[4thHorseman]

After reading another post on the board, I started thinking about broken plastic type guns, Glocks, H&K, XD-9 and the others. These are combat weapons and I was curious on their durability compared to metal frames.
Has anyone seen broken/cracked plastic/delaminated frames? Could you tell us what were the circumstances surrounding it. Dropped, car ran over it, something fell on it, ect. Would a metal frame be damaged as bad if it was subjected to the same kind of abuse?
Thx

[Mil Novecientos Once]

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb.html

[4thHorseman]

Mil Novecientos Once, great site. Never knew about it before you posted it.
Thanks

[mattjoe]

Had a case failure in my usp45 a few years ago, it blew up the entire grip, three pieces of polymer remained.
HK was nice enough to fix it after a few months.
I've seen a number of the same case failures through the years in ipsc, the result was a blown apart magazine, but fully functional gun afterward, on all the steel framed guns.

[Brigrat]

I watched my partners G23 blow up right before my very eyes, but I don't think that had anything to do with the Plastic. Also, I have seen some serious frame cracking on our issued G22's. After the frame cracking started to appear, Glock stepped up to the plate, and replace every frame on every G22 we have, and only made us pay the shipping :confused: So I guess the answer is yes, I have seen plastic guns break, but only Glocks in .40, other than that every plastic gun I have seen has been flawless. As a rule, I would say that Polymer frames tend to be more durable than metal, at least that is what Ruger claims about the P97, and P95. We shall see over time, I am sure!

[Josey]

You ever see an old Grendel?

[Majic]

After the frame cracking started to appear, Glock stepped up to the plate, and replace every frame on every G22 we have, and only made us pay the shipping
Sounds like the infamous upgrades that Glock quietly made.

[George Hill]

Every plastic Taurus model I've seen... I've also seen broken examples of them. Frame cracks and splits, sub-frame pin shears. All for the lack of a slightly stronger spring and maybe a little buffer in there. Sad.
I'm crossing my fingers on the Taurus 24/7... I hope they get it right this time around.
Oh, and yes on the Glocks too, but only thanks to a KB. I don't think I've seen one in 9mm though.

The other poly guns out there... No... I've not seen them busted up. Well... I saw a Walther P99 with a broken poly guiderod. Easy replacement with a metal one.
Why do that?
Make a fine handgun... and then cheapen it like that? That's like...
Buying your dream Cobra 427... and taking it to Walmart for those 29.99 tires.

*shudder*

[denfoote]

One.
Taurus PT-145.
The frame cracked after only 650 rounds!! :rolleyes:

[HankB]

I know a guy who's unhappy that he blew up a Kel-Tec P32 using a load that he claims was "only a little bit hotter than Cor-Bon."

Oops . . . :rolleyes:

[Mil Novecientos Once]

Mil Novecientos Once, great site. Never knew about it before you posted it.

Your welcome. I was looking for the same info as you about a year ago. I think that Glock has the more reported KB's out there. It seems that only the 9mm guns are OK.

[SouthpawShootr]

As far as Glocks go, the only broken frames I've seen were ones that blew up. I did see a picture of a gun that had been accidentally left downrange and took a bullet in the frame. Interesting pic and the gun still worked. Also, saw a pic of someone who blew up an H&K MK23 from using a round that he found on the floor of the range (that had to have hurt). Multiple pictures of Taurus polymer frames with cracks. Can't really think of anything else. The Taurus problem was largely surmised to be due to faulty polymer formulation. In other words it was execution, not design that was the Taurus problem.

[owen]

well, I melted a plastic frame once...the gun still worked, but the dust cover drooped down about 45 deg.

Purpose: To determine if a plastic frame was susceptible to being melted by a user.

Method:
1. Mount Pistol in some sort of stand ( I used a ransom rest bolted so it couldn't move)
2. Load 200 high cap magazines.
3. shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger (I used a motor with a cam)
4. reload ASAP
5. repeat from step 3.

Results:
after about 75 magazines the dust cover started to droop. The estimated time was about 15 minutes. After 120 magazines, the droop had stopped progressing.

Conclusions: An end user could indeed melt the frame, but it would take a bunch of work.


owen

[Tactical]

If my HK frame cracks, I say who cares, it has a life time warranty. :neener:

[NMGlocker]

I think that Glock has the more reported KB's out there. It seems that only the 9mm guns are OK.

Probably because Glock outsells all the other manufacturers by a significant margin.
More pistols in circulation equals more reported Kb's

[mattjoe]

That lifetime warranty is on defects on workmanship.
Don't think it's no big deal if the frame cracks, it took me over 6 months to get mine replaced when it blew up. I was told it wasn't their fault, and the warranty doesnt cover problems like the one I had, as it wasn't a defect in the manufacture.
I had to prove I wasn't using reloads, send the case that blew up and the box the ammo came from, I hope they went after the ammo manufacturer for reimbursement, but I doubt it.
I had a lot of discussions with mostly voice mail over this problem before the gun showed up one day and fell to the porch when i opened up the screen door.
To be fair, it came pretty soon after I was finally able to speak to one certain guy over there, don't remember who it was now as it was so long ago, but I must have spoken to just about everyone or their voice mail.
Just dont place all your faith in a lifetime warranty.

[zahc]

kB

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=788938

[4thHorseman]

What happened here zahc? A KB?

[Mike Irwin]

Early S&W polymer guns had nasty problems with frame cracks.

I've either seen or seen the after effects of about a dozen Glock KBs, all in .40 cal. I've never seen anything like what zahc posted.

Quite frankly, that looks more like a SEVERE overcharge with a fast powder.

[Kestrel]

I've either seen or seen the after effects of about a dozen Glock KBs, all in .40 cal.

Mike,

That's interesting. And this is interesting timing. I have just been wondering about selling my .40 cal Glocks (27, 22, 23) and my .45 cal Glocks (.21, 30, 36), because of persistant things I keep reading about KBs in these calibers. I know people like to defend it and say "it's because there are so many of them out there", but why don't we keep hearing it about the 9mm Glocks?

I would like to know how many of the KBs are with clean guns and good, factory ammo. If it happens with this combination, maybe I should sell mine. I don't know...

Steve

[artherd]

I would like to know how many of the KBs ... <snip> ...good, factory ammo. If it happens with this combination, maybe I should sell mine. I don't know...

Forget cleaning, so long as you use jacketed bullets Glocks do not need to be cleaned in my opinion.


To answer your question, I have NEVER heard of a KB that was not due to using unjacketed lead bullets, and/or a sloppy overcharged reload.

In other words, due to stupid ????, not a design failure.

[HankB]

3. shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger (I used a motor with a cam) By using a motor rather than a hand crank, it sounds like you manufactured a machine gun. :uhoh:

[Tamara]

Forget cleaning, so long as you use jacketed bullets Glocks do not need to be cleaned in my opinion.

Yeah, just ignore that cack in the striker channel. :rolleyes:


I agree, though. Your average pistol shooter, who runs fifty or a hundred rounds of ammo through their GlockSIGetta at the local indoor range once every other month, may never actually need to clean the gun for purely mechanical reasons. Exposed to no environment harsher than the inside of a Doskocil case stored on the top shelf of a closet and seeing an average service life of 500 rounds or less before being forgotten or traded, these guns don't really need much cleaning.

If the gun is intended to be used as a self-defense weapon, however, I'd recommend a slightly stricter maintenance regimen. :scrutiny:

[Majic]

I think Glock made a huge mistake by not reconizing the amount of cast bullets being shot when they designed their .40 caliber. A conventional barrel design would have served just as well, but by not being a gun manufactor I guess his research underestimated a large segment of the shooting population. Most 9mm shooters are jacketed bullet shooters, and many have had problems getting 9mm handguns to perform well with cast bullets. Glock did so well starting out with the 9mm he may have gotten ahead of himself with the .40SW.

[Black Snowman]

Majic brings up a good point. Glock wasn't getting ahead of himself, he was getting ahead of EVERYONE. It was the 1st .40 S&W on the market even beating out Smith and Wesson. When the G22 was created there were no cast .40 bullets. None, zip, zero. It was developed as a service weapon and with jacketted hollowpoints.

No one at the time knew that the .40 would become so popular and see so much target duty, that Lee and Lyman would make bullet molds and that after-market re-loading companies would start making lead ammo. It was something that was easy to miss and why change the line? If one gun has poly rifling why change it on the others?

So Gaston wasn't psychic and shooters ignored warnings of loose military style chambers and poly rifling that could lead easily. So, we get a lot of kB! in Glocks. I've screwed up pretty bad with some of my reloads and mine is still going strong and without incident because I've avoided hot loads and lead. So when I did something stupid like use magnum primers all I got was a warning bulge that told me I'm an idiot and I should stop trying to blow myself up. That was about 6000 rounds ago. I haven't screwed up that bad since . . . well, at least not on my Glock . . . but I'm still shopping for a new charging handle for my R1A1.

[Mike Irwin]

Steve,

Thinking back, I don't think a SINGLE Glock .40 KB with which I'm familiar happened with factory ammo, but I may be wrong about that.

Most people were using early Glock .40s and pushing their reloads to pretty high power levels in once (or more) fired cases.

Some were with cast bullets, some were with jacketed bullets. I no longer remember how many of each, though.

At the time (early to mid 1990s) I think the conventional wisdom was that the Glock had a larger than normal unsupported section of the barrel and .40 S&W brass wasn't as beefy around the case web.

I think both of those issues have been address. I've not heard of a Glock KB in .40 with a newer gun or ammo in some years, and I've NEVER heard of a KB in 9, 10, or .45 that wasn't directly attributable to sloppy loading practices.

[SouthpawShootr]

I read somewhere on the net (I think it was Dean Speir's - sorry if misspelled - website) that there were several documented failures traced specifically to Federal Hydra-Shok factory ammo. Apparently, the case head wasn't strong enough in this ammo to deal with Glocks (relatively) unsupported chambers. Supposedly this has been rectified (but I still won't use .40 hydra-shoks). That said, I still trust both my 22 and 23 and will shoot them until either I die or they do. But I positively will not use reloaded ammunition of any make in my Glocks. I worry about the possibility of weakening of the casehead from multiple reloadings.

[Correia]

Hank, don't worry about Owen manufacturing machine guns. Where he works that is considered pretty normal (and legal) stuff. :)

[artherd]

Tamara- Have you ever had a Glock fail on you due to lack of cleaning?

I didn't say they couldn't benefit from cleaning, but I wouldn't expect any failures to go bang from an otherwise good condition Glock that was not cleaned.

Heck, I give mine a brush and oil the barrel every 1,000 rounds. That's honestly about it.



I assume you're refering to metal bits in the striker channel, I've never seen any signifigant build up there.

Every glock malfunction I have ever seen (albit few) or heard of has been due to over-lube actually.

[Tamara]

Tamara- Have you ever had a Glock fail on you due to lack of cleaning?

Fail on me? No. But I've personally seen probably fifteen or twenty that wouldn't bust a cap 'cause their owners thought they never needed cleaning because Tommy Lee Jones told 'em so. ;)

[artherd]

Tamara- you've probally seen more glocks this year than I'm likely to see in my lifetime, so I'm not going to opiine furthur on the matter, I'll just post what I see with my pistol. (currious question, were all malfunctions due to striker channel grime, or were there other stopages? )

Just opened up my G34 to it's striker channel.

In nearly 2500 rounds, 500 of which were +P+ Winchester Rangers, there's NOTHING in there. Not a thing. Not even the sound of crickets chirping.

I was actually surprised, from the primer marks I'd have expected to find maybe some gold dust. But it was utterly empty. The first cotton swap came out a twinge grey from some trace carbon, and that's it.

Ok, so 2500 rounds ain't squat. And the worst this pistol has seen is a light misting in terms of 'environmental dirt'.

The pistol has always passed the 'firing pin safety' shake test.

[NMGlocker]

The grime in the firing pin channel is almost always related to too much oil.
The oil attracts and holds the powder residue and brass shavings making a nice gooey slime.