Full-Auto weapons on YouTube


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Grimreefer
January 24, 2012, 11:00 AM
Hey guys searching internet to talk guns with folks . I have a question , ok we all know the policies of owning an automatic weApon tax stamps, permission from local law agencies and a bunch of $$! How is it that there are tons of automatic 10 22 on you tube? They arnt using the Ssar 15 the sliding stock. Drop in sears possibly? They deffanatly post 86 weapons so anywAys drop me your thoughts

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Sam1911
January 24, 2012, 11:14 AM
Several possibilities:

1) Post '86 dealer samples. We have several SOT2 members here who could build a brand new one this afternoon perfectly legally, and then go make YouTube videos with it if they're bored enough to do so. They just can't sell it to you.

2) NFA registered Norrell trigger packs.

3) A little work with a file and a dangerous and illegal firearm. YouTube doesn't have a lower threshold of "smarts" before you can post. ;)

Grimreefer
January 24, 2012, 11:34 AM
My bad! Thanks for the response I'm John from Arkansas I'm in the funeral home business. I enjoy hunting mostly deer and squirrel . Married with a special little girl her name is laurel , she is autistic and the best little thing in the world! I've have always had a close relationship w my weapons! Hope to gain some more knowledge of firearms. Some of my collection is an pre ban ar15 ,rugger minni14, colt22 m4 , Sako 243 these are my favorites

MasterSergeantA
January 24, 2012, 11:43 AM
"3) A little work with a file and a dangerous and illegal firearm. YouTube doesn't have a lower threshold of "smarts" before you can post."

Ain't THAT the truth?!?

MtnCreek
January 24, 2012, 11:47 AM
Just committed a federal felony punishable by 10yrs prison and a $100,000 fine? Watcha gonna do? Make a YouTube video of it!!!

Ghost Tracker
January 24, 2012, 12:04 PM
Anyone who thinks YouTube has a conditional IQ prerequisite, hasn't watched very much. But it's not just YouTube posters. I have my very own shooting buddies who are surprisingly casual about NFA regs. IMHO, there's simply no jail-time (not even overnight) that isn't worth avoiding...for $200. Take a cab when you drink. Wear your seatbelt when you don't. Don't cheat the IRS. And don't ASK FOR a visit by shiny badges marked "U.S. Treasury Department". I've heard*, the closer those badges get, they grow to appear as big as trashcan lids! (*from a friend who bought an unregistered suppressor from Europe & had it Fed-Ex'ed to his house).

CoRoMo
January 24, 2012, 12:12 PM
One other thing is that Youtube is not a USA exclusive site. Our full auto regulations don't affect citizens in other countries who are posting on YT.

PTK
January 24, 2012, 01:41 PM
from a friend who bought an unregistered suppressor from Europe & had it Fed-Ex'ed to his house

So, he didn't just break one law, but many laws. Wow. I assume he's in jail now.

mboylan
January 24, 2012, 04:00 PM
There are several small manufacturing companies out there who use youtube as a marketing tool. There are also gun ranges that rent full auto guns. There are also a few thousand legal trigger packs out there. They cost about $9000.

Ghost Tracker
January 24, 2012, 06:41 PM
Wow. I assume he's in jail now. Nope, but it was a very expensive legal undertaking to prevent it. He's now a convicted felon (no guns or voting, ever again) on probation. All for a (freakin') $200 stamp.

Carl N. Brown
January 24, 2012, 06:48 PM
The NFA tax stamps are cool, and can be had by those with a clean record and a little patience in most jurisdictions.

PTK
January 24, 2012, 06:52 PM
Nope, but it was a very expensive legal undertaking to prevent it. He's now a convicted felon (no guns or voting, ever again) on probation. All for a (freakin') $200 stamp.
I really hope anyone considering breaking the law considers your friend's experience. $200 is cheap...

Rail Driver
January 24, 2012, 08:54 PM
Several possibilities:

1) Post '86 dealer samples. We have several SOT2 members here who could build a brand new one this afternoon perfectly legally, and then go make YouTube videos with it if they're bored enough to do so. They just can't sell it to you.

2) NFA registered Norrell trigger packs.

3) A little work with a file and a dangerous and illegal firearm. YouTube doesn't have a lower threshold of "smarts" before you can post. ;)
Not to dodge the point you're making (that illegal machine guns are ... illegal) but you can't assume that. Just because a machine gun is illegal doesn't make it any more (or less) dangerous than any other firearm.

I know a couple SOT2's that regularly make youtube videos for the entertainment and information of those that don't or can't have those firearms.

Sam1911
January 24, 2012, 09:23 PM
Not to dodge the point you're making (that illegal machine guns are ... illegal) but you can't assume that. Just because a machine gun is illegal doesn't make it any more (or less) dangerous than any other firearm.
Err....ok. I suppose not strictly speaking.

Someone COULD do a good job, create and install proper fire-control parts (auto sear, hammer delay device, etc.) and make a perfectly safe illegal machine gun.

However, the majority of illegal conversions that get identified and reported seem to be more of the "file down the disconnector" type that are either simply slam-firing (in guns where that is inappropriate), or are even purely runaway machines.

There is not a direct connection, but a strong association between the two! ;)

NOLAEMT
January 24, 2012, 10:32 PM
Thats what I read in it too.

Not that machine guns are dangerous, but that when improperly converted, some rifles can become both full automatic, and dangerous to boot, with essentially damaged fire control parts, etc.

crazy-mp
January 25, 2012, 03:08 AM
(*from a friend who bought an unregistered suppressor from Europe & had it Fed-Ex'ed to his house)

You would be amazed how many of those there are in the United States. They can get you for illegally importing a NFA item and illegal possession of a NFA item, and when you let your buddy borrow it for the weekend (that's how they usually get caught) illegal transfer of a NFA item. The IRS may or may not come after you for Tax evasion, depends on how bad they want you.

I guarantee the lawyer is going to charge more than 200 dollars to keep you out of jail. for a 120 dollar European suppressor that will not be built as well or sound as good as a American made one, well unless you know what ones to get, but they are not the low end ones that get sent over for 120 bucks with shipping.

Ghost Tracker
January 25, 2012, 02:21 PM
I guarantee the lawyer is going to charge more than 200 dollars... Baaahahahaha(snort/chortle)hahahahaha, are you kidding? That's a single hour's rate for any lawyer worth his salt. Try closer to $10-20K as a warm-up.

gym
February 12, 2012, 12:12 AM
$500 an hour for a top attorney

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 12, 2012, 12:45 AM
I've wondered that if you chambered something like a .223 in an AR 15 multiple times until one more chambering would set the round off, if you broke it down into a science till you had 30 rounds like this, what would that be seen as if you slam fired the entire mag by just releasing the bolt?

Ian
February 12, 2012, 09:24 AM
Legally, that would probably be considered a malfunctioning gun. But it's a moot point, because the idea is totally impractical. You'd destroy the gun trying to do it.

animator
February 12, 2012, 11:22 AM
I've wondered that if you chambered something like a .223 in an AR 15 multiple times until one more chambering would set the round off, if you broke it down into a science till you had 30 rounds like this, what would that be seen as if you slam fired the entire mag by just releasing the bolt?
Have you ever chambered a round so many times that it went off at the final chambering?

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 12, 2012, 04:38 PM
Have you ever chambered a round so many times that it went off at the final chambering?

No, but I know it can happen with guns like the AR 15 and Makarov with their free floating firing pin.


You'd destroy the gun trying to do it.

How?

Sam1911
February 12, 2012, 04:58 PM
How?
One of the primary functions of a full-auto fire-control system is not to make the hammer fall repeatedly, but to stop it from falling too soon, before the bolt locks up. Some weapons, blowback pistol-caliber submachine guns mostly, are designed to operate by what is in essence slam-firing. In fact, igniting just before the chamber is fully closed is part of the design.

But with a locked-breech gun firing high-pressure rifle ammo, if the rounds are allowed to fire "at will" because of a stuck firing pin or some other mechanical malfunction, the gun will almost certainly fire out of battery -- which will blow it up. It is even possible that at the high, runaway speeds attained by a gun firing out of control like that, it could possibly fire out of battery several times before catastrophically failing, which would quite possibly hurt the shooter badly as well.

animator
February 12, 2012, 08:24 PM
No, but I know it can happen with guns like the AR 15 and Makarov with their free floating firing pin.



How?
Have you ever personally seen this, or know anyone that has? ARs and Makarovs are not the only weapons with free-floating firing pins, and I've never personally seen or heard of it happening, and have only read second- and third-hand accounts on the internet, with the common theory being super-sensitive or improperly seated primers.


Personally, I'm not buying that as something that has even a remote possibility of happening without some other factor coming into play.

Ian
February 12, 2012, 09:14 PM
Actually, I thought you meant getting the barrel hot enough to cook off rounds.

jmstevens2
February 12, 2012, 09:32 PM
How in the world would one know that a round is to the point of "going off next chambering"? Can it happen? Yes. Can you predict when to that degree? I doubt it.
I've fired a lot of auto weapons while in the Army, and it was only fun for me when someone else was paying for the ammo!

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 13, 2012, 12:23 PM
Have you ever personally seen this, or know anyone that has? ARs and Makarovs are not the only weapons with free-floating firing pins, and I've never personally seen or heard of it happening, and have only read second- and third-hand accounts on the internet, with the common theory being super-sensitive or improperly seated primers.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=642035&highlight=negligent+discharge

jmstevens2
February 14, 2012, 07:08 PM
So the answer is "no".

animator
February 14, 2012, 10:48 PM
So the answer is "no".
I'm going to go with this as well. I don't see it as being a valid concern with today's primers.


Next time I get bored, I will chamber a primed piece of brass in an AR15 over and over and see if I can get it to fire... if it does, I'll be sure to make a post about it...

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 15, 2012, 12:04 AM
http://oldnfo.blogspot.com/2012/01/negligent-discharge.html

Apparently you didn't read that.

animator
February 15, 2012, 12:58 AM
http://oldnfo.blogspot.com/2012/01/negligent-discharge.html

Apparently you didn't read that.
I have read that, and quite frankly, I'm not buying it.


Just for fun, I just spent the last few minutes chambering a primed .223 case in the same AR-15 rifle over and over again, just to see if it would ignite. After 20 times, the primer did not ignite. It DID however, ignite when I pulled the trigger. This was with a CCI 450 primer.

So my opinion on this matter is that it will not happen.


If you don't believe me, maybe this weekend I will make a video of this and post it up for all to see...

Justin
February 15, 2012, 02:43 PM
So my opinion on this matter is that it will not happen.


Slam fires in AR-pattern rifles are not unheard of. While it's never happened to me, I know people who've had it happen, and have witnessed slam fires on two separate ocassions, once at a High Power match and once at a 3 Gun match.

I'm told that the culprit is usually ammunition that has been loaded with a light primer that hasn't been fully seated.

animator
February 16, 2012, 10:42 AM
Slam fires in AR-pattern rifles are not unheard of. While it's never happened to me, I know people who've had it happen, and have witnessed slam fires on two separate ocassions, once at a High Power match and once at a 3 Gun match.

I'm told that the culprit is usually ammunition that has been loaded with a light primer that hasn't been fully seated.
I'm not saying that slamfires aren't unheard of, as that is not the initial point. My point is that you're not going to get a typical, off-the-shelf round of ammunition to fire simply by chambering it over and over in a weapon with a free-floating firing pin.

jmstevens2
February 16, 2012, 06:17 PM
Which was also my point. He continues to not answer the question and misdirects us elsewhere when we ask. That's all.
If you let crud build up in your bolt and it causes the firing pin to be held forward, it will discharge. Cycling a round over and over to the point that it will "go off next loading" then doing it for a full mag as he suggests, is ludicrous.

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 15, 2012, 02:03 AM
Which was also my point. He continues to not answer the question and misdirects us elsewhere when we ask. That's all.
If you let crud build up in your bolt and it causes the firing pin to be held forward, it will discharge. Cycling a round over and over to the point that it will "go off next loading" then doing it for a full mag as he suggests, is ludicrous.

I was just reminded of this thread when I chambered a round in my AK 74. It had a slight dent in the primer. Did your tests result in a dented primer?

el Godfather
April 15, 2012, 09:41 AM
Lots folks who have put full auto clips on the youtube are not in the US or in any country that strictly prohibits full auto weapon. However, there may also be an element of shear ignorance on part of folks who are in the US (or similar full auto restricted countries) that have placed such clips without thinking of consequences. May be nothing will happen, and may be they will run into some one who has tendency to report such action based on personal grudge, habit or being an anti-gun lobby. Personally, I would not want to associate with anyone from said categories.

It is a fine line when we speak of these actions because on one hand we are asking innocent questions and yet on the other hand we are giving undue attention to the subject that becomes fuel for the 'anti' group regardless of the fact the information for them is already there.

It is my 'personal' view that we should leave these issues as is, and let the river run its course. Educational discussion on ownership of legal firearms is good, but that should be without pointing out specific instances and should be in neutrality. This is just how I feel. I know it is very subjective view, but I fear that one fine day we will see 'antis' prevail and make it difficult for one to even own a legal weapon. That is there goal. They are unconcerned with sports, hunting, collection, or SD/HD aspects of the arguments; and it is very difficult to reason with them on any of these grounds.

There are countries which have slowly stripped their citizens from the firearms ownership rights such as UK, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, etc. One can just hope that this right in universally protected around the world through various organizations. We should support them in our personal capacity and try to educate people on the use and ownership of firearms. I have met many people who were in past 'anti', but not they have some to reason and many of them now go out and shoot with and begun to understand it as sport and personal need.

One day at a time.

Sam1911
April 15, 2012, 09:50 AM
I was just reminded of this thread when I chambered a round in my AK 74. It had a slight dent in the primer. Did your tests result in a dented primer?
I don't recall having seen a round chambered in my AKs that didn't have a mark on the primer when ejected. That's why it is a really good idea to use either surplus ammo or ammo built with similarly hard primers.

The system work reliably and safely -- for 50-100+ million AKs all over the world -- unless you change one factor.

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 16, 2012, 12:26 AM
I don't recall having seen a round chambered in my AKs that didn't have a mark on the primer when ejected. That's why it is a really good idea to use either surplus ammo or ammo built with similarly hard primers.


Would it discharge if I rechamber that round too much? Next time I go to the range I will try it for myself.

Sam1911
April 16, 2012, 12:40 PM
No, I don't think it would. I don't believe the primer becomes "more sensitized" after each tiny impact. I think it needs a single blow, greater than the energy of activation, to set it off.

I've read of other folks running that test and giving up after 20-30 chamberings without any discharge.

Elkins45
April 17, 2012, 12:01 PM
Even if it were possible it certainly wouldn't be predictable. The only way to know how many chamberings it would take to set off any particular round is counting them up after it has discharged.

Bock on topic: I like watching many of the firearm related videos on YouTube just because they make me seem like a genius in comparison.

bamawrx
April 20, 2012, 05:34 PM
I have also witnessed two slam fire events in an AR platform. First one involved a heavy hand on the forward assist, which allowed the match hammer to jump free of sear. Not really a slam fire, but looked similar. Other slam fire was earlier this month at high power match. Bolt closed rifle fired. No other incidents with this rifle/ammo combination the rest of the day. Just good reminder how if you follow the safety rules no one will get hurt even when things do go wrong.

In any event, these incidents resulted in a single unintended discharge.

jmstevens2
April 21, 2012, 01:49 AM
And never forget, Murphy was an optimist.

Ex
April 21, 2012, 02:03 AM
Had a late '70s Thompson clone (.22lr) that had an acknowleged flaw from the factory that they recalled.
Was designed to be "semi-auto only and con not be modified to be fully auto".

The flaw was that every 3-6 rounds, it wold jut "go" fully auto and empty the mag without warning.

Flat scary it was. Absolutely un-predictable.

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