[flatlander937]

While I'm still very new to shooting in general(450 rounds through my 1991... and probably another 600ish through various other friends' guns and range rentals)... I can't see how anybody can even possibly be group shots at distances like 25 yards.

I can keep roughly a 6" group at 10 yards if I really concentrate and take my time and have a bit of luck.

I've attempted to shoot as far as 15 yards... and it gets really pathetic around there. I have also not seen many other people even attempting to shoot at targets beyond that distance... most seem to be between 5 and 10 yards.

I'm only 23... but my vision is 20/20 with my contacts in and I really just can't see that far out clearly. And if I could, the white dot of my front sight covers half of the whole target. I changed out the rear sight for a black serrated rear sight from 10-8 Performance because I had problems focusing on the front dot with the 3-dot setup. My groups haven't gotten any better, but they haven't gotten worse... main benefit is my vision doesn't wander from front to back sights over and over for quicker sight acquisition.

Note: All shooting is done standing up, either with one or both hands. One thing that is nice is even though it feels awkward as heck, I am surprisingly accurate shooting left-handed(I'm right-handed). It just takes a second or two longer to verify a good grip before I feel confident pulling the trigger in general.


So when you guys are talking about shooting stuff at 20-25 yards... Is this something that took you thousands and thousands of rounds to get tight/acceptable groups? Or are these groupings being done with a rest of some kind?


Any tips on shooting exercises to work on at home or at the range?

My personal next step will be to buy a .22 so I can afford to shoot about 7x more each time I go out:p

[Rail Driver]

Dry fire a lot. I mean a LOT. I find that dry firing helps me a lot with proper trigger pull and control. Get someone more experienced to work with you on your grip and stance as well. In order to shoot well, you need to start where every good shooter started: With the fundamentals. (obviously safety comes first, but you know what I mean)

[kwhi43@kc.rr.com]

This will give you a idea of what you can do at 50 yds. Wish I had her 100yd
target to show you. It's about a 15 inch group for 10 shots. This was done
by my wife in competition . Your only allowed to use one hand standing. The
"10" ring is just a little over 3 inches in dia, so you can see about what the
group is. This is to encourage you, and you will get better. Just keep at it.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/SmallSizeFile.jpg

[MrBorland]

So when you guys are talking about shooting stuff at 20-25 yards... Is this something that took you thousands and thousands of rounds to get tight/acceptable groups? Or are these groupings being done with a rest of some kind?

Good shooters can shoot 3" or better groups @ 25 yards while shooting unsupported. Top bullseye shooters can do quite a bit better than this. No, shooting well's not quite as easy as it appears on the big screen, but it' something that's attainable with practice.

I never shoot from a rest. I don't know how many rounds it took, but it certainly didn't come instantly. OTOH, I was fortunate that I somehow intuitively understood (or accepted) from the beginning that it's all (and only) about the 2 fundamentals - sight picture & trigger control - so accuracy's never really been a problem for me. Make it a commitment to apply the fundamentals better every time you shoot and you'll make good progress. A .22LR pistol would be an excellent investment.

One tip about the fundamentals: Forget about the target. It may be the goal, but it's not the process. It's merely a recording device that records how well you're applying the fundamentals. If your groups are big, don't try for a small group - try for better application of the fundamentals. The target will take care of itself.

[SharkHat]

Have you ruled out eye dominance issues? Your comment about left handed accuracy may hint at this.

The key to shooting consistent groups is consistency in your actions. Sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze, etc. These are all learnable with practice, but fighting eye dominance can cause that learning curve to become much steeper.

[rcmodel]

So when you guys are talking about shooting stuff at 20-25 yards... Is this something that took you thousands and thousands of roundsI honestly can't remember.

I started with a BB gun in 1950 when I was 6.
A .22 rifle when I was 9.

I do remember shooting an old washing machine tub in a ditch on our farm with a Ruger .357 revolver at around 150 yards all the time when I was 16.
It was unusual to miss it.

Running coyotes at 75 yards were in serious trouble.
As were running rabbits at 20 - 30 with a .22 auto.

