New USMC unarmed combat system


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Preacherman
February 9, 2004, 12:34 AM
I'm sure many of us have heard of the USMC's new system, but this is the most detailed article on it that I've found to date.

From National Defence magazine (http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?Id=1263):

November 2003

Marines Sharpen Their Skills In Hand-to-Hand Combat

by Harold Kennedy

Moving in formation at a double-time pace, the Marines of the Basic School’s Echo Company—sweating in the early morning sun—formed a circle on helicopter Landing Zone 6, a training field at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Va. They stacked their M16 rifles and turned their attention to the instructors in the center of the field.

The Basic School is where recently minted second lieutenants learn the finer points of being Marine officers, and the men and women of Echo Company were here to begin their training as part of the new Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, known as MCMAP.

MCMAP is an effort to put a sharper edge on the Marines’ ability to fight hand-to-hand. The program is a new form of martial arts, a blend of many Asian systems, including kung fu, tae kwon do, karate, Thai boxing, jujitsu and judo, plus bayonet and knife-fighting techniques.

As part of MCMAP, the Marines are acquiring a new bayonet that is more useful for knife fighting than the current version. (related story p. 70)

According to Gen. James L. Jones, the former Marine commandant who established the program in 2000, MCMAP is “a natural extension” of the Corps credo, “Every Marine a rifleman.” Like marksmanship training, he said, “this program provides our Marines with additional tools that they can use on the battlefield.”

Everybody Trains

All 173,000 active-duty Marines and 58,000 reservists—everybody from the commandant down to the newest recruit, male and female alike—are required to receive the MCMAP training. Like many Asian disciplines, the MCMAP training enables Marines to earn the right to wear a progression of different-colored belts, including tan, gray, green, brown and six degrees of black.

By October 1, all Marines were supposed to complete at least the lowest level of instruction, qualifying them to wear a tan belt, said Maj. John M. Bourgault, deputy director of the Martial Arts Center of Excellence, a division of the Marine Corps Combat Development Command at Quantico. MACE, which conducts martial arts classes at the Basic School, also coordinates the spread of the program throughout the service.

“We’re almost there,” he told National Defense. “There are a few cats and dogs in remote locations who don’t have access to instructors. But not many.”

The training now is part of the curriculum at the Marine boot camps at Parris Island, S.C., and San Diego, as well as the Basic School. Classes also are being conducted at Marine garrisons across the United States and around the world.

In addition, instructors are being dispatched to isolated units in places like Camp Babylon, Iraq, and the Marine security detachment at the U.S. Embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan. Classes are being conducted even aboard ships such as the USS Iwo Jima Amphibious Readiness Group, which this summer participated in U.S. peacekeeping efforts in Liberia.

Classes for the tan belt involve 27.5 hours of training, usually spread over two weeks. In this introductory course, Marines learn fundamental physical, mental and character disciplines.

In the physical arena, they study hand-to-hand techniques, including punches, kicks, throws, use of the rifle-mounted bayonet and knife fighting. They learn how to fight under battlefield conditions, such as moving on rough ground, approaching, closing with and engaging an opponent and fighting while fatigued.

Extensive use is made of obstacle, confidence and stamina courses, Bourgault said. Rough-terrain movement and combat swimming often precede fighting drills. Supplemental combat conditioning involves rope climbing, bodyweight squats, wind sprints and buddy carries.

Many of the exercises are organized around teams, Bourgault said. “That way, they all have to pitch in together. If one guy fails, he lets down his squad. He lets down his buddies.”

Mental studies focus on the development of the combat mindset, said Master Gunnery Sgt. Ricardo Sanders, the senior staff noncommissioned officer at MACE. “Our program teaches more than the ability to kill people,” said Sanders, who is just back from Afghanistan. “It teaches the mental characteristics necessary to succeed in combat. We want people out there who can think, who can make sound decisions under combat conditions, not just killing machines.”

