high end hk clone?


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Ian Johnson
January 25, 2012, 10:02 PM
anyone heard of these rifles? http://www.ptr91.com/products/

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TwoWheelFiend
January 25, 2012, 10:13 PM
My LGS has one, doesn't seem to be the greatest thing in the world. Ive held it a few times, way too utilitarian for me. And the sights are got awful. Just my .02 tho

JustinJ
January 27, 2012, 10:29 AM
Too utilitarian? I'm not sure how that happens but PTRs are generally considered to be of high quality and are supposedly built on real HK machinery. Short of the real deal they are probably the best bet.

Ar180shooter
January 27, 2012, 10:32 AM
http://www.ptr91.com/uploaded_files/rifles/406x108_i_36aceea77c8658e6520661e2b9305a5aPTR-91C.png

God, how I wish I could get one of these up here... :(

animator
January 27, 2012, 10:56 AM
They're fine rifles.


I used one of PTR91inc's barrels for my G3 build. I've been happy with it.

Ian Johnson
January 27, 2012, 01:18 PM
Yeah I cant decide if I want one of these or a Daniel Defense m4 for my first battle rifle.

Z-Michigan
January 27, 2012, 01:40 PM
I had one several years ago. In terms of accurately copying the HK design, they are very good. (They have original HK tooling, in case you didn't know.) I just don't happen to like the HK design much and ended up selling it. That's another topic, I suppose.

If you don't own any military-style rifles, an AR/M4 clone like a Daniel Defense will be far more versatile, reliable, and easier to service and upgrade than almost anything else.

Hanzo581
January 27, 2012, 01:59 PM
If you don't own any military-style rifles, an AR/M4 clone like a Daniel Defense will be far more versatile, reliable, and easier to service and upgrade than almost anything else.

You forgot "much cheaper to shoot/practice with".

Ian Johnson
January 27, 2012, 05:55 PM
yeah I do own military rifles lol but they are of a much older variety(mosin, sweede mauser) but this was gonna be my first black rifle and the ar does make more since, plus being a broke college student it REALLY makes sense, but I liked the ptr cause it was different, its definately on my list but might not be what I get next

GCMkc
January 27, 2012, 06:18 PM
I own a PTR-91 (16" bbl variant) and can say that it is a beautifully made rifle. All of the welds looks good, parts fit tight, action is fluid, and it has had zero malfunctions. I shoot steel case and brass case stuff through it without hiccup. Some accessories are super cheap and some are outrageously expensive (ze German parts). I've had zero experience with a real HK91 but have heard that the PTR's compare most nicely.

C93 on the left, PTR-91 on the right

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7748/imag0347jb.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/809/imag0347jb.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

gotboostvr
January 27, 2012, 06:30 PM
You could always look at the CETME, sights aren't as nice and you might have to pick over a bad one or two, but they're still very nice rifles.

My shooting buddy has one, threw a claw mount and a cheap 3x9 on it and we were shooting some pretty small groups with it .

seasmoke
January 28, 2012, 10:58 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32860320@N08/6776467877/The PTR's are well made firearms. Also check out Vector. The CETME/G3 platform are very reliable and tons of fun to shoot. If your a re-loader, they are not your best choice. My CETME throws brass like a monkey flings poo, 45ft:what: If going for a PTR91, stick with the GI model.
These guys have a nice selection: http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/category.aspx?cid=93

dprice3844444
January 28, 2012, 11:01 AM
they also make a pistol version in 308 and 762x39

bozzman3
January 28, 2012, 08:01 PM
Ptr is a great fun rifle.I own A PT and a C93. I would not recommend it as a first battle rifle.The Daniel defense is a great first battle rifle.Cheap to shoot ,high quality and more bells and whistles to add on if you like.

seasmoke
January 28, 2012, 08:40 PM
Does Daniel Defense make a Battle Rifle? Don't see one there, just poodle shooters and mall ninja stuff.

