Gonna start a war, but this is a serious question


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armoredman
January 25, 2012, 06:02 PM
Is there anything the 30-06 can do that the .308 can't do, given the firearms made for them, the wide variety of loading components and ammo?
Just looking to see if people think the .308 can be loaded to do what the 30-06 can do.

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jogar80
January 25, 2012, 06:07 PM
Shoot 220 gr bullets?

jmstevens2
January 25, 2012, 06:07 PM
Got my popcorn ready!!:cool:

Zane
January 25, 2012, 06:08 PM
30-06 can shoot heavier bullets and will get 100-150 fps more with lighter ones. What does that mean in over all relevance is the real question.

Lloyd Smale
January 25, 2012, 06:09 PM
yup the 308 is as powerful as an o6 which is as powerful as a 7mag which is as powerful as a 300 mag which is as powerful as a 338mag. So if that logic is followed a 308 is as powerful as a 338. Short answer NO! the 06 is more powerful and ive shot enough game to know that it does hit harder then a 308 when both are loaded to the same pressures.

d2wing
January 25, 2012, 06:09 PM
You said you are serious. Ok then. What Zane said.

GCMkc
January 25, 2012, 06:11 PM
30-06 Cannot be shot out of any of the guns that I own...:D

nathan
January 25, 2012, 06:13 PM
If there s a special blend of powdes someday, .308 could outdo the .30 06.

Ranger30-06
January 25, 2012, 06:30 PM
If there s a special blend of powdes someday, .308 could outdo the .30 06.
Based on that idea, you could also use a special new blend of powder in the .30-06 and still outshine the .308.


It really is a simple cycle; with a 180 gr bullet, the .300 WM outperforms the .30-06 which outperforms the .308, each by about 200 fps greater than the next one in line.

nathan
January 25, 2012, 06:33 PM
You re right, its all in how far you shoot . All can kill within their killing distances.

Sheepdog1968
January 25, 2012, 06:34 PM
Unless you are in the top 1% of hunters of shooters, they are esentially the same in what they can do.

Mainsail
January 25, 2012, 06:55 PM
I'm no expert but I think something shot with the 30-06 will be slightly deader than something shot with the .308.

;)

crazyjennyblack
January 25, 2012, 06:56 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the .308 was developed out of the Army's pet 150 grain loading for the Garand. So, it is essentially like a middle-of-the-road .30-06. However, like Zane said, the .30-06 can push the same bullet slightly faster and can handle a greater variety of bullets.

However, just try to find a .30-06 battle rifle with a detachable mag! Like most things, your caliber choice depends on what you're doing with the rifle....

holdencm9
January 25, 2012, 06:58 PM
Unless you are in the top 1% of hunters of shooters, they are esentially the same in what they can do.

+1

My answer would be, you can get 3-5% more muzzle energy for about 24% longer casing.

LoonWulf
January 25, 2012, 07:03 PM
the 06 is the prettier, leggier sister...the .308 well...shes cute i guess.....:p

Seriously the 06 isnt alot better then the .308 till you get into the 168+ bullet weights. At that point the 06s really has an advantage. Hot loads will drive a 180 as fast as the .308 will drive a 165.

browningguy
January 25, 2012, 07:11 PM
Yes, since you are considering handloads the 30-06 will always slightly outrun the .308 since it is a higher capacity case shooting the same diameter bullet.

And don't argue it doesn't outdo it by much, facts is facts as they say. It does it, cut and dried.

nathan
January 25, 2012, 07:18 PM
How about .3006 to match .300 WM ? It be endless....

snakeman
January 25, 2012, 07:21 PM
Well it certainly can't be shot through an ar10 or m14.

ApacheCoTodd
January 25, 2012, 07:30 PM
Beyond a wider variety of projectiles and in some instances a greater efficiency in the use of propellant... it fills a Garand clip with significantly more style and looks just like a mini ma deuce round. For me - though being un quantifiable - that counts for something.

snakeman
January 25, 2012, 07:31 PM
Practically speaking i don't think one is better than the other. Unless you are hunting moose or grizzly or something like that.

mgregg85
January 25, 2012, 07:32 PM
In a bolt gun I'd take a .30-06. If you want a semi then go with the .308.

Strykervet
January 25, 2012, 07:38 PM
30-06 can shoot heavier bullets and will get 100-150 fps more with lighter ones. What does that mean in over all relevance is the real question.
That is basically it, that and the rebated rim of the .308 offers more advantages than does that extra 100fps I think.

Strykervet
January 25, 2012, 07:43 PM
In a bolt gun I'd take a .30-06. If you want a semi then go with the .308.
Then I'd rather have a short mag than a '06. It has the rebated rim, is beltless, and gives you a velocity increase over the '06. All this without moving up to a bigger action.

Face it, the '06 is really an obsolete cartridge that was just part of an evolution in a tree to what we have today. Not that it isn't good or useful, it is, but it isn't something I'd pick a new rifle in. Not today.

Ghost Tracker
January 25, 2012, 07:46 PM
Oh, oh...the 30-06 can't be shot in a short action bolt gun! (That's all I've got.)

Sam1911
January 25, 2012, 07:52 PM
It really is just very basic: More case capacity + same bullet.

If you're handloading ammo you can squeeze something between a handful and a few hundred fps more out of the '06 than you can the .308, using any given bullet. This really starts to shine in the heavier bullets, esp. over 200 gr.

What does that mean to you? Don't know. If you're hunting large animals or shooting long range, it may be important. Or not.

redbullitt
January 25, 2012, 07:54 PM
Both are good. Case closed lol.

BUT it may be good to know the short and long action if you will be rebarreling in the future or have a savage that is easy to switch barrels on.

Kachok
January 25, 2012, 07:55 PM
The 06 holds a very slight edge in every bullet weight between 125-180gr. The 308 enjoyes a noticabley more efficient design, running neck and neck with the 06 burning 10-12gr less powder, less muzzle blast and less recoil as a result. My rule is if you want to use 200+gr bullets the 06 is the clear winner, 168gr and less the 308 makes more sence, and if you you like 180gr flip a coin :)

1911Tuner
January 25, 2012, 08:03 PM
If you handload both cartridges to their potential without overloading, the '06 will best the .308 by about 10-12% with 150 and 165 grain bullets, and roughly 15% with 180s. Move up to 200 grains and the .30-06 really starts to shine.

Bit what does that mean, really? A little more punch and a little more penetration...and a little more range. On the receiving end, the animal will drop to either one if well-placed out to any practical distance. The .30-06 will just do it a bit farther out. On a practical level...with the average sporter, tuned for accuracy fed a load that it likes...you can figure on about another 50-75 yards...mainly because of the flatter trajectory.