By the time I was 25, I was shooting pistol competition with an Army AMU team.
Timed and rapid fire at 25 yards, slow fire at 50 yards, with .22, center-fire, and .45.
And you better keep all your shots in the 10 & X ring on that target in post #3, or pack up and go home.

I won a lot of beer money in my off time with a 2" snub-nose .38 Spl, or .45 auto shooting .50 cal ammo cans at 100 yards.

The whole handgun accuracy thing is "Front sight, Breathing, Squeeze".

You are going to wobble and shake.
Just keep adding pressure to the trigger each and every time the front sight is going by the center of the target.
Then repeat as necessary until the gun goes off unexpectedly.
It will go off with the front sight on the target.


Don't try to focus on the rear sight, or the target, or try to switch focus back & forth between the front, rear, and target.
You can't..

Both the rear sight and the target can be / will be blury, and your eye will take care of finding the center of things by itself if you only focus on the front sight.

If you developed a flinch or jerk early starting with a .45 ACP Commander, it will never get better until you go back to a .22 or dry-firing and practice through it.

rc

[Steve C]

Shooting is a learned skill like any other sport. Nobody would expect to be able to play golf, bowing, tennis, basketball, etc well without first gaining some instruction and working to develop some skill. Everyone thinks that shooting is easy because it looks that way on TV but so does any other sport that you have never played. You always gain a lot better appreciation of the skill involved after you try it yourself.

If you are lucky you have a mentor who explained the basic principles and helped you develop at least rudimentary skill. If you enlist in the military they will train you in basic skills of marksmanship for a rifle at least but the principles are still the same for handgun.

Improvement takes good practice to overcome the errors that makes one miss. If you don't know why you are missing then practice using poor technique will do nothing to make you a better shot.

You can self teach by reading or watching instructional videos. Search Google, the public library. Go to http://www.bullseyepistol.com and read the Army Pistol Marksmanship Manual and other lessons. The rest is learning by doing. Quickest way to learn is to take lessons from a good instructor.

[9mmepiphany]

It is hard to give specific shooting advice without having seen you shoot. General observations of beginning shooters or shooters that have a hard time holding a reasonable group at 10 yards...which really should be < 3"...are:

1. You're tightening your grip as you press the trigger
2. You're compromising your grip pressure by leaving space open on the grip frame
3. You're snapping the trigger back when you see the sights perfectly aligned on the target
4. You're not pressing the trigger straight to the rear
5. You're anticipating the flash and recoil

The best thing to do is to get some professional shooting instruction to learn the correct techniques

[chicharrones]

My personal next step will be to buy a .22 so I can afford to shoot about 7x more each time I go out:p

Definitely get a good .22 LR pistol of some sort. If you can't afford personal instruction, you can pick up some good info from the right sources.

Like this for one.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4584332856867071363

Then put what you learn to use with practice.

[CZ57]

To me 25 yards is for adjustable sighted revolvers and adjustable sighted .22s. For combat pistols 50 feet is the distance we shoot at. Both rested and freehand. If you shoot a tiny 1" group rested you know the accuracy potential of your pistol and have something to shoot for. It is a known fact that the vast majority of gunfights take place at 21' and under so 50' accuracy is plenty good as is 15 yards. Keep practicing at 15 yards and don't sweat 25 yards unless you are shooting adj. sighted revolvers. ;)

[Peter M. Eick]

http://eickpm.com/picts/lb1_012112.jpg

This is 50 shots, 15 yrds, brand new gun. It was actually the first 50 shots I took with the gun. I am just now starting to feel comfortable enough at 15 yrds to move to 25 yrds on a routine basis.

My recommendation if you are you is start at 5 yards and practice till you can do 50 in a group like this or better. Once you master 5 yrds, go to 7.5. Master 7.5 go to 10. Master 10 go to 15. Master 15 move to 25. Master 25, well, I will see you on the 50 yrd range because that will be where I am.

