The Clinch Pick from Shivworks, grapplers beware.


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rEVOLVEr VII
January 27, 2012, 05:23 AM
Cool little knife from Shivworks, this badboy is nasty and would appear to get the job done if your jumped and taken to the ground by a much stronger opponent. I don't carry a knife as my weapon of choice but I might just start now. Imagine how fast one would be able to unsheath the pick from the cross draw position.

http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/shivworks.htm

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Yo Mama
January 27, 2012, 10:10 AM
They are much smaller than I thought based on the pictures.

Kabar has the TDI that you also may want to eyeball.

conw
January 27, 2012, 02:13 PM
The Clinch Pick is probably the best knife in its class IMO. However for the more budget minded the TDI is awesome (although it doesn't offer the reverse grip shearing type technique). Push daggers are also a good choice to fill this role.

I also really like Ban Tang's Stupid Sharp knives. You probably won't find a clinch pick as the next planned production run was postponed due to supplier issues. BT will hook you up with a reasonably priced knife and trainer for about $200-220.

Atomwalks
January 27, 2012, 06:27 PM
I really like Ka-bar's BESH wedge. the blade grind is inverted and has knurling for your thumb. runs about $20.

conw
January 27, 2012, 09:38 PM
Doesn't look bad but what's the deal with the back edge? Is that some kind of weird serration?

The "BESH wedge" design (not the ka-bar iteration specifically) seems to me to be an overhyped solution looking for a problem but I have to say the ergos and sheath don't look half bad for the cost.

rEVOLVEr VII
January 28, 2012, 12:34 PM
Doesn't look bad but what's the deal with the back edge? Is that some kind of weird serration?

The "BESH wedge" design (not the ka-bar iteration specifically) seems to me to be an overhyped solution looking for a problem but I have to say the ergos and sheath don't look half bad for the cost.

Not sure whats the deal with the back edge, kind've a pointless addition if you ask me but I've gotta agree, to many problems seem to be associated with this knife.

For one I don't believe a thrusting technique would be appropriate here considering the back edge of the blade isn't sharp enough to cut skin. And I wouldn't trust hacking and slashing a BG due to the overall length of the blade, your asking for trouble there.

And from doing some research I've discovered that the steel the knife is made from is actually very cheap and easily wore down if you sharpen the blade. So I'll have to pass on this one.

I also really like Ban Tang's Stupid Sharp knives. You probably won't find a clinch pick as the next planned production run was postponed due to supplier issues. BT will hook you up with a reasonably priced knife and trainer for about $200-220.

I looked into BT knives and I like what I see, I find the Pikal knife very interesting with the curved back, bad news there for a BG's gut. Your right about finding a Pick knife for sale online, I had no luck..

conw
January 28, 2012, 06:12 PM
I find the Pikal knife very interesting with the curved back, bad news there for a BG's gut

Just a small point here, the lower frontal torso AKA abdominal area is probably a poor target for your knife. Liver...maybe...but the kidneys are a surer bet at that range, and if you open up the range a small amount, you have a lot of targets available that are better.

Dogbite
January 31, 2012, 02:47 PM
I carry some cool little knives too, check out Cold Steels little Super Edge. I have been carrying it for some time. You can also hang it from the neck, or the belt--its like one once--cuts like crazy!

hso
January 31, 2012, 03:40 PM
For anyone having trouble visualizing the grip for the inverted edge Clinch Pick
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJvZpe9SDljixQsa6ktxzO6UIFBVesQNYuG22G1RhHS_-vfr2F4g

Doesn't look bad but what's the deal with the back edge? Believe it or not, that's a nail file on the Besh BOGA.

Also, the Besh BOGA is a very very small knife and hacking isn't going to be part of the use. BOGA stands for Back Off Get Away and the knife was designed to be small enough to conceal and wear conveniently every minute of every day and to be used to get someone off you. The tip is the Besh Wedge part and is radically different than what we're used to thinking about for a knife tip. It penetrates VERY well (surprised me very much when Brent showed it to me), but it is small and is only intended to back someone off of you in a pinch instead of being used as a utility knife that you have to be concerned about keeping/staying sharp.

conw
January 31, 2012, 04:06 PM
Dogbite, I ordered a few Super Edges since they're so cheap and really wasn't impressed for anything other than a light duty utility knife.

conw
January 31, 2012, 04:07 PM
hso if the Besh BOGA had the choil on the other side, it would be pretty perfect in a clinch pick type role. As is I still think it's a neat little fixed blade for the purpose, although I haven't handled one. Why it has a nail file I can't imagine though.

Looks like someone finally got it right for $20 - good sheath (am I wrong?), good size, good ergos.

Edit: I see the clip can't be moved on the sheath, bummer

hso
January 31, 2012, 07:23 PM
Wellll, he didn't design it for p'kal although he might be persuaded to do a reverse edge version. I'm skeptical the grip is long enough, though.

Sheaths on inexpensive fixed blades tend to have "limitations" and having a custom kydex made is a small additional cost.

hso
January 31, 2012, 07:28 PM
http://cdn1.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/bgprod/DBA-897.jpg

Drill the center out of those rivets, tap them out and flip the metal clip to the opposite side and re-rivet or use screw fasteners. OR simply use paracord to make the X-Box pattern and use it like a belt loop.

Deltaboy
February 3, 2012, 10:28 PM
COOL!!!!

aaronu
February 4, 2012, 02:46 PM
Very cool. Anyone know where to find Shivworks blades and DVDs? Couldn't find any place that had them in stock.

conw
February 5, 2012, 01:23 AM
Blades are temporarily out of production.

