CMP rimfire rules regarding riflestocks

[zahc]

Ok, I really want to do this rimfire sporter competition. But none of my rifles have a non-pistol grip or thumbhole stock. I have hurt my wrists a lot biking and find them to be uncomfortable.

I was wondering what the letter of the rules were so I could push them as I shop for or possibly build a stock. I can deal with something like the stocks on the T/C encores very well.

On a side note, after thinking about it I can find no good reason for this stock rule, except to DQ people who prefer ergonomic stocks or have bad wrists.

[Swampy]

zahc,

I can sympathize with your wrist problem, but there is a definite reason for the rule.... it's to limit participation exclusively to rifles that fit the "sporting" description.

The entire idea with this competition is to get new shooters who only have a "non-comp type" .22 rimfire out to shoot...... strictly "as built" all the way. This means that everyone will be shooting a rifle with a straight or angled grip and no adjustments anywhere. This is an "equalizer" event and any type of mod that smacks of "upgrade" for ergonomic or competition reasons is verboten.

There are plenty of other types of .22 events out there that allow upgrades and ergo stocks. Why not try them instead???

BTW, the TC Encore would not qualify for the CMP Sporter Rimfire because it does not have a magazine that holds at least 5 rounds. This is necessary for the rapid fire stages.

You can call the CMP and tell them of your problem and see what they say....

Best regards,
Swampy

[zahc]

I thought it was so that people could compete with hunting rifles, so it could be cheap, hence the fact that you shoot thier ammunition. As it is now I would have to spend money and modify my hunting rifle into an uncomfortable configuration in order to compete.

Do people not hunt with pistol grip stocks? Is there not a cheap hunting rifle that comes with a factory thumbhole stock? What is "unsporting" about a PG stock? Is it illegal to hunt with them? If not I don't see the problem. It's not my rules and I will not break them but that doesn't mean I can't complain.

All the other rules (weight, sights, ammo, etc) I can understand, because they have an effect on performance, but PG stock? Is there rules on what color your rifle can be too?:rolleyes:

Again, the question was what the letter of the rule was so that I can shop for or design a stock that's legal.

[Swampy]

zahc wrote:

Do people not hunt with pistol grip stocks? Is there not a cheap hunting rifle that comes with a factory thumbhole stock? What is "unsporting" about a PG stock? Is it illegal to hunt with them? If not I don't see the problem.

There is nothing "unsporting" about a stock with a pistol grip, but it does not meet the definition of "sporting" for THIS PARTICULAR EVENT. Again, it's an "equalizer" type of event. Pistol grips are more ergonomic. Many if not most of the older and most common .22's stashed away in closets out there do not have pistol grips and this event was designed for them. Allowing some shooters to have ergo stocks while others don't have them denies the "equalizer" concept of the event.

Put it on a par with the old IROC events where everyone had equally built Z-28 Camaros. How fair would it be if somebody were allowed to come in with his own Porshe 911?? Not an exact comparison but you get the idea.... :D

As it is now I would have to spend money and modify my hunting rifle into an uncomfortable configuration in order to compete

Modify how??? The whole idea is NO MODS. Strictly as built, within certain parameters of "sporting" as THEY define "sporting". If you have a rifle that qualifies, then go shoot. If you don't have one that qualifies, either get one that does or find a different type of event.

It's not my rules and I will not break them but that doesn't mean I can't complain.

Sure, and I can complain that since I can't run 100 yds. in 8 seconds flat something is wrong with the rules of qualification for the Olympic Track Team. They should be changed so that a 48 year old, 200 pound, out of shape beer guzzlin' couch potato like me can make it to the Gold platform..... but Hey, that's just me. ;)

Sorry, not to sound like I'm jumping on you, but think abut what you are saying. Complaining about how somebody else has their game set up when there are so many other choices that would fit your needs better just don't make any sense.

For the letter of the rules on the CMP .22 Rimfire Sporter Event, they are posted for download on the CMP's website at: www.odcmp.com

Hope you figure it out to suit you...

Best of regards,
Swampy

[Steve Smith]

This is, in essence, the same argument as "Why aren't A3 models allowed into Highpower Service Rifle?" Because it's not. That's not a high-minded answer, but it IS matter-of-fact. Suggestions for rules changes may be submitted to the rules committee, but the rules are the rules. If you want to play the game, you have the gun that fits the rules.

Would an IPSC L-10 competitor or IDPA competitor be allowed to shoot, even if his pistol didn't fit in "the box?" If he were allowed to shoot, what if he won? Would he be awarded the prize, even though his gun didn't fit the rules?

Would a child be allowed to race if his soapbox derby car didn't fit the rules? What if he won? Would the other children be told "he won, but you still have to follow the rules."


As a person who has decided to shoot in a stricly controlled shooting game and to comply with the rules, I say conform to the rules of your sport or find another game.

In the meantime, submit your issues to the rule committee.

The rules are easily obtained on the www.odcmp.com website. No offense Zach, but you should be familiar with the rules before you complain.



CMP Competiton Rules, 11.1 Intent and Spirit of Sporter Rules
The intent of CMO Rimfire Sporter rules is to promote target competitions with .22 caliber rimfire rifles that are restricted to low-cost, readily available spoerter-type rifles that are typically used in informal target shooting and plinking of for small game hunting. Any rifle configuration of item of equipment that is not mentioned in these rules or that is contrary to the intent and spirit of these rules is prohibited.

11.2.2 Stock
The rifle must have a standard sporter-type stock that is constructed of wood or synthetic material. The stock may have a Monte Carlo cheek piece, but may not have an orthopedic or asymmetrically shaped pistol grip. The stock may have a fixed sling swivel on the fore end. Thumbhole stocks, stock adjustments of any type (adjustable butt plate, adjustable cheek piece, ets) and rails or adjustable sling swivels are not permitted.


Seems to me that they are trying to prevent people from gaming this.

[zahc]

It's not my rules and I will not break them but that doesn't mean I can't complain.

^


Complaining about how somebody else has their game set up when there are so many other choices that would fit your needs better just don't make any sense.

The reason I want to compete in Sporter is that my school has a club.

Modify how??? The whole idea is NO MODS. Strictly as built, within certain parameters of "sporting" as THEY define "sporting". If you have a rifle that qualifies, then go shoot. If you don't have one that qualifies, either get one that does or find a different type of event.

My hunting rifle has an evil thumbhole stock. If I want to compete, I have to modify it to fit the rules. I know now (I was going off what the club leader had said before) that I need a stock that may have a Monte Carlo cheek piece, but may not have an orthopedic or asymmetrically shaped pistol grip. Now I have to be careful to buy a stock that does not have an "orthopedic" pistol grip which helps a little I guess. That was the intent of the thread, thanks for the rules.

I caused a drift toward discussing the rules, which is fine. I still think it is a dumb rule, and one that should be defined better. basically I think THEIR definition of sporting is way off track here. Does nobody agree?

[Swampy]

zahc wrote:

I still think it is a dumb rule, and one that should be defined better. basically I think THEIR definition of sporting is way off track here. Does nobody agree?


Go ask the guy who wants to enter his Porsche 911 in an IROC Z-race...... :D

Best of luck to ya',
Swampy

[Steve Smith]

Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant. If you have a problem with the rules, submit your proposal to the rules committee.


Zach, before you take those two rules that I typed out and buy a stock based on them, I URGE you to read ALL the rules for Sporting Rimfire and then make your selection.

[zahc]

Whether we agree or disagree is irrelevant.

Irrelevant to the competition, yes, since we don't make the rules. But that doesn't mean we can't discuss the rule geez. I didn't mean to excite everybody.

BTW the racecar analogies are irritating me. I never said I wanted to use wolf match or 24x scopes or gyroscopic stabilization. A better analogy would be the race promoters not allowing the driver run a fuzzy steering wheel cover since that wouldn't be sporting.


P.s people keep spelling my handle wrong.

[Swampy]

zahc wrote:

BTW the race car analogies are irritating me. I never said I wanted to use wolf match or 24x scopes or gyroscopic stabilization. A better analogy would be the race promoters not allowing the driver run a fuzzy steering wheel cover since that wouldn't be sporting.

Not really, Bud.....

You want to enter a competition that is designated as "sporting rifle only" by the comps originators, using a rifle having an ergonomic stock, and you are complaining that it's a "dumb rule", and you don't think that that gives you any sort of advantage over the other shooters to have an ergo stock????

Well here's something to think about.... Take a trip out to the next .22 rimfire silhouette match in your area. Take a GOOD LONG LOOK at the.22 rifles the competitors are shooting. I'll bet you see at least 50% to 75% (possibly MORE) of the rifles have ergo stocks of the type you want to shoot in CMP "sporter rimfire" (in my area it runs closer to 85%, can't say about anywhere else, but can't imagine it LESS than 50% anywhere if the rules allow it).

Now, upon seeing all these ergo stocks, ask yourself a question..... "self, why would all these shooters pay the $$ for an ergo stock on their silhouette .22's if it wasn't for some sort of advantage in using them?? Why not just use the standard sporter or hunting style stock that came on the rifle"???

The answer to such a self directed question is that there IS a definite advantage in using an ergo stock.

It improves head position (giving better sense of balance from the inner ear),
it increases comfort in the shooting arm (allowing better consistency over long strings of fire),
it lowers the support arm's elbow (giving better support in the standing position),
it's bulkier and heavier (better stability)......

ALL these things go toward imroving the shooters score..... read: advantage over a standard sporter style stock.

Gee.... sounds a bit more effective than a fuzzy steering wheel, don't it....
Sounds a lot more like the beefier suspension, finer steering, and higher end brakes on the Porsche 911...... :D

And you want to complain that the event you want to enter won't allow you to have an advantage that none of the other shooters are allowed???
Give me a break, dude. :barf:

Oh, and before you can "complain" that you are not wanting a full ergo stock, but only a pistol grip, let me say that in ANY set of rules the line has to be drawn somewhere to say "this is OK, this is NOT OK". The CMP has drawn the line and it says that pistol grips are "not OK".

WHY?? becaue the CMP's "sporting rifle" rimfire event is meant for the commonly available, traditional type of .22 rimfire rifle. And if the IROC committe says that fuzzy steering wheels are not allowed, then that's not OK either. IT'S THEIR GAME AND THEY DRAW THE LINE !!!!

zahc,
It sounds like you are a young shooter wanting to shoot... that's GREAT!!! I hope you do shoot, have a ball doing so, and keep it up for the rest of your life. Shooting competitions of all types are great sports to get into and can put you into contact with a lot of good people in your lifetime....

The thing you need to remember, if you'll take the advice of a long time shooter and competitor (competitor in both shooting and in other types of sports, too) is that while you DO have a right to complain about whatever you wish, all the people around you who are hearing you have a right too... and that right is to not want to put up with you. You see, in just about any sport there are people who want to complain that things are not set up or run the way THEY think they ought to be. These people are not usually thought of as complainers.... they are thought of as WHINERS..... and usually don't make too many friends among the people in the sport of their choice.

Is this the type of competitor YOU want to be??? I doubt it....

It's your decision here.... You can continue to complain (WHINE, in the eyes of those around you) and get nowhere except lower in the eyes of your fellow competitors, or you can adapt to the situation by either shooting with a type of rifle allowed by the rules (the same as EVERYONE else in the game) or choose another game that will allow you the type of stock you want.

I hope you choose wisely... The path you are currently on is not destined to make you many friends among the other shooters in which you spend your leisure hours.

Best regards,
Swampy

[zahc]

And you want to complain that the event you want to enter won't allow you to have an advantage that none of the other shooters are allowed???


Actually I think everyone should be allowed pistol grip stocks since I don't think they break the definition of sporting.

I will stop whining now.:D

[Steve Smith]

ZaHC, please read my latest thread, stuck at the top of this forum. Thanks. :)

[zahc]

I'd just like to say in my defense, I seemed to be labeled a whiner in this thread, but originally I was just inquiring about the rules so I could follow them. I never intended to change them or break them.

[Steve Smith]

Not at all, man. A LOT of people ask questions about that sort of thing. It just got me thinking.

[HankB]

There are a lot of competition shooting sports where dumb rules exist.

Sometimes the rules have good reason, sometimes the rule isn't too well thought out, sometimes the rules are purely the result of internal politics. If you're not one of the rulemakers yourself, remember - nobody is forcing you to compete. Find an alternative to compete in - look around. If you're serious, you'll almost certainly find something more to your liking.

[hipwr223]

The reason for this rule is to prevent guys with $2500.00 Anschutz free rifles from entering and dominating the game. Most of the big money position rifles are either pistol grip or thumbhole stock designs.

The idea of these rules is not to exclude you from the game, but rather make the game more level for those invloved.

The reasoning is to keep it from becoming and equipment race and more about marksmanship.

Rather than try and beat the system, adapt and overcome, and excell within it.

John

PS, if you do not like restrictive rules, I would advise you not to take up service rifle shooting. We as a group tend to like the strict regs as it forces one to work harder to achieve excellence.

[Publicola]

I could be wrong, but I think the main complaint is about labeling a pistol grip stock as "non-sporting" more or less.

& before anyone starts - anyone can set up any rules they wish under any definitions (or lack thereof). While their can be arguments for or against the merits of the rules themselves, I think the main complaint here isn't just that pistol grips aren't allowed, but they're called non-sporting more or less.

This harkens back to the GCA of '68. remember that little provision about rifles being imported only if they had a "sporting use"?

Yes, pistol grips give some if not most shooters an advantage because of ergonomics, but it is a misnomer to define the shape of stock as either sporting or unsporting.

Like I said I could be wrong but I think that was at least a good part of the objections raised to the rule.

Now here's a thought that will probably solidify my rep as "strange"...

ever thought fo competing in a match w/o competing? What I mean is discuss your situation with the person running the match & ask if it'd be okay to shoot the course of fire but not be a candidate for any of the rewards &/or official scores? They might go for it, might not. But if they do you'd get a chance to shoot the course of fire before you alter your stock to comply with the rules. Naturally this won't work for everything (can I shoot my .50 BMG in your rimfire match?) but sometimes a deviation from the regs wouldn't hurt anyone else's standing (you're not shooting for scores or prizes, right?).

It's a little off topic but to give an example I shoot in Hi Power matches even though I'm not an NRA member. Granted, my scores aren't where it'd really matter but I don't do it for official recognition or prizes or any of the other perks that come from competition - I just like shooting Hi Power.

So talk to the guys in charge of the rimfire event & ask them about shooting w/o competing more or less. All they can do is say no.

[InTheBlack]

If the only definition of what constitutes a "sporter" grip is in the rule Steve quoted, then put a .22 RF top end on your Colt AR-15 Sporter or Sporter II receiver.

It must be a "sporter" since it says it is right on the receiver.

My real complaint is that defining a particular shape for equipment as "sporting" plays right into the gun grabbers hands. The NRA is really dropping the ball in so many ways...

[zahc]

While their can be arguments for or against the merits of the rules themselves, I think the main complaint here isn't just that pistol grips aren't allowed, but they're called non-sporting more or less.

pistol grips give some if not most shooters an advantage because of ergonomics, but it is a misnomer to define the shape of stock as either sporting or unsporting.

My real complaint is that defining a particular shape for equipment as "sporting" plays right into the gun grabbers hands

^yay.