[Serenity]

I'm just getting started as well, with about the same number of rounds through my guns. I don't put out the paper targets every trip. Maybe every 3rd. I have my 16 year old son with me and we try to change it up; our range has tripods to hang steel plates from as well as bowling pins and barrels. If we are hitting the bowling pins consistently from 15 yards, we know we would be on a target. Plus we have to move and aim for each shot, which is good practice for future competitions.

Don't get too stuck on the target paper; take a break from it to keep it fun.

[mgmorden]

I've attempted to shoot as far as 15 yards... and it gets really pathetic around there. I have also not seen many other people even attempting to shoot at targets beyond that distance... most seem to be between 5 and 10 yards.

One thing you'll learn if you go to the range a lot is that MOST people can't shoot that well at all. I watch all sorts of people barely keeping rounds on a silhouette target at 3-5 yards. If you hang out on firearms forums for a while you'll get a bit discouraged as most people here have a deeper interest in firearms and as a result have put more rounds downrange and shoot better than the average person.

Just keep at it - you'll get better. Myself I've probably got around 15k handgun rounds under my belt. About half of those are with my Ruger Standard .22 and another 3000 or so are out of my M&P 9mm (the rest are spread out amongst about 10 different guns). I'm most used to those guns but even with those I don't consider myself an amazing shot. I can pretty much keep all my rounds on a sheet of copier paper at 15 yards, which is passable - though I'd like to get better.

Just understand that not all practice is created equal. If you just go out and mindlessly blast away at the target your shooting won't improve much no matter how much you shoot. Go, shoot slowly (unless you're intentionally practicing shooting fast :)), and pay attention to your technique. Try to correct things you know your'e doing wrong.

[mdThanatos]

A lot of info has been provided, and while I am no expert marksman with a pistol, I am better than quite a few people I shoot with.

When you are starting out, go slow and start close. Try 3 or 5 yards to start then back it up to 7 yards, then 10 then 15 so on but don't increase the distance until you are consistent in your groupings.

Don't be ashamed of your targets unless you have been shooting 3" groups at 25 yards for the past 40 years and then all of a sudden your groupings look like a shotgun pattern, then you can be ashamed :D.

How does one get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, Practice, Practice!

[bds]

Deliberate practice (dry fire while watching the front sight etc.) with a lot of trigger time at the range will help with obtaining consistent small shot groups.

Here are some more pointers to consider for improving off hand shooting accuracy:

Stance - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Cf0WEeXZk&feature=related

Grip - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22msLVCtPk8&feature=relmfu

Trigger Control - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xa5JPLGIsU&feature=relmfu

Trigger & Grip Tips - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on2ikAwROTI&feature=related

[nathan]

I first got my Colt Series 80 in 1995. I had no experience whatsoever other than the desire to own a handgun . Then someone told me to get a Ruger .22 first so i can practice more. So i got a Ruger Mk2 bull barreled 5.5 inch . I was lucky to practice in a friend's 100 acre land plinking on tin cans and occasionally hunting on small games.
I probably shot close to 23 000 rds of .22 out of the Ruger . Back in those days the bulk ammo was around $ 7 for 550 rds unlike today it has tripled the price. Suffice to say i had had a good time learning by myself and by reading magazines and watching videotapes in the public library. Having a PC back in the late 90s was unheard of. NOw you can just search on youtube and learn a lot .

Get you a .22 pistol and enjoy the fundamentals of handgunning. Be safe.

[1SOW]

rcmodel, 9mmepiphany and most everyone else, +3

If you develop 'wrong' shooting habits, it's a LOT harder to "UNlearn" them than to learn the right habits the first time.
Getting some instruction will make it way easier and faster to learn the right way the first time.

One thing that helped me concentrate on the fundamentals is the simple, "aim small to miss small".

When my son and I shoot 9mm together, we always end the day by putting 12 gage hulls on the 26yd berm. First it's fun, and second it's a small target at 25 yds. There are no rings or zones around it. Only small targets lined up like in an old-time shooting arcade. It makes shooting carefully FUN.