To help prepare student mindsets, they discuss warrior cultures of the past. Recommended reading is Steven Pressfield’s novel, “Gates of Fire,” the story of the Spartans, who in 480 BC fought to the death at Thermopylae to block a Persian invasion of Greece.

Students also study the Zulus, who stood off the British Army in South Africa, and the Apaches, who fought the U.S. cavalry for decades. Another focus is on the Marine Raiders, who conducted commando-style hit-and-run missions behind Japanese lines during World War II.

The program emphasizes the importance of strong personal character. The cornerstones of character are the Marine Corps’ core values—honor, courage and commitment—Bourgault said. Classes discuss conflict resolution, seeking and accepting responsibility, and team-based approaches to all aspects of Marine Corps life.

The training discusses Marines who—throughout the service’s 228-year history—won the Congressional Medal of Honor. “We make the point that these are average guys,” said Bourgault. “Yet, they did extraordinary things. You can see the goose bumps pop up.”

Typically, the core values are discussed immediately after physical training. “We’ve found that the message sticks better after the students have been exercising and their senses are still heightened,” he said.

After receiving their tan belts, Marines are required to continue training, earning higher levels of belts. By this time next year, all current personnel will be expected to qualify for their gray belts, which requires 46 additional hours of training. Eventually, all infantrymen will complete a 65-hour program to wear the brown belt. Other Marines in combat-arms job specialties will train to the green belt, with its own 55-hour regimen.

Sergeants and above, who can complete 71.5 hours of training, can qualify for a first-degree black belt. Promotion to the second through the sixth black-belt levels is based upon maturity, involvement in unit training, advanced skills, martial arts studies and participation in civilian martial arts programs.

Asian Arts

In developing MCMAP, the Marines “borrowed from established systems that were already out there,” Bourgault said. Some of these systems, such as Chinese kung fu, are thousands of years old, he said. MCMAP borrows from systems developed in many Asian countries, including Japan, Korea and Thailand, he said.

Most were designed as ways for unarmed civilians to defend themselves against armed adversaries. In contrast, MCMAP “is a weapons-based martial art,” Bourgault said. “Usually, we prefer that our Marines use weapons in combat. Our motto is ‘one mind, any weapon.’

“If you can shoot your enemy, then shoot him. If you can’t do that, stick him with your bayonet, butt stroke him with your rifle butt, ram him with your rifle barrel,” Bourgault said. “If you can’t use your rifle, use your knife.

“If you can’t do that, find something—a weapon of opportunity. As I look around my office, I see a stapler, a coffee mug, a pencil holder, a phone cord. If I had to, I could use any of those to kill you.”

Marines also learn to kill with their bare hands, if necessary, said Bourgault. Pressure applied to certain points along an opponent’s neck, for example, can cut off an opponent’s air supply. A swift, violent twisting of an enemy’s neck can break the spinal cord.

Even if you have a loaded rifle, you may not be in a position at times to use it against an enemy, noted Sanders. “If an enemy charges you from an unexpected direction, you may not have time to swing your weapon around,” he said. “Also, you may have to kill an enemy with minimal noise. Or you may need to subdue an opponent with non-lethal force.”

Unlike some traditional martial arts, MCMAP does not involve intricate, dance-like movements or attention-getting techniques—such as breaking tiles with your bare hands—Bourgault said. “Everything we teach is directly related to combat,” he said. “Nothing is for show.”

Because the training is designed to prepare Marines for combat, sometimes injuries occur. During one session, for example, a second lieutenant was accidentally hit on the side of his head, sending a trickle of blood down his cheek. Slightly dazed, he was taken aside for first aid.

To minimize injuries, training is monitored closely. In bayonet training, Marines fight each other with wooden rifles with blunt ends. Thrusting drills are conducted at slow and medium speeds, one, two and three assault steps from the target. Performances are critiqued thoroughly by instructors.

Throughout the training, if a student has received a disabling blow, he or she is taught to hold out both hands to the opponent, back away and say, “Stop.” A Marine who has reached the limits of his or her tolerance may also “tap out” by tapping on the opponent, on the mat or ground or saying, “Stop.”

All Marines are required to complete the training, Bourgault explained. “The requirements are exactly the same for women,” he said. “There are two dozen women in Echo Company, and they do as well as the men.”

MCMAP is the most recent form of close-combat training for the Marines, but they have engaged in hand-to-hand fighting since their earliest days. During the Revolutionary War—armed with cutlasses, muskets and pistols—they swarmed from ships of the Continental Navy to capture enemy ships at sea. In those days, training was informal at best.

In the early part of the 20th century, the Corps began a more organized approach toward combat training, teaching marksmanship, bayonet skills, boxing and wrestling. The service encouraged competition between athletic teams of shooters, boxers and wrestlers.

In the 1930s and later, during World War II, the Korean and Vietnam Wars, Marines stationed in the Far East increasingly encountered Asian martial arts and included some of those elements in their training.

In the 1980s, the Corps adopted the Linear Infighting Neural-override Engagement, or LINE, system of combat. LINE was a standardized system of close-quarter fighting designed to be taught to company and battalion-size units.

Like many of its predecessors, however, LINE was a system of unarmed self-defense. Not all Marines were required to receive it.

MCMAP—weapons-based and aimed at all Marines—is designed to change all of that, Bourgault said.

To conduct the training, two levels of instructor cadres have been created. The first—martial arts instructor, Military Occupational Specialty 8551—must be a corporal or above who successfully completes a MCMAP course. A MAI can train Marines to one level below the belt that he or she holds. In other words, a MAI who wears a green belt can train Marines to the tan and gray belt levels.

The second level—martial arts instructor trainer, MOS 8552-must be a sergeant or above to attend the MAIT course at Quantico. A MAIT can train Marines as MAIs and qualify ordinary Marines to hold a belt at one level below the one that he or she holds.

Much of the schooling is low-tech, done on exercise fields such as LZ 6, as military training has been conducted for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years. Now under construction at Quantico is a $1.3 million MACE facility, with space for classrooms, offices, weight room, matted area, showers and laundry, scheduled for completion next summer.

The Marines in 2002 awarded a $3 million contract to Allied Industries, of Jamestown, N.Y. The contract called for Allied to put together 264 platoon-sized martial arts training kits for the Marines, according to Allied’s business operations director, Gregg Bender.

Each kit, assembled on three large pallets, included “all kinds of training tools,” such as helmets, pugil sticks, leg and arm guards and groin protectors, Bender said.

To further encourage enthusiasm for martial arts among Marines, the Corps is developing a MCMAP combat sports program similar to its boxing, wrestling and marksmanship teams. In this program, combat sports teams would compete in striking, grappling and wooden bayonet fighting.

Bourgault said the program is proving to be popular among Marines. “These guys joined the Corps because they wanted to be tough,” he said. “They wanted to be really elite. This program gives them a chance to do that.”

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JShirley
February 9, 2004, 01:20 AM
Good article.

Thanks.

Ed Straker
February 9, 2004, 05:31 AM
Very good article. Thanks for posting. USMC MOS 5547/5537

Herk
February 9, 2004, 09:25 AM
That is awesome! I'm so glad that the marines have put this into effect. Hope the army follows suit.

Any idea what kind of knife they are being issued?

Soap
February 9, 2004, 09:34 AM
I rather like their new bayonet. It seems solidly constructed and it is made from good steel. The balance also isn't bad at all. Here is some info:

http://www.1sks.com/store/ontario-us-marine-corps-multi-purpose-bayonet.html

Mulliga
February 9, 2004, 07:55 PM
To help prepare student mindsets, they discuss warrior cultures of the past. Recommended reading is Steven Pressfield’s novel, “Gates of Fire,” the story of the Spartans, who in 480 BC fought to the death at Thermopylae to block a Persian invasion of Greece.

Molon Labe! :)

It's always nice to see Marines getting more training. Good post.

Of course, for every bit of training the armed forces get, civilians have to be ready to match it...;)

444
February 9, 2004, 10:28 PM
When and with what uniform do they wear these belts ?

brownie0486
February 10, 2004, 03:28 PM
444,

I wouldn't count on em wearing the belts obtained while in uniform of the day if thats what you meant.

No more so than someone in MA wearing the belts in public without the dojo uniform on.

Brownie

FitchHall
February 10, 2004, 03:46 PM
The MCMAP, otherwise known as "Marine Kuan Do," is a vast improvement over the Line Training of years past. The MCMAP training has lasting effects on our Marines in the way of the "strong body - strong mind" combination.

The belts are worn with all variants of the camouflage utility uniforms on a daily basis. The belts are only visible when we conduct physical training in "boots and 'utes" (boots and utility trousers). All MCMAP training is conducted in boots and 'utes, so it is natural to "partner up" with someone at the same level. Testing is done to advance in levels and routine proficiency training is mandated.

Overall, it is a great system.

444
February 11, 2004, 01:06 PM
Cap, the reason I am asking is that I have a friend who was a Marine in the 1950s and who was also involved in the martial arts. I mentioned this article to him and he was interested in more details.
Is this belt the same belt as you would normally wear to hold up your pants, only a different color, or is it like a martial arts belt ?

VaughnT
February 11, 2004, 09:11 PM
Would I be wrong in suggesting something similar to this be incorporated in to our school system? Confidence-building and such should be a major concern of parents and teachers, but I could be wrong.

Very glad to see that the USMC is getting tougher. I've always heard the Air Force guys complaining that their boot camp wasn't nearly as nice as that vacation to Parris Island that Marine Recruits get.

bill2
February 22, 2004, 09:36 PM
I'm curious about other branches of the military? What type of training, if any do they receive? How about special forces? I was in the Army in the mid 1970's (combat engineers), and never received a minute of hand to hand or bayonet training? usually when you see some hokey action movie, the start is some ex-Green Beret or SEAL who is some martial arts master. Does anyone know what the military really does for hand to hand, and knife fighting training?

Thanks

FPrice
February 22, 2004, 09:46 PM
"I'm curious about other branches of the military? What type of training, if any do they receive?"

I am under the impression that the unconventional units do train in hand-to-hand combat much more than other units do. But from what I have seen from outside these units, many of the personnel attracted to them also train on their own much more than more conventional units.

JShirley
February 22, 2004, 09:59 PM
Army is moving to BJJ-style jujutsu. As someone else in my platoon commented, "Just enough to get you into trouble." :)

fix
February 22, 2004, 10:21 PM
The proper way to kill the enemy is with bombs, artillery, mortar fire, machine gun fire, grenade blasts, and rifle fire..preferably in that order. Hollywood fantasies aside, the fighting man who finds himself alone and totally unarmed, should revert to SERE training rather than any MA training.

JShirley
February 22, 2004, 10:22 PM
No argument from me.

I think it especially ludicrous to teach a groundfighting system.

Spark
February 22, 2004, 10:43 PM
Yeah, because hand to hand combat hasn't occured in every single conflict we've been in or anything. Heck, you could never have a jam or be overrun or anything. :rolleyes:

JShirley
February 22, 2004, 10:48 PM
As you well know, Kevin, hand-to-hand and bayonet are taught to instill aggressiveness. In the Army, at least, BJJ is close to the last system I think should be taught if self-defense was the actual goal, TKD being the last.

Were I to hazard a guess as to why it's been chosen, I would guess:
1) Because it's in vogue, due to UFC;
2) Because it's easier to train without hurting the troops...which doesn't exactly instill confidence, now, does it?

John

fix
February 22, 2004, 10:53 PM
Well since you put it :rolleyes: that way, let me clarify.

99% of the time, our men kill the enemy with steel. Therefore, 99% of the training focuses on this. I'll reiterate, if a fighting man finds himself alone and unarmed he needs to be thinking E&E, not doing a Jacki Chan impersonation.

Spark
February 22, 2004, 11:00 PM
If he finds himself alone & unarmed, he should deal with the situation as appropriate. Running isn't always appropriate.

As for why they are teaching BJJ, maybe because it's effective? Much as I'd like, Kelly Worden can't personally supervise each troop's training. Giving each one a black belt in Kali / Escrima isn't practical. BJJ is a good base for skills. BJJ is pretty effective. Teaching Joe that he can kick some ??? when put into a situation where he doesn't have his weapon is a good thing.

We train our soldiers to be soldiers. 99% of the time they aren't in combat. Should we, by that reasoning, emphasize lawn mower drills & close order drill instead of BRM & ITT?

444
February 22, 2004, 11:01 PM
IMO based on absolutely nothing I think that fighting is only a very minor part of this whole thing. I think this accomplishes several things: #1) a mandatory PT program that doesn't seem as much like PT (Physical fitness can be fun). #2) instill a great sense of badassedness in the soldier (attitude, confidence in themselves), #3) instill the "warrior mindset, even in troops that are REMFs #4 might be a good stress/anger management tool ............................................
I see nothing wrong with it at all. I think it is a very positive step.

If some day someone is required to fight someone with their fists and this training pays off, so much the better.

fix
February 22, 2004, 11:10 PM
I don't have any problem with the training either, FWIW. What I have a problem with, is this idea that all troops should be martial arts experts. I don't think anyone participating in this thread feels that way, but there are a lot of folks out there that do. Most of them have gleaned all their knowledge of combat from Hollywood.

Spark
February 22, 2004, 11:14 PM
Experts? No. But they should be well trained in every aspect of their chosen profession, right?

Hell, I know that I'd have been happy with one or two less programmed "Push up / sit up improvement" PT sessions if I had been getting good combatives training. I'm sure I wouldn't have been the only one.

Like previously stated, H2H is good training. It improves skills. It improves self confidence. It's got combat applications. What's not to like?

JShirley
February 22, 2004, 11:15 PM
Kevin,

2 1/2 days worth of BJJ training is setting up our troops for failure, should they ever be forced to use their "training". The time would have been more effectively employed as an extension of bayonet training, using E-tools and rocks. What we are teaching our troops, is how to tie themselves up with a single opponent on the ground. Like I said, about the last thing (other than high kicks) they should be taught.


444, BJJ isn't teaching troops how to fight with their fists! Essentially, neutered match techniques are being taught- techs made to win supervised fights are being shown with modifications making them even less effective. I agree with the spirit of the program the Marines are teaching, and I believe they are actually training enough that it may have some effectiveness, though I believe the confidence and aggression gained are the primary goals.

John

Gray_Fallen
February 22, 2004, 11:22 PM
As for the new bayonets, I have handled a couple - they are available from most knife retailers right now - they are EXCELLENT.
Made by Ontario Knife Company, using either standard 1095 high carbon steel, or their proprietary Diamondite Enhanced 3-V steel. Either way, good steels.
They MOVE like a fighting knife should move, they have a long sharpened clip point like a fighting knife should have, they are thick and solidly made, and ground well, sharp and with good geometery for hacking/slashing and thrusting both. Handling one there is no doubt that they are fighting knives, they just move like it. Really great.
I am actuall yprobably going to be picking a couple up fairly soon - make a nice multi-purpose BOB knife.

I think the training is valuable. Even if just as a psychological booster. It certainly doesnt hurt anything, and it may very well save some lives - on the battlefield or off.
Woe the mo-fo who attacks the Marine on leave, eh? Self defense in civilian conditions isnt like battle - so any Marine that faces an attack in that situation, will have a good handle on it.
In combat, in urban areas, house clearing, etc. its easy enough to get swamped, get a guy inside your weapon, and have to go hands on with him - if it wasnt a concern, it wouldnt be a common type of training for police and civilians, eh?

And yeah... BJJ is one of the suckiest things the Army could train - hopefully they will take some lessons from the Marines.

G1FAL
February 22, 2004, 11:50 PM
I agree with the spirit of the program the Marines are teaching, and I believe they are actually training enough that it may have some effectiveness, though I believe the confidence and aggression gained are the primary goals.

This is actually some pretty decent training. And although it starts off mild, after a while it's 'full speed', where if you dont block right, that punch lands, and it HURTS, because the guy you're fighting is trying to hurt you. I've seen a few guys get hurt while doing the HTH training.

Just because we have all these fancy bombs and planes doesnt mean that the basics of combat should be forsaken. We've got bombs that will destroy pretty much anything, hit bunkers buried deep within the earth, but we still train in trench clearing. You never know when you'll need to know how to do something. Its not really THAT foreign of a concept for a small unit to be overrun and have to fight with knives, fists, e-tools, etc.

Gray hit on something pretty well: a lot of combat nowadays is urban stuff, 'peacekeeping' and so forth. When the bad guy is in the next room, its very possible for you to be eyeball to eyeball before very long, and your squadmates not be able to fire for fear of hitting you. Being able to kick the snot out of the BG is very important.

And those who menetioned mindset and warrior spirit hit on something important, too.

Blackhawk 6
February 25, 2004, 05:40 PM
While I am critical of the Modern Army Combatives program, I have been through the Level 1 Instructor's program and feel qualified to comment on the rationale behind its design.

For years we were taught basic strikes, kicks and throws from a variety of martial arts. No one that attended an Army hand to hand session walked away believing that he would be able to actually use the techniques to defend himself. It was not because the techniques were ineffective, but rather because it took time to develop proficiency with the technique before one could employ it effectively. Therefore, one of the criteria for the new system was that the technique needed to be effective with a minimum amount of training.

The next issue dated back to the 1850's, the amount of time devoted to training. It may shock some people but infantryman do not show up every day and spend all there time preparing to kill people. The reasons are beyond the scope of this post but the bottom line is training time is a premium and little if any is devoted to combatives. Therefore, the next criteria for the new system was that it could not require significant amounts of time to maintain proficiency.

The third issue is closely related to the second. Those involved with the development of the system look at our rather pathetic hand to hand program and compared it to the Russian Sambo program. Sambo competitions were regularly conducted throughout the Russian armed forces and since everyone received the training, everyone could participate. Our Army had been conducting "Boxing Smoker's" but only those soldiers with previous boxing experience would generally compete leaving the vast majority out of the competition. Everyone enjoys winning a medal, patch, whatever and as a result they pursue proficiency in their free time. Therefore, a criteria was that the system had to be that it supported competition at the unit level.

A final consideration was that while boxing, Muay Thai, pancrase, kung-fu, whatever are all effective systems, they either require the user to wear excessive amounts of protective equipment (usually with associated disadvantages) or the techniques cannot be performed full power, at combat speed against an opponent.

Brazilian jui-jitsu was identified as a system that met these criteria. Having perused some books written by the Gracie's, I see that we are teaching basic, intermediate and advanced techniques. The techniques selected have been assembled into combinations that allow the soldiers to conduct ten or fifteen minutes of Combatives training at the end of PT. As mentioned earlier unit competitions are aslo able to be organized to promote profficiency. Whatever your opinion, it is certainly better that what we have had in the past.

It should also be pointed out that the instructors frequently point out that the guy who wins the hand to hand fight is the one whose buddy shows up with a rifle. Even the most passive graduate of the combatives program possesses sufficient skill to keep himself alive for a minute or two

As I mentioned earlier I am not a tremendous fan of the system. Rolling around on the ground with a bad guy while my grenades, knives, pistol etc. are all within reach is not my idea of a preferred course of action. I supplement my combatives training with a system of simple strikes that supports weapon retention and personnel control. That said, I have no doubt that if a fight does go to the ground I will emerge victorious.

Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

JShirley
February 25, 2004, 09:59 PM
Even the most passive graduate of the combatives program possesses sufficient skill to keep himself alive for a minute or two

With all the respect due to your rank and grade, I disagree. I am certainly NOT the "most passive" MA student, nor was I the most passive infantry recruit. I was paired up with a recruit who was about 5" taller and maybe 18 lbs heavier than I. We started upright, jockeyed for position for a few seconds, and then he lunged forward, while grabbing me.

I went with his momentum, applying a Te Makura sacrifice throw, but letting him out of the throw just before impact, so he wouldn't hurt himself.

He had me locked up in an unbreakable choke two seconds after he hit the ground. I would have been unconscious in less than a minute. Yes, I did find out that he was an accomplished wrestler, but I- and, I am certain, 99.99999% of those who might have faced him, would have done better to just try to knock his head off.

Sir, I do understand the value of a system that will encourage participation, but I believe this system sets our soldiers up for failure, if used in actual combat.

Respectfully,

John

Blackhawk 6
February 25, 2004, 10:55 PM
I believe this system sets our soldiers up for failure, if used in actual combat.

You and I agree on this point, to an extent. I do not believe going to the ground with an opponent is the best course of action. However, our opinion aside, several soldiers trained in the new combatives program have prevailed in hand to hand encounters in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

My point was that should a soldier find himself on the ground, he is fairly well-equipped to deal with the problem. Perhaps I overstated how well-equipped the individual is. Perhaps not.

I can't speak to your experience, but I can speak to mine. I have a limited martial arts background. The sum total of my grappling skills are the result of my military training. I frequently force soldiers who are younger and larger, some of whom have extensive wrestling backgrounds, to submit. By the end of the training program I am frequently hard pressed to get a submission in a two minute bout.

In all fairness, the criteria used in the development of the system were good. I have yet to see an alternative offered that operates within the constraints that the current system does.

Again, my view point is that while well-conceived and of some utility, in reality the combatives program is incomplete and fails to address the full range of requirements that soldiers will most likely face on the battlefield.

I hope this clarifies my position.

Harold Mayo
February 25, 2004, 11:31 PM
What will be interesting is when this "new" system filters out to the general public as Marines leave active duty. There is little doubt in my mind that some black belts in this style are gonna open dojos.

JShirley
February 26, 2004, 12:53 AM
I hope this clarifies my position.

It does, thanks. I think perhaps our stances and beliefs on this may not be so different.

Since I'm not in uniform anymore, though, I just wanted to do this. :neener:

:)

John

Teufelhunden
February 27, 2004, 02:15 AM
Throughout the training, if a student has received a disabling blow, he or she is taught to hold out both hands to the opponent, back away and say, “Stop.”

Have yet to see that! When we went through it, most of the guys that took blows moving a little too fast expressed their desire to cease the combat by collapsing to the earth in pain. Talking with other Marines in other units, it wasn't unusual to break ribs, noses, and leg joints during the training, not from incorrectly applied techniques, but from properly applied techniques. The training schedule had to be adjusted shortly after the program's inception to slow us down and attempt to keep injuries to a minimum.

I'm very impressed with MCMAP. The program levels incorparate a good PT session in the middle to burn you out. As it was explained to me, the reason for this wasn't just for the execise benefits, but to also clearly demonstrate to the participating Marine when they went back to the strikes and locks that they work on the strength of the technique, not on the strength of the Marine. The movements are simple and logical, and much less linear than the old LINE training was. I'm glad to have another weapon in my arsenal...

-Teuf

Citadel99
February 29, 2004, 03:18 PM
Blackhawk6,

I agree with you whole heartedly. Is it a perfect program? No. But I have yet to see one. The quick program that basic trainees go through gives them a basic knowledge of some choke holds and techniques. More importantly it opens the door to further training. At most of our posts there are comabative classes at night.

In my opinion you're betteroff taking it than not. I'm a better fighter for doing so. And agreed, I can't put on a number on how many times I've heard "the guy that wins the fight is the guy with a buddy with a gun."

Also, bayonet atacks with an M4? Not my cup of tea.

Mark

Ghost
May 9, 2004, 05:56 PM
You know, just as an aside, recently the modern Army ground-fighting stuff did not fare too well against the old USMC LINE training. My fiancée's reserve unit ended up having me come to a pre-deployment "self-defense" refresher class to evaluate it, be a practice dummy, and add pointers even though I told them that I was never an instructor, just a regular 0311 whose unit put a lot of emphasis on practicing HtH.

Their unit instructor had been through whatever Army school is necessary to teach their stuff, and he was serving as a police officer before he was called up. The guy outweighed me by about 50 pounds of muscle and moved pretty well, but the problem was their system has a mindset of "defense" instead of going on the offensive. He would just get into his stance and wait for me to make a move (of course, this could be ingrained from his police training, the whole "level of proper force response" thing). In the one instance he managed to start out with me on the ground so we could demonstrate their ground fighting techniques, he managed to get me to tap out, he wrapped me up and had me locked out fairly quickly, but when we would start from standing and he would just have me advance any attack, he did not do well at all. During one instance, he moved into a strike and we had to take about a 5-minute break so he could relearn how to breathe after I hit him in the throat a little harder than I had intended to. Most of the Soldiers were very surprised that all of the basic stuff I used had been taught to me in boot camp and later SOI, and I didn't demonstrate any of the sentry removal techniques or other things we had been taught by the III MEF SOTG guys during our "Scout Swimmer" course (if memory serves, line 7 and higher). The main problem appeared to be mindset; their system taught a self-defense mindset rather than an aggressive combative style.

In addition, my fiancée had been in an MP unit prior to her deployment with a medium transportation company (all the females in her old unit were transferred before the deployment for a variety of stated reasons, but I still think the main one was because of the nature of the old units planned mission profile). During some cross training they had done with the USMC MPs, one of their more aggressive guys managed to piss of a female Marine by taking advantage of the close contact necessary when teaching restraint techniques to grope her. After disengaging and informing him that she was going to punish him for the grope, she then broke his arm and dislocated his shoulder. Duly warned and given a chance to prepare, his ground fighting techniques did not help him one bit against her current USMC MA skills.

IMHO hand-to-hand training is necessary because modern American culture does not place any emphasis on being able to handle yourself in a physical confrontation. Hell, most of the kids at college (I'm using my GIBill to get a degree so I can apply for OCS) think that my friends and I were insane while growing up because we used to go into a buddies basement, turn out the lights, and brawl with each other for fun. I tried to explain that we didn't go full speed and the worst injuries that ever occurred were a couple of broken noses, some bruised egos, split lips, black eyes, and two minor concussions, but they still thought we were nuts for doing so. The pool of people that the military has to draw upon (for the most part, usually those from either a rural or an inner city environment appear to have some personal experience with physical confrontation) has very little natural aggression as the media has advanced the idea that any violence, even in a controlled environment is a negative thing.

Don Gwinn
May 11, 2004, 12:06 AM
In my opinion you're betteroff taking it than not.
That was my argument for TKD. It wasn't very popular in Strategies and Tactics. ;)


As several have said, even if it only increases confidence and aggression, that's a gain. Those are keys to every fight which can often (people are going to hate this, but you've all heard it before) overwhelm technique. My cousin Jeremy was mugged in Decatur, IL while home for Christmas a few years ago. This would have been about 1999 or 2000, I think, so I guess that would be the LINE era. Three unarmed young men tried to take his wallet and attacked when he resisted. He hurt two with straight jabs and knee smashes and all three fled. If they'd all been Golden Gloves boxers, he might have been in trouble, but they weren't, and his aggression and clear willingness to do violence against three opponents carried the day.

Honestly, what else should they be doing? If you really want them to train in smashing people with rocks, I will admit the combat applications, but how do you suggest they get a few hundred thousand people excited and enthusiastic about it? Also, is there that much technique involved in bashing somebody with a rock?

fix
May 11, 2004, 11:37 AM
LINE was a good system. Every time I try to point out the advantages, I am immediately pounced on by the "elite martial arts" bigots and ridiculed. LINE has the advantage of simplicity, much like the old Fairbairn system. Simple, effