Drop in 2 lb, 1911 trigger


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Greg528iT
January 22, 2012, 02:40 AM
AND YES.. it's on my range only toy.

Start with my Springfield upgraded Mil Spec - 1911 (added beaver tail grip safety and red dot sight)

I had previously attempted to adjust the trigger pull on this gun, and succeeded. Though as I learned more and more about all the geometry I was liking the idea of starting fresh.

1st. start with a new sear. reading across the web, the EGW hardened sear is suppose to be as close to perfect out of the box that as they come
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/jaggoett1/1911/EGW.jpg
I did rub the sides and trigger bow contact area with 3000 grit polishing tape. You know basic stuff you are going to do. They say the primary sear surface is ready to go. I did take 1 pass with the tape. While the sear was out, I passed the disconnector surfaces across the tape as well.

2nd. Add a new hammer. I went with a Wilson Bullet proof hammer.
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/jaggoett1/1911/Wilsonhammer.jpg
Per a few here, they say they leave the hooks at .023". The Wilson hammer comes with .020" hooks. Hmmmm. With the 3000 tape on a lathe tool (exactly 90 deg edge) I took 2-3 passes on the hook face, just because.

THIS by itself gave me a solid 4 lb trigger pull. Very crisp.

3rd. I believe the original Springfield main spring runs in the 23 lb arena.
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/jaggoett1/1911/hammerspring.jpg
I made a quick jig to test to see if I could tell if there was some relaxation over the last 10 years. It compressed near 23 lbs. I ordered a set of Wolf springs, 21, 19, 17 lbs. The 21 and 19 compressed to their numbers in my jig. I guess my jig works OK.. and as I figured the orignal spring was 23 lb.
I put the 19 lb spring in.
This dropped the trigger pull to 3 lbs.

4th. Now to fiddle with the sear spring. OR not mess with it. OR. drop in the Cylinder and Slide sear spring.
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/jaggoett1/1911/cylslide.jpg
I polished the tips a bit. Just to make sure. and OK OK, I kinda pulled on the center leaf a tad, but don't think I could see much of a difference in the position of spring.
This gave me a crisp 2 lbs pull.

No follow on, I can't rattle the sear off the hooks. I'll take it shooting Monday or Tuesday. With all non modded parts I'm sure everything will be fine.
and AGAIN.. this is my range only toy.

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ichiban
January 22, 2012, 10:31 AM
Might I recommend that you only load two rounds per magazine until you have established a level of reliability and experience with such a light trigger. An unexpected full-auto 1911 is scary as hell and may get you a visit from the boys at BATFE. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

nathan
January 22, 2012, 12:45 PM
Prepare for an accidental discharge. A 3.5 lb is the best minimum .

1911Tuner
January 22, 2012, 01:14 PM
The center portion of the leaf spring is the trigger return spring and fooling with that can make a full auto gun real quick.

Um...Well...no. Not really.

The center leg of the sear spring returns the trigger and resets the disconnect...and holds the disconnect in the connected position. Too little tension will let the disconnect fall out of position when the trigger is pulled, and the usual result is a failure to fire because the sear resets and grabs the half-cock...stopping the hammer.

A hidden effect is that the half-cock can crash into the sear as the hammer falls, damaging the sear crown. Sometimes it includes light strikes and misfires. Sometimes not. The shooter blasts away happily until one day...the hammer starts to follow or the trigger gets hard because the damaged sear has eaten away at the hammer hooks.

You can take the hammer hooks down to .018" and keep the standard main spring to prevent light strikes.

Got a copy of Ken Hallock's little paperback, eh?

If I find .018 square hooks on a hammer, I'll toss it in the scrap barrel. I'm not real comfortable with .020 hooks, either. I much prefer .025 inch...a little undersquare for positive engagement...and the use of an escape angle on the backside of the sear crown to reduce the contact area and minimize hammer lift.

There is little practical difference between a 2-pound trigger and a 3.5-pound trigger other than for establishing bragging rights down at the gun shop. A Distinguished Expert may be able to consistently do a little better with 2 pounds...a little.

Might I recommend that you only load two rounds per magazine until you have established a level of reliability and experience with such a light trigger.

This is good advice, and for more than getting used to just how scary light a 2-pound trigger is.

Remember too, that the sear and hammer move in an arc, and that the angles on those parts were mated on a fixture with precisely located hammer and sear pins. If your frame's pinholes aren't exactly the same as those on the fixture...which is unlikely...all bets are off.

And thus duly warned...we wish you the best of luck and good shootin'.

FIVETWOSEVEN
January 22, 2012, 03:02 PM
Drop in 1911 parts, :uhoh:

rcmodel
January 22, 2012, 03:04 PM
1911's with 2# triggers. :uhoh:

rc

Bozwell
January 22, 2012, 03:07 PM
Prepare for an accidental discharge. A 3.5 lb is the best minimum .
A light trigger on a range toy isn't really a problem in my opinion. The gun shouldn't be loaded until you're on the firing line and you shouldn't have your finger on the trigger until you're ready to fire. Were it a carry gun that would stay loaded all the time, I'd agree, but not so much on a range gun.

Greg528iT
January 22, 2012, 03:08 PM
I only mentioned that I plucked at the center leaf. Let me be clear, I plucked it, more like a mouth harp, from it's out of the package shape to it's um final shape I can't say I moved or bent anything. More of cycling it.

It sure don't sound like a simple "DROP IN" to me!
I guess including the fact that I sanded sides and edges, makes it sound like MORE than drop in. but really I'd do the same to the stock parts I took out cleaned and replaced.

YES.. I'll start with no more than 2 rounds.

Also why while I was ordering, I ordered a range of main springs. I put the 19 lb in. The 21 may go in. Or even the 23 go back in depending on my results and desires.

mgmorden
January 22, 2012, 03:11 PM
Prepare for an accidental discharge. A 3.5 lb is the best minimum .

TONS of competition shooters run triggers down to 1.5lbs (and 2.25 to 2.5 is so common as to not even be noteworthy), and AD's are relatively rare. 2lbs isn't going to go off if you breath on it. It's still going to take an actual press of the trigger to go bang.

rcmodel
January 22, 2012, 03:11 PM
When you drop the slide on an empty chamber without holding the trigger back do you get hammer follow?

rc

1911Tuner
January 22, 2012, 03:27 PM
.018 is a minimum for a competition gun and never adequate for a service pistol. It is also dependent on the interacting parts as well.

On a competition only pistol when the work is performed by a skilled and talented trigger man. In a service-grade or even a range toy/hobby pistol...as a component in a drop-in set? Not me, lad. Nossir. When those hooks are that short and squared, the rest of the package had better be 101% right.

Greg528iT
January 22, 2012, 04:56 PM
When you drop the slide on an empty chamber without holding the trigger back do you get hammer follow?

NO! which makes me semi confident it'll be OK. but will start slow at the range. 2 bullets etc.

the rest of the package had better be 101% right.

Measuring straight between the hammer and sear pin my Springfield appears to be .024" farther apart than the blueprints. Well, I didn't expect it to be perfect. I did set the hammer and sear pinned on the outside. The hook face and sear face positions appear pretty close to the 3d model I've created.

I'd have NOT cut the hammer hooks to less than .023" but as I say they came .020".

I did not use any abrasive greater than 1500 grit. On the hammer hook face I set a 90 deg lathe tool with the 3000 grit tape on the hook side. I can pretty much assure that no real material was removed.

This was a mis match of parts. Wilson hammer, EGW sear, etc.

Greg528iT
January 22, 2012, 08:09 PM
Brazil forging stuff is all over the map for tolerance specifications

HUH??? these 2 holes would be drilled AFTER any forging casting process. These holes would be drilled during the machining process. Depending on how they set it up, I could see them gang drilling them. Pretty sure that's not the case here.

Rail Driver
January 23, 2012, 11:40 AM
Back to the OP, I "know" how to do a trigger job too. That being said, I haven't done anything with the FCG on any of my 3 1911s. I paid a fair amount of money to have William Alexander (Alexander Arms; Tallahassee, FL) put a consistent 3.4lb trigger on my Colt. With that trigger, it almost seems like I "think" the trigger instead of pressing it. 3.4lbs is very light.

Drop in parts where 1911s are concerned are almost never properly fit. The part is either going to be too small and it will fit with slop, or it'll be too big and it's not drop in anymore.

As far as the hammer hooks go, you shouldn't have cut them to begin with... You're potentially creating a dangerous situation. Your gun works now, and it'll work for awhile... but with so little metal there, you're much more likely to wear it out instead of wearing it in.

It's a good idea to stick to the schematics as closely as possible (at least in certain parts). Cosmetics are one thing, but when you start mucking with the fire control group things can get dangerous.

Greg528iT
January 23, 2012, 12:22 PM
You should enjoy this.
I did. Nice to see that Colt uses a mix of old and new tech. We can certainly see why 1911s have the price premium they do. All that hand working is expensive.

I guess it would depend on the age and or quality of the CNC machine that does all the initial hole drills. What's the positional repeatability???

Drop in parts where 1911s are concerned are almost never properly fit.
Depending how they are made they should be within the same tolerances as OEM parts. Being I bought Wilson and Cylinder and Slide I assumed (yeah I know) that they would be able to hold tolerances as well as Colt or Springfield.

As far as the hammer hooks go, you shouldn't have cut them to begin with...

I agree. and I didn't cut a thing. I did buy the Wilson hammer knowing they advertise that they have .020" hooks. I measured them, they were .020" . I'm wondering if William Alexander cuts hammer hooks to less than the blue print .030" height to get that 3.4 lbs pull??? I'd bet he does.

Rail Driver
January 23, 2012, 12:39 PM
I did. Nice to see that Colt uses a mix of old and new tech. We can certainly see why 1911s have the price premium they do. All that hand working is expensive.

I guess it would depend on the age and or quality of the CNC machine that does all the initial hole drills. What's the positional repeatability???


Depending how they are made they should be within the same tolerances as OEM parts. Being I bought Wilson and Cylinder and Slide I assumed (yeah I know) that they would be able to hold tolerances as well as Colt or Springfield.


I agree. and I didn't cut a thing. I did buy the Wilson hammer knowing they advertise that they have .020" hooks. I measured them, they were .020" . I'm wondering if William Alexander cuts hammer hooks to less than the blue print .030" height to get that 3.4 lbs pull??? I'd bet he does.
On measuring, my hammer hooks are .026, but my caliper isn't digital and my eyes aren't great for seeing tiny things. I'd say give or take .001 - It's much closer than your .020 though. I'm not saying stick to the blueprint all the time, or even exactly... I'm saying that you're more than .010 off ... that's plenty enough to cause problems, especially when you're using a "drop in" hammer. The hammer, sear and disconnector all need to be fitted to each other and to the gun. Start mucking with one part and the others are going to have problems functioning properly.

Again, maybe not right away, but it WILL wear out quicker than the next guy that has hammer hooks of the proper depth. Keep your eyes open for hammer follow and please don't use it as a carry gun. I'd really hate to read about you in the news sometime being arrested because your firearm doubled or being buried because it broke when you needed it most.

Greg528iT
January 23, 2012, 12:46 PM
.026, but my caliper isn't digital

Use shims. A nice machinist set will have shims running at single thousands intervals. You can then see or feel it easily. Wilson said it was .020" I put an .020 shim on.. then an .019 and a .021 YEP.. it was .020"

Added:
and.. I've said before.. I'd NOT have gone below .023" is I was taking a OEM hammer down from .030". I AM putting some trust in Wilson Combat to produce and SELL a product that is satisfactory.

Rail Driver
January 23, 2012, 12:54 PM
Use shims. A nice machinist set will have shims running at single thousands intervals. You can then see or feel it easily. Wilson said it was .020" I put an .020 shim on.. then an .019 and a .021 YEP.. it was .020"

Added:
and.. I've said before.. I'd NOT have gone below .023" is I was taking a OEM hammer down from .030". I AM putting some trust in Wilson Combat to produce and SELL a product that is satisfactory.
I don't have any shims (or a machinists set of tools/shims/gauges). Mostly because I don't do anything that requires them currently, though that particular set of tools IS in my future. I'm not saying the hammer hooks on your hammer aren't .020, I'm saying they're off from blueprint by .010 ... A hundredth of an inch is a lot when you're talking about a precision piece of machinery like a handgun, even one as simple as a 1911.

Either way, it is what it is. We learn by experimenting and screwing things up or fixing them as the case may be. I use a Rock Island to experiment on personally... Much cheaper for a project gun.

Greg528iT
January 23, 2012, 01:10 PM
OH.. my comment was more dirrected that Wilson said they where .020" and using a shim / feeler gauge, I proved to my satisfaction that Wilson can at least hold to a very tight tolerance there.

Rail.. have you ever measured the spacing between the sear and hammer pin holes? Easily done with your dial caliper. I measured mine last night. Doing the trig, they should be .4344" apart at the centerline. With the pins out you can measure to the far sides of the holes. .4344" + (.110"/2) + (.157"/2) I discovered mine are .024" farther apart than 1911 blue print. :( The bright side to this is, that the sear face will bury deeper into the hooks than they normally would have.

Rail Driver
January 23, 2012, 01:37 PM
Greg: The holes are correct on my Colt, but they're off on my Springfield (.022 off, pretty close to yours) and they're .013 off on my RIA.

Wilson Combat is, I'm sure, a fantastic supplier when it comes to parts dimension accuracy, and with the holes on the springer being off so much, the shorter hammer hooks won't be quite as much of a problem, though I think you may see increased sear wear instead. I'd keep an eye on it (I'm no expert, by any means, but I'm learning). Matter of fact, my Springfield has a WC grip safety (previous owner installed it) and the only thing I don't like about it is the lack of a "memory pad". I plan to build it up a bit once I find a ground clamp and a rod holder for my welder.

*Edit to add: Most of the work I do on my 1911s is pretty much cosmetic only, with the exception of polishing internals (VERY carefully) for smoother action.

One thing I haven't figured out how to do yet is polishing the inside of the frame where parts ride... Those are probably the only machine marks left on my RIA, are inside the trigger bow slots and the slot where the disconnector/sear rides.

Greg528iT
January 23, 2012, 02:02 PM
my Springfield (.022 off, pretty close to yours)
Hmmmmm I guess I'll be measuring my other 2 Springfields. 1 dead stock, a pre Mil Spec / GI designation (has a combination of features of both) and my newest a 2010 made Ultra Compact Loaded. Only thing changed was putting in a flat trigger (cosmetic) and a EGW sear. The OEM sear was too narrow at the .030" face. OH and the sear spring. The center disconnector tab was cut at an angle and I replaced with a wolff spring. It pulls at 4.5 lbs. I'm happy.
ANYWAY.. I looked at the dimension on the original blueprints. I'm wondering if Springfield didn't "FIX" something along the way. (Since your Springer is so close to mine)

I'd like to polish the trigger bow guides. So far I've been satisfied with using emery cloth on the bows themselves and getting a free slip/slide.

HisSoldier
January 23, 2012, 07:11 PM
Might I recommend that you only load two rounds per magazine until you have established a level of reliability and experience with such a light trigger.
This is good advice, and for more than getting used to just how scary light a 2-pound trigger is.

I recently had a Luger double on me after a trigger job, the second round went up at about a 35 degree angle, which translates into through the roof of my shop! It really did scare me too, I knew it doubled, and I assumed both rounds would be on the target because of the cyclic rate, when I saw that the second round went through the roof I finally began to contemplate what 3 or 4 or 8 rounds would have done! That's when I got the fear.

Sometimes I wonder how many times a guy "lucks" out. I don't believe in luck, nor certainly in depending on luck. It's far better to read something like this and use caution instead.

Greg528iT
January 23, 2012, 11:40 PM
I guess I should have named this thread. "I acheived a 2.5 lb trigger pull by just applying precision aftermarket parts. If you are uncomfortable with this light of a trigger do NOT apply ALL of them" :)

I went into this and gave different pull weights at different levels of parts being added.
1st was 4lbs using EGW Sear and Wilson Hammer
2nd was 3lbs with lighter main spring
3rd was 2 lbs with lighter sear spring.

We've already discussed how the Wilson hammer was as advertised, with .020" hooks and is a hardened hammer. Should last a while.

We've not discussed how accurate the sear was. Before I purchased the sear a buddy fabricated a jig using the same dimensions from the original blue prints. It's a circular jig so that we can look at the sear face relative to the .4045" dimension that is 90 deg to the centerline of the hole. 90 deg to the centerline is tangent to the radius. Obviously offset a little in this case, but I think we can agree that at .030" it's pretty close.
See attached picture. This is an UNTOUCHED out of the package EGW sear. It's the correct dimension from the center. The face is flat. There is a good break angle already included.
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/jaggoett1/1911/EDWedge.jpg
I did touch that face to a 3000 grit polishing tape, but you can be assured that 3000 tape isn't really going to do much here.

I'm not a commercial for EGW.. I'm just trying to point out that for a little more one can buy a sear and hammer that is ready to rock and roll.

I know know that my spacing between pins is a little long, but as we look at the geometry, it'll only cause the sear to bury further into the hammer hooks (make it harder to pull out).

1911Tuner
January 24, 2012, 08:21 PM
Gentlemen...my intent was to advise you that drop-in trigger jobs may
or may not be safe and functional...nothing more.

Open your calipers to .018 inch and look at how tiny that is.
That's a 33% reduction from the original specs. Then, if you
cut a proper escape angle on the backside of the sear crown, you've
brought the engagement surface down to about .010-.012 inch.

The spec hammer hooks are supposed to be undersquare to
pull the sear back into the hammer should the gun be dropped or
otherwise jarred and to compensate for hammer hook and sear angles
that don't exactly agree...either due to varying sear lengths or
holes being mislocated.

The gun was never meant to be a target pistol. It can be tuned
for that, but it's not what it was meant to be.

You can bring the trigger down to 2 or 3 pounds, sure...but unless
it's right, you can also turn a rugged, reliable pistol into a dangerous
piece of machinery.

Hanging onto a full-auto 1911 isn't that hard to do...even with one hand...
if you're expecting it. If you're not, or it happens when you trip
the slide during a reload...it can get pretty ugly in quick-time.
It may fire one round and it may empty the magazine.

Go ahead and ask me how I know.

Be very sure that you really want a 2-pound trigger. If that's all
that will do, I advise you to go to a skilled pistolsmith for the work
instead of relying on drop-in parts adjusted to somebody else's
gauge.

Old Fuff
January 24, 2012, 10:39 PM
I generally stay out of 1911 platform gunsmithing threads because I have had more then enough of them, and by this time I think that everything that needs to be said has been. However there is no end to it as the same questions keep get ask over, and over, and endlessly over again.

But this one seems to demand a comment.

The safety lock (a.k.a "manual safety") is designed to block the sear so that the sear can't rotate out from under the hammer hooks. In other words what makes the safety safe is the amount of engagement between the sear and hammer. If on one hand you reduce the depth of the hammer hooks, while you put a back-angle on the sear, you can leave as little as .012" of solid engagement left. If the fit between the safety's lug and the sear allows even the slightest movement, or the respective pin holes in the frame are off, but still within tolerance - but with the stack going toward the maximum side, a less then hard hit on the hammer spur could cause the hammer to fall.

This is of little consequence in a target pistol, that is loaded, fired and cleared on command. But in a cocked & locked weapon with a cartridge in the chamber it's asking for an event followed by some serious consequences. Having the pistol double or go into automatic mode is not a fun trip either.

As 1911Tuner has pointed out - and I believe he's forgotten more about this pistol then the rest of us will ever know - the 1911 was designed and developed to be a weapon. It can be adapted for other purposes, but there are limits that cannot be safely passed. A drop-in or even fitted 2 to 2 1/2 pound trigger pull is way beyond this pistol's safe limits, because in leaves absolutely no margin for error or wear.

Greg528iT
January 24, 2012, 11:30 PM
I personally carry a Glock 36 with an eight pound connector

But in a cocked & locked weapon with a cartridge in the chamber it's asking for an event followed by some serious consequences

I understand you guys want to make sure no one configures their carry weapon this way. Did any of you read that this is a range toy? And a range toy that will probably re configured again.

gym
January 25, 2012, 12:03 AM
Too hairy for me. I carry mine and would be very hesitant to mess with tolerances that tight. Having worked for the Govt, as a subcontractor, during Viet Nam, I know what a few thousandths of an inch can do. And I would be afraid of having any weapon that is so finelly tuned, even as a range gun.
I am by far no pro in the gun building dept. but have seen tolerances stop an entire assemblly line. I am happy with my 4 1/2-5 lb stock trigger, even though it sure could always be better, there is a point of diminishing returns, unless you are a top guy like Tuner is.

Greg528iT
January 25, 2012, 12:57 AM
However there is no end to it as the same questions keep get ask over, and over, and endlessly over again.
Are you talking within this thread? The only thing I keep hearing over and over and over again. to the effect of, "not in my carry piece I wouldn't"

The way I learn is to be shown, ask questions. The only questions I'd re ask is if I'm not given evidence of it. Me.. I've shown pictures, diagrams. I'm an Engineer. I speak with pictures, dimensions. I fully understand tolerances and tolerance build up.

Canuck-IL
January 25, 2012, 09:49 AM
do you have a video of Colt assembling their 1911s? I'm curious to see how much fitting they do when dropping their parts in.

This might do ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psOgqSIHPEM

/Bryan

tuj
January 25, 2012, 09:59 AM
When I got my used Les Baer, the trigger pull was scary light. It measured at 1.75 lbs on my gauge. I didn't think you could even get them that light, but the gun passed all the safety tests. I put in a new sear spring and it brought it right up to 3.5lbs and its much more comfortable in terms of safety in my mind. Just a range-only gun tho.

Greg528iT
January 25, 2012, 10:20 AM
This might do ...
Canuck-IL That's the exact video that was previously linked to.

It measured at 1.75 lbs on my gauge.
tuj I expect, my sear spring's left tab will get pushed in or I just use a Wilson bullet proof sear spring in the end. This was an exercise in what quality parts can achieve. I've read a couple places where the 19# main spring is as light as you want to go and still achieve guaranteed primer firing. I also have a 21# and the original 23#.

Old Fuff
January 25, 2012, 10:43 AM
Are you talking within this thread?

No, I was referring to the overall 1911 platform, and the literally hundreds of threads that have been posted over the years since this forum started. This ones about ultra-light trigger pulls, and I remember one thread that was long, detailed, and illustrated. I have no interest (nor time) to reinvent the wheel.

"Tuner," for one has spent uncounted hours and written thousands of words explaining the finite details of how and why the machine works. I did much the same until I got burned out on the subject and switched to something else.

Since you are an engineer I'll relate an interesting incident. During the years when what would become the 1911 .45 pistol was under development, an army officer introduced John Browning to someone and called him an engineer. Browning took exception to this and said, "Sir! I am not an engineer, I an a mechanic!" (No offence intended :D).

Anyway, do you have a copy of The Colt .45 Automatic - A Shop Manual, by Jerry Kuhnhausen? If no, get one. www.amazon.com, and www.brownells.com have them. From that book you should learn how the whole system works, and how the trigger system/pull fits into a larger overall picture. Youíll also find out why what youíre doing isnít recommended.

How about a full set of drawings for the pistol and every part in it? No? Then go to www.nicolausassociates.com

Before you started this project did you use extended pins and a dial indicator to be sure the pin holes were drilled straight? Are you now using Dykem layout dye on the sear and hammer hook engagement surfaces to insure full and even contact? If you are using a lighted hammer spring do you understand that this can have a negative affect on the recoil system?

Apparently lacking previous experience, do you think that starting out by trying to set up a trigger pull that's way below the manufacturer's limit is a good idea?

I could go on and on, but how many times am I obligated to do so? The same applies to Tuner.

The only reason I got involved in this thread is that it appeared that you had given no consideration to what compromising the manual safety could do, nor did you understand that the margin of error that could lead to double-fires, or runaway automatic firing had been reached and probably passed. I really don't want you or anyone else to get hurt. Tuner hinted at this in his post, but apparently you didn't take the hint. Now I'm going to drop it like a brick, and then this grumpy old man is going to withdraw and go away. :banghead:

Hint: Never bring up this subject before heís gotten through his first mug of morning coffee. :cuss: :D

Jim Watson
January 25, 2012, 11:03 AM
The wisdom of a hair trigger 1911 aside, I have recently seen several posts here and there about action pin hole placement errors in commercial copies.

It would be interesting to take some careful measurements off of Genuine US Army Issue pistols to see how close Colt and contractors adhered to specifications in The Good Old Days. (I recall reading about interchangeability campaigns at times during the run of production, 1911 - 1945.)

Greg528iT
January 25, 2012, 11:54 AM
I have no interest (nor time) to reinvent the wheel.
and you joined the fray, WHY?
"Sir! I am not an engineer, I an a mechanic!"
This is true more times than I like to see. I work with more Engineers that I wouldn't let change my oil in my car, than I car to. There are those that I can get into a fully detailed discussion as to the properties of a hardened tool steel vs common steel vs cast etc.
How about a full set of drawings for the pistol
I do. Most have been updated from the original blue prints, which the only copies I've seen are illegible for the smaller detail. Why I have asked others to show me the original hammer prints showing the 89 deg hook angle. I've still not heard from them.
to be sure the pin holes were drilled straight
yes. I've also measure and provided detail information as to how Springfield appears to be spacing their pins farther apart, started a whole new thread to gather more information as to other Springfield pin locations. I've 3d modeled the pin spacing and given diagrams as to what this pin position effect has on the interface. I have shown a picture of how accurate the out of package sear is. I didn't post pictures of the parts removed from the pistol after several dry fires showing contact patches. If you want those I can provide them. At this point I am trying to get a picture of the preferred break / release angle. I've shown pictures of how a straight 45 deg chamfer just getting larger does not help.
Apparently lacking previous experience, do you think that starting out by trying to set up a trigger pull that's way below the manufacturer's limit is a good idea?
I don't remember saying how many trigger jobs I've done or not done. If you are talking manufacturers limits are you referring to how 1911s came off the assembly line back in 1911? Then anything under 7-10 lbs is a NO NO.
I could go on and on, but how many times am I obligated to do so?
you are not. so don't
Hint: Never bring up this subject before he’s gotten through his first mug of morning coffee.
Hint: DON'T start your computer before you gotten through your first mug of coffee ;)

Jim Watson
January 25, 2012, 07:21 PM
At this point I am trying to get a picture of the preferred break / release angle. I've shown pictures of how a straight 45 deg chamfer just getting larger does not help.

Chuck Warner is offering a "True Radius" sear with the tip curved instead of flat/beveled.
http://warnerpistols.com/_____NEW_____.html
Pity he doesn't show a picture of the actual product and what he considers proper engagement.

What do you here think of the idea?

(I am not a gunsmith but I have contributed to the lavish lifestyle of several.)

Greg528iT
January 25, 2012, 09:14 PM
What do you here think of the idea?

That is exactly the jig my buddy made shown in post #23.

The only issue with it is.. if the sear is already shorter than it is in the radius you won't be able to re shape a worn sear.
If you always started with a NEW sear that was out of tolerance long the jig would work sweet.

The Ed Brown sear jig shown in Brownells and Midway allows for sears to be shorter than spec. Put a .020" shim under the far end, and the sear face will sit on the stone. (Well unless it's .020" short, but then it's going in the garbage.

He also does not show the break away angle. The EGW sear has about an .008 45 deg chamfer. Tuner has mentioned using a different angle but I don't know if he means from the face or the side.

Claude Clay
January 25, 2012, 09:23 PM
my Kimber Custom Stainless Gold Match from 1998 came from the factory amazingly as described: 1.5" at 25 yards with a 'like glass' 2.25 LB trigger. so to did my s&w M41; M60/5" 357; Sig Trailside; Colt Defender was also excellent though its trigger was 3.5; and a Dan Wesson 14-V 357 Pistol Pac

there have been others but the point being that if you stay at it long enough, you will experience periods of ultra good and the flip side of that coin--Colt Pocket 9, Pony Pocketlight, Mustang,COP 357, Detonics 9

triggers below 4.5 pounds can cost more to defend in court. i see this as a money pit rather than a competency--he ment to shoot him vs the light trigger fired cause he was 'jumpy'. i switched from my defender to a p239/40 DA/SA cause of this. a shooting buddy who is licensed to practice in CT casually mentioned to me that all things being equal. it would cost me $10-15K more to defend a SA than a SA/DA or SAO.

another point is to have all work ( even a spring change) done by a licensed professional (even the guy who sold it to you at the gun store)
and keep all receipts/works orders.

Old Fuff
January 25, 2012, 09:29 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=132013&highlight=sear

This is a 2003 thread, and apparently the photographs weren't saved. But have fun anyway. :scrutiny:

Greg528iT
January 26, 2012, 12:34 AM
apparently the photographs weren't saved
I've read that thread and a few more. I actually saved some of those hammer pictures on my work computer. It was those pictures, that I had in mind when I bought the Wilson sear, and why I checked the hooks with a square lathe tool. Why I also checked squareness etc. The only thing I might have changed in this experiment was to get a hammer with .023" hooks. Being they are hardened tool steel I'm less worried wear.

The sear as pictured is square and the face is well over Tuner's recommended face to break angle ratio.


It was quotes like this from Tuner that made me feel safe in posting the results of my experiment.

1911TunerApril 6, 2005, 12:59 PM
Hey Raja!

No argument on those points. A fine triggered pistol is a wonder to behold and a joy to shoot. I've handled a couple of Abernathy's pistols with his special treatment, 2-pound triggers...and they're righteous.

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