You'll surprise yourself if you concentrate on the basics, especially grip, front sight and trigger press. You may not hit the hulls often, but your misses will be close, much closer than your 15yd groups. Trust your dominant eye, see the front sight in focus when the shot breaks. When you hit one you get an immediate verification of a good shot and a smile. You CAN see them and hit them.

Whatever you do, ENJOY the process.

[Hangingrock]

What’s the last thing you see before inadvertently closing your eyes during the firing sequence? As an example a semiautomatic pistol if you are not seeing the muzzle flash and or case ejection your eyes are closed. If your eyes are closed at the moment of firing your POA is potentially problematic.

[Dnaltrop]

With a good Model 10 in SA I can pick spent shotgun shells off of twigs and logs at 50' without much thought.

With my M&P, even though I've been shooting DA/SA revolvers most of my life, I still can't perfect a good DA pull... I'm a SA Addict... I've improved immensely however.

Last Weekend, 50', M&P .40, 3 magazines, (45 rounds) half on the center of the Head, Half on COM, 2 round groups. Still pulling to the left a Little bit, but not bad for a guy who's had his dominant hand run through a press. not too many strays Obscenely off target.

http://i909.photobucket.com/albums/ac294/greymtns/IMAG1624.jpg

[Ankeny]

What’s the last thing you see before inadvertently closing your eyes during the firing sequence? As an example a semiautomatic pistol if you are not seeing the muzzle flash and or case ejection your eyes are closed. If your eyes are closed at the moment of firing your POA is potentially problematic. I agree blinking is a bad thing, but I don't see the case eject or the muzzle flash unless I am consciously looking for those things.

[flatlander937]

Thank you guys for all the support/suggestions/links/etc! :D

Have you ruled out eye dominance issues? Your comment about left handed accuracy may hint at this.

The key to shooting consistent groups is consistency in your actions. Sight picture, breath control, trigger squeeze, etc. These are all learnable with practice, but fighting eye dominance can cause that learning curve to become much steeper.

That is one thing that I think really doesn't help... my left eye is the better of my two eyes... I've tried using both left and right eyes(one at a time, I've attempted to use both open but I can't focus worth a darn trying that).


Is it generally better to just shoot handguns with the dominant eye(left eye open, right handed in my case)? Or train with my weak eye and try to work through it?

Thanks again for all the help everybody... and hopefully I will be picking up a Ruger 22/45 within the next month, barring disaster.

[brickeyee]

So when you guys are talking about shooting stuff at 20-25 yards... Is this something that took you thousands and thousands of rounds to get tight/acceptable groups?

More like many tens of thousands of rounds.

Or are these groupings being done with a rest of some kind?

One handed for a long time, but medical problems force me to use two now.

[MrBorland]

The targets posted here remind me to mention something: Use an appropriate target. A silhouette target has it's place, but PPC shooting aside, use a bullseye-type (e.g. round & black, with scoring rings) when shooting for groups or score. A silhouette just offers too little in the way of a precise point of aim ("aim small, miss small").

As far as how big the bull should be? Official NRA targets seem well-calibrated for their respective distances. For example, I used an official B-16 25 yard target to shoot the 25 yard group below (I didn't bother adjusting sights, since I wasn't shooting for score. I used a 6 o'clock hold, even though the sights are set for center-of-mass). For 15 yards, something along the lines of a 50' NRA B-2 target would do nicely. You can go here (http://www.silvercitygunclub.com/targets.html) for printable versions.

One thing that is nice is even though it feels awkward as heck, I am surprisingly accurate shooting left-handed(I'm right-handed). It just takes a second or two longer to verify a good grip before I feel confident pulling the trigger in general.

People often report better accuracy when shooting some one else's gun or using a different hand. The reason is that they're giving these shots the undivided attention and care they ought to be giving all shots. ;)


5 rounds, 25 yards, NRA B-16 target, unsupported, double action:
http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/SW617B-16Freestyle.jpg

[mavracer]

More like many tens of thousands of rounds
I'm probably in the a few hundred thousand range.

two things to work on first is sight picture.
having the front sight someplace in the rear sight is ok for up close and fast but if you want tight groups at distance you need focused sight alingment the spaces on either side of the front sight should be equal and the top of the sights must be a straight line. the target can be blurry hold a perfect sight in the same position on the blob will lead to tight groups.

the second is it's not where the sights are when you start to pull the trigger, it's where they are mili seconds later when the bullet leaves the barrel. so work on pulling the trigger without disturbing sight picture. a cheap laser pointer, some snap caps and a dot on the wall will help tremendously.