Here is the best standalone DVD IMO:
http://www.moaarmory.com/details.php?prodId=35

Fighting handgun is also GREAT though.

conw
February 5, 2012, 01:27 AM
Also Craig (owner) runs a great forum at www.totalprotectioninteractive.com

Deltaboy
February 6, 2012, 10:16 PM
Looks like a good tite spot get of tool!

aaronu
February 6, 2012, 11:27 PM
Very cool. Thanks for the info.

Rexster
February 8, 2012, 05:40 AM
Inspired by a prototype Disciple/Clinch Pick demo that SouthNarc gave at a long-ago Blade Show, I carried a Spyderco Ronin in the manner of a Clinch Pick, until the real things were released for sale. Of course, Ronins are not made anymore, either, but are not terribly rare on the used online auction market.

conw
February 8, 2012, 04:21 PM
The ronin is awesome in conventional grip...but are you carrying it for Forward Grip Edge Up? It could work but seems awkward.

Nematocyst
July 10, 2012, 01:13 PM
MODERATOR NOTE: The following posts resulted from posts moved from another thread.
***

My paragraph below gets at the gist of this one.

For the record, since I posted these a couple of days ago, I've revisited neck knives (with Hso's help), and my current top pick would be a Kabar Eskabar, (http://www.knifecenter.com/item/KABK14/KA-BAR-ESEE-BK14-Becker-Eskabar-Knife-3-14-inch-1095-Cro-Van-Carbon-Steel-Blade) which is getting excellent reviews everywhere I look. (It's a hybrid or chimera with the blade of a Becker Necker and the handle of an ESEE Izula.)

However, as you'll see below, John Shirley stirred to pot with news of a new knife that he's involved in the design of, and last night, Conwict stirred the pot even more by raising the issue of Shivworks Cinch Pick.

Admittedly, Eskabar and Cinch Pick fill different niches. I'm looking for more of an EDC blade that can double as a SD knife. My current EDC is a Spyderco Manix 2, but I'm strongly considering moving to something like an Eskabar, in part due to faster deployment for ... any kind of task.

We pick up the action, a little out of context ... :)

_____________

^ Good point. My thoughts exactly.

Maybe even more than one form of backup. E.g., knife and kubotan.

I carry both (thanks to you, Conwict, again, for the kubotan), but my current EDC knife is a folder (Manix 2).

I'm strongly considering a small belt-mounted fixed blade with 3" or so blade. Looking at many options right now. After much reading and reflecting (including how I train with my kubotan), I would add a Disciple in a heartbeat if they were more available and I had the cash, but they ain't and I don't. :(

JShirley
July 10, 2012, 01:31 PM
Shucks, Nem. Sam and I are working on some designs that would probably fit the bill. By the time they're ready, you might have the money, too! :D

Nematocyst
July 10, 2012, 02:00 PM
John, that's an exciting and tantalizing bit of news! :cool:

(And yep, I'm launching a new professional project with about 20 others
that promises to substantially improve my cash flow by sometime in fall.)

JShirley
July 10, 2012, 02:39 PM
Remind me when I get back, if they haven't been rolled out yet. :)

Nematocyst
July 10, 2012, 02:42 PM
When will you get 'back' (from where ever you are going)?

Do you guys have a goal (time wise) for rollout? Process for announcement? Thread in this board, perhaps?

Bobson
July 10, 2012, 04:19 PM
Think he means back from the sandbox, Nematocyst.

hso
July 10, 2012, 04:30 PM
The land of moon dust, Afghanistan.

Nematocyst
July 10, 2012, 05:51 PM
Ah, of course. Thanks.
___

PS: I hope as a highly paid consultant this time. ;)

hso
July 11, 2012, 12:35 AM
In uniform, like last time.

conw
July 11, 2012, 02:00 AM
I'm strongly considering a small belt-mounted fixed blade with 3" or so blade. Looking at many options right now. After much reading and reflecting (including how I train with my kubotan), I would add a Disciple in a heartbeat if they were more available and I had the cash, but they ain't and I don't

The clinch pick is going to be rereleased in Sandvik 13c27 (or 26) made in China for a sub-$100 price, $150 packaged with a trainer, both with tek-loks.

Southnarc announced this recently.

He also licensed Ban Tang to make custom clinch picks, which I'd like to happily claim some small part in for showing SN a BT knife. They're exquisite.

I'm not hatin' on the Disciple but there's a reason the CP is being re-made and is in higher demand. It's just the smallest viable defensive knife system IMO. Like we discussed the size of a knife (namely the blade depth in sheath) determines the draw length, therefore there's a glass ceiling on "usefulness" that IMO is about 3.5" for a realistic defensive knife.

If you can't move your elbow greater than the length of the blade your knife's staying in its sheath.

Ban Pikal knife and original Clinch Pick (not the Chi-pick or Ban version) shown below. Not my pic,. I believe the far left knife is a "Bloodshark"

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/shawn235711/IMAG0998.jpg

Nematocyst
July 11, 2012, 05:03 AM
Well, yes, that ^ makes a lot of sense.

So, question: CP is RGEO, right?

The reason I'm loving the D is it's RGEI.

I'd like a CP that's RGEI.
_____

Added by edit after some reflection.

But for that price with a trainer,
I'll buy one regardless.

Bobson
July 11, 2012, 12:17 PM
Thanks, HSO. Following the other thread lead me to looking into the Clinch Pick and the Kabar TDI in more detail (and actually, just found this thread for the first time yesterday, using the search feature for the clinch pick). I was able to go out and handle the TDI pretty extensively the other day. Guy behind the counter let me put it on my belt (weak side) and randomly draw it a few dozen times throughout a 20-minute or so conversation, and I walked away without it, but extremely impressed and absolutely re-evaluating my recent thoughts on a new knife for the defense role.

The question that comes to mind for me, is which type of attack more quickly ends a threat? A stab, or a slash? And which parts of the body are the best targets for a blade?

If this isn't somewhere you want this thread to go, feel free to moderate, HSO. Thanks again.

Nematocyst
July 11, 2012, 12:21 PM
Excellent. You're right: this discussion fits much better here than in the Switchblade thread.

Busy day, but asap, I have some questions to add about RGEO and RGEI, etc, and a thought or two.

hso
July 11, 2012, 12:27 PM
We should look at the great, good, bad and awful in this category as well.

I bear a scar from a RKK Snitch that just through luck didn't sever the tendons in my left elbow (stupid accident) so there are a wide range of little knives that can serve in a defensive role. Some just happen to be more focused in their design for that use.

Bobson
July 11, 2012, 12:28 PM
RGEO and RGEI
Reverse grip/edge out, and reverse grip/edge in, correct?

hso
July 11, 2012, 12:37 PM
My apologies to John and Nem and others in the "Faster Than A Switchblade" thread. I somehow failed to move your posts on small defensive fixed blades over to this thread and they have been lost.

John had pointed out the work he and Sam were doing on this type of knife and that they hoped to have something out when John gets back from serving in Afghanistan.

A mention of the Disciple was made.

Sorry for the fat fingered fumbling of the transfer of posts.


***

Ok, I think I restored the posts thanks to Nem!

Bobson
July 11, 2012, 12:59 PM
Accidents happen, HSO. I suspect you're forgiven by those whose posts were lost.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of a knife with the cutting edge on top (I have no clue what its actually called), like on the Clinch Pick? Or, if this makes more sense, the advantages of the Clinch Pick, vs the advantages of the Kabar TDI? Like I said, I was very impressed with the TDI, and obviously didn't get to handle the Clinch Pick. But it seems like it comes down to which types of attacks (stabs vs slashes) are more effective in stopped an attack, and on which areas of the body.

Fred Fuller
July 11, 2012, 01:16 PM
http://www.knivesplus.com/media/BK-BO280.jpg

- image from http://www.knivesplus.com/bokerknifebk-bo280.html

This is a Boker production version of David Mosier's Trigonaut custom (http://dmknives.com/) that seems to have some promise. The grip design does not lend itself to a reverse grip - it's designed to support a saber grip - but the blade design seems workable.

ETA - current sheath is molded and will likely need replacement with a more useful kydex design.

Nematocyst
July 11, 2012, 03:24 PM
Fred, that's a sweet looking little blade!

I've added it to my list of those to consider, even though lack of a reverse grip option puts it low on the list.

My Manix 2 has caused me to become a fan of Wharncliffe blades.

sidheshooter
July 11, 2012, 03:27 PM
The question that comes to mind for me, is which type of attack more quickly ends a threat? A stab, or a slash? And which parts of the body are the best targets for a blade?

If this isn't somewhere you want this thread to go, feel free to moderate, HSO. Thanks again.

This is a topic that trainer Michael Janich goes into some detail about in both his seminars and his videos. I admit to having fully drunk his koolaid on that one; I'm a "structural" guy all the way, since all I want is to either get away, or make the attack stop. (this means that I am not much for stabbing, aside from getting through the first layer of clothes for a comma cut).

I'm curious to hear from those that have studied with Douglas, or studied pikal (I am ignorant regarding this POI, myself). By what specific mechanism does this design cause an attacker to "back off"? Pain? Fear? Exsanguination? Mobility loss? Structural collapse? I love the speed and surprise aspect of this little blade, but I am interested in hearing ideas about its use once deployed.

Rexster
July 11, 2012, 08:26 PM
The ronin is awesome in conventional grip...but are you carrying it for Forward Grip Edge Up? It could work but seems awkward.
Sorry it took me so long to see this. A Ronin is workable for me in any grip orientation, even FGEI, but yes, it is best FGEO, as designed by Michael Janich. When I obtained real Clinch Picks and Disciples, I stopped carrying Ronins positioned for edge-in deployment. I should note that my palms are medium-large size, but my pinkies, ring fingers, and thumbs are relatively quite short, so what fits me may not work so well for most guys.

Rexster
July 11, 2012, 08:35 PM
Well, yes, that ^ makes a lot of sense.

So, question: CP is RGEO, right?

The reason I'm loving the D is it's RGEI.

I'd like a CP that's RGEI.
_____

Added by edit after some reflection.

But for that price with a trainer,
I'll buy one regardless.
The CP is designed for Forward Grip, Edge-IN, as the primary grip, though it can be used RGEI. It would be very awkward to use the CP edge-out, due to the grip design.

FWIW, I like the Disciple in FGEI, too, though it is not as feasible to wear a Disciple in the front of the belt, positioned for a downward draw. Not only is comfort a factor, but the drawstroke is longer, which can be problematic in some physical positions that may occur during a fight.

Nematocyst
July 11, 2012, 09:00 PM
RGEO and RGEI
Reverse grip/edge out, and reverse grip/edge in, correct? Bobson, yes, that's it. Sorry for not being more clear.

Rexster
July 11, 2012, 09:16 PM
This is a topic that trainer Michael Janich goes into some detail about in both his seminars and his videos. I admit to having fully drunk his koolaid on that one; I'm a "structural" guy all the way, since all I want is to either get away, or make the attack stop. (this means that I am not much for stabbing, aside from getting through the first layer of clothes for a comma cut).

I'm curious to hear from those that have studied with Douglas, or studied pikal (I am ignorant regarding this POI, myself). By what specific mechanism does this design cause an attacker to "back off"? Pain? Fear? Exsanguination? Mobility loss? Structural collapse? I love the speed and surprise aspect of this little blade, but I am interested in hearing ideas about its use once deployed.

The CP is not really a "back-off" blade, as I see it. It is designed to be used in a very point-driven
manner. The way a CP is worn, is for deployment in a very specific manner. I reckon a CP could be
used before finding one's self in a clinch, but really, other weapons are better for fighting at longer range; the CP is small for reasons other than concealability. The CP can be deployed and wielded when one has very little room in which to move.

To be clear, my actual blade training time with SouthNarc is very, very minimal. When I saw him demo the CP and Disciple at the Blade Show, however, it was a eureka moment for me; I knew this was simple, brutal, effective stuff, for the occasion in which reaching and
drawing a handgun or other larger edged weapon would be problematic. Indeed, SN's scenario was being seated inside a van or restaurant booth, with bad guys seated on either side AND facing! Think
of an undercover agent being surrounded by dope dealers, and suddenly the negotiation is found to be a rip-off robbery or assasination, with little to no room to extend one's elbows...

To be clear, I do not think of the CP philosophy to be in conflict with that being taught by others!

sidheshooter
July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM
The CP is not really a "back-off" blade, as I see it. It is designed to be used in a very point-driven
manner. The way a CP is worn, is for deployment in a very specific manner. I reckon a CP could be
used before finding one's self in a clinch, but really, other weapons are better for fighting at longer range; the CP is small for reasons other than concealability. The CP can be deployed and wielded when one has very little room in which to move.


Thanks for the thoughts, Rexster, I appreciate it. I certainly get the reasoning behind the size and carry; there are numerous videos and reviews out there pointing out that the blade can be rapidly deployed even under extreme mobility constraints (ie. the hemmed-in Narc in your scenario; a perfect tool for that specialized situation).

It is probably worth mentioning out loud that I have already acquired the *utmost* respect for Douglas by proxy; too many folks that I've come to trust here speak very highly of his instruction. For that matter, Janich specifically praised Douglas by name more than once in the seminar I took with him, so I am very aware that SN is no dunce with a blade (or anything else combative), if I may paraphase one of my favorite swashbuckling flicks. He's absolutely, for sure on my short list to seek out for training.

That said, the general guy-with-a-knife youtubes around the CP seem to start and end with the grip, yank and shank philosophy, with not much address of what happens when the blade is actually in play. As well, the handful of online instructional excerpts on the subject from the man himself–while demonstrating superb tactics, mechanics, body positioning, and teaching skill–appear to tend towards working the guy over with the point, which is not high on my own list of activities. I'm not well equipped to go one-on-one in tight quarters with anyone serious while waiting for a pressure drop or psychological stop–which I think we all agree could possibly take an eternity when the opposition is committed to messing you up. (This concern goes to the heart of Bobson’s question about what type of knife counter-attack ends the threat quicker: I’m of the mind that stabbing is more lethal, but cutting away an attacker’s ability to use their weapon/hurt you/reach you is the faster way to safety).

Several heavies here dig this blade though, so I really am asking simply because I'm no expert, and I don't yet get the point (no pun intended). I’m willing to learn though.

I hope that makes sense.

Nematocyst
July 11, 2012, 11:38 PM
This seems like an extremely important discussion, and I'm glad it's happening.

I have similar questions to those that are being asked.

Reading with interests.

Nem

Deltaboy
July 12, 2012, 11:03 PM
I got to get that K-Bar neck knife.

Nematocyst
July 12, 2012, 11:17 PM
That's two of us, Delta.

conw
July 13, 2012, 02:10 AM
That said, the general guy-with-a-knife youtubes around the CP seem to start and end with the grip, yank and shank philosophy, with not much address of what happens when the blade is actually in play. As well, the handful of online instructional excerpts on the subject from the man himself–while demonstrating superb tactics, mechanics, body positioning, and teaching skill–appear to tend towards working the guy over with the point, which is not high on my own list of activities. I'm not well equipped to go one-on-one in tight quarters with anyone serious while waiting for a pressure drop or psychological stop–which I think we all agree could possibly take an eternity when the opposition is committed to messing you up.

I agree with the last sentence, so don't end up there!

If you do, plain and simple, you don't know what will stop... psychological stop is likely, true structural stop in my view isn't. Some combination, maybe.

If the above two fail and I needed a knife to use, I want it to have dealt out the MOST damage possible so I can fight until the other guy isn't.

One thing is, Craig doesn't teach the CP as a standalone, nor IMO should anyone teach the knife as a primary weapon. Meaning you have to know how to fight when a knife is in play, not just put a knife into play and hope to win the fight.

As for "what happens"... I believe it's a false dichotomy to have a GOAL of stopping a BG using solely one method or the other. The goal is stop the bad guy.

I have never seen or had Janich's material presented to me but I do feel it's subject to becoming ineffective under enough pressure, because to "get away" you need to create some kind of window, which involves aggressiveness. I'm not speaking for Craig or anyone else, by the way.

I want to incorporate aggressiveness into my fighting to create the window to get away... I don't want to try to back up AS I'm cutting as one instructor teaches, mainly because independently of any philosophical objection, I know from training it won't work.

To me this is a lot like the whole "learning to fight on the ground" debate. Lots of people say don't train that, you don't want to go to the ground...I like this quote:

The surest way to end up on the ground in a fight is to never train there. -Matt Thornton

Similarly, I believe that you can't have a half-measure "less deadly" or "less aggressive" knife method and expect equal efficacy. In a knife based defensive strategy, especially if multiples are present, you need something that works as fast as possible through whatever mechanisms.

Greater aggressiveness = faster psychological stop
aggressiveness = more damage, whether "structurally" or otherwise - the FGEU/RGEI methods don't discriminate, and would cause plenty of structural damage as well as other types
More damage to multiple targets on body = more overall chance of stoppage - if structural doesn't work in a given fight, you have started the "timer" on the more slow and steady decrements

Aggressiveness is also a way of turning the tide in the fight. When you fight, fight. You don't "defend" in my opinion... defending means going more slowly, trying not to get hit, letting the other guy dictate the encounter.

A psych stop may be more likely to happen with massive damage, too. If you get a cut to the forearm then the biceps then the deltoid, that might be disconcerting, and would make many people stop. I believe grievous damage such as 10-15 stabs culminating in shear cuts would be more disconcerting.


In my experience if you have someone trying to hurt you (or simulating it very convincingly) you will generally end up turning the tide by doing the counterintuitive thing of moving into them or any direction but back while delivering multiple disruptive strikes/stabs or even shots. If you concede any initiative, space, or relent, the person committing the assault will continue it.

If you extrapolate this to multiple attackers I feel point driven makes much more sense than anything else, as well. It's faster, less leakage of efficiency and energy, and the knife stays in a defined path and so does your hand/elbow, preventing you from getting chicken winged or similar.

conw
July 13, 2012, 02:16 AM
Separate thoughts I wanted to add where they can be addressed in a reply without bringing in all that.

First, I think biomechanical cutting is more or less a myth. I think about that Monty Python scene with the black knight:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_u1X7-o_qmHY/SrwO3lNkz5I/AAAAAAAAAJ0/84BOHGXDLN4/s400/monty-python-black-knight-.jpg

If someone wants to hurt you they can't be "disabled" by severing hand/arm tendons to the extent they're no longer a threat. Platt (or Matix) was shot in the shoulder/arm, it was disabled, and he was still fighting.

If that person stops, I'd call that a psychological stop.

I know J teaches the hamstring cut and I imagine it could work but it could also just result in a guy hobbling at you, which is not a "stoppage." If you are going for that type of mobility kill, get some judo skills and you can have an equal chance, IMO.

Separate point - the shearing cut with the CP is just incredibly damaging. It is "point driven" but the edge plays as much of a role as the point. You get a huge amount of compression. I would believe it if someone created an 7" deep by 20" long cut using a properly sharp clinch pick, which of course is sub-3". I don't see any edge based method doing that.

Again, I want more damage, period. The CP is devastating and its small size is the icing on top because there aren't that many excuses not to have it present at all times, for most people. The size also means it can work in a fight (vehicle example again) where even a 4" bladed knife won't.

hso
July 13, 2012, 09:23 AM
conwict,

We're in complete agreement that the knife is just one "tool" and various techniques with a knife are just some of the ways to use that tool in self defense. You have to be able to use that tool along with other defensive tools and techniques if you realistically expect to succeed with the lest damage to yourself. Depending upon "just" the knife is a failing plan. You have to be able to deal with the attacker and they're not following your plan.

Perhaps the differences in our opinions is about what "stop" means when dealing with knives. I was trained both in fencing and in FMA (kinds rhymes!) so I both thrust and slash/cut/rip and see value in all in the right situation. You know that when a muscle separates from the tendon or the tendon separates from the bone that the function of the associated muscles and joints are gone for that attachment. The person isn't down, but that part of the limb is "down" until it heals. The fight may not stop, but the person's ability to fight effectively is impacted. Can they fight on? Sure. I blew an ACL 15 years ago up in the mountains and had to bike back out concentrating very very hard on keeping my right knee bending the way it was supposed to instead of sideways like it "wanted" (yech!). I was able to "fight on", but I sure wan't as effective. A thrust to the body with a cut out can hit a vital organ, but there are plenty of instances where the internal parts roll/slide as the blade strikes and the damage is mostly to the skin/muscles of the torso. The targeting is vitally (sheesh) important with thrusts as much as the targeting for limb destruction. Can someone fight on with a ruptured liver/lung? Sure. Heart? Depends upon the damage. How big a hole in the body you make will cause more damage so the bigger/longer blade, longer/deeper cut, deeper thrust, broader cutout ("J" or "comma") do more damage than shallower/shorter. A lot of that depends upon how to cut/thrust. Ripping out with pikal does bias towards making a bigger wound due to the design and the big muscle pulling movement, but big wounds can be produced with other designs/techniques.

If you go for the throat/neck targets you can stop an attacker pretty quickly by causing catastrophic collapse in blood pressure to the brian and disrupting breathing. Still, some tough characters can fight on as they're lights are fading fast and maim or kill you if you think the fight is stopped instantly with a successful hit to the throat/carotid/jugular.

The point I'm making is that you can stop a fight with "limb destruction" as much a thrust/cutout to the body because neither are guaranteed to stop an attacker immediately. They reduce the effectiveness of the attacker's ability to fight. Pikal requires more training and has some limitations on reach and technique. There's no one best tool or technique. Don't throw any tools out of the tool box.

I have studied with Craig and I've studied with Michael's "students" and seen his training. Michael does use hand to hand with a focus on supporting the knife use and defending. Craig is more focused on the hand to hand with the knife supporting the fight. They're on a spectrum with each other as opposed to being on different lines, if that's remotely clear.

scramasax
July 13, 2012, 09:53 AM
I'm all for carrying and using a custom knife, I do quite often. But two of the small knives I carry quite often are a Spyderco "street beat" and a modified Bill Moran skinner with both edges sharpened. The customs that I carry are both by Gary Wheeler. When I feel the need to carry a larger urban knife it is my REKAT Hobbit Warrior. A way to carry a longer blade is to use a kydex scabbard that releases the blade when it is partially drawn.

Haven't bought into the "Besh Wedge" just don't agree with the already broken tip part.

Also like the Almar shadow II. It is long enough for penetration and you can slash with it as effectively as curved blade close in.

Cheers,

ts

RatDrall
July 13, 2012, 12:50 PM
Guys interested in edge in, tip down knife stuff aware of the TSD Grab N Stab?

http://tsdcombatsystems.com/tsd-grab-n-stab-knife/

Tool steel, custom quality, with a kydex sheath made by Blade-tech I think.

Nematocyst
July 13, 2012, 01:50 PM
OK, so as I drank my morning coffee (with a raspberry turnover and extra butter), I finally read this thread from start to finish. I sort of got pulled into the middle of it from another thread a couple of days ago (thanks for weaving those posts in, Hso; nice save! :) ), and hadn't really backed all the way up to get the full context.

As an avowed newb when it comes to knives as a SD tool - at least in terms of doing it right - I gotta say that this is the best set of posts I've ever read about these ideas in terms of sorting out a bunch of considerations about various knives, training techniques, fighting styles, etc. Posts 50, 51 and 52 by Conwict and Hso are especially thought provoking in that regard; much to consider and reflect on. Thanks to you both.

I have some questions, including some about the Clinch Pick (believe it or not, I'm still not entirely clear on edge orientation with it, even with good descriptions and the image that Hso posted back on page 1). I'm trying to think of all this in terms of my kubotan training, which for me, mostly follows a RGEI style (if you can imagine that for a kubotan: reverse grip, stabbing and hooking actions). I seem to be seeking a small SD knife that uses the same basic motions.

But I want to reread and reflect on the entire thread before asking them, and I need to get work done first. I'm heading out of town for a few days tomorrow, and will have crummy net access, so I may wait until I get back.

Just one more point (pun intended) for now.

Guys interested in edge in, tip down knife stuff aware of the TSD Grab N Stab?

http://tsdcombatsystems.com/tsd-grab-n-stab-knife/

Here's the page (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/infideledgeworks-thegrabnstab-1.aspx#.UABHFe0aDBw) on the knife itself.

Where's that "drooling" smilie when you need it? :-)~

Probably just as well that I don't have an extra $180 laying around;
that one could be on a UPS truck heading my way by evening if I did. :D

hso
July 13, 2012, 02:33 PM
Nem,

Y'know, there are guys buying the new cheap Sharpfingers and modding them into pikal knives.

Nematocyst
July 13, 2012, 03:00 PM
^ Very interesting. Just did a quick search and turned up a couple of pages about it.

Here's an image (http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac185/natchezz/DSC_1270.jpg) comparing the Sharpfinger to a Disciple. Note the former has a double edge in this one, but some are filing off the original edge to make it carry legal. (Other's are apparently not. :scrutiny: )

{This discussion is just way too interesting for getting work done on Friday afternoon ...}

hso
July 13, 2012, 03:09 PM
The Sharpfinger is a single edge skinner. The mod is to sharpen the concave spine into a cutting edge. Those concerned with "dagger" laws are then grinding the original convex edge flat to a thickness of a dime leaving just the new concave edge for a tip up, concave edge up knife.

9mmepiphany
July 13, 2012, 03:22 PM
Wow, I didn't know that the edged weapons forums were this interesting. I didn't know there was as much contention over edge vs. point blade work as there is in SAO vs. DAO trigger manipulation

I've recently attended a Janich seminar and found it very enlightening. It is very much edged based with the thumb placed on the back of the blade used as a guide for cutting...so it is ideally suited for the shorter blade. Michael teaches his MBC as a complete system. It includes open hand techniques (many from Silat) and techniques with the handgun. He and I (mostly a handgun guy) had a chance to discuss his views and I found that his views were well thought out. He said we'd just have to live with the word Blade in the tittle ;)

I'm not sure what he calls it, but I think of what he teaches as a kind of passive aggressiveness. You can easily see it's Eastern origins (take what the attacker give you) as opposed to the more American (overpower with brute force; think K-Bar). This doesn't mean that you retreat (although, you can surely pass an attack), but it does mean that you don't accept the natural disadvantage (unbalance) that you put yourself into by attacking. What he teaches is overwhelming response, by taking out major muscle groups, disabling limbs and dropping your attacker...with both inside and outside attacks. It also blends very well with internal power styles and the movement of Bagua.

Having seen the results of many street knife engagements, I would observe that edge attacks are much more effective than point (stabbing) attacks. I've seen the victims of stabbing, being treated latter, who said they were only vaguely aware that they were being stabbed as it was happening...they said it felt like being punched. An edge attack targeting muscle groups and connective tissue left the victim wondering why they could no longer grasp their weapon, left their arm or support their weight (much less move).

The MBC system is less about matching strength or power with your opponent, usually a losing proposition, and more about using technique and structure to your advantage.

If you choose a longer (>3") blade, there are advantages to fencing/point styles. I found the work of James Keating very interesting. My favorite longer knife is the timeless Applegate-Fairbairn...just for the feel in the hand. It just works best with a completely different grip than taught at MBC

I saw mentioned earlier the question about the sharpened false edge...I might have missed if it had been answered...and would add that a sharpened false edge allows a back cut (reverse cut) with an already extended blade

hso
July 13, 2012, 07:43 PM
As a retired cop, student of martial arts and, now, a student of Janich's I thought it was great that you were able to lend your experience and insight.

Nematocyst
July 13, 2012, 08:02 PM
I'll echo Hso, 9mm. Informative post to add more to this fine thread.

I have one question for now, about this:

Having seen the results of many street knife engagements,
I would observe that edge attacks are much more effective than point (stabbing) attacks.

So my question is, does your opinion change when one combines a stab with an edge, as in RGEI pikal style "stab then shear"?

As a novice - though one with LOTS of human anatomy and physiology knowledge (I taught college A&P for years), it seems that would be a very effective combo: stab, then rip.

But I'm here to learn.

Deltaboy
July 13, 2012, 08:26 PM
Stab and Rib is what I was taught by a EXCON College student who I tutored using
Bic pen, letter opener or any fixed or lockback knife.
Knife fighting is a hole other level of mindset, skills and being able to flip on the MEAN switch.
As several NAM vets have told me it chilling to run cold steel into another man and see the life drain out of him.

Nematocyst
July 13, 2012, 08:49 PM
Delta, I think that mindset is what's addressed in this article (http://tsdcombatsystems.com/tsd-grab-n-stab-knife/) that Ratdrall posted back in #54.

9mmepiphany
July 13, 2012, 10:45 PM
So my question is, does your opinion change when one combines a stab with an edge, as in RGEI pikal style "stab then shear"?
Not when you define effective as stopping and escaping. I wouldn't want to be on the interior line that long. By taking an the outside position, you limit, by 50%, the responses available to your attacker.

If given the option, I'd pass their initial strike and take the upper arm, before taking the upper leg. As hso mentioned earlier, taking the quad out is very effective to stopping the attack. This isn't a psych stop, it isn't a lack of blood pressure stop, it is simply taking out the muscle holding you opponent up...he drops before he knows why.

The "comma" cut (it follows the shape of a comma) to the inside of the thigh, doesn't take a lot of strength (you walk the blade through the muscle as you step through), takes a target that is usually available and not defended (it is supporting that side and you've just distracted with a bicep cut) and can be initiated while outside his arms and blocking (vertical forearm) his body away from you. The cut drives pass the thigh bone and cuts from inseam to inseam (more or less).

While I'm sure the stab and rip can be very effective, I'm reminded...from my less than adequate LE training...that a straight stab was the easiest to block and counter. I think the philosophy behind it is a bit different.

I will say that I don't recall any victims of that kind of attack from the streets. Most street attacks are quick strikes and withdraws or repeated short jabs...depending on where they learned their skill set (the media or the correctional system, respectively)

Nematocyst
July 13, 2012, 11:02 PM
Thanks, 9mm.

This is an amazingly informative thread.

Nematocyst
July 13, 2012, 11:10 PM
I'd pass their initial strike and take the upper arm, before taking the upper leg.

Watch this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGgaQ07D09Y) with Kelly McCann about using a 21" stick against a knife, and replace the stick with a knife.

Seems to take out the arm (even if lower arm), then take the leg (lower inside quad).

Similar strategy, at least.

9mmepiphany
July 14, 2012, 12:45 AM
Very similar. Where McCann takes the left leg with the baton, I would have taken the right...because I don't want to go face-to-face with him...plus I'm not trying to control him. That is one of the differences between a private citizen and a LEO's responsibility in responding to a like threat

At that distance, a short stick is better than a holstered gun or knife. Within about 10-12 feet a walking stick/cane is still better than a gun. You'd have to get out pass 20 feet before a holstered gun becomes a better option.

Nematocyst
July 14, 2012, 12:47 PM
^ Excellent points.

Deltaboy
July 20, 2012, 09:23 PM
Delta, I think that mindset is what's addressed in this article (http://tsdcombatsystems.com/tsd-grab-n-stab-knife/) that Ratdrall posted back in #54.
Yep it tells me the same thing I was taught back in the 1980's. You got to be willing to use a pencil or pen etc to maim , cripple or kill another human being so you can go home and kiss your wife and kids.
The C cut of the thigh was taught to me while I was taking MA in the 1980's. Any knife with at least 3 inchs of blade will do the job and allow you to get away.

conw
July 21, 2012, 04:19 AM
Nem - you are welcome. The clinch pick has an edge on the opposite side of a normal knife. You hold it just like a "conventional" knife but the edge is where people usually perch their thumb. The "front" is dull. The tip is sharp.

That's FGEU, forward-grip, edge-up.

hso - I am in full agreement with everything you wrote. The passage was not something I'd have typed unsolicited but I think someone asked why the pikal technique might have additional merit.

I just want to say I am not detracting from the concept of limb contact by the blade, or the potential merit. I wouldn't disagree with a single thing you said about it. I just don't see it as a strategy to base the fight around because I think it happens inevitably if you go for other more direct strikes, too.

That, and I want to add that I find "conventional" edge (like holding a kitchen knife) very effective the way SN teaches it, which is a simple 2 or 3 movement catalog. You do "punch" to target the hand with the edge and then you can potentially follow it up with a thrust which remains the goal but there is a pure edge-based movement in there, as a core movement. The key is you don't get overextended and can follow up quickly on a "half beat" as some might call it.

This does assume a semi ranged encounter, not 0 feet. I do feel that the economy of movement afforded by the edge in techniques can be very beneficial when someone's trying to grab and hold and won't let go, which could definitely happen if they don't know they've been stabbed/cut.

JShirley
July 21, 2012, 05:46 AM
Speaking of range, I'm a big fan of always keeping an intervening distance that potential attackers have to cross. There are various ways to use any weapon defensively, of course. One idea I've heard expressed that I like is, You take what the attacker gives you, break it, and give it back.

I'm okay with the concept of staying on the outer range of an attack, if I can't escape altogether, and destroying anything that approaches my "bubble". At the same time, if the attacker is inside, or gets inside, your bubble, you have to decisively act before you can get back outside.

John

hso
July 21, 2012, 12:13 PM
conwict, John, et Al ;),

Being able to change as the fluid situation changes is important in almost any situation. Being able to fight with a knife both inside and outside are valuable skills to have. Back when all I knew was fencing that's all I had as skills and philosophy. Expanding those skills taught me a lot.

JShirley
July 21, 2012, 12:46 PM
I guess I think in terms of range giving some leisure. Space translates into time. Not a lot of time, necessarily, but enough to respond. You may be able to stop an attack with a minimum of damage inflicted to the attacker's periphery/limbs or stop the attack in other ways (psychological or positional win).

If you have no (extra) space, you have no time, and I believe in decisively destroying your opponent in that situation.

I prefer space. I think having space gives considerably more options. Those options may mean that both my attacker and I get to live, and perhaps even keep full function.

John

hso
July 21, 2012, 01:48 PM
Me too, but there aren't too many ideal self defense situations where you get complete control of how it will be fought. Keeping the fight on your terms is great, but you have to be able to deal with the opposite.

PoserHoser
July 22, 2012, 12:16 AM
Interesting concept but i think cross draw is too easily countered. The blade on the clinch pick seems like it would only work one way which is not what you want in a defensive blade. just my .02 cents though

hso
July 22, 2012, 01:06 AM
How is an edge down any different?

It works "one way", but it happens to be the way we're familiar with.

Rexster
July 23, 2012, 02:45 PM
Interesting concept but i think cross draw is too easily countered. The blade on the clinch pick seems like it would only work one way which is not what you want in a defensive blade. just my .02 cents though
If one is in a clinch position, drawing anything is problematic. The Clinch Pick is designed to be drawn with very little articulation of the joints. Moreover, if one's usual "strong" arm cannot reach it, the other hand might be able to draw the Clinch Pick, in which case it will be used reverse grip, edge in.

It is actually part of a system, anyway. The Disciple, a companion blade, is not designed to be worn crossdraw. One need not carry the larger Disicple, either; one picture, on another
forum, shows two Clinch Picks, one worn to be drawn downward, and the other for an upward draw.

As for the single edge being a limitation, well, single edge is not only legal in FAR more jurisdictions, but one's method of using blades, in extremely tight situations, might be better performed with a single edge, in order to minimize the chance of cutting one's self. I think I am much more confortable with one edge, if drawing a blade from my abdominal/groin area, when in a fouled-up-tangle with a bad guy.

Please understand I make no claim to being an expert, nor an advanced student, of the blade. My training has been irregular and limited, especially the last few years. The Clinch Pick concept did, however, really diid "click" in my mind when I first saw it demo'ed at the
Blade Show in about '04 or so.

conw
July 23, 2012, 03:20 PM
My take... the "creation of space" is a psychological strategy similarly to how we want to use verbal techniques to create time (and possibly space); we aren't grizzly bears that can claw at someone and simultaneously throw them back 10-12 feet and cause grievous wounds. We don't have the physical strength to hold someone back with one limb, whether or not it's bearing a weapon. So, short of KOing someone before they close range, we're hoping that the person will be reluctant to close distance for some reason, such as presence of a weapon, or our willingness to fight, ((or maybe broad articulations of the weapon that "define" space?).

I personally care a lot more about initiative and position, than space per se. (I would rather be initiating from 1 inch behind the person than responding to aggression with 5 feet between and my back turned.) I rarely move backward because as you say, space creates time in a fight. That applies to both parties. If I am responding to an aggressive initial attack, and I move backwards, I have extended the window for the aggressor to execute his pre-planned "OODA" circuit (he's observed, oriented, decided... he is mid-"Act"); my best bet is to stabilize, absorb or adsorb or interrupt the attack, and deliver back some aggression.

I'm initially concerned with staying upright and conscious. So rather than use a weapon while a weapon is being actively used against me, I'm interested in using hands/arms to defend my dome (consciousness is a priority) and my movement is centered as much or more around staying on my feet as it is "getting distance."

Once stability is established to ensure the above, then I can try to actively control his ability to do damage, or possibly - e.g. with a handgun if range is open even slightly - do damage fast enough to stop him.

If neither of those is possible, generally closing distance is an effective OODA disruption tool. If someone is basically trying to assassinate you, their preconceived notion of the act is probably premised on doing it while you resist by trying to create distance or escape.

If you close on them while moving at appropriate angles (you call it "moving off line") and potentially even attach yourself, you are increasing chances of retaining mobility (if you practice it), reducing the effective distance the person has to generate power with melee type weapons, and increasing your chances of controlling a weapon bearing limb (or access of another weapon).

Failing all that, e.g. if the attacker is operating comfortably at range and you are unable to close and unwilling to try to move for escape in such a way that your priorities are compromised, then a ranged weapon defensive strategy makes sense.

Until that point though, I see premature weapon access as leaving a gigantic gaping hole in your defensive structure, and I see maintenance of range via weapon as premised on the assumptions that

1) BG sees your weapon
2) BG is afraid of your weapon
3) BG judges that the best risk management strategy is to pause and relent the pressure a bit and "allow" distance to open

It's my opinion that a lot of times people talk past each other on this issue because they have different concepts of what "the fight" is. I'm mostly talking about unwarranted aggression that comes with little warning - not a skilled assassin per se, but someone who is willing to kill to get something, such as revenge or material goods, and does not care about the consequences. This means my weapon is not accessed and I don't see it coming with more than, say, 2-15 seconds of warning.

There's a lot more discussion to be had, in defining common ground, about what happens in those 2-15 seconds. I don't really buy the whole "train to the Tueller drill" concept because that ignores the most important part of the fight, the moments before any weapon is out and you feel the hair stand up on your neck. Yet I do think having some tools to deal with an aggressive forward onslaught where the other person has accessed his weapon and you haven't, is useful. And in that latter case I don't find creating distance with the weapon to be a likely strategy, although it is possible.

If you access your weapon and the attacker does see it and he "decides" to let you create distance, you want to know how to fight there, and there is some chance, perhaps small in my estimation, that it might resemble a fencing match...

JShirley
July 23, 2012, 04:21 PM
Well reasoned.

I'm not really speaking of keeping distance once aggression has been initiated, so much as always keeping that bubble of space around you. And, yes, doing other than what they expect is good. :D

conw
July 23, 2012, 10:10 PM
Thanks. I am pretty sure the discussion sometimes reaches an impasse when terms aren't clear, especially for something as dynamic - yet based on many assumptions and premises - as training or best practices. Generally I find people with common training backgrounds do agree... but sometimes that may be more due to an agreement on terms than anything else.

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