There are those who like to take their shots at a great distance, and there are those who won't take those long shots for fear of crippling the animal. I'm in the second camp. I've self-imposed 300 yards, and the conditions really have to be good even for that. 200 yards is a limit more to my liking, and either cartridge will bring home the venison at that distance.

kayak-man
January 25, 2012, 08:04 PM
I haven't tested this, yet, but I believe you can go into just about any mom and pop hardware store in the U.S., and find a couple boxes of .30-06. I don't think you can say the same for .308.

However, just try to find a .30-06 battle rifle with a detachable mag! Like most things, your caliber choice depends on what you're doing with the rifle....

I believe Saiga still makes an AK variant in .30-06. I'm not sure if there are a lot of extended magazines for it, or how good of a gun it is, but its out there :evil:

My understanding is that .30-06 can do anything a .308 can do, and it can do it at a longer distance.

Really, the only advantage I can see with a .308 is that you can use a shorter action on a bolt gun, which would be beneficial with something like the Scout Rifle concept.

I'm no rifle expert though, so if I'm incorrect about anything, please, let me know.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

Stevie-Ray
January 25, 2012, 08:22 PM
The 06 holds a very slight edge in every bullet weight between 125-180gr. The 308 enjoyes a noticabley more efficient design, running neck and neck with the 06 burning 10-12gr less powder, less muzzle blast and less recoil as a result. My rule is if you want to use 200+gr bullets the 06 is the clear winner, 168gr and less the 308 makes more sence, and if you you like 180gr flip a coinVery sensible.

Craigman
January 25, 2012, 08:26 PM
reminds me of the old car engine saying. "There's no replacment for displacment"

Kachok
January 25, 2012, 08:36 PM
reminds me of the old car engine saying. "There's no replacment for displacment"
Sure there is, it is calld BOOST! :) ever seen those little 1.5L turbocharged racing engines pushing 1,500+hp. For the 70-80fps difference between the 06 and 308 (150-165gr) at max load I would go 308 in an instant due to the dramatic reduction in powder burnt. If I were hunting brown bear with a 30 cal I would want 220-240gr bullets which is 06 territory only.

rcmodel
January 25, 2012, 08:38 PM
Is there anything the 30-06 can do that the .308 can't do,Sure.
Like work in unaltered Mil-Sup 1903 Springfield's, 1917 Enfields, and M1 Garands.

Or, enable me to use the approximately 1,000 empty GI cases I have stored.

Or the reloading dies I bought in 1963.

Or get 100-200 FPS more velocity then a .308 with any bullet weight at the same or less pressure.

Or use 220 or 250 grain bullets.

rc

Arkansas Paul
January 25, 2012, 08:42 PM
Well it certainly can't be shot through an ar10 or m14.


I know. That's what's so cool about it. :D

Kidding. M-14s are way cool.

AKElroy
January 25, 2012, 08:49 PM
I'm in the second camp. I've self-imposed 300 yards, and the conditions really have to be good even for that. 200 yards is a limit more to my liking, and either cartridge will bring home the venison at that distance.

I do not own a .30-06, but I do have a .308, .270 and 7mm RM. I cannot tell a difference in trajectory, kill percentages, or damage between the three on Texas Whitetail out to the distances listed above. Deer drop with a direct hold out to these distances, the wounding when butchering the animals looks identical, and all three drop game like a hammer. DRT is DRT. Unless you have a need to move on to larger game at greater distance, take your pick.

AKElroy
January 25, 2012, 08:54 PM
If one likes to shoot a lot, the .308 is certainly more friendly at the bench in both blast and perceived recoil. As for ammo availability, the 06' is easier to find, but if having a large cashe of surplus is important, the .308 gets the nod.

There are also legions of target paper cutters that would give the .308 a marginal nod in accuracy potential, but I hesitate to post that notion without worrying about a whole new hornets nest being kicked.

Kachok
January 25, 2012, 09:14 PM
The 06 does beat the 308s ballistics by a VERY small margin with common hunting bullet weights, but as I have stated before, if I wanted better ballistics then the 308 I would go 300 WSM that can drive all bullet weights slightly faster then the 06 with similar powder charges, and up to 250fps faster with full power loads.

thomis
January 25, 2012, 09:14 PM
I like how Bart Bobbitt put it in this (http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/308_vs_30-06.html) brief article.

An excerpt from the article:

"In the '50s , when the .30-06 was the only cartridge allowed in highpower
competition for most matches, the best of 'em would shoot 5- to 6-inch
groups at 600 yards. The target used at 600 yards had a 12-inch V-ring
inside the 20-inch 5-ring. Shooting possible scores at 600 yards was
an every day thing. Then along came the .308 Win. and folks immediately
found out that in equal quality rifles, that new cartridge would shoot
groups half the size as the venerable '06."

Basically it boils down to a bit more accuracy with the .308. The lesser power being a pretty moot point.

d2wing
January 25, 2012, 09:53 PM
Thanks for that info Thomis. I wonder if more modern development would make the 30-06 competitive?

twofifty
January 25, 2012, 10:47 PM
Quote: "Then along came the .308 Win. and folks immediately
found out that in equal quality rifles, that new cartridge would shoot
groups half the size as the venerable '06".

Why would this be?

Kachok
January 25, 2012, 10:57 PM
Why would this be?[/QUOTE]
Shorter powder charge makes for slightly less fps spread, and shorter actions are by their nature slightly more ridgid.

Pete D.
January 25, 2012, 11:00 PM
the rebated rim of the .308
Rebated rim?
What rebated rim? The rim diameter of both the .30-06 and the .308 Win. is 0.473". They use the same shellholder. The 06 is the parent case. If the .308 were rebated, the rim would be smaller in diameter.
About the improvement in accuracy....can't disagree about the more efficient case but, that being said, I suspect that, the firearms used had as much or more to do with the shrinking groups.
Pete

jmstevens2
January 25, 2012, 11:04 PM
You re right, its all in how far you shoot . All can kill within their killing distances.
Or what you shoot since the M1 Garand needs to be loaded down unless you like bending op rods.

Arkansas Paul
January 25, 2012, 11:50 PM
"In the '50s , when the .30-06 was the only cartridge allowed in highpower
competition for most matches, the best of 'em would shoot 5- to 6-inch
groups at 600 yards. The target used at 600 yards had a 12-inch V-ring
inside the 20-inch 5-ring. Shooting possible scores at 600 yards was
an every day thing. Then along came the .308 Win. and folks immediately
found out that in equal quality rifles, that new cartridge would shoot
groups half the size as the venerable '06."


The key there is the "in the 50s" comment. Todays rifles make that argument void I think. I'm shooting one hole groups with a cheapo $400 rifle in .30-06, and I'm not that great of a shot. Now, granted, I've never tried it at 600.

armoredman
January 26, 2012, 12:21 AM
rcmodel, you bought your dies before my parents bought my first diapers. :)

OK, since that seemed to start a buzz, and thank you all, let me narrow it down a bit - can the .308 be loaded to take North American game? I'm looking into starting to reload this caliber, possibly, but I want the hunting option, as well as my usual target shooting, and remember somebody stating, (always somebody else's fault!), that the 308 could do everything the 30-06 could hunting North American game. I already know that both rounds are quite effective on two legged predators. :)
Thanks for the replies. :)

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 12:28 AM
Or what you shoot since the M1 Garand needs to be loaded down unless you like bending op rods.

this is a myth.

it has nothing to do with velocity, charge weight, or chamber pressure.

25cschaefer
January 26, 2012, 12:33 AM
However, just try to find a .30-06 battle rifle with a detachable mag!

BAR?

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 12:34 AM
thats a light machinegun

BrocLuno
January 26, 2012, 12:34 AM
If you handload both cartridges to their potential without overloading, the '06 will best the .308 by about 10-12% with 150 and 165 grain bullets, and roughly 15% with 180s. Move up to 200 grains and the .30-06 really starts to shine.

Bit what does that mean, really? A little more punch and a little more penetration...and a little more range. On the receiving end, the animal will drop to either one if well-placed out to any practical distance. The .30-06 will just do it a bit farther out. On a practical level...with the average sporter, tuned for accuracy fed a load that it likes...you can figure on about another 50-75 yards...mainly because of the flatter trajectory.

There are those who like to take their shots at a great distance, and there are those who won't take those long shots for fear of crippling the animal. I'm in the second camp. I've self-imposed 300 yards, and the conditions really have to be good even for that. 200 yards is a limit more to my liking, and either cartridge will bring home the venison at that distance.
Exactly what he said including the self imposed shooting distance limits :)

MechanicKid
January 26, 2012, 12:40 AM
A lot of people bring up the same aspect of the 30-06 cartridge vs .308 cartridge, more case means more powder, period. Has anyone loaded the .308 and 30-06 with same bullet weights, same powder with the same charge and checked the velocities? Now one could ascertain that the larger case in the 30-06 would allow for slightly more area for gasses to expand, the powder to lay lower and flatter causing a slight drop in velocity vs the 308? Not an expert at powder chemistry and physical state conversion speeds but I know these would be critical factors. An interesting experiment to carry out. So, anyone with both 308 and 30-06 bolt guns with similar barrel lengths and similar twists and are into reloading would care to experiment, perhaps there could be a bit more depth to this argument. Science anyone?

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 12:54 AM
I don't agree that there is a direct relationship between case volume and speed/energy. The tiny 308 is more powerful then the much larger .30-03 for example, and the small 6.5 Rem mag outperforms the larger .264 win mag.

LoonWulf
January 26, 2012, 01:18 AM
I dont think those were valid comparisons. The loads were too different .308 vs .30-03. The original 06 load of a 150 at 2700ish would be a better comparison, but still not reasonable as (as you have stated) were comparing an old load with a newer load.
Ive also never seen a top end load from the 6.5 that tops the .264 unless barrels pretty bloody short? The 6.5 can come surprisingly close tho, but personally i believe the .264 is way overbore...not way, way overbore, but pretty bad. Stick 26-28" tubes on both and i wonder what would happen.

The .308 Norma, and the .300 WSM would be a closer comparison, both are just over 80grns of water (i believe).

My major thought on the whole .308 vs .30-06 is what other folks have said....depends on the gun you want :D

CZguy
January 26, 2012, 01:18 AM
Is there anything the 30-06 can do that the .308 can't do, given the firearms made for them, the wide variety of loading components and ammo?
Just looking to see if people think the .308 can be loaded to do what the 30-06 can do.

Well yes..............the 30-06 simply looks better.

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 01:38 AM
I dont think those were valid comparisons. The loads were too different .308 vs .30-03. The original 06 load of a 150 at 2700ish would be a better comparison, but still not reasonable as (as you have stated) were comparing an old load with a newer load.
Ive also never seen a top end load from the 6.5 that tops the .264 unless barrels pretty bloody short? The 6.5 can come surprisingly close tho, but personally i believe the .264 is way overbore...not way, way overbore, but pretty bad. Stick 26-28" tubes on both and i wonder what would happen.

The .308 Norma, and the .300 WSM would be a closer comparison, both are just over 80grns of water (i believe).

My major thought on the whole .308 vs .30-06 is what other folks have said....depends on the gun you want :D
According to Nosler #6 the 6.5 RM edges out the 264 win, both were tested in 24" 1:9 twist barrels. The 6.5 RM also burns less powder in the process (no supprise)
130gr Accubond
6.5Rem mag 59.5gr RL22 3170fps
264 Win mag 61gr RL22 3166fps
120gr Ballistic Tips
6.5 Rem mag 60.5gr RL19 3323fps
264 Win mag 64gr RL19 3309fps
Since they both like the same powders this is an exellent example of efficient case design, case volume is not everything. These are not isolated examples, the 6.5 RM is more efficient across the board.

LoonWulf
January 26, 2012, 01:45 AM
Interesting, i dont have the Nosler manuals :( The manuals ive have show about a 50-100fps advantage to the .264. Tho i believe those were 22" and 24" respectively.

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 01:59 AM
It supprised me too, the 264 has a much larger case (68gr vs 84gr volume) but with the same barrel length the RM cleanly wins, now with a 28"+ tube and more slower burning powder, no doubt the 264 would have an edge, but nobody wants those super long barrels in the field anymore.
But that is besides the point, my point is that some cases are simply more efficient in their combustion, now that difference might just be a few fps faster with 3gr less powder, but it is that a real difference none the less, and if I were to build a custom mountain rifle i would go 6.5RM over the 264 anyday.

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 02:27 AM
Another good example is the 270 WSM vs the 270 Wby. In this case the larger case does have SLIGHTLY higher performance in some bullet weights, but only with the benifit of a longer barrel and burning alot more powder. Again these two also seem to like similar powders except in the 150gr class.
270 WSM 24" barrel 270 Wby 26" barrel
WSM 130gr bullet 65gr RL22 3396fps
Wby 130gr bullet 73gr RL22 3458fps
WSM 140gr bullet 69.5gr Magpro 3237fps Faster with less powder
Wby 140gr bullet 74gr MagPro 3162fps
WSM 150gr bullet 61gr RL22 3155fps
Wby 150gr bullet 70.5gr IMR7828 3207fps
This is a no-brainer, by my math the WSM would at leased match the WBY in every bullet weight with the same 26" barrel, and does so burning alot less powder. There does appear to be some truth to the short action efficiency.

LoonWulf
January 26, 2012, 03:05 AM
I would have to agree with you. I think they ARE a bit more efficient, not enough to override personal preference LOL, but there is truth to what is said about them. I DO personally like long barrels, 24"s is as short as i want, so a number of the larger magnums, and the .30-06 :D, really appeal to me.

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 03:55 AM
I don't mind longer barrels on magnums, when I am hunting in the brush I don't use magnums anyway, a 20-22" 6.5x55 or 308 work just as well as any magnum within 200 yards heck even at 300. Now when hunting a wide open field or pasture that is when I whip out the long guns, no branches or other snages to worry about out there. I wish someone mad a sporter weight 26" 270 WSM, that is a hella fine long range gun, best I have ever used in fact.

BigN
January 26, 2012, 07:32 AM
Whichever one you grab, I think you'll be happy with it. I've got 257 Weatherby Mag, 7mm Mag, 308, and 300 WSM, so I have no need for an 06 but if you're looking for a 30 caliber addition to your arsenal, either an 08 or 06 would be a good choice.

Elkins45
January 26, 2012, 09:31 AM
308 advantages:
short action rifles
current military surplus ammo and casings
greater inherent accuracy for those 0.01% of shooters who can realize the difference

30/06 advantages:
100 years worth of production rifles, including classics like the 03A3 and M1 Garand
ability to fire heavier bullets at greater velocity
most popular sporting rifle round in history, so most common ammo

armoredman
January 26, 2012, 09:37 AM
Gee, I'm glad I didn't ask which was better, 9mm or 45ACP... :D

Thanks for all the replies, gents, appreciate it!

K1500
January 26, 2012, 10:54 AM
What everyone except CZguy is missing is...the .30-06 does it with more panache!

The imagery of the .308 starts with M14’s/M1A’s and ends with short stubby cartridges shot out of tactical boltguns with short stubby barrels and short stubby actions. There is nothing wrong with this. The .308 is no doubt slightly more efficient in almost every measurable capacity, and is THE choice of an autoloading rifle in a major caliber and a precision rifle in a non-magnum caliber. For these tasks efficiency reigns supreme.

The imagery of the .30-06 starts with the ’03’s and campaign covers and extends to the glorious heyday of sporterized springfields carried by men who drive old pickups, wear red wool coats, smoke pipes and carry knives with the blades worn down from sharpening on oilstones. There is nothing wrong with this either. The .30-06 is THE choice for a hunting rifle in a bolt action. For this task, nostalgia and panache reign supreme.

In point of fact, they are very similar in most measurable aspects of performance. Yes, the ’06 will handle slightly heavier projectiles and do it a bit faster. Yes, the .308 will recoil less, use less powder, and can be fired from short actions that are a bit stiffer. The real differences are found above.

303tom
January 26, 2012, 11:44 AM
thats a light machinegun
So is a M16................

sage5907
January 26, 2012, 02:23 PM
I have shot and owned several 30-06 and 308 bolt action rifles. One thing I have noticed about the two calibers that no one ever mentions is recoil. Although the written word is that a 308 winchester has less recoil than a 30-06 just try a 308 in a light poorly stocked rifle. They will knock the crap of of an un-suspecting shooter. My analysis of the two cartridges is that you can get higher velocity from a 30-06 when shooting 150 grain bullets and less recoil by choosing the right powder. A 308 winchester when loaded to 30-06 velocities can be a real jumper. BW

HarcyPervin
January 26, 2012, 02:34 PM
1% of hunters of shooters

Another example of why proof-reading is important. Hunting game is one thing. Hunting shooters is an entirely different hobby.;)

Beagle-zebub
January 26, 2012, 02:42 PM
LOL, I'm with HarcyPervin, especially because of the whole "Hunter of Gunmen" term among Marine snipers.

cougar1717
January 26, 2012, 05:14 PM
Just looking to see if people think the .308 can be loaded to do what the 30-06 can do.

To give backup for the velocity difference that others have mentioned, I've cherrypicked the top velocities of both from Hodgdon's website and rounded. Although not listed here, other hodgdon publications show both use 24" barrels to measure velocity.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp


150's 3070fps vs 2975fps difference 95fps
165's 2970fps vs 2840fps 130fps
180's 2840fps vs 2680fps 160fps
220's 2470fps vs none


What you can do with the velocity difference, depends on the shooter.

Googleplex
January 26, 2012, 05:19 PM
I think it's a moot argument. When you get to heavy bullet weights, the .308 is at a disadvantage, but not enough of one to make much difference with proper shot placement (which is required regardless). The .30-06 is still slightly anemic for big bears and moose. You tick one of them off and you'd better have something closer to a .45-70. Get whichever one you want. The practical difference isn't much. Though in an '03 or a garand, the .30-06 is the only real way to go. ;)

Arkansas Paul
January 26, 2012, 05:20 PM
150's 3070fps vs 2975fps difference 95fps
165's 2970fps vs 2840fps 130fps
180's 2840fps vs 2680fps 160fps
220's 2470fps vs none


That's what I thought. The difference isn't as much in the lighter bullets, but as the bullet weight goes up, the .30-06 starts pulling ahead more and more.
I will say that in my personal experience, the on game difference is nil at ranges inside 150 yds. DRT is DRT. Of course this experience is with whitetails only. If elk or moose were on the agenda, then there may be an on game difference. That extra 150 fps may help on a quartering shot where max penetration is key. Then again, maybe not.

jmr40
January 26, 2012, 06:04 PM
To me it depends on the rifle you chose. If buying a standard size rifle I see no reason to buy a 308. The velocity between the 2 is so close that it doesn't matter most of the time. Where the 308 shines is in the scaled down rifles built around the 308 family of cartridges such as the Remongton 7 and Kimber 84. These rifles will be considerably lighter and more handy than would be possible in a 30-06, or even in a standard size short action rifle in 308.

try a 308 in a light poorly stocked rifle.

A 308 winchester when loaded to 30-06 velocities can be a real jumper. BW

It is not the velocities that are causing the problems, but a poorly stocked rifle. When loaded to equal velocities the 308 will have less recoil because it takes considerably less powder to get those velocities from a 308 case.

I could load each hotter, but the best compromise in speed and accuracy with my 30-06 is 57 Gr of IMR 4350 with a 165 Gr bullet. I'm getting 2825 fps with that load. My 308 shoots the same bullet only 85 fps slower (2740 fps), but only needs 45.5 gr of RL 15 to do it. The 30-06 needs 20% more powder to get 3% more speed.

If you run the numbers on a recoil caculator program the 308 will have around 16 ft lbs of recoil vs 19 for the 30-06 if both rifles weigh 8 lbs. That is a 15% recoil reduction, for 3% less velocity. If I shoot that load through my lightweight 6 lb Kimber the recoil will be almost the same, even though the rifle is 25% lighter.

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 06:30 PM
Either way you slice it you are splitting hairs, no deer, elk, pronghorn or yote can tell the difference. Trajectory is so close you are not likley to notice a difference out to 400 yd and those 220gr bullets that the 06 throws are really only usefull for game that the 338 win mag claimed as it's own a long time ago. Sure they make the 06 more versitatile then the 308, but are far from ideal on large dangerous game. 150s -180s are the home of the 30 cals and the 308 makes great use of them.

USSR
January 26, 2012, 07:40 PM
Has anyone loaded the .308 and 30-06 with same bullet weights, same powder with the same charge and checked the velocities? Now one could ascertain that the larger case in the 30-06 would allow for slightly more area for gasses to expand, the powder to lay lower and flatter causing a slight drop in velocity vs the 308? Not an expert at powder chemistry and physical state conversion speeds but I know these would be critical factors. An interesting experiment to carry out. So, anyone with both 308 and 30-06 bolt guns with similar barrel lengths and similar twists and are into reloading would care to experiment, perhaps there could be a bit more depth to this argument.

I have loaded both for 1,000 yard competition with the 190gr Sierra MatchKing. Loading them both with the same powder would not be fair to one or the other of the two cartridges. For example, if you use the optimal powder for the .30-06 (RL22) in both the '06 and the .308, the .308 will suffer greatly with a powder too slow for it's case capacity. And if you use the optimal powder for the .308 (N550) in both the .308 and '06, the '06 will reach maximum pressure with a charge weight that does not take advantage of it's greater case capacity. However, using the optimal powder for each cartridge results in a 200fps difference in velocity in favor of the '06. Both rifles have 26" barrels, and velocities reached were 2700fps for the .308, and 2900fps for the .30-06. My testing with 178gr Amax bullets (same 26" barrels) resulted in essentially the same 200fps difference. YMMV.

Don

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 07:42 PM
I could load each hotter, but the best compromise in speed and accuracy with my 30-06 is 57 Gr of IMR 4350 with a 165 Gr bullet. I'm getting 2825 fps with that load. My 308 shoots the same bullet only 85 fps slower (2740 fps), but only needs 45.5 gr of RL 15 to do it. The 30-06 needs 20% more powder to get 3% more speed.

kinda comparing apples and oranges there with 2 different powders aint ya? for instance 41 grains of imr3031 gets me 100 more fps than 48 grains of h414 in the same cartridge.

edit: covered above

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 07:53 PM
In order to make a fair comparison you would have to find a powder that works well for both of them, but since the 308 runs slightly higher pressure and will burn off it's charge faster that is tricky. IMR4350 in one of the few that work really well for both of them w/165s.
308 50gr @2792fps
30-06 57gr @2832fps
While IMR4350 is not the hottest load listed for either of them it is mid range for both and probably the most common powder used for both, plus they both shoot it very well (accuracy wise)
Both loads were tested in the same brand 1:10 twist 24" barrel.

zstephens13
January 26, 2012, 08:05 PM
No animal or man shot with one or the other would notice the ~200fps difference.

Hunter: Bang!
Moose: OUCH, that really hurt, but because it was only a .308, I'm just going to shrug it off. If it was the venerable .30-06, I'd probably be on the ground right now!

elrowe
January 26, 2012, 08:25 PM
If you're not going to handload, .30-06 can save you about a buck a box for factory ammo based on a highly unscientific browse of some websites - however, if you're going to shoot surplus ammo, .308 is still being made for military purposes (M240 machine gun for example) whereas .30-06 isn't, so longer term, the market will eventually run out of surplus '06 (most of what I've seen lately is from the 1960s).

all that said, I answered the same question a couple of months ago by buying an '06...

jhnrckr
January 26, 2012, 08:28 PM
Superformance

elrowe
January 26, 2012, 08:46 PM
As far as the short vs. long arguement, the difference in casing length is only 0.476", which is about 1.1% of the length of a 42" rifle - other than the difference in bolt travel when loading, it's a pretty moot arguement that seems to be more geared to selling guns than providing any real performance improvement. 1/2" of extra barrel length will only give about 10 FPS more velocity, far less that is lost by dropping to the .308.

Probably starting another war with the short action junkies, but that's what makes this stuff so fun...

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 09:01 PM
30-06:
can be loaded to higher velocities.
can shoot heavier bullets
is more readily available
is more versatile for handloaders

308:
can be kept standing on a shelf with less than 2.9" of vertical space
more can be kept in a tubular device where they must be placed end to end
more can be kept in the smaller pockets of womens pants or coin purses

ok, so really that's 30-06 4 to 3, so cant we all just agree its better and leave it at that?

CZguy
January 26, 2012, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by elrowe,

all that said, I answered the same question a couple of months ago by buying an '06...

Welcome to the high road.....I think you're going to fit right in.

jmr40
January 26, 2012, 09:22 PM
I could load each hotter, but the best compromise in speed and accuracy with my 30-06 is 57 Gr of IMR 4350 with a 165 Gr bullet. I'm getting 2825 fps with that load. My 308 shoots the same bullet only 85 fps slower (2740 fps), but only needs 45.5 gr of RL 15 to do it. The 30-06 needs 20% more powder to get 3% more speed.

kinda comparing apples and oranges there with 2 different powders aint ya? for instance 41 grains of imr3031 gets me 100 more fps than 48 grains of h414 in the same cartridge.

As several others have noted, comparing the 2 rounds with the same powder is a moot point. Comparing the 2 with the powders that give the best performance in each is actually more of an apples to apples approach. 4350 has long been recognized as one of the best 30-06 powders and RL 15 has proven to provide good performance in the 308. While there are other combinations that might show slightly different data the basic principles apply. If you were to load equal amounts of the same powder in both a 308 and a 30-06 case, with the same bullet, the 308 would provide more velocity. Load both rounds to equal velocities, with the same bullet, regardless of the powder used, and the 308 will have less recoil.

With the best loads the 30-06 will always beat the 308. If you bother to read my first post I noted that in full size rifles I saw no advantage to using a 308, but it's advantage was in smaller more compact rifles. This would allow a shooter to get 97% of a 30-06's velocity, and he can choose to get a lot less recoil in a full size gun, or select a much smaller and lighter gun and not have to deal with any more recoil than a 30-06.

A note about heavy bullets. Even at 180 gr the velocity advantage of the 30-06 is still only about 3%, and yes the 308 will easily stabilize 180 gr bullets. The difference with heavier bullets starts to be enough to matter, or does it. With todays newer solid copper bullets a 30-06 or 308 with 165 gr Barnes TSX bullets will easily outpenetrate the old school 220 gr lead bullets. So why bother with them in either chambering?

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 09:51 PM
If you want to compare the most potent powders for each here you go, streight from Nosler #6
308 win 180gr bullet 44gr IMR 4064 2718fps
30-06 180gr bullet 61gr RL22 2872fps

308 165gr bullet 52.5gr Big Game 2910fps
30-06 165gr bullet 63gr RL22 3002fps

308 150gr bullet 48.5gr Varget 3001fps
30-06 150gr bullet 58gr Big Game 3056fps

While it is clear that the 06 always has a slight ballistic edge at max load it is also clear that the 308 case is much more efficient, meaning less recoil, less powder burnt and less wear on the barrel.

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 10:23 PM
not necessarily the most potent loads, just the more common ones.

i keep seeing your data for the 30-06 and it just looks weird. 58 grains? 61 grains?

i load 30-06 with imr 4895. probably the most commonly used powder of all time for the caliber, and i can get a 168grain otm bullet to avg 2880 chronographed over a ten shot string with less than 52 grains of imr 4895.

my standard garand load is a 150g fmjbt with 47 grains of h4895 in de-milled machinegun brass and they teeter right around 3000fps with excellent standard deviation numbers.

it just does'nt take 10 more grains of powder to get great performance out of the 30-06 cartridge than it does to get similar or slightly lower numbers out of the 308.

maybe 3-4 more in my experience, but not 10 more.

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 10:44 PM
not necessarily the most potent loads, just the more common ones.

i keep seeing your data for the 30-06 and it just looks weird. 58 grains? 61 grains?

i load 30-06 with imr 4895. probably the most commonly used powder of all time for the caliber, and i can get a 168grain otm bullet to avg 2880 chronographed over a ten shot string with less than 52 grains of imr 4895.

my standard garand load is a 150g fmjbt with 47 grains of h4895 in de-milled machinegun brass and they teeter right around 3000fps with excellent standard deviation numbers.

it just does'nt take 10 more grains of powder to get great performance out of the 30-06 cartridge than it does to get similar or slightly lower numbers out of the 308.

maybe 3-4 more in my experience, but not 10 more.
Because that is an overpressure load, max load of 4895 with 168gr bullets is 48gr. We could go back and forth over my overpressure load vs yours but I tend to stick to the messured/published data. 47gr of 4895 has a published velosity of only 2752fps with a 150gr pill, might want to check your chrono.
Edit. Barnes load data shows 48.5 gr of H4895 at only 2822fps. http://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/30-06SpringfieldWeb1.pdf so I HIGHLY doubt you are getting a real 3k out of 47gr.

mljdeckard
January 26, 2012, 10:50 PM
What sheepdog said. To the vast majority of shooters using factory ammo, the difference is negligible if any.

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 10:52 PM
i believe you may be looking at h4895, which i show a max load of 47.5.

48 grains is closer to the starting load with imr4895 and a 168g bullet (it's the exact starting load to be precise)

max suggested loads with imr4895 is 51.2, but keep in mind that is suggested max loads (not that i exceed them) but it is not an overpressure load. i know how to work up a load and watch the pressure.

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 10:54 PM
(and i am sticking to published data too.

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 10:57 PM
i believe you may be looking at h4895, which i show a max load of 47.5.

48 grains is closer to the starting load with imr4895 and a 168g bullet (it's the exact starting load to be precise)

max suggested loads with imr4895 is 51.2, but keep in mind that is suggested max loads (not that i exceed them) but it is not an overpressure load. i know how to work up a load and watch the pressure.
Nosler listed IMR and Barnes listed H, your chrono is wrong if it is showing 3k, either that of you have some magic bullets and I want some :)
Barnes does show a 51gr max for the H4895 in 150gr so you are a little over standard pressure with 168s for sure, but if they shoot well and you don't have any flat primers I say stick with it.
There are some loads in which the 06 was closer to 308 efficiency, but they are less potent then the max load 308s I figured if I posted those the 06 fanatics would eat me for breakfast.

igousigloo
January 26, 2012, 11:22 PM
Looks to me like a 308 saves enough powder to load another shell every five rounds. I don't know if that counts for anything! If you don't reload it is a moot point.

CZguy
January 26, 2012, 11:26 PM
you have some magic bullets and I want some

No problem, I use a 168 gr. Sierra over 48 grains of pixie dust. Works well in my old Remington 700. :D

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 11:31 PM
Barnes does show a 51gr max for the H4895 in 150gr so you are a little over standard pressure with 168s for sure
but im not using h with the 168's, im using imr, and the published data that i have shows a max charge of 51.2 grains.

i just cant conclude that 51.2 grains of I M R behind a 168g bullet is too much because 51grains of h4895 is the max load for a 150g bullet. two different powders.

besides, wasnt your original point how the 30-06 used too much powder to justify its results with numbers of 58, 61, and 63 grains?
(now we are discussing how 51 is too much,,,,,, and 48 would be more like it)

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 11:32 PM
Now I suddenly feel the need to go buy the horandy and serria load manuals too, is there a chance that both Barnes and Nosler made a mix up? I would think that is a 1 in a trillion chance.

DammitBoy
January 26, 2012, 11:36 PM
What calibers win the majority of rifle shooting contests at distance?

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 11:37 PM
what does each book say is the max charge of imr4895 for a 168g bullet?

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 11:39 PM
but im not using h with the 168's, im using imr, and the published data that i have shows a max charge of 51.2 grains.

i just cant conclude that 51.2 grains of I M R behind a 168g bullet is too much because 51grains of h4895 is the max load for a 150g bullet. two different powders.

besides, wasnt your original point how the 30-06 used too much powder to justify its results with numbers of 58, 61, and 63 grains?
(now we are discussing how 51 is too much,,,,,, and 48 would be more like it)
If you are correct (and I am assuming you are) then Nosler and barnes left out the two most efficient loads from their data, because nothing they have listed comes close. The smallest charge they have listed that will drive a 150gr bullet to 3000fps (308 speeds) is 58gr of Big Game, and the smallest charge that will match the 308 in 165gr is 61gr of RL22. That is a huge difference to say the least.
Nosler only lists IMR only at charges of 51gr for 150gr and 48gr for 165gr. Barnes lists only H4895 at 51 gr max for 150gr

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 11:39 PM
What calibers win the majority of rifle shooting contests at distance?

6.5mm-6.8mm or calibers in the 265 ish range.

both rounds we are discussing are the same caliber-----> .308

bracer
January 26, 2012, 11:40 PM
If foot pounds of energy of bullets mean anything one can compare various cartridges by refurring to cataloges from the ammo manufactors. The old 06 has the edge over the 308 Win.

DammitBoy
January 26, 2012, 11:48 PM
both rounds we are discussing are the same caliber-----> .308

Noted, has anybody been winning any competitions with a 30-06?

FlyinBryan
January 26, 2012, 11:49 PM
If you are correct (and I am assuming you are)
well, dont do that yet. this is just what i have in one of my books. i have the newest version of the lee modern reloading that im looking at now but it does not show imr for 168g bullets.

the loads i'm using with the imr came from a really old lymans book, but it also matches the hodgdons website data for imr4895, but matches very few others on that site.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

i usually only use that site for reference because rarely does it match or even come close, but on the imr4895-168g bullets it actually does, at least with my older lymans book. (my newer book does not even list imr4895 for 168g bullets. go figure.

Pete D.
January 26, 2012, 11:51 PM
If I may join the soiree about 150s at 3000fps+
The Nosler book has a single load at that velocity - a compressed load of 59 grains of IMR 4350.
The Barnes book has two - 62 grains of RL19 or 59 grains of H414.
Hornady lists six loads using the 150s in excess of 3000fps
Sierra also lists six loads at 3000fps for the 150 grain bullet.
Max charges of imr 4895 and a 168 grainer;

SIERRA - 46.8 (2700fps)
NOSLER - 48.0 (2720 fpps)
BARNES - 47.5 (2732 fps)
Hornady does not list IMR 4895 for either 150s or 168s (not the edition that I have)

d2wing
January 26, 2012, 11:57 PM
Some guys like to argue a point when they don't have one. Not that I have ever done that on here.

Kachok
January 26, 2012, 11:58 PM
If I may join the soiree about 150s at 3000fps+
The Nosler book has a single load at that velocity - a compressed load of 59 grains of IMR 4350.
The Barnes book has two - 62 grains of RL19 or 59 grains of H414.
Hornady lists six loads using the 150s in excess of 3000fps
Sierra also lists six loads at 3000fps for the 150 grain bullet.
Max charges of imr 4895 and a 168 grainer;

SIERRA - 46.8 (2700fps)
NOSLER - 48.0 (2720 fpps)
BARNES - 47.5 (2732 fps)
Hornady does not list IMR 4895 for either 150s or 168s (not the edition that I have)
Those are all well below the 2880fps quoted earlier. How long is that barrel on your 06 Bryan?

Kachok
January 27, 2012, 12:09 AM
OK found it, max load of H4895 with a 150gr bullet is 46gr yeilding 2806fps. That is streight fron hogdons website. Bryan you might want to invest in a new chrono, there is no way you are getting 200fps out of 1 extra gr I don't care how long your barrel is :)
Max for 168s is 48gr at 2719fps, about what all other sources have listed. Sure that is burning 308 level powder charges, but it is slower then the 308 too.

FlyinBryan
January 27, 2012, 12:21 AM
That is streight fron hogdons website

Max for 168s is 48gr at 2719fps
i guess i not only need a new chrono, but a new brain, because im looking at the same website, and it says max load for imr4895 and a 168g bullet is 51.2 grains of powder @2859fps.

i will try to copy and paste it.
Cartridge: 30-06
Load Type: Rifle
Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

168 GR. HDY HPBT IMR IMR 4895 .308" 3.230" 48.0 2719 49,900 PSI 51.2 2859 58,200 PSI

Kachok
January 27, 2012, 12:30 AM
LOL my bad, I was looking at the starting load, too many number on such a small screen, but that is still the same speed as a 308 with only 44gr of RL15. I have worked the numbers 50 different ways and in each bullet weight the 308 seems to burn aprox 6-10gr less powder for the same performance.

d2wing
January 27, 2012, 12:47 AM
I've been looking too. :IMR 4895 53 gr 3009 fps. 150 gr sp
my fav ;4064 52.5 gr 901 fps 165gr psp
30-06 Hornady fact ; 180 gr at 2900fps interbond max. Hornaday has found a way toi aplly more modernscience to the 30-06 loads:

Kachok
January 27, 2012, 12:53 AM
The only thing I don't like about hogdon/hornady is their reload data for the 6.5x55 only list small ring mauser pressures (46,000 CUP) not modern action pressures, making them utterly worthelss to me since that is the rifle I shoot most by far.

mshootnit
January 27, 2012, 01:01 AM
I love that the title says "gonna start a war" and then I immediately see 5 pages of discussion! Nothing like calling your own shot!
30-06 is a hell of a cartridge and is neck and shoulder above the 308.:D

FlyinBryan
January 27, 2012, 01:04 AM
I love that the title says "gonna start a war" and then I immediately see 5 pages of discussion! Nothing like calling your own shot!

lol, nice observation now that you mention it.

i actually learn more when i argue a point that im wrong about. it makes me a better argue-er (sp?) in the future. one of these days i will be untouchable!

FlyinBryan
January 27, 2012, 01:07 AM
these guys would be valuable members here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTl9zYS3_dc

Kachok
January 27, 2012, 01:09 AM
lol, nice observation now that you mention it.

i actually learn more when i argue a point that im wrong about. it makes me a better argue-er (sp?) in the future. one of these days i will be untouchable!
Too true, I leaned alot being on the wrong end of several debates, but nowadays not many can hold their own aginst me :) I don't even have a horse in this race, I got rid of my last 308 a couple years ago, my little 6.5x55 simply outshines it for every species of game we have around here. Deer, yotes, hogs....it puts them all to sleep with half the recoil, flatter trajectory and alot less the noise.

d2wing
January 27, 2012, 01:10 AM
308 and 30-06 are like brothers in th old army.

FlyinBryan
January 27, 2012, 01:22 AM
my little 6.5x55 simply outshines it for every species of game we have around here. Deer, yotes, hogs....it puts them all to sleep with half the recoil, flatter trajectory and alot less the noise.

no, its only good for paper. ive read that it cant kill hogs or deer. you need another 1.12mm to kill those completely.

Kachok
January 27, 2012, 01:26 AM
no, its only good for paper. ive read that it cant kill hogs or deer. you need another 1.12mm to kill those completely.
LOL don't tell that to the meat in my freezer, would not want them to wake up on me :) I have to side with Chuck Hawks on this one, if there ever were such a thing as a perfect deer rifle it would be either a 6.5x55 or a 7mm-08. You simply don't need 308 or 30-06 power for deer.

Murphy4570
January 27, 2012, 01:28 AM
Sure there is, it is calld BOOST! ever seen those little 1.5L turbocharged racing engines pushing 1,500+hp. For the 70-80fps difference between the 06 and 308 (150-165gr) at max load I would go 308 in an instant due to the dramatic reduction in powder burnt. If I were hunting brown bear with a 30 cal I would want 220-240gr bullets which is 06 territory only.

Ever see a Top Fuel V8 pump out 8,000-10,000+ HP? You can boost big displacement engines too, you know. Different outcomes when you look at torque and the power curve between itty bitty four bangers and V8s too.

As for the 30-06, I own a M1903, and have a M1917 on layaway. I guess that shows which camp I'm in on this debate, eh? The 7.62 NATO round is OK and all, but its service life is mostly in GPMG and HMG duties. Battle rifles chambered in it are horrendously expensive, such as the M14 and the FN-FAL.

FlyinBryan
January 27, 2012, 01:34 AM
LOL don't tell that to the meat in my freezer

i suppose it's possible they were already sick when you shot those ones?

i'm trying to be the last one before the lock because thats how these threads are officially decided, oh nevermind, i concede

my "they were already sick" was too much even for me :D

Kachok
January 27, 2012, 01:43 AM
The little 6.5 sweed has been putting down game much larger then deer over the last 120 years, it is regularly used for moose and elk in Europe, has been used with great sucess for polor bear in the frozen tundra, and it's little brother the 6.5x54 has been used in Africa to harvest many an elephant, I don't think whitetail deer and feral hogs is pushing it's abilities at all :D

FlyinBryan
January 27, 2012, 01:49 AM
6.5x54 for elephants? so then 308 OR 30-06 could take down elephants i would guess?

Kachok
January 27, 2012, 01:56 AM
6.5x54 for elephants? so then 308 OR 30-06 could take down elephants i would guess?
I would not care to try it with the 308 because it does not like the ultra high SD bullets required to penatrate an elephants skull (though the 06 has done it before), remember the 6.5x55 and 54 both were designed to use a 160gr bullet, that is about the same SD as a 220gr .30cal. That is the reason they penatrate so darn well. Even using 120 and 140gr I have never recoverd a bullet, 100% through and throughs.

FlyinBryan
January 27, 2012, 02:13 AM
what is the twist of that 6.5? 1-9 - 1-10ish? you've tweaked my curiousity.

Kachok
January 27, 2012, 02:14 AM
what is the twist of that 6.5? 1-9 - 1-10ish? you've tweaked my curiousity.
Mine is a 1:8 twist, that will stabalize any 6.5mm projectile you could throw at it, some people like the 1:9s for up to140gr. I have yet to find a use for the 160gr javlins, but I like knowing I can use them in case we have an outbreak of 800lbs rabid hogs. The 140gr Burger VLD has the highest BC of any hunting bullet in the small caliber world, an astonishing .612 BC!! Even flat base soft points like the Nosler Partition have BC in the range of .490, you won't get that from a 180gr-200gr .30 cal :)

Prosser
January 27, 2012, 02:24 AM
I love em, and have owned and shot both.
30-06 is never army surplus, or at least that I can find(darn, haven't tried CMP lately) and it's the same with .308.

Buy Russian. 7.62 X54R is equal to both and when's the last time you bought .308 for 440 rounds, for 80 dollars????

Gtscotty
January 27, 2012, 06:53 AM
Buy Russian. 7.62 X54R is equal to both and when's the last time you bought .308 for 440 rounds, for 80 dollars????

Its not really the equal to either, 180gr at 2600 fps tops... out of a 28 inch barrel. both the '06 and the .308 will beat that handily out of a substantially shorter barrel... if you expect a 40-50 fps loss for every inch less of barrel (a wag I know) then the same 7.62x54 load would be pushed hard to crest 2400 fps out of a 24 inch barrel.

But the biggest drawback to buying all of that cheap 7.62x54R is that you're stuck shooting it out of either, one of those old communist plows (mosin), or a relatively expensive semi (SVD, etc.).

I reckon I'd rather buy a modern rifle designed with ergonomics in mind, and chambered in a cartridge that hasn't been thoroughly outclassed for over a hundred years. Will it be more expensive? probably. Will I shoot it less? maybe. Will my dollars be invested in a wholly better product? Definitely. Everybody should have a couple .22s for volume fire/plinking anyway.

Prosser
January 27, 2012, 07:34 AM
Oh please, get a bit internet savvy. I posted that, hoping people would rush in with links to cheap 30-06 ammo, or even cheap .308 ammo.

I've had a 30-06 since the 70's. Interarms Mauser Action Mark X.
Timney trigger. Shoots 2 inches at 100 yards, and that was with the old wood stock. Should be better with the bedded black rifle stock.

First rifles I ever shot, M1A/M14. Under an inch, all day, 100 yards, open sites, NOT full auto.

I might buy .308, if I could find a great deal, THEN buy a rifle for it.:D;)

Nice to have all the calibers, since when ammo is cheap for one, you can buy and shoot it.

I have an M44, great fun, cheap, and my gunsmith won't even attempt to improve the trigger. It's ok. It cost about 100 bucks, and has a bayonet. What's not to like?

Do you really think 180 grains, in a soft point .312 caliber bullet, at even 2400 fps is not going to be effective?

Not as flat as the 30-06, but works at lower pressure, and gets the job done. Besides, with open sites, I'm now under 100 yards anyway.;-(

P-32
January 27, 2012, 08:16 AM
308 is nothing more than a 30-06 Long and not quite the Long Rifle. :neener:.

Gtscotty
January 27, 2012, 08:38 AM
I think I can find my way around the internet alright, but thanks for your help ;)

I never said the 7.62x54R wouldn't be effective, I was merely responding to your assertion that it is equal to the .308 or 30-06... its just not, no matter how many times that phrase is repeated on your fancy internet. The 30-30 is effective too, but an equal of the 30-06 and .308 it is not.

The reason 7.62x54 is as popular as it is is the ammo is cheap-ish, and you can pick up a mosin for like $80.... The only thing that rifle-cartridge combo does better than the plethora of other more modern rifle-cartridge combo's is be cheap, nothing more, nothing less.

Prosser
January 27, 2012, 10:16 AM
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm
:neener:
There you have it. In the end, it is clear to any open minded inquirer that the Mosin Nagant is the most superior weapon of all time, but the AR and the AK come out as a draw when compared side by side.

I think you really need to look at reloading data. First off, the 7.62 works at 25% lower pressure, around 40k vs. the stupid higher pressures of the 30-06.
The 54r gives you nearly the same velocity, with lower recoil. The 150 grain loads are near identical in speed. Besides, what's the difference between 2900 fps and 3050 fps? No one is going to know the difference.

Back to the OP's question. The 30-06 is slightly overbore, so, the .308 can use powder more effectively then the 30-06, getting more speed per grain then the 30-06. The 308 fits in a shorter action.

You gain those features, but loose the case capacity to power 220 grain bullets for large game.

Gtscotty
January 27, 2012, 10:41 AM
I think you really need to look at reloading data. First off, the 7.62 works at 25% lower pressure, around 40k vs. the stupid higher pressures of the 30-06.
The 54r gives you nearly the same velocity, with lower recoil. The 150 grain loads are near identical in speed. Besides, what's the difference between 2900 fps and 3050 fps? No one is going to know the difference.


Hmm, so my choices for feeding my commie plow are:

1. Reload 7.62x54R and spend more per round (that brass isn't so cheap) than 30-06, and still get less power, or

2. Buy underpowered and corrosive surplus ammo on the cheap.

You'll have to forgive me for taking a pass... but I do like how you assume that I don't know how to navagate either the internet or a loadbook. That's cool :cool:

Art Eatman
January 27, 2012, 11:53 AM
Neither cartridge will beat a pointed stick. :D (That was a rather long thread, too.)

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