[Hangingrock]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/lowflash/IMG_4030.jpg
This is at 25yds standing timed fire IPSC and IDPA targets with a Springfield 1911A1. The load is 200Gr SWC-FMJ – W231 (5.5Grs) –Mixed Cases & WLP. I think one can do credible work within reason on a non Bullseye target. The target on the left two hand hold and the target on the right weak hand hold.

[wildehond]

I have been shooting since I was 6 years old. Don't be to hard on yourself. It will take time. I got into hangunning quite late. But for the first six months I only shot a .22 Colt Woodsman. 200 rounds a weekend. Loved it. That will teach you all the important stuff. Trigger release and follow through.

I think you are on the right track with the idea of getting a .22. Just keep working at it.

[MarkVT]

There's a lot of great info here, thanks guys!

[Ankeny]

Cross dominant shooters (right handed, left eye dominant) are generally best off to use the dominant eye. Just bring the gun over in front of the dominant eye.

The "fundamentals" of shooting are pretty simple. Line the sights up with each other on the target face and cause the round to discharge without disturbing the sight alignment. Simple doesn't mean easy. In addition to the "fundamentals" you have a whole host of things that make up your shooting platform, such as grip, balance, stance, etc. Be sure all of the components that make up your shooting platform are solid before investing a bunch of time and money in practice.

[Bovice]

Don't feel bad about your shooting, everybody has to start at the beginning just like you. When I got started, 15 yards felt like a long way. I couldn't shoot a group either. Take time to do some reading and research and even more time for shooting. Coming onto a forum like this one, you can't use this population as a gauge of what is considered normal. Everybody on here has a huge interest in firearms, and has likely been shooting for a long time. The average person can't shoot 2" at 15 yards, I guarantee it. They'd be lucky to have 50% hit a paper plate at that distance.

Handguns are the hardest to master. Think of a right triangle. The sharpest point of the triangle is the muzzle of your pistol. The target is a point that is directly in front of the muzzle. The third point is where your round actually ends up hitting.

Any movement is going to translate into inches or feet off target. If you remember the geometrical definition of a tangent, tan(theta)=opposite length/adjacent length. For a target that is 45 feet away, that would be tan(theta)=distance off target/45. Let's say that you miss your intended mark by 6 inches, or 0.5 feet.

tan(theta)=0.5/45
tan(theta)=0.0111
arctan(0.0111)=0.64 degrees
theta=0.64 degrees.

To shoot 6 inches off your mark at 15 yards/45 feet, you need only to misalign your muzzle by 0.64 degrees.

Like I said, shooting pistols is hard!

[BCRider]

....but my vision is 20/20 with my contacts in and I really just can't see that far out clearly. And if I could, the white dot of my front sight covers half of the whole target. I changed out the rear sight for a black serrated rear sight from 10-8 Performance because I had problems focusing on the front dot with the 3-dot setup.

From this description in your first post and in your follow up post a few above this one it really sounds like you've got some vision issues going on that are related to your contact lenses. Let me explain since I recently went through the same thing with wearing corrective glasses.

While my glasses did restore my vision to 20-20 the prescription produced a very definite problem with focusing on closer in objects. Anything less than 5 feet away was very hard to see with any clarity. And obviously my arms just AIN'T THAT LONG ! :D I went back to the eye doc and he confirmed that the glasses worked that way. He could add in some shorter focus correction but then I'd be at the same disadvantage for longer distance where all the distant stuff would be fuzzy.

In your case the fact that you can't clearly see a target at 25 yards suggests to me that your contacts are limiting your focusing abilty in the same manner as my glasses. But in your case your eye doc gave you a prescription that is aimed more to closer in and moderate distance to correct your vision for the more day to day detailed "desk" like functioning.

