Is a 100yd indoor test meaningful?


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tvtv
January 26, 2012, 03:17 PM
I moved from a .223 LRPV 9 twist to a Savage .223 F/TR 7 twist to shoot heavier bullets at longer ranges. IT DOESN'T. In fact, it shoots 69 gr bullets better than anything heavier. I sent it back to Savage and got it back with a ".7 target" with a flier which made it more like a barely moa test from their indoor 100 yrd range.

My question is this: how can a 100 yrd indoor test range with a 69gn bullet be a valid test for a gun that is made to shoot 200-600 yds with bullets that range from 69 (at the low end) to 85 gn?

I called them and they said the 100yd is all we have.

Lastly, if a gun shoots ok at a 100 with a light bullet does that mean it should shoot indoors as well at 200-600 (if there was such a thing) with the right load?

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Teachu2
January 26, 2012, 03:40 PM
Lastly, if a gun shoots ok at a 100 with a light bullet does that mean it should shoot indoors as well at 200-600 (if there was such a thing) with the right load?
Never had a 200-600 indoor shot....

Certaindeaf
January 26, 2012, 04:04 PM
I think Harry Pope found 30' or so meaningful.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/08/history-harry-pope.html

LoonWulf
January 26, 2012, 04:27 PM
Generally, most of the time, you can extrapolate accuracy from 100yds and out.
I have had a couple guns, and loads, that tend to shoot the same size groups at 100-200yds, but from 300 and out expected grouping is pretty constant. Now that might just be me holding the gun differently, but id guess that the bullets were "going to sleep" as its called around 150yds. The only loads that showed this were bullets a little light in the spectrum driven pretty damn fast. (140 7mm at 3250, and 150 .308 at 3300)

Lovesbeer99
January 26, 2012, 06:47 PM
Absolutely nothing wrong with 100 yard test but I have found that not all guns shoot consistant MOA at all distances. For instance your gun might shoot sub MOA out to 400 yards but then shoot just above MOA at 600 yards or longer. There are many factors but it happens. But still 100 yards is better than 25 or 50 yards.

Also, not all barrels shoot the same. A 7" twist does not gaurentee that your paticular gun will shoot 77gr bullets better than 69g bullets. You need to test it with various rounds to see. Maybe the heavier bullets will work better with less powder or more powder. Maybe you need to seat them way out and load manually. Maybe even try a different brand of bullet like Berger, or Hornady.

Savage makes a good product, you might just have to spend more time with your guns.

HKGuns
January 26, 2012, 07:17 PM
100 yards is absolutely valid. There are a lot of folks who don't have access to anything longer until they get out in the woods. Get up from the TV and shoot it. :)

rule303
January 26, 2012, 08:24 PM
I have seen it happen but cant explain it, but some long boat tailed bullets seem ho-hum at 100 or 200 yds, then settle down and shoot great at longer distance.

jerkface11
January 26, 2012, 08:29 PM
My 264 winmag shoots the same size group at 200 as it does at 100. So yeah I'd say it should tell you something.

Zak Smith
January 26, 2012, 09:17 PM
100 yards is the baseline distance typically used to evaluate accuracy. It is far enough to make accuracy issues show up but not so far that environmental factors dominate.

GJgo
January 26, 2012, 09:57 PM
For years I used 100yds to develop my handloads. Over that time I saw things that led me to question the common wisdom, and thus I started using 200 yds when it came time to really dial in a best load. Since switching I've been happier overall with my final loads across a variety of ranges. YMMV...

tvtv
January 27, 2012, 04:38 AM
I think this season I will do my load development at 200, not 100. Thanks.

41 Mag
January 27, 2012, 05:07 AM
I generally use 100yds to get close on my load development, but when it comes to outright accuracy I stretch it out as far as I can.

I use 200yds as my baseline overall accuracy range, but as has been mentioned you will find sometimes you will have a load that shoots great at 100 and goes out the window further out, then have one that is so so at 100 but tighten up out a bit further. This is also why folks try to use the OCW method of load development at further ranges than 100yds, as it shows a better overall picture of what the load is doing.

When I work up a load in most of my rifles I expect them to shoot to a 400yd maximum range. Some I DO shoot further but not as often. When I have a load which shoots at or around an inch at 200yds I then stretch it out and test for wider variations. I found that with my daughters 6.5x55, the 140gr A-Max actually corkscrews as it gets further out. We had a load which shot within 2" at 200, but at 250 the zero changed to 3 o'clock and spread to around 4", and at 300 it was wider yet and hit at 6 o'clock. Bringing it back to 100 we found it hitting over at 9 o'clock of the bull.

Bottom line is, if your looking to shoot to 600yds, you need to know what the load is doing in between. Start at 200 minimum if you can and go from there.

Art Eatman
January 27, 2012, 11:02 AM
I've been setting up my rifles via a 100-yard range since 1950. Bambi kept going flop, on out to 350 and once at 450. Prairie dogs out to 300.

So about fifteen years ago I built a 500-yard range at the house. I found that my rifle which shot just under one MOA at 100 yards did the same at 500.

Which puts me back into Alfred E. Neuman mode.

GJgo
January 27, 2012, 11:59 AM
41 Mag, not to get sidetracked but my 6.5x55 also corkscrewed 140 Amax & 130gr TSX at longer ranges even though they shot under an inch at 100. After I switched my load development to 200 I discovered that the answer was actually to slow it down a little, and it tightened right up. My Swede can shoot fast but it does't like to. Subsequently I corkscrewed a 140 Amax into a mule deer at 420yds this fall.. :D

Sniper66
January 27, 2012, 04:19 PM
For those of you who are zeroing at 200 vs. 100, are you shooting mostly targets or are you shooting live targets like prairie dogs? It makes some sense to me to zero at 200 and adjust my loads accordingly. If you zero at 200 with say a .223, whetre does it shoot at 100? this might mean that I have to start all over!! Oh well, means I have to shoot up the 2,000-3,000 rounds I have load and start experimenting with new loads.

Canuck-IL
January 27, 2012, 04:56 PM
That's what a ballistic calculator is for (among other things)
http://www.jbmballistics.com/ballistics/calculators/calculators.shtml
/Bryan

d2wing
January 27, 2012, 05:45 PM
In the Army we first sighted in at 25 meters. That was right on at 100 meters if I recall correctly. With scoped guns that doesn't work as well depending on scope height and other factors.

Pete D.
January 27, 2012, 06:04 PM
Everyone agreeing - all? Almost? Not a bad thing at all.
The 100 yard indoor test, properly done (like any test) is more valuable than an outdoor test as it eliminates the outdoor variables of changing light, wind and temperature conditions. It tells you that if your rifle shoots differently outdoors, it ain't the fault of the gun but an effect of something else.
Pete

bluetopper
January 27, 2012, 06:10 PM
Are some of you trying to tell me that a load that shoots the best at 100yds might not be the best at 200yds? I can't see it.

Art Eatman
January 27, 2012, 08:03 PM
Sniper66, my range is set up with backstops at 100 and 500 yards. As far as sighting in my hunting rifles, I always zero for about 200 yards. Typically, that's about two inches high at 100. Maybe 1.5 high for a Swift. Most cartridges will then run five to six inches low at 300, give or take an inch. .223 through '06, they're all pretty close.

Claude Clay
January 27, 2012, 08:18 PM
some bullets, different weights out of my K-31 stabilize past 200 yards.
understandable when you remember that the rifle is zeroed at 300 meters.


100 is a convenient distance but may not be correct in all situations.

BSA1
January 27, 2012, 08:49 PM
How do you whether you are testing the gun and ammo or your ability to hold the gun steady enough?

Zak Smith
January 27, 2012, 08:52 PM
For those of you who are zeroing at 200 vs. 100, are you shooting mostly targets
Don't mix up the original question vs. where the primary zero on the scope is set up.

Vern Humphrey
January 27, 2012, 09:34 PM
Yes, indoor range tests are meaningful -- because they measure something close to pure accuracy, not how well the shooter dopes the wind.

A 100 yard test is the standard -- simply because shooting at any longer range will simply duplicate the results when expressed in MOA.

FlyinBryan
January 27, 2012, 09:45 PM
o.p.,,,,, yes. its plenty meaningful.

My 264 winmag shoots the same size group at 200 as it does at 100. So yeah I'd say it should tell you something.
they cease spreading at 100yds?

GJgo
January 27, 2012, 09:47 PM
Are some of you trying to tell me that a load that shoots the best at 100yds might not be the best at 200yds? I can't see it.
Parisite, that's exactly what I'm saying, well, more or less. Over the years I've seen it happen with a handful of rifles I've loaded for. Not all, but some- they each have their own personality. For example, in this situation I can get an awesome load at 100 that is OK at 200 & blows up at 300+. If however I tweak the load to be optimal at 200 or 300 it tends to hold at 300+. I tend to see this more with secant ogive bullets than I do with tangent ogive bullets, but not exclusively.

I shoot mostly targets, but also game.

jerkface11
January 27, 2012, 09:50 PM
they cease spreading at 100yds?

I think operator error plays a role. But my 200 yard groups aren't noticeably larger than the 100 yard groups.

igousigloo
January 27, 2012, 09:59 PM
In my experience a rifle with a fast twist barrel has not stabilized at 100 or 200 yards. Sometimes you need 400 yds to see it settle down. Might be why most of your benchrest shooters use 16 to 18 twist barrels at 100 and 200 yards.

Vern Humphrey
January 27, 2012, 10:01 PM
Quote:
My 264 winmag shoots the same size group at 200 as it does at 100. So yeah I'd say it should tell you something.
they cease spreading at 100yds?

Most likely his scope is parallax adjusted for 200 yards, which means there is some aiming error at 100 yards, but not at 200.

FlyinBryan
January 27, 2012, 10:45 PM
I think operator error plays a role. But my 200 yard groups aren't noticeably larger than the 100 yard groups.
it never even crossed my (narrow) mind but i bet what vern says below could make that entirely plausible as well.
Most likely his scope is parallax adjusted for 200 yards, which means there is some aiming error at 100 yards, but not at 200.

FlyinBryan
January 27, 2012, 10:48 PM
case in point above:
times when i feel most poised to give someone a lesson or advice on a subject is most often when unexpectedly the tables are turned and i become student.

thump_rrr
January 28, 2012, 06:45 AM
My question is for the OP.

Do you reload or are you using store bought ammo?
I have a Savage 10BA (.308) that shoots below 0.5 MOA when I do my part using my reloads.
I've seen a few others shoot the same model rifle in the 1.25 MOA range with store bought ammo.

If Savage was able to get 0.7" with whatever their standard test ammo is you should be able to improve on that with meticulous reloading.
When I say meticulous reloading I'm talking about using top shelf components and meticulous brass preparation techniques to get the most uniform ammunition.
There are also articles on the net on how fine tuning the torque of your action screws can improve group size.

GJgo
January 28, 2012, 09:48 AM
I can see scope parallax explaining some of it, now that I think about it the two worst offenders I had were wearing hunting scopes that are not parallax adjustable. However, that doesn't explain why I could modify the load & improve the results?

Certaindeaf
January 28, 2012, 02:51 PM
This is really what I wanted to post. Just because. My failure and fix. Read it and read it now! Classic.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/08/secret-of-old-master.html

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