Trouble with FC 223 brass


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Jonzer77
January 29, 2012, 04:45 PM
I made a few rounds to try out some 77gr smks that I bought. I used Varget and made some rounds with 21, 22, and 23 grains loaded to 2.260. I used mixed brass that was trimmed to 1.750 but the fc brass was a little short but from what I have read short brass is ok to load.

This is what the case looked like after firing
FC Brass
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/jonzer77/DSC00671.jpg

Everything else
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n268/jonzer77/DSC00672.jpg

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rcmodel
January 29, 2012, 04:57 PM
And the trouble is???

rc

Jonzer77
January 29, 2012, 04:59 PM
Just wasn't sure if this was normal or not.

rcmodel
January 29, 2012, 05:01 PM
Normal What??

I don't see anything different except the military primer pocket crimp on the FC brass that was there before you shot it the first time when it was new.

rc

FROGO207
January 29, 2012, 05:05 PM
The only difference that I see is that the FC brass had crimped primer pockets when new and therefore look different now. That is what those extra rings are around the primer. The primers look OK to me otherwise.

Jonzer77
January 29, 2012, 05:05 PM
I thought something was wrong because the FC brass has purple around the primer and indentations on the brass whereas the other brass looks normal.

rcmodel
January 29, 2012, 05:07 PM
The purple is military lacquer sealer from when Federal loaded it.
The indented ring is the military primer crimp.

I'm not at all sure how you were able to re-prime it without reaming or swaging the old crimp out first.
Which would have also taken off the purple GI sealer too.

Normally, a new primer won't go back in a crimped case without smashing it trying to seat it.

rc

243winxb
January 29, 2012, 05:12 PM
The purple looks like gas leakage from loose primer pockets.

Jonzer77
January 29, 2012, 05:13 PM
The primer went in normally which is why I didn't think it had a crimp. I thought only 5.56 brass had a crimp in the primer pocket so I didn't think the Federal 223 brass had a crimp. I just noticed the FC brass already had that indentation prior to loading it so I answered my own question lol. I prepped and primed a few hundred cases but then wasn't able to get them loaded so I didn't notice the indentation until after they were fired so I got a little worried seeing that. I just checked the rest of the fc brass that I have and it all looks like that. Now I feel silly lol. I am still fairly new to rifle reloading and I tried looking for an example of that in my reloading books so I figured I would ask you guys.

rcmodel
January 29, 2012, 05:18 PM
It looks like FC American Eagle purple primer sealer lacquer to me.

BTW: Where did you get the brass?
Maybe somebody had already swaged the primer pockets and reloaded it once before you got it?

rc

Jonzer77
January 29, 2012, 05:20 PM
Rc,

Thanks for the help, it is much appreciated.

Also, what tool do you use to swage your primer pockets?

Jonzer77
January 29, 2012, 05:21 PM
Most of the brass I have is range pickups.

243winxb
January 29, 2012, 05:22 PM
First photo, bottom row, 2nd from left. When down loaded, edited, inlarged, it looks like gas leakage.

Jonzer77
January 29, 2012, 05:30 PM
I just pulled the bolt and there was a circle of some substance on the bolt face and I cleaned it up and it's gone. I have the FC brass separated from the rest of the brass until I can get something to swage it.

rcmodel
January 29, 2012, 05:32 PM
Was the patch you cleaned it with purple or black?

Purple is primer sealer.

Black is gas leakage.

rc

Jonzer77
January 29, 2012, 05:35 PM
It was black.

I have loaded a few hundred rounds with 223 brass and never had this happen until I used the FC brass. Lesson learned.

243winxb
January 29, 2012, 05:36 PM
RC is right, check the color.

rcmodel
January 29, 2012, 05:39 PM
It was black.Well the stuff in the picture still looks like purple sealer to me.
I think I got some in the basement just like it.

rc

243winxb
January 29, 2012, 05:57 PM
Some F C brass might be a problem. :confused: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/253106_and_34_F_Cand_34__cases____what_s_the_deal_.html I am not reading it again, as i have never had a problem with FC brass. :) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/223web.jpg

Jonzer77
January 29, 2012, 06:13 PM
Thanks for the link 243.

What do you use to swage the primer pockets?

243winxb
January 29, 2012, 07:22 PM
I dont have crimped brass. No swage.

rcmodel
January 29, 2012, 07:27 PM
I use a RCBS Primer Pocket Swager kit.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/447022/rcbs-primer-pocket-swager-combo

The Dillon Super-Swage is way better if you can afford it and have mass quanities of brass to swage.
http://www.dillonprecision.com/content/p/9/pid/25263/catid/8/Super_Swage_600

For small quantities of brass just ream it out with a chamfering tool or Primer pocket reamer.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/501588/hornady-primer-pocket-reamer-tool-small

rc

NeuseRvrRat
January 29, 2012, 07:38 PM
in your pics, that purple/black/whatever stuff appears to be on the surface of the primer. unless you put a sealant on your primers after re-priming, then it's not primer sealant. that really only leaves gas leakage as a possibility.

however, that FC brass was clearly crimped when new. either someone removed the crimp before you got it or you were able to seat new primers anyway, which i hear is fairly common on some types of brass. i haven't personally used any crimped brass that could be primed without removing the crimp, but plenty of folks report doing so. the fact that it could be loaded without removing the crimp would lead me to believe that batch of FC has relatively loose primer pockets, which would also explain the gas leakage.

Hondo 60
January 30, 2012, 01:26 AM
To decide what tool to use, you have to ask your wallet.

You can do it REALLY, REALLY cheap, using a Lee Chamfer and Deburring Tool $3.79
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/389104/lee-chamfer-and-deburring-tool

or you can spend $100 or more.
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/25263/catid/8/Super_Swage_600

kingmt
January 30, 2012, 06:33 AM
I have a CH4D swager & ram prime tool that cost $40 & I'm very happy with it.

If you shoved the primers past the crimp you probably undersized the primers. They look like they are backed out some which I thought was low pressure but after reading down the thread I believe you may have forced the primers past the crimp.

Jonzer77
January 30, 2012, 02:57 PM
Thank you everyone for your help!

I am glad that I learned this lesson before I did any damage to myself or by rifle.

Does anyone have any experience with the Dillon swager? I have heard that you have to sort the brass to make sure you swage the brass correctly. I have A LOT of 5.56 brass that I will start using for my 77gr loads.

rcmodel
January 30, 2012, 03:32 PM
You have to sort the brass with about any swager.

The case has to be supported with a rod from the inside.
And different brands of brass have different web thickness you have to adjust the rod for.

Rest assured if you want the best one on the market, the Dillon is it though.

rc

MtnCreek
January 30, 2012, 03:43 PM
You also need to have a flash hole de-bur tool handy when using the super swage.

Also, I saw one in the 'sales' thread this morning for around $80. Not a bad deal. (nevermind; that was gone in an hour!).

Jonzer77
January 30, 2012, 04:03 PM
I think I will end up going with the Dillon, especially after seeing this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaZHeSUqQbk

kingmt
January 30, 2012, 04:23 PM
I think I will end up going with the Dillon, especially after seeing this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaZHeSUqQbk
Looks like way to much work. Way to much stroke need for suck a simple task.

helotaxi
January 31, 2012, 03:05 AM
The stroke is less that using the RCBS tool on your press and the mechanical advantage is better than your press. The swage iron moves about 1/4" The effort is minimal and it takes only a few seconds per case. Do a couple hundred cases at a time to avoid fatigue or a repetitive motion injury. It's almost impossible to screw up unlike using a chamfer tool and it is consistent as all get out.

ArchAngelCD
January 31, 2012, 04:14 AM
I have the RCBS Combo Tool and it works extremely well on a Single Stage press and for only ~$30.

I just bought a Forster Case Trimmer (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/614276/forster-original-case-trimmer-kit) and then found out they have bits for dealing with military crimps. All you need to do is buy a centering bit and a cutter bit. Once you set the depth every case comes out exactly the same and you can't ruin the pocket accidentally. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting buying the Case Trimmer just to fix the primer pockets. I needed a case trimmer and then added the tools for the primer pockets for under $26. (Primer Pocket Chamfer Tool (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/629035/forster-original-classic-power-case-trimmer-primer-pocket-chamferring-tool) for $18.79 and the Primer Pocket Center (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/628603/forster-original-classic-power-case-trimmer-primer-pocket-center) for $7 more.) They also have small and large primer pocket cleaners for $8 each but I think that's going too far... lol

I can't believe how many tools they have for that little lath. There are case mouth cutting 3 in 1 Carbide cutting tools, inside neck reamers, outside neck turning pilots, universal hollow pointers and a few other tools too. I'm glad I bought this Forster Case Trimmer...

helotaxi
January 31, 2012, 05:02 AM
Other than my 550B, the Forster case trimmer might be the best money I've spent on reloading equipment. I already had the Dillon Super Swage, though, so the primer tools for it weren't needed.

kingmt
January 31, 2012, 06:26 AM
I have never used the RCBS or the Dillon. The CH4D is takes no effort to use. It swages or primes on top of the press in the shell holder. There is no need for a full stroke of the press. On my press 3" of handle travel does the job & gives the clearance to change cases. I knock the swaged one out into a bucket with the crinped one.

For $40 I have a LP/LR & SP/SR tool that swages & primes. They only charge $5 to ship USPS.

I would see how much they would charge to include another ram so you don't have to change out the primeing stud. It isn't a big job but my fingers don't like little parts.

Once set up you can't over swage or prime. It is so easy I let my 3 year old do the swageing & 6 & 8 year old prime.

Everything comes in a nice little case. There is no reason for me to try anything different.
..............
What is with the rubber band on the Dillon?

MtnCreek
January 31, 2012, 08:02 AM
What is with the rubber band on the Dillon?

Looks like that guy put a rubberband and a cord on that super swage so that operating the lever would move the case into position.

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