So all in all I'd suggest that you go back to the eye doc and talk things over with him about your prescription and your difficulty in focusing on more distant objects.

The final solution in my case was to go back to not using my prescription glasses. Luckily my left eye is sharp enough that I can see and shoot decently well. Well enough that I can see and put my shots generally within a 6 inch diameter at 25 yards. Which is good enough for the sort of matches I like to shoot. And well enough that with a bag rested rifle I can manage 4 to 5 inch groups at 100 yards using plain iron sights if I have the right sort of target shape to work with my questionable vision.

From your description these sort of results isn't going to happen though. So it sounds like you need to work with that eye doc to make it happen.

Now, to the sights on the gun and how you're using them. With handguns used for target shooting at various distances you want to sight over the lined up upper line of the front and rear sights. The dots on the blade and rear U are only there to aid in quickly aligning the sights in dim lighting. You're not supposed to actually put the dot where you want the hole to appear. The proper way is that when you line up the upper edges of the rear sight and front blade that the bullet hole will be half above and half below the top line of the front blade and centered on the width of the blade. If you switch to using the sights this way you'll be able to see the upper half of the distant target and line it up with the center of the top edge of the front blade for a better shot at hitting where you want to hit.

The other classic handgun hold method is the 6 o'clock or "lollipop" hold where the round bullseye is perched on the top of the front blade. The issue with this is that it's highly distance and bullseye diameter dependent. It's good for serious match bullseye shooting where you're using the same targets at the same distance ALL the time. But if you try this with a variety of targets at a variety of distances you'll end up hitting all over the place. You should STILL have good group sizes if you do. But the groups could be up and down by some amount depending on the overall geometry of the situation.

Other than that it's all about developing a good stable hold and trigger pull. You're actually what most of us would call pretty much a rank beginner with that low a round count. Very likely you could use some coaching on hold and grip technique to achieve a truly steady and non responsive hold. By this I mean your hands don't try to fight the recoil. So many try to anticipate the recoil. We call it "flinching". This never works. The optimum hold is for you to just hold the gun neutrally but with firm support and let it happen.... which isn't as easy as it sounds.

I'm a huge believer in usng a .22 handgun as both a training aid and for it's cheapness at achieving a big amount of trigger time to develop, learn and anchor good habits. But as many will be quick to say it can also entrench bad habits.

Some folks are good at self criticism and will try a lot of things and learn how to do all this successfully on their own or with the aid of written or spoken advice. Others need a hands on coaching session or two from a good instructor to point out where they are messing up.

In your case it sure sounds like some discussion with the eye doc that gave you that contacts prescription is the first step.

For the rest alter how you look over the front sight for starters. Next get on You Tube and search for "hand gun grip" or " pistol gripping". In particular this link for a promo about a Todd Jarret video has a lot of excellent grip hints.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

[Onward Allusion]

flatlander937
Shot groupings at 15+ yards

Yes, it takes thousands of rounds to get good out to 25 yards. Some of it is the gun, most of it is the shooter and trigger control. I still can get everything onto a 10 inch circle at 25 yards off hand (with a combat gun), but as my eyes get older it is becoming harder. At 10 yards, I can still manage to get everything in a 1 to 2" group with the occasional flyer - again, off hand. At 7 yards, it's less than 1". This is with 9mms & 4" barrels. Just yesterday I shot a new 38 spl snub and was able to get everything in about a 3" to 4" group at 7 & 10 yards, again off hand.

My suggestion is to get a revolver with a 4 or 6" barrel in 22LR. It will really get your trigger control down, and IMO it is the most important thing for accuracy. The other thing is speed. Try the 3 in 3 second test or double taps at shorter distances. It's not all about 25 yards or groupings.

[Dnaltrop]

Yes, many thousands of rounds, the good thing is you can build a lot of that muscle memory with a well built .22.

Work on both eyes open, It's best to just get used to shooting at the correct blur in your vision.

Don't be like me and completely ignore one of the two trigger pulls for decades on end. It's a pain in the rear having to teach myself that the DA trigger doesn't break like glass the instant you breathe on it. Work them both till there isn't a difference if you can.

LOTS of dry-fire practice... Stacked coins on the end of the barrel, whatever you can do to make that muzzle rock-steady from the instant you start the pull, 'till recoil pushes it out of alignment.

[JRH6856]

my left eye is the better of my two eyes... I've tried using both left and right eyes(one at a time, I've attempted to use both open but I can't focus worth a darn trying that).

Your strong eye isn't necessarily the one with better vision, it is the one that controls hand eye coordination, IOW, where you point your finger. With both eyes open, look at an object 10-15ft away. maintaining focus on the object, raise your dominant hand to eye level and point at the object. Now without moving your hand, close one eye. If your finger is still aligned directly with the object, the eye that is open is your dominant eye. If your finger seems to move and no longer point at the object, the eye open is your weak eye. Now change eyes to confirm.

Eye dominance has no apparent connection to handedness. Approximately 2/3 of the population is right eye, dominant, 1/3 is left eye dominant and a small number have no dominant eye. Because the dominant eye is relied on for precise positional information, having no dominant eye can make precise aiming very difficult.

[brickeyee]

I'm probably in the a few hundred thousand range.

Believe me, I'm with you.
I am on my third or fourth drywall bucket of used primers (heavy as hell).

It can seem discouraging to someone starting out though.

one thing the OP needs to learn is that no one can focus on the front sight, the rear site, and the target at the same time.

Human eyes are just not that good (even young ones).

Younger ones can shift focus faster, and may be able to get the front and rear sites in focus in bright light, but not the sites and the target.

If you use something like a Merit attahcment you shold be able to get everything in focus, and they are great training aids.

Once you learn how to do it correctly when you CAN see everything, it is a lot easier when you cannot.

The only thing you really need to see is the front site.

it is easy to keep the front centered in the blur of the rear (and part of why aperture sights work) and the top of the front on the center bottom of the bullseye.

Training with a.22 Rf pistol puts a premium on follow through and technique that moves to larger caliber pistols very well (and is cheaper than missing with a bigger gun trying to learn).

Even cheap .22 RF is good enough til you have nice tight groups.
You will get there a little faster using standard velocity over high speed, but when just starting even high speed is probably adequate.

I still firmly believe it is easier to speed up an accurate shooter than 'accurize' a fast shooter.

Only accurate hits count, and you cannot miss fast enough to win.

[tuj]

http://renkucorp.com/jf/pics/guns/izh35m/clean_target_sm.jpg

I've been shooting for 9 months, basically practicing nothing but bullseye. I am an 800 shooter with the 22 and around 670 with the 45 (that's out of 900). I practice usually 2 or 3 times a week, plus dry-fire practice at home.

I would highly recommend you get a dedicated 22 target pistol and practice with that a lot. Get into bullseye competition, find your local club that competes. You will learn a lot by attending competition.

Get on http://www.bullseyepistol.com/ and read about the fundamentals. Shooting 1-handed at 50 yards is really not *that* hard if you follow your fundamentals. Even my wife has managed to get decent scores at bullseye.

It does *not* take hundreds of thousands of rounds to achieve good results. What matters more is understanding your technique, executing it properly, and practicing with purpose.

[brickeyee]

It does *not* take hundreds of thousands of rounds to achieve good results.

That depends on how you want to define "good."

Let us know when you get those "800 shooter with the 22 and around 670 with the 45" up to 900 each, with a nice fat x-count.

And you might give 25 and 50 yards a try.

[tuj]

brickeyee: My target I posted was a B3, which is a 50' target that I shot at 20 yards indoors. If you are familiar with bullseye, you will understand that the B3 target is actually harder than the B8 25-yard sustained fire target. (http://www.indecorous.com/bullseye/rings.html)

I compete in regulation bullseye, so yes, I shoot around 800 with the 22 and around 670 with the 45, slow-fire at 50 yards, sustained at 25. So please don't make the assumption that I don't shoot those distances.

As for shooting 900, well no one has ever done that as far as I know, at least not for a whole 2700 match. I was just trying to relate my experience as a relatively inexperienced shooter and how meaningful and dedicated practice has brought me to a competitive level in the marksman class.

I never claimed to be a master or high master.

[9mmepiphany]

I'll like to offer this picture, from another forum, as to how accurate a gun can be with a bit of practice. This is a SIG X-5 All Around 9mm (DA/SA)...which is a 5" barreled SIG 226...whcih has been slightly tuned by Grayguns (Bar-Sto barrel, tighter rear sight notch) and shooting lead reloads at 50 yards (6 rounds)

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c119/Grayguns/X5groupjpg.jpg

[tuj]

check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PZ4N6YUSbI

[orionengnr]

You are going to wobble and shake.
Just keep adding pressure to the trigger each and every time the front sight is going by the center of the target.
Then repeat as necessary until the gun goes off unexpectedly.
It will go off with the front sight on the target.

RC--
Thank you for yet again putting something into words no-one else has. That is a new way to look at it, and something new to try.
That's why I love this site--I learn something new every day.

[flatlander937]

Agreed, thanks everyone for the tons of great info! Hopefully will get to put it to practice next weekend:cool:

[Martowski]

Don't feel bad at all; just keep practicing. A .22 will do you a lot of good.

I, myself, have always struggled with consistency in handguns. Revolvers come easy; autos not so much (at least for me). But, just a little more practice this year has given good results for me. Just remember that most of what you will focus on is trigger control. My two shooting thoughts lately have been to not tense up my non-trigger fingers when squeezing, and "aim small, miss small" (yes, cheesy line from "The Patriot" but it basically means aim for a small target, not just for some large space).

Here's recent results:

5 shots, 10 yards, unsupported Weaver stance w/ Walther PPQ 9mm:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/Martowski/9mm%20Toys/PPQ28Jan12.jpg

5 shots, 10 yards, unsupported Weaver stance w/ STI Spartan 9mm:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/Martowski/STI%20Spartan/IMGP5478.jpg

5 shots, 25 yards, unsupported Weaver stance w/ STI Spartan 9mm:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/Martowski/STI%20Spartan/IMGP5481.jpg

I'm not a great shot, but will say that I'm one of the most consistent shooters at the range that I've seen. Just take your time and practice; it will come. While there's a lot of truth to the old saying that "it's the Indian, not the arrow," I will say there are some pistols I definitely shoot more accurately than others. Trigger pull has much to do with this; a trigger that breaks cleanly around 3.5 - 4 lbs will have a huge impact on my success.

[flatlander937]

I had to pull this thread up to link for someone else so I figured I'd follow up:

I bought a Ruger 22/45 and have probably put about 2k rounds through it since I bought it.

Using all the help you guys gave me(and also a new contact prescription for my right eye... left stayed the same), my accuracy has improved greatly. When I first started shooting the .22 I found I was flinching slightly, which was way more noticeable with mouse-fart-like recoil. :rolleyes: So I think my shooting grip and trigger pull has probably helped the most. The suggestion of "applying more and more pressure slowly until it goes off" was one of the biggest helps... instead of focusing on pull length(which with a 1911 there isn't much), the pressure made it much better for getting slow accurate shots off.

I can shoot the Ruger out to about 20yds and keep it all in a 10-12in circle now, 8in circle if I'm having a really good day when using CCI Minimags.

The 1911 I've just discovered is shooting just slightly high(about 2in high at 10yds) and right(about 2.5in to the right at 10yds). I think I've just now gotten consistent enough to be able to reproduce the same 3-4in group at 10yds every time for me to notice. So I need to drift my rear sight a bit and I think file a bit off the front to fix the POA/POI relation.


Thanks again to everyone!


Also, I rented a Ruger LCR and was very accurate with it(compared to my 1911)... I was shooting it out to 10yds with 2in groups consistently... I think I need to buy one now as I really like a smooth DA trigger I think.:evil: