SHOT 2012 in a nutshell


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Ian
January 23, 2012, 07:50 AM
"AR15!"

I think about every third booth was someone with a newer better tactical-er AR15. And the few people who missed that boat were making new 1911s or AKs. :uhoh:

Even CZ had an AR (called the Bren 805, with a piston upper and polymer lower, but still mechanically an AR).

Still, it was a blast to go. There were enough things up my alley (read: not AR15s) to keep things interesting. There was a 1920s FN breechloading mortar on display, the new .22 StG44 from GSG, and others. I got to interview Charles St. George (designer of the Leader T2 and Bushmaster M17), and got to tour Long Mountain Outfitters' sweet machine gun collection. Good times!

Plus there was a great antique gun show in Vegas on Saturday to attend.

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RyeDaddy
January 23, 2012, 09:11 AM
That's a good summary. You forgot "Zombies!" though.

RX-178
January 23, 2012, 03:04 PM
Hey, I was there when you were interviewing Charles St. George! :D


I think SHOT 2012 in a nutshell is really... .300 AAC Blackout. That took all 3 days and thinking back on everything one at a time to really appreciate how big an impact this caliber was making.

Kel-Tec SU-16s are going to be released in the caliber. Ridiculous amounts of ARs in the caliber, Remington 700, even AR makers that never jumped on the 6.8 bandwagon are coming out with .300 AAC Blackout versions.

fishblade2
January 23, 2012, 03:15 PM
yeah the new blackout cartridge is awesome but I am fearful of so many brands making the upper. It won't be long before it's like 1911's every gun company has 6 different models with thousands of upgrades and it becomes overwhelming... Also you have to look out for those that are not that great of quality uppers and finally the upper is going to be mass produces quickly which could lead to problems... I don't know maybe I'm just skeptical..

reloader-1
January 23, 2012, 03:46 PM
Other than novelty, I don't see the .300 AAC Blackout having much success. It is designed to work reliably in a suppressed AR platform, but other than that doesn't offer anything than more established calibers.

The Class III/NFA group is relatively small, and they will buy quite a few, but other than that I don't see how sales will sustain themselves. What *is* the point of suppressing a medium bore cartridge? Other than some relatively limited military scenarios, I don't really see the point. I can understand suppressing a handgun (home defense), or especially a long range rifle(recoil and dust kickup), but I fail to see how a carbine/rifle suppressed helps the vast majority of Joes out there.

RX-178
January 23, 2012, 04:23 PM
Hey, I agree with you completely reloader-1. It makes very little sense to me, but there you have it.

Everyone's jumping on the .300 AAC Blackout bandwagon.

Owen Sparks
January 23, 2012, 04:27 PM
The 6.8 will do anything the 300 Blackout will do and then some.

Owen Sparks
January 23, 2012, 04:47 PM
This is VERY good news! It means that the AR is becoming a common houshold item and that future legislation against modern high capacity military style semi-autos will be nearly impossible.

Kruzr
January 23, 2012, 05:02 PM
I'd say there were 3 reoccurring themes:

Tacticool stuff for AR's and every caliber AR you could dream up

Mouse guns everywhere. Everyone is making a .380 semi.

Zombie targets, grips, coating kits, ammo boxes, AR attachments, and assorted other nonsense.

RX-178
January 23, 2012, 05:04 PM
Actually Kruzr, I think the .380 mousegun craze was the past few years.

We're starting to see a 9mm Luger pocketgun craze starting this year, with nearly everyone who came out with a .380 pocket gun showing a 9mm version at the show.

Geneseo1911
January 23, 2012, 08:56 PM
"AR15!"
That's a good summary. You forgot "Zombies!" though.
Gotcha Covered!
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ar-15-style-shotgun-raac-akdal-mka-1919/

Ian
January 23, 2012, 10:00 PM
RX, you should have said hi! (Unless you're one of the folks who did...)

I did leave out the zombies...but I do have a gallery of them over at my show wrapup on Forgotten Weapons:

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/shot-show-wrapup

fatcat4620
January 23, 2012, 10:07 PM
So in ten years are we going to see nothing but the .40 cal AR and the .500 pocket gun?

RX-178
January 23, 2012, 10:23 PM
I did say hi, Ian, in fact you gave me your card.

I would have given one back but that was Day 3 and I'd run out of business cards at the middle of day 2.

Spec ops Grunt
January 26, 2012, 05:09 PM
So in ten years are we going to see nothing but the .40 cal AR and the .500 pocket gun?


And 12 gauge AUGs

S. Hill
February 10, 2012, 12:06 PM
Hey, we make a .40 AR (sort of like an AR)! Is there a problem with that??? ;)

www.mycarbine.com

mberoose
February 11, 2012, 12:43 AM
Posted this on another forum I frequent today cause of this dude that wants to convert literally everything to 300 blackout...AKs, ARs, FALs, handguns....everything

http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss293/Blackballed84/blk.jpg

Visheau
February 12, 2012, 12:12 AM
would that be the H&O forum on the Vortex?

mberoose
February 12, 2012, 10:06 AM
Maybe. lol

Cesiumsponge
February 14, 2012, 03:33 PM
A ton of new AR offerings doesn't mean they're all equal in performance and quality. In the 1911 world most folks can rattle off the top brands. Same with the AR world. It might be overwhelming for a newcomer but that is what research and forums are for. If that is what the consumers are demanding, what is what manufacturers will supply.

Zak Smith
February 14, 2012, 11:37 PM
Most exciting thing I saw was the new Hensoldt scope.

Cesiumsponge
February 15, 2012, 03:25 PM
Zak, what is your impression of the trendy 1-8x like the S&B and CQBSS? You're big on glass so is like to hear what you think. I've heard some folks give the thumbs up but others say its like looking through a paper towel roll.

Zak Smith
February 15, 2012, 03:30 PM
I wrote memo/essay describing an optic that would bridge the Type I, II, and III roles back in 2009 and sent it to contacts I had at several companies. Never really heard anything back, but now there are a bunch of approx 1-8x scopes on the market. Here it is:

Here's a followup of the "do it all" carbine optic concept. The
backrground is this article

http://demigodllc.com/articles/fighting-carbine-optics-for-the-ar-15/

specifically, the Type I (CQB), Type II (DMR), and Type III (SPR)
"uses" or applications. To recap,

[snip]

The goal of the new concept is to create an optic that is good at all three applications. The features that I believe define such an optic are as follows:

* Mid variable power range, no higher than 2.5 on the low end, and no lower than 6x on the high end. For example, 1.5-6, 2-8, 2.5-10, would all be OK. Ideal would be 1 to 8. The lower the low setting it, the faster close-range engagements will be (ie, closer to Aimpoint 1x). The higher the high setting is, the further it can be stretched, realistically, past the limits of what 5.56mm can accomplish.

* Super-bright reticle center, like Short Dot or TA11/31 ACOG. This dramatically aids engagement speed on close and mid range targets. Note that this part of the reticle is only used for 0-250/300 yard engagements (beyond, you are below in the reticle). This reticle center should default to black if the illumination is off or the battery is dead (like TA11). No other part of the reticle should be brightly illuminated.

* Reticle features for mid-range engagements. The optic should allow engagement of medium sized (2-4 MOA) targets as far as 400-600 yards using the reticle only. Reticle is first focal plane. The reticle lines need to be thin enough that a 10" plate can be engaged using the reticle only (in the hold-over part under the center reticle) at 400-500 yards without totally obscuring the target behind the reticle. A simple mil hash or 1/2 mil hash pattern would suffice and not be specific to any load/caliber/gun.

* Capable or lockable knobs (or extremely bumpworthy clicks) for 500-1000 yard engagements, *if* the shooter wants to dial.

Broken down by distance or type of engagement:

Type I engagement, close range, very fast: scope on very low magnification setting. Reticle brightness set to maximum. THe bright reticle center is the aiming point and is good from 0 yards to the point blank range of the cartridge, say about 250 yards.

Type II engagement, medium range, still relatively fast (200-500 yards): scope is dialed to 3-5x depending on shooter preference. Could be run at the lowest setting, could be run at a higher setting. The reticle features below center are used, e.g. mil hash marks, exclusively for drop compensation. The knobs are not touched. Target acquisition speed and the ability to make first/second round hits are key in this regime. First focal plane is needed because of this mid-magnification-range use of the reticle.

Type III engagement, long range, limits of 5.56/308, 500-1000 yards: reticle could still be used depending on circumstance. Alternatively, knob could be used. Reticle must be fine enough to see a 10x10" square @ 1000 yards behind the reticle lines. The main reticle center will be used if the shooter dials, so there should be fine/faint windage marks going to either side (1/2 mils hashes ideal).

In the knob, I would prefer to see a low profile, zero-stop and either lockable or cap-able elevation knob. The windage knob can just be low profile and cappable, since the reticle will probably be used for windage holdoff.

The ideal setup has mil-based reticle features and 0.1 or 0.2 mil clicks on the knobs. MOA/MOA could be done, but it is imperative that the two systems match (no mil/moa combinations).

Physical/optical characteristics- This is a scope for a carbine platform (eg. AR15/M4/AR10/SR25), affects the physical package:

* eye relief 1.5 - 2.4", this helps it fit in the right position on a carbine receiver, instead of halfway down the receiver. Practically, this eases the mounting requirements and prevents the scope from hitting things (lasers, illuminators, etc) on the quad-rail.

* largest exit pupil possible. Even though the human eye can only open to 5 or 6mm, the larger the exit pupil, the "easier" and faster it is to get a sight picture, especially when shooting on the move or shooting from awkward or improvised positions. This is the main reason why 3Gun shooters almost unanimously choose the TA11 ACOG (10mm) over the TA31 (8mm)-- it's faster and easier to maintain a sight picture with the larger exit pupil.

* compact physical package. TA11 size optimal. Must be smaller/shorter than a 3.5-10x40mm Mark 4, ideally smaller/shorter than a 3-9 M/RT.

If we look at existant options and how close they are:

Nightforce 2.5-10: no super bright reticle center, not FFP
S&B 1.5-6x: no super bright reticle center, wierd knob option
Leupold 2.5-8: no super bright reticle center, not FFP

I think this scope concept has the potential to "do it all" on the carbine for sport, practical, and military users.

If you have any questions, let me know.

warbirdlover
February 15, 2012, 10:27 PM
This is VERY good news! It means that the AR is becoming a common houshold item and that future legislation against modern high capacity military style semi-autos will be nearly impossible.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head!

87Theworld
February 22, 2012, 06:49 AM
I Have got to attend the shot show next year

beatledog7
February 22, 2012, 07:04 AM
From Owen Sparks: ... the AR is becoming a common houshold item and that future legislation against modern high capacity military style semi-autos will be nearly impossible.

Either that, or the anti-gunners will use AR-15 proliferation as irrefutable evidence that gunowners are in fact trigger-happy lunatics bent on the destruction of civility from sea to shining sea, given, of course, that anti's believe the platform's only conceivable use is the mass murder of people.

Besides, common household items are not safe from Federal regulation.

StephanCTF
July 12, 2012, 01:15 PM
I wrote memo/essay describing an optic that would bridge the Type I, II, and III roles back in 2009 and sent it to contacts I had at several companies. Never really heard anything back, but now there are a bunch of approx 1-8x scopes on the market. Here it is:

Quote:

Here's a followup of the "do it all" carbine optic concept. The
backrground is this article

http://demigodllc.com/articles/fight...for-the-ar-15/

specifically, the Type I (CQB), Type II (DMR), and Type III (SPR)
"uses" or applications. To recap,

[snip]

The goal of the new concept is to create an optic that is good at all three applications. The features that I believe define such an optic are as follows:

* Mid variable power range, no higher than 2.5 on the low end, and no lower than 6x on the high end. For example, 1.5-6, 2-8, 2.5-10, would all be OK. Ideal would be 1 to 8. The lower the low setting it, the faster close-range engagements will be (ie, closer to Aimpoint 1x). The higher the high setting is, the further it can be stretched, realistically, past the limits of what 5.56mm can accomplish.

* Super-bright reticle center, like Short Dot or TA11/31 ACOG. This dramatically aids engagement speed on close and mid range targets. Note that this part of the reticle is only used for 0-250/300 yard engagements (beyond, you are below in the reticle). This reticle center should default to black if the illumination is off or the battery is dead (like TA11). No other part of the reticle should be brightly illuminated.

* Reticle features for mid-range engagements. The optic should allow engagement of medium sized (2-4 MOA) targets as far as 400-600 yards using the reticle only. Reticle is first focal plane. The reticle lines need to be thin enough that a 10" plate can be engaged using the reticle only (in the hold-over part under the center reticle) at 400-500 yards without totally obscuring the target behind the reticle. A simple mil hash or 1/2 mil hash pattern would suffice and not be specific to any load/caliber/gun.

* Capable or lockable knobs (or extremely bumpworthy clicks) for 500-1000 yard engagements, *if* the shooter wants to dial.

Broken down by distance or type of engagement:

Type I engagement, close range, very fast: scope on very low magnification setting. Reticle brightness set to maximum. THe bright reticle center is the aiming point and is good from 0 yards to the point blank range of the cartridge, say about 250 yards.

Type II engagement, medium range, still relatively fast (200-500 yards): scope is dialed to 3-5x depending on shooter preference. Could be run at the lowest setting, could be run at a higher setting. The reticle features below center are used, e.g. mil hash marks, exclusively for drop compensation. The knobs are not touched. Target acquisition speed and the ability to make first/second round hits are key in this regime. First focal plane is needed because of this mid-magnification-range use of the reticle.

Type III engagement, long range, limits of 5.56/308, 500-1000 yards: reticle could still be used depending on circumstance. Alternatively, knob could be used. Reticle must be fine enough to see a 10x10" square @ 1000 yards behind the reticle lines. The main reticle center will be used if the shooter dials, so there should be fine/faint windage marks going to either side (1/2 mils hashes ideal).

In the knob, I would prefer to see a low profile, zero-stop and either lockable or cap-able elevation knob. The windage knob can just be low profile and cappable, since the reticle will probably be used for windage holdoff.

The ideal setup has mil-based reticle features and 0.1 or 0.2 mil clicks on the knobs. MOA/MOA could be done, but it is imperative that the two systems match (no mil/moa combinations).

Physical/optical characteristics- This is a scope for a carbine platform (eg. AR15/M4/AR10/SR25), affects the physical package:

* eye relief 1.5 - 2.4", this helps it fit in the right position on a carbine receiver, instead of halfway down the receiver. Practically, this eases the mounting requirements and prevents the scope from hitting things (lasers, illuminators, etc) on the quad-rail.

* largest exit pupil possible. Even though the human eye can only open to 5 or 6mm, the larger the exit pupil, the "easier" and faster it is to get a sight picture, especially when shooting on the move or shooting from awkward or improvised positions. This is the main reason why 3Gun shooters almost unanimously choose the TA11 ACOG (10mm) over the TA31 (8mm)-- it's faster and easier to maintain a sight picture with the larger exit pupil.

* compact physical package. TA11 size optimal. Must be smaller/shorter than a 3.5-10x40mm Mark 4, ideally smaller/shorter than a 3-9 M/RT.

If we look at existant options and how close they are:

Nightforce 2.5-10: no super bright reticle center, not FFP
S&B 1.5-6x: no super bright reticle center, wierd knob option
Leupold 2.5-8: no super bright reticle center, not FFP

I think this scope concept has the potential to "do it all" on the carbine for sport, practical, and military users.

If you have any questions, let me know.






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