest pins. And if so, these are so easily broken out.

"Whether you pick a .36 Navy, or a .44 Army, both were "proven" manstoppers. The .36 uses the same powder charge, more of less and has a distinctive high velocity "crack" compared to the "boom" of the 44. Think 9mm vs. 45 debates of today."

The .36 (from a Colt Navy 7,5") is about a modern .38 spec, not up to 9 mm Luger.

"The Walker will hold about 70 grs. and was the most powerful handgun that there was untill the .44 mag came out (or so I have read)"

The Walker was the most powerful serial made revolver until 1935, the introduction of the SW .357 Magnum.

(in those days the .357 Magnum was more powerful than todays defense loads.)

[ReadyontheRight]

Cap and Ball Revolvers for Self Defense

Sounds like the ultimate Feinstein/Schumer/Brady/VPC "loophole".

Diane Feinstein's retirement speech:

"It took 40 years of slow, hard fighting, but we've finally removed all assault weapons from private ownership worldwide -- everything from .22 bolt action sniper rifles to Remington 7400 high powered machine guns.

Now the gun-crazy culture has discovered the 'blackpowder loophole'. We must remove these eeeeevil, barbaric tools from the hands of private US subjects...ahem...I mean citizens.

It's for the children."

[gvass]

"Sounds like the ultimate Feinstein/Schumer/Brady/VPC "loophole"."

Sorry, it is not a joke at all.

One or two years ago the British government actively lobbied at French government to ban the free sale of cap'n'ball revolvers in France.

The reason was, that "a lot of them are smuggled" to (once)Great Britain, the Land of The Banned Handguns and Selfdefence.

[ReadyontheRight]

gvass -- great point that it's not a joke.

I bet if you told any American back in 1960 that the mere act of a private citizen selling their gun to another private citizen would be called a "loophole" in a gun law, and that politicians were using this as part of their poilitical campaign, they would have thought you were joking.

[4v50 Gary]

Watch the French and their cap 'n balls. A couple of years ago a French American Civil War (or more properly the War of the Rebellion as it was known in North in those days) reenactors borrowed a gun and shot it at the other side (the Yanks). He plugged a Yankee reenactor in the neck. :eek:

Writer/historian Joe Bilby cautions that reenactors and shooters should have two guns. One to reenact with and the other to shoot. Neither should ever be used for both as there could be accidents. Sound advice from that (respectable) old fart.

[Battlespace]

A couple of years ago a member, in fact I believe he was the ex-president, of the Kentucky Blackpowder Shooting Assoc was joggin gin the early morning hours of a park in Lexington. A car pulled up and a BG jumped out to attempt an early morning mugging. The wrong guy to pick on at that time of day, although he was only armed with a .25 auto. Shot the BG in the gut. Too bad he was not carrying a .44 at the time. The BG lived with a very sore gut.

[LynnKCircle]

There's only one reason I wouldn't use my Ruger Old Army as a house gun for self-defense -- the trigger.

Not that the trigger is bad -- it is excellent. In fact the trigger is so good that I am more accurate with the Ruger Old Army at 25 yards than with any other handgun I own.

Stopping power on the .457 ball is pretty good, too. A few years ago one of the gun magazines did an estimate of ball stopping power and figured the Colt SA Army .45 probably had as good stopping power as a modern .357 because that slow-moving big ball dumps all of its energy on target.

But think of this: gun accidents -- REAL accidents, not the kind had by parents getting high who let their kids play with their guns -- are at the lowest in history. Part of the reason is the DA trigger.

That Ruger has such a good trigger that if I had a hard sneeze holding it cocked, I'm pretty sure it would go off. If facing a bad guy, it wouldn't take too much tension and stress to pull the trigger without meaning to. And if the "bad guy" turned out to be my teenager sneaking in after staying out too late .... well, you get the picture.

[Dr.Rob]

My Signature series 1851 Colt DOES have the little stop pins, as does my Pietta 1860 Army 'Outlaw.'

Those stop pins make a big difference in feeling safe carrying them loaded.

My point was the 36/44 debate is about as pointless as the 9mm/45 debate, not comparing them directly in power.

And by my measure... a Factory Colt Flask throws the nearly the same charge for a Navy and an Army.. and it's not 40 grains. I think its like.. 22 for the Navy and 24-25 for the Army.

But you are making me want to test this theory on my powder scale.

I forget what the .36 conical bullets weigh, (I want to say 90-100gr) but my 44 uses 180gr Buffalo Conicals or roundball.

[TerryBob]

And by my measure... a Factory Colt Flask throws the nearly the same charge for a Navy and an Army.. and it's not 40 grains. I think its like.. 22 for the Navy and 24-25 for the Army

The spouts for you flask screws in and out and is interchangeable. 25 years ago, my Colt flask held about 45 grs. The 1858 Remington and 1860 Colt will hold at least 40 grs. but probably shoots best at around 30 grs. I have a lot of personal experience on this as well as I have read this in a number of sources.

Use your adjustable measure to find out what your gun likes. Then spend a couple of bucks for a spout that holds that amount.

Take care,

TerryBob

[gvass]

"But think of this: gun accidents -- REAL accidents, not the kind had by parents getting high who let their kids play with their guns -- are at the lowest in history. Part of the reason is the DA trigger."

Pietta manufactures a nicely made copy of the Starr DA (Double Action) .44 revolver. Although it is not as elegant as a Colt M1860, but very practical for such high-stress defensive situation.

[foghornl]

I carried an Army Remington repro many years back when working the overnight shift...getting off duty @ 3:00 AM will make you want to do that.

Left work one shift, only to go outside and see guy working under the hood of my car, attempting to [ahem] 'borrow' my battery. Reader's Digest version...he attempted to bring knife to gunfight. The muzzle flame from a full-house BP revolver is quite impressive. And I added a nice knife to my kitchen cutlery selections. (No, I didn't shoot the miscreant, but merely helped him increase the pace of his retreat)

As I recall, Blackpower/Pyrodex/Triple Seven are measured by VOLUME, not weight. I have a couple of the adjustable BP measures, and one that is a marked glass laboratory 'test tube' type of measure. If I can find the text file I have around here somewhere, I have the cautions from Hodgdon's website about measuring Pyrodex, etc. (7-7-7 requires 15% LESS that Pyrodex for the same muzzle velocity)

[chaim]

Actually, it's the Remington that has a place between the cylinders for the hammer to rest. A remington .44 and the Colt 1860 holds 40 gr. of powder. The Walker will hold about 70 grs. and was the most powerful handgun that there was untill the .44 mag came out (or so I have read).
40GR?!:what: Bad idea. The max charge for these guns is 25gr as had already been said. The guy you were "correcting" wasn't saying how much the chamber can hold, just the maximum safe charge. I have 2 .44cal blackpowder pistols, both from different companies, and both give 25gr as the max charge. OK, fine, maybe one can go a little higher and it might be artificially low due to today's lawyer culture, but I highly doubt that they are playing it 15 grains safe.

Please be more careful about your suggestions, people may actually give it a try.

As for the Walker being the most powerful until the .44mag, nope, it was the most powerful handgun until the .357mag came out just as gvass said.

[gvass]

"The max charge for these guns is 25gr as had already been said."

The max charge of the modern replica BP-revolvers is ALL, what you can pour under the ball. Nothing less.

These guns are impossible to explode when loaded with blackpowder (or correct substituent).

[TerryBob]

an 1860 Army holds a 20 gr charge, the Walker held something like 50 grains of powder! holds

The guy you were "correcting" wasn't saying how much the chamber can hold, just the maximum safe charge.

With all due respect, look again. The person clearly used the words HOLDS. He was not talking about MAX CHARGE. I understand the differance.

On the other hand, I agree with gvass. My Remington knock off has been shooting 30grs fff goex for 26 years with no problem. I have read in many sources that the standard charge use in the Cival War was 30 grs and the metal wasn't nearly as good back then. I know people who consistantly shoot 40 grs. with no problem. I always recommend 30 grs. for steel frames and 25 grs. for brass frames.

[LynnKCircle]

I cannot speak about replicas, but I do know the Ruger Old Army can safely be loaded with a max of 40 grains. However, Ruger recommends beginning with 20 and working your way up to find the best accuracy. My flask throws 30 grains and it turns out I get great accuracy with that, so I'm staying with it.

[TerryBob]

My flask throws 30 grains and it turns out I get great accuracy with that, so I'm staying with it.

When I first got my Remington, I compared loads anywhere from 20gr. to 40gr. I found that 30 worked best. Anything over that seemed to throw off the accuracy pretty bad. The powder is still burning after the ball leaves the barrel and we all know what that does for accuracy.

I have an 1862 Navy in .44 (not historical, I know) with a brass frame that was a gift that I am going to shoot for the first time in the near future. I am hoping that it will shoot well with no more than 25gr because the brass frame will stretch out quickly with anything more.

Take care all,

TerryBob

[chaim]

With all due respect, look again. The person clearly used the words HOLDS. He was not talking about MAX CHARGE. I understand the differance. Fair enough, you weren't talking about max safe charge but capacity. However, I'd still put that out with big time disclaimers. Someone might take you up on it and try it.

I'll be the first to admit that the 25gr charge that you see listed as max charge for all of the Remington and Colt clones is probably a "lawyer charge" and the true safe maximum might be as much as 10-20% greater. Still, I'd be careful about suggesting people do that- it should be limited to experienced (and responsible) people who have some idea what to expect.

[The Real Hawkeye]

I've read an expert source who said that modern repro cap and ball guns cannot be overcharged with black powder to the point of damaging them or exploding. I've been assuming this was the case for many years now. Anyone ever hear of one exploding with a black powder charge?

[Dr.Rob]

I've never loaded pyrodex in my pistols I use fffg only.

Pictured are a .36 Colt Signature Series Navy w/original Colt Flask , a Euroarms 44 cal Rogers & Spencer w/ repro flask, and a Calbelas 1860 Army "outlaw" by Pietta w/ repro 44 cal Colt Flask.

You can see clearly that the 44 cal tubes are longer.

[Dr.Rob]

Doh!

[Larry Ashcraft]

I have used 40 grains of fffg in my Ruger Old Army. Chronographs at 1000 fps, but I'm still trying to get lead out of the barrel.

[TerryBob]

Dr.Rob,

How do you like that Rogers and Spencer? I must get one because my last name is Rogers and my mother's maiden name is Spencer. It's an omen...I must buy it.

TerryBob

[Dr.Rob]

Terry, that one belongs to my dad, he bought it the same day I bought the 1860 Outlaw.

The pistol is robust, it weighs a lot. The plow-handle grip takes some getting used to, but its comfortable. The BIG bead front sight is handy, and it points well. the cylinder has some machining marks i dodn't care for but it's a really neat piece of curiousa. I'd recommend one in a heartbeat, that are wicked fun, just not as 'elegant' as a Colt.

[scotjute]

As for longevity of your charge, I've had pistol loaded for up to 3 weeks and all went off ok. I have carried Uberti '61 Navy in a flap holster for 2 days of walking in woods in constant drizzle in Louisiana. All the charges fired off first time. Used # 10 caps, wonder wads, and grease over the balls.

This Uberti also has the pins in between cylinders so you can load for 6 shots. Don't think that's authentic, but I like it.
Don't normally consider it for self-protection, but sometimes its all I have available. It is accurate and fairly reliable.

Many of the men who used cap and ball revolvers years ago often carried two or more because of the hassle of reloading. The .36 caliber pocket revolvers (5-shot) are fairly small and might make a good choice for a back-up if someone is using cap'n ball for protection.

[Stickjockey]

Actually, it's the Remington that has a place between the cylinders for the hammer to rest.

Actually, they both do. Colts have the little (and I do mean little)pins, and Remingtons have slots cut between the nipple holes that fit the nose of the hammer.

[The Real Hawkeye]

You have to wonder why Colt didn't put those notches on their Single Action Army .45s. Would have made them all six shooters instead of five shooters. How hard would it be to put them on a Single Action Army revolver?

[MrAcheson]

You have to wonder why Colt didn't put those notches on their Single Action Army .45s. Would have made them all six shooters instead of five shooters. How hard would it be to put them on a Single Action Army revolver?

Technically you can rest the firing pin in between the cartridge rims on a SAA. But it doesn't work very well, much like the notches on C&B guns.

[4v50 Gary]

Fess up! Who here did this?Self defense with black powder revolver news clipping (http://www.news-leader.com/today/0325-Manshotaft-47487.html)

[TerryBob]

Now that is WAY KOOL :p

I hope that we dont find out later that the guy was using pyrodex or the like :barf:

GOEX RULES:what:

TerryBob

[Tom Bri]

Not so funny story. I was shooting th s**t with a well known SciFi author in a Florida coffee shop. He told the story of being shot off his bike by some guy in a passing van. Black powder pistol, right through the buns. He now jumps every time he hears a loud noise.

[Joe Demko]

I carried a BP Remington .44 replica for a time before I became old enough to purchase cartridge-bearing pistols. For a brief period, I even had a second one in stainless, though I never carried both at the same time. I purchased a more modern piece at the first opportunity, but I never felt too sorry for myself with the Remington in hand.

[armoredman]

Cheap, too.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/common/search/search-results.jhtml;jsessionid=HRLAQQ0I2RPAGCWQNVDCCPQK0BWUOIWE?hasJS=true&SearchTypeOrArea=0&QueryText=revolvers&%2Fcabelas%2Fcommerce%2FCabelasCatalogNumberFinder.giftCertificateURL=..%2F..%2Ftemplates%2Fgiftcertificate%2Fgiftcertificate.jhtml%3Fid%3D0005586990011a%26podId%3D0005586%26catalogCode%3DIB%26navAction%3Djump%26indexId%3D&_D%3A%2Fcabelas%2Fcommerce%2FCabelasCatalogNumberFinder.giftCertificateURL=+&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fcatalog%2Fleft-nav.jhtml

I would not feel too bad with an 1958, or even an 1851 .44 in my belt!