Z-Michigan
January 28, 2012, 08:58 PM
FYI, to many people "battle rifle" always means a rifle firing a full-powered, as in .308 or larger, cartridge (although I can't think of any battle rifle offered in .30-06, 7.62x54R or any other cartridge other than .308 / 7.62x51mm NATO), and a design that was never successful as a fully-auto rifle even if it was offered that way (like the FAL or G3). Obviously a lot of people newer to guns are using "battle rifle" as just any military-style semiauto.

Eric M
January 28, 2012, 09:05 PM
(although I can't think of any battle rifle offered in .30-06, 7.62x54R or any other cartridge other than .308 / 7.62x51mm NATO)
M1 Garand is .30-06.

FWIW OP, I got to fondle my buddy's PTR-91 and it seemed like a nice rifle.

seasmoke
January 28, 2012, 09:08 PM
Yep, G3 no good at FA. To much muzzle rise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr14_2Z2m0A

Or maybe it's just the design...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owtUaocuKCo&feature=related

Z-Michigan
January 28, 2012, 09:24 PM
M1 Garand is .30-06.

I've never heard the Garand classed as a battle rifle before. The definition is fuzzy but always seems to include a detachable box magazine.

The SVT-40 is the only WWII era rifle I can think of that comes close to the definition. But all I've seen is that the class is fairly limited to the FAL, G3, M14, and original AR-10.

Eric M
January 28, 2012, 10:50 PM
Hm, my definition is a semi-automatic/select fire rifle that shoots a full sized rifle cartridge. I didn't know it required a detachable magazine.

bozzman3
January 29, 2012, 11:01 AM
Sooo...... A Ar type rifle is not considered a battle rifle?

seasmoke
January 29, 2012, 01:19 PM
Nope.

snakeman
January 29, 2012, 01:33 PM
Better off with an ar10 it will be more accurate anyway.

RhinoDefense
January 29, 2012, 01:37 PM
The M16/AR15 is a battle rifle.

The AR10 type will be more accurate and be easier on brass than the G3 clones like the CETME and the PTR91. If you shoot only commercial ammunition, it's not much of an issue with brass life.

Z-Michigan
January 29, 2012, 02:30 PM
Sooo...... A Ar type rifle is not considered a battle rifle?

Not by most people. (Rhino apparently disagrees.) It's not a precise or official term anyway so it hardly matters.

Voltia
January 29, 2012, 02:33 PM
Sorry, Rhino, that is not true.

Here are some terms:
Full power rifle cartridge: .308, 30-06, 7.62x54R, 45-70, and others
Intermediate power rifle cartridge: 7.62x39, 5.56x45, and the Russian one designed to compete with it.
Pistol cartridge: I hope I don't have to define that one for people here.

Machine gun: Shoots a full power rifle cartridge via a belt. Fully automatic, may have other modes. M2, M60, etc.

Sub-machine gun: Shoots a pistol cartridge in select fire, single shot, full auto, sometimes burst. HK MP5, Thompson, the Greasgun, Uzi, etc.

Assault rifle: Shoots an intermediate cartridge in select fire, single shot, sometimes
full auto, sometimes burst. The STG44 German Sturmgewehr "storm or ASSAULT rifle" was the first, and it was literally name Assault Rifle. The M16 and AK47 and variants are assault rifles.

Battle rifle, sometimes Main Battle Rifle. Shoots a full power cartridge in some form of fire. I say some form because main battle rifles were bolt action in the first world war, when all they had were springfields, and semi-auto in the second. However, it is usually meant to be at least semi-auto. The M1 Garand is the original in most regards. The M14, FAL, G3, are typical battle rifles.

Assault rifles have shorter barrels, and shoot smaller cartridges than battle rifles. SMGs have still shorter barrels and shoot pistol rounds.

So, to split tacks, in my opinion, the AR10 is a battle rifle, the AR15 is an assault rifle, albeit both are semi-auto versions of the Real McCoys.

PDXguy
January 29, 2012, 02:57 PM
I've had some ammo sensitivity with my PTR-91. My PTR has expensive tastes when it come to ammo. I've gone through several brands and did some tests and the results are here http://www.gothamsurvival.com/?p=1130.

The PTR I have is very accurate, finicky with types of ammo, a bit heavy and a whole lot of fun to shoot. Here is a pic of my PTR.

http://www.gothamsurvival.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ptr_91_scope.jpg

RhinoDefense
January 29, 2012, 04:54 PM
Voltia, define "power" in cartridges. I've been around the civilian and military firearms and ammunition sectors most of my life and have never seen this used in either.

boricua9mm
January 29, 2012, 04:54 PM
Does Daniel Defense make a Battle Rifle? Don't see one there, just poodle shooters and mall ninja stuff.

Mall Ninja stuff? Really? Maybe you didn't know, but Daniel Defense has done a great job to establish themselves as a high quality AR builder, doing a significant amount of real-deal manufacturing and R&D in-house, whereas most other companies are simply spanning stuff together and selling it for the same price. When you consider the fact that their free-floating rail systems with bank vault lockups also decrease weight, you're talking about products that are engineered and built for people that actually carry and use a rifle rather than lug it out to the range for a shuck-n-jive fest. When you consider the fact that their products are welcomed additions on the M4A1 and Mk18 project, the words "Mall Ninja" really seem far off base.
_________________________________

On the topic of JLD rifles, they are indeed built on HK tooling, but that in itself is not an absolute assurance of quality. There are many JLD rifles out there with barrels that will only feed and fire Federal American Eagle ammo. The HK community jokingly refers to them as being chambered in AE.

As someone who regularly shoots HK pattern rifles, I will be the first to say that for the needs of the majority of North Americans, a quality manufacture AR15 outpaces the roller-locked rifles from the perspectives of ergonomics, speed, sustainability and modularity (although one can do a lot to custom tailor an HK type rifle). If you don't have a nice AR yet, get one of those first.

Voltia
January 29, 2012, 11:32 PM
Rhino, I don't need to do that. You should understand what it means.

To give you the short version: an assault rifle shoots an intermediate rifle round and a battle rifle shoots a full sized rifle round. If you can't figure it out from there, I can't help you. In fact, since I was trying to inform you, and you seem like you want an argument, I'm done with this one.

dom1104
January 29, 2012, 11:54 PM
The definition of "battle rifle" is a simple one.

Its a word mumbled by ar15/ak47 haters as they leave the range, realizing they just blew 300 dollars in ammo shooting at paper 100 yards away.

MistWolf
January 29, 2012, 11:55 PM
Sorry, Rhino, that is not true.

Here are some terms:
Full power rifle cartridge: .308, 30-06, 7.62x54R, 45-70, and others
Intermediate power rifle cartridge: 7.62x39, 5.56x45, and the Russian one designed to compete with it.
Pistol cartridge: I hope I don't have to define that one for people here.

Machine gun: Shoots a full power rifle cartridge via a belt. Fully automatic, may have other modes. M2, M60, etc.

Sub-machine gun: Shoots a pistol cartridge in select fire, single shot, full auto, sometimes burst. HK MP5, Thompson, the Greasgun, Uzi, etc.

Assault rifle: Shoots an intermediate cartridge in select fire, single shot, sometimes
full auto, sometimes burst. The STG44 German Sturmgewehr "storm or ASSAULT rifle" was the first, and it was literally name Assault Rifle. The M16 and AK47 and variants are assault rifles.

Battle rifle, sometimes Main Battle Rifle. Shoots a full power cartridge in some form of fire. I say some form because main battle rifles were bolt action in the first world war, when all they had were springfields, and semi-auto in the second. However, it is usually meant to be at least semi-auto. The M1 Garand is the original in most regards. The M14, FAL, G3, are typical battle rifles.

Assault rifles have shorter barrels, and shoot smaller cartridges than battle rifles. SMGs have still shorter barrels and shoot pistol rounds.

So, to split tacks, in my opinion, the AR10 is a battle rifle, the AR15 is an assault rifle, albeit both are semi-auto versions of the Real McCoys.

Voltia pretty much nailed it on the head. I would add that a true assault rifle is capable of select fire. Such calibers as the 8mm Mauser, 303 British, 30-06, 7.62x51 plus a few others are defined as "full power calibers". Calibers such as the 7.92 Kurz, 7.62x39, and the 5.56 are classed as "intermediate power calibers". Growing up, my father had a full library of firearms reference books and that's how they all classified the above rounds and the rifles that used them

Earlsbud
January 30, 2012, 12:06 AM
Dual 30 round mags clamped together make for a heavy rifle, but the extra weight helps tame muzzle rise. There are better choices that are easier to carry if you're trying to cover ground quickly.

Davek1977
January 30, 2012, 05:57 AM
I've been around the civilian and military firearms and ammunition sectors most of my life and have never seen this used in either. I too have been raised around firearms, and Voltia's definitions match everything as I understood it growing up. By most people's definitions, the AR-15 is an assault rife, not a "battle rifle". There IS a difference

Southern Deputy
March 7, 2012, 11:05 PM
I just traded a DPMS AP4 to acquire my new PTR32. I know its a caliber change but ammo$$$ the way it is 7.62X39 is way easier on the wallet than the .308. The PTR-32 is in a word PERFECT. Much more powerful than a .556 with <2 MOA @ 100 yards. Oh and 1 thing that I could not have said about the AP4 no FTF or FTE 600 rounds of Tula steel case ammo. This is my go to "Zombie Apocalypse" gun

Driftertank
March 8, 2012, 08:54 PM
Love my PTR-91F. Have handled real HK's too. My gun's fit & finish seem to be at least on par with the "real thing."

Most TC contract barrels (AW-serial numbers) have shallow chamber flutes. Mine is one of them. Causes extraction issues with certain ammo types ("tar-sealed," most foreign milsurp) which bothered me originally, but i found that it has no problem with cheap steel cased ammo.

It's very reliable and accurate with decent ammo; shot 2.25" 100yd 5-shot group with irons couple weeks ago. Walmart UMC 150gr FMJ. I suspect once i fit a scope and switch to match ammo it'll be a 1MOA rifle. And that barrel doesn't string when it gets hot.

If you reload, be sure to get an ejection port buffer, or it will destroy brass. I also have a Bill Springfield trigger pack. Makes a BIG difference.

Z-Michigan
March 8, 2012, 09:57 PM
On the topic of JLD rifles, they are indeed built on HK tooling, but that in itself is not an absolute assurance of quality. There are many JLD rifles out there with barrels that will only feed and fire Federal American Eagle ammo. The HK community jokingly refers to them as being chambered in AE.

My PTR seemed well made and functioned fine with Brown Bear and DAG surplus. I can't remember if I ever fed it any good stuff. But...

As someone who regularly shoots HK pattern rifles, I will be the first to say that for the needs of the majority of North Americans, a quality manufacture AR15 outpaces the roller-locked rifles from the perspectives of ergonomics, speed, sustainability and modularity (although one can do a lot to custom tailor an HK type rifle). If you don't have a nice AR yet, get one of those first.

I traded my PTR because apart from being reliable it was a disaster in all other ways. The recoil was brutal, close to a 12ga - I understand that this is not typical, but that was my experience. I didn't like the sights. The ergonomics and charging handle location didn't work for me even though I'm 6' tall with a 36" sleeve length. I got a relatively good trigger by PTR/HK91 standards but it was still comparable to the worst AR triggers, which in turn are among the worst common rifle triggers. Mag changes were awkward with the clumsy pushbutton release that HK never intended (created to meet ATF requirements, look it up). Reassembly of the bolt carrier was difficult and frustrating. Overall I decided it had nothing going for it apart from looks. You are basically paying FAL or high-end AR15 money for a gun that compares to an AK, except the AK actually has better ergonomics and costs 1/3-1/2 as much to shoot. The FAL is in a different class when it comes to ergonomics, durability, and engineering.

Also, most of my spent brass was last seen passing the orbit of Saturn, but I understand that is considered a feature rather than a defect.

vaupet
March 9, 2012, 12:52 AM
Do not forget the StG 57, as a battle rifle

Onmilo
March 9, 2012, 01:09 AM
I have owned my PTR-91 since they were first introduced.
It has shallow flutes as indicated by the marks on the fired cases but shoots all commercial loads up to 180 grain, good quality surplus,(It LOVES Portugese mil-surp), and steel case ammo with no problems.
The rifle is also extremely accurate, more so than original G3 rifles and H&K commercial 91 rifles.

The H&K/PTR are roller locked blowback actions and will handle heavier loads without issue such as caused shooting commercial stuff in a non adjustable gas regulated battle rifle.

Having owned and shot numerous 7.62X51 rifles over the years I now own but five,
Three M1As
A rebarreled Match Grade M1 Garand
& my PTR91

"Battle Rifle" indicates a weapon firing full power ammunition
FN49
K98
M1 Garand
M14
H&K G3
AR10
Dragunov
SVT38 & 40
on and on are "Battle Rifles"

"Assault Rifles" are chambered for intermediate cartridges
M16
M4
AK47/AKM
AK74
CZ-52 & 57
SKS
StG90
all of these weapons fall under the term "assault rifle"

boricua9mm
March 9, 2012, 08:42 AM
I traded my PTR because apart from being reliable it was a disaster in all other ways. The recoil was brutal, close to a 12ga - I understand that this is not typical, but that was my experience. I didn't like the sights. The ergonomics and charging handle location didn't work for me even though I'm 6' tall with a 36" sleeve length. I got a relatively good trigger by PTR/HK91 standards but it was still comparable to the worst AR triggers, which in turn are among the worst common rifle triggers. Mag changes were awkward with the clumsy pushbutton release that HK never intended (created to meet ATF requirements, look it up). Reassembly of the bolt carrier was difficult and frustrating. Overall I decided it had nothing going for it apart from looks. You are basically paying FAL or high-end AR15 money for a gun that compares to an AK, except the AK actually has better ergonomics and costs 1/3-1/2 as much to shoot. The FAL is in a different class when it comes to ergonomics, durability, and engineering.

Interesting observations. HK rifles seem to be a love 'em or hate 'em affair, with very few sitting on the "Meh" team. I actually love HK diopter sights. They are much more effective for me than AR irons. My eyes focus extremely well when using them and the hooded front sight always made more sense to me than having two similar height "ears" off to the sides. The selector is workable for me, and if the rifle is carried, the stock is to rest outside of the shooters forearm to allow better access to the selector (with non-Germanic thumbs). The mag release isn't as fast or convenient as an AR in either paddle or push-button form, but it comes from a riflecraft style that retains the magazines rather than drop & forget. The folding charging handle leaves a lot to be desired. It is unfortunate that the camming action is needed to unlock the rollers on the larger rifles; an MP5 charging handle would eliminate a lot of user complaints in this area, but it just isn't feasible from the engineering standpoint. Some folks proclaim that you can just slide your palm along the folding charging handle and everything just happens, but that is far from the truth. Unfolding it and getting the leverage to cycle the bolt carrier is much more difficult than it is on the MP5.

HK rifles can be a bit of a love affair, but as much I love owning and shooting roller-locked HKs & clones, my grab and go rifle is a Lightweight Daniel Defense build.

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