[Wapato]

I'm asking this in the autoloader board because I'd expect the answer to be different if you're using a shotgun or rifle, and might even be different with the few shots of a revolver (which might be spewing .410 disks ). I'm asking about typical defensive autoloader rounds.

The question comes out of another discussion I'm in where it appears that only hits to or very near vitals are reliable stoppers in handgun rounds.

Generally I've read that law enforcement agencies aim center of mass. However if you're looking at a whole person "center of mass" is a gutshot. If they've got some cover center of mass could be the right lung not the heart. And if they're crouching or blading it might mean shooting through an arm, leg, or a low gutshot.


An alternative would be to aim for a "zone" it seems a number of shooting sports score this way, with slightly different shaped zones representing the vital regions around the heart and the brain. I've also seen some weaver stance targets where the support arm makes for a "no score" region right across the heart, so you have to shoot around it or go for a headshot to score.

Finally I've heard of things like the "failure to stop" drill where you put a couple center of mass just to try and have some effect, and then go for an aimed headshot.

So what do you think when it comes to autoloaders?

[guyfromohio]

Mozambique.

[ClickClickD'oh]

COM. Rifles, handguns and shotguns.

[SharpsDressedMan]

I'm actually practicing to be able to shoot the gun out of their hand, if possible. I still have a ways to go, but I'm getting pretty good.

[holdencm9]

Generally I've read that law enforcement agencies aim center of mass. However if you're looking at a whole person "center of mass" is a gutshot.

I think you are confusing center of mass with centroid of area. Or else just overthinking it. COM is more like between the nipples.

Mozambique is for if the guy might have body armor, or he is a zombie, and the first two shots to his chest are ineffective. Then you take a headshot. I practice that frequently, although chances are, in a real gunfight, it would be COM COM COM COM HS COM COM HS etc

[Sam1911]

"Thoracic triangle."

Center Of Mass is easier to say, though. ;)

[armoredman]

I was trained by my Dept. for the last 10 years to go center of mass.

[Wapato]

I think you are confusing center of mass with centroid of area. Or else just overthinking it. COM is more like between the nipples.


"Thoracic triangle."

Center Of Mass is easier to say, though. ;)

Center of mass is the center of the mass (it happens to be a little above the bellybutton on a typical person).

Though I think centroid is often what they mean, since you can't really "see" mass.

Either way, it's different than the thoracic triangle, especially if cover or angles get involved.



Mozambique is for if the guy might have body armor, or he is a zombie, and the first two shots to his chest are ineffective.

I'm not aware of the spiritual beliefs of the famous guerrilla from which the drill got its start, but I don't think he was an actual zombie, and he wasn't wearing body armor.

Handgun rounds regularly fail to stop, and physiologically, someone should have quite a few seconds even if you get them in the heart if they don't go down for psycological (or pressure wave if that happens) reasons.

However what I'm not sure about it if you're better off going for the headshot or just putting a bunch more..somewhere easier to hit.

[The Lone Haranguer]

I view "center of mass" as more up in the chest area. Although there is more protection for them from the ribs and breastbone, there are more vital organs (heart and lungs) in there. These are more likely, if hit (and enough times), to obtain a "stop," while being easiest to hit. The head is too small, must be hit precisely, and moves around too much to be a primary target. If you think about it, this is what hunters strive for when shooting game animals as well.

[eam3clm@att.net]

When I qualify I aim for the upper center of mass below the neck. When I train I focus more on point shooting at a realistic range. Depending on the drill it may be a double tap center of mass followed up by a head shot. My shooting buddy (ex- partner) and I shoot a drill where we have mulitple targets set up. Then one will yell out somthing like "threat right target". The shooter is then to start shooting until he hears "threat nuteralized". During this time the non shooter may give instructions that another target is hostile and the shooter is to transistion to the other target while dealing with the first. The shooter also has to deal with the third target as at any time it may become hostile. During these sessions mag changes come into play ( I do have the upper hand with my G22 vs his 1911). The point is that not all shots are center of mass, but most are on target using a 8 inch bullseye target. We in law enforcement DO NOT shoot to kill. We shoot to eliminate a threat. We do train mostly shooting at center of mass, but it is understood that a perfect center of mass shot may not be possible or it may be uneffective. It takes a long time to make a well aimed shot to the head and remember that in a real life shooting the head most likely will be moving. A few years ago I attended a trainning class and their school of thought was double tap center of mass and one to the pelvis region. The reasioning was the pelvis shot would disrupt that suspects mobility.

[CaptAwesome]

COM will be the best way for you to train, but don't get yourself into a "I need to just issue two rounds" mentality. Center of mass also generally refers to the available target (I'll let you decipher that). If you are talking defensive, my life is on the line, shooting, train to shoot as many rounds as it takes to stop that threat. Those zone targets you refer to (heart, lungs, fatal t, pelvis region etc) are good training aids to know exactly where you might have to shoot.

Oh and when it comes to autoloaders, practice frequently your immediate action drills and reloads. Paper targets and plates don't shoot back.

[txgunsuscg]

I've never heard anyone instructing center of mass as anything but the upper torso. This area contains the largest percentage of vital organs, giving you a better chance of stopping a threat. This should be your primary point of aim. If the torso is not available, like the Capt said, aim for the center of what is available, be it head, arm, leg, whatever. If repeated rounds to the torso are not stopping the attack, due to armor, drugs, or thick clothing, the "fatal T" in the head, while a much more difficult target to hit without lots of practice, is very effective at putting an end to an attack. Mix up your practice with the many drills available, and make a decision when the time comes which to use. Don't confine yourself to any one shot pattern.

As for immediate action drills, you'd be surprised how loud and disheartening a "click" is when you expected a "bang".... The only thing you want is to make it go "bang" again as fast as you can...

[1SOW]

Right above the "Xiphoid Process". Where your hands are placed for CPR. Or head shot, eyebrows to nose. :-), but it's a smaller target for a 180 pulse rate.

Keep shooting there until you get a chance to run.

[Wapato]

Alright here, lemmi look up some actual center of mass targets. I'm betting this'll be easy to google.

Ok:

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s2/neoncoax/comoldpaper.jpg

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s2/neoncoax/M4zerotarget.jpg

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s2/neoncoax/2edrt51.jpg

I think those were all for service rifles though.

It seems when handgunners say "center of mass" they mean "not their foot" in the sense that you aren't aiming center of mass, but instead at a vital "zone". Presumably tracking it if they angle or get some cover.

Presumably in a situation like:
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s2/neoncoax/01-No-Helm-235x300.jpg

You'd just keep firing at the heart and hope your ammo does better than the creator of the target seems to believe (or that it'd just weasel around etc).

[Ankeny]

I use the A zone on a USPSA/IPSC target because I have a lot of those targets.

[1SOW]

I use the A zone on a USPSA/IPSC target because I have a lot of those targets.


Me too. If they stand erect and wear a carboard colored shirt, they won't get the first shot.;)

[briansmithwins]

It seems when handgunners say "center of mass" they mean "not their foot" in the sense that you aren't aiming center of mass, but instead at a vital "zone".

I pretty much agree with you, but, if all that's exposed is the foot of some one that needs shot, I'm going to take the shot, at the center of mass of the exposed area.

Besides, a shot in the foot isn't going to do anyone any good and will probably slow them down a touch.

Shot at what's exposed. Don't try to get fancy.

BSW

[9mmepiphany]

I'm not aware of the spiritual beliefs of the famous guerrilla from which the drill got its start, but I don't think he was an actual zombie, and he wasn't wearing body armor.
What we now refer to as the Failure Drill was originally called the Mozambique Drill. It originated from encounters with Cuban soldiers, fight alongside the rebels in Mozambique, wearing body armor.

[guyfromohio]

More than shot placement, I think drawing from holster drills are most beneficial. You're generally not in low ready when the need arises.

[Double Naught Spy]

Generally I've read that law enforcement agencies aim center of mass. However if you're looking at a whole person "center of mass" is a gutshot.

I find it interesting folks often refer to "center of mas" when they don't mean center of mass. As noted in the OP, COM would be a gut shot. I can't think of any firearms instructors or schools that I have attended or read their books that advocate gut shots for stopping a threat, though nearly all refer to making COM shots. The terminology is being misused by folks who don't actually understand what they are saying, in part because most have not studied anatomy or physics to any great extent or because they are just repeating common defensive shooting terminology without actual consideration for what it means, sort of like when reporters call almost any long gun an assault rifle.

Here is an excellent explanation for human center of mass...
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/centerofmass.shtml

Actual COM shots are not supposed to necessarily take out vital organs. They are to give the shooter the best location for aiming that will provide for the greatest amount of error while still hitting the target.

Some folks refer to COM when they are actually meaning the center of the body itself (from the bottom of the pelvis to the top of the shoulders) and not taking into account the arms, legs, and head. This raises the shot to the level of the lower sternum. This is the point on the body that yields the greatest amount of room for error while still hitting the body.

Some folks refer to COM and they actually mean center of the chest which raises the shot up higher to about nipple/armpit level. This location gives the greatest amount of room for error while still hitting the chest and it also gives the greatest amount of error for being able to hit vital cardiopulmonary structures, but it isn't the actual center of mass of a human.

Area descriptors like "thoracic triangle" or "center of chest" tend to be more accurate for intended representation and inclusion of the primary vital organs to be targeted.

[1911Tuner]

Think of "Center of Mass" as the mass above the belt. That'll put the target zone roughly at the sternum. The thoracic triangle is a bit above that.

[Loosedhorse]

I aim for the left ventricle of the heart. If I am practicing failure to stop (and I do), then my other targets are center of brainstem, or neck of the femur (right or left).

No, I do not sit there for 30 seconds holding my breath and doping the wind ;). But that's where I aim. Where I hit during a speed drill is often different, but I tend to get closer to where I want if I choose these specific aiming points than a more general one. And it tells me when I need to slow down: hits six inches away from where I'm aiming get noticed.

[newbuckeye]

I was always told "Aim Center of Mass, Shoot to Wound" with the premise that a wounded guy takes to non wounded to carry him....but that was the military talking.....

[mavracer]

IMHO
Learn to shoot, Practice shooting to be able to put bullets where you want.
Then study human anatomy, learn what bullets will do to different parts.
That way when the time comes you can use your shooting skill to place bullets in the best part of the anatomy avaliable at the time.

[Hangingrock]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/Heartlocation2.gif

[nathan]

SHoot the chest , upper level of the nipples. Head is a big plus where the CNS is located but of course is a small target. Practice and practice until good at it.

[M2 Carbine]

Center of the chest or whatever I can get a bullet into.

Actually the targets I use are a full size head and a 1/4 size silhouette.
Both targets are about COM size but both have a 4x6 inch "kill zone".
My scoring is simple. All hits in the "kill zone" and I live. Any hits outside of the "kill zone" and I'm dead.
There is no second place winner.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/LCPsightsleftlaserroght8yards.jpg

For instance, in this low light "shootout", I survived out to 25 yards but the BG got me at 40 yards.:)
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/Laser40yards.jpg

[pesty3782]

Up close head 3-5 yards...moving back center mass then head 5-15 yards after that all center mass...50 yard shooting is a blast with a handgun...

[M2 Carbine]

Up close head 3-5 yards...
I made this rocking head target that we shoot at from 7-10 yards.
This day my friend's daughter beat both her dad and me shooting this target.:)

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/NG38rockingtarget.jpg

[allaroundhunter]

I mainly practice double and triple taps to COM. I also practice failure to stop drills regularly.

The threat does not have to be wearing body armor for a COM shot to fail to stop it, the body is funny thing, what stops one person may not stop another. The presence of drugs can also alter what will stop a threat. However, a round taking out the brain stem will stop anyone.

[Wapato]

I find it interesting folks often refer to "center of mas" when they don't mean center of mass. As noted in the OP, COM would be a gut shot. I can't think of any firearms instructors or schools that I have attended or read their books that advocate gut shots for stopping a threat, though nearly all refer to making COM shots. The terminology is being misused by folks who don't actually understand what they are saying, in part because most have not studied anatomy or physics to any great extent or because they are just repeating common defensive shooting terminology without actual consideration for what it means, sort of like when reporters call almost any long gun an assault rifle.

Here is an excellent explanation for human center of mass...
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/centerofmass.shtml

Actual COM shots are not supposed to necessarily take out vital organs. They are to give the shooter the best location for aiming that will provide for the greatest amount of error while still hitting the target.

Some folks refer to COM when they are actually meaning the center of the body itself (from the bottom of the pelvis to the top of the shoulders) and not taking into account the arms, legs, and head. This raises the shot to the level of the lower sternum. This is the point on the body that yields the greatest amount of room for error while still hitting the body.

Some folks refer to COM and they actually mean center of the chest which raises the shot up higher to about nipple/armpit level. This location gives the greatest amount of room for error while still hitting the chest and it also gives the greatest amount of error for being able to hit vital cardiopulmonary structures, but it isn't the actual center of mass of a human.

Area descriptors like "thoracic triangle" or "center of chest" tend to be more accurate for intended representation and inclusion of the primary vital organs to be targeted.

Great post. I think that explains a lot of where people are coming from.

Looking through this thread again, it seems pretty much everybody is doing roughly the same thing...they just call it by different names.

Specifically everybody primarily trains to shoot the heart out of silhouettes and pays some mind to at least being able to shoot the head or other spots if they feel the need. The pelvis option instead of head seems like it might be a good idea as it's probably much easier to pull off and might be just as effective against an opponent with a knife (not so much with a gun).

Nobody trains for cover, angles, limbs in the way, and the like. So in those situations it sounds like they might drift away from heart shots to actual COM shooting in an ad hoc manner. In any case being able to put bullets where you want them is going to be a good thing.

Though I'm wondering about how to train for headshots. The issue is that I imagine hitting the head is likely to be closer to skeet than silhouette. The body moves too, but not as much, and being a few inches to the right might still be "good enough" with a pulmonary artery hit. Whereas nicking an ear just isn't going to cut it.

[Loosedhorse]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/Heartlocation2.gifThe heart for most persons is lower than illustrated.

Most anatomic drawing refer to cadavers dissected while in a suppine position. In contrast, most chest x-rays are done with the subect standing, and are a better guide.

http://medical.toshiba.com/images/clinical/xr/Clinical-Radrex-04.jpg

Drug stores often sell stethoscopes fo about $10. If you want, buy one and listen to find the area where the heartbeat is the loudest.

[txgunsuscg]

The LE targets that have pictures vice just a silhouette will give you a chance to see different angles and how you may have to adjust your point of aim accordingly. They run kind of expensive, so I would recommend finding a range that you can purchase them at, vice buying them yourself.

http://www.letargets.com/estylez_ps.aspx?searchmode=category&searchcatcontext=~010000~010100

[Wapato]

@txgunsuscg Very interesting! Thanks for the link. If I'm reading things right, those targets are still very cheap compared to the ammo going into them.

The heart for most persons is lower than illustrated.


In the pic you posted it's hard to tell where the heart is in relation to a body, both for being zoomed in and for being hard to tell if we aren't looking at an angle.

But you're saying that the traditional targets show the heart higher than it actually is presuming the target is standing (so you should aim a little closer to COM).

Whereas when someone lays down their heart slides upwards, and that's what a surgeon needs to be concerned with.

[Loosedhorse]

But you're saying that the traditional targets show the heart higher than it actually is presuming the target is standing.Yes. A hit at the traditional "center chest" is a top-of-the-heart (or slightly above) aiming point: still a good target, but without as much horizontal margin for error.

And if the attacker is leaning forward (likely), then the aiming point on the surface moves up again.

[gym]

It all depends on how fast you need to fire. If possible I shoot left quadrant upper. If it's a distance shot or more than one person, "and I was alone" I would double tap center mass, and go on to the second bad guy and so on, maybe taking a split second knowing I have 2 45's on their way to the first one. It really doesn't take any longer if you practice your double tap and have a proper weapon with a quick reset. Usually the first subject Unless they are pro's with body armor" will set the stage for what happens next. But all situations are different, and you may have to fire at several perps at center mass, usually not the case though. If you get a head shot than take it, practice and it will just come natural. Of course there is no substitute for the real thing, especially if you are wounded and must keep your stuff together, we are geared to flight. It's hard to stay and fight when people are shooting at you.

[dcarch]

Depends on what part of the body correlates best to paper plates. :D:D:D
In all seriousness, I shoot for the X-ring on the standard b-27 targets. Perhaps not the most effective means of training, but right now, I'm simply working on contracting my group sizes to that ring. From there, I'll work more on "realistic" shooting.

[Owen Sparks]

Human bodies are oblong. The center of mass is actually just a few inches above the belt buckle. This was actually taught as the prefered target in the 1950's by such notables as Jeff Cooper. It has since been revised. Any hunter can tell you that a gut shot is not a reliable stopper. You should aim for the center mass of the chest. This will result in a heart or lung shot with plenty of margin for error.

[788Ham]

TheLoneHaranguer,

I'd not worry too much about the sternum and rib bones stopping most bullets, the vitals are only about 2 inches below those ribs and sternum. If you make it past the sternum {Cartilage }, you're home free.

[Ben86]

I aim for anatomy, not some generalized area. Mainly the heart or brain. Similar to what I do when hunting.

[Hangingrock]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/CrucibleTarget.jpg

[Loosedhorse]

Now, THAT target I like.

[Failure2Stop]

Aim for the center of what you can hit that will get the response that you need or can target.

If all I have is a left shoulder, I'll put a bullet into it.
If I have the ability to target the high center torso, I'll put as many into it as I have time available.
If I can target the CNS, I'll try to get to it.

[Certaindeaf]

I shoot for the center of paper plates these days.

[Ankeny]

Minute of paper plate when the SHTF is pretty good shooting. :D

[Dogguy]

I just expect the guy to stand still with his arms at his side in perfect light at 21 feet exactly until I hit something important.

[Ben86]

I knew those targets were good for something. You get to practice exactly what's going to happen in the field (as long as you wait long enough).

Yeah, maybe he'll get bored or complacent waiting for you to shoot and display that perfect opportunity for a shot, like a trophy buck at the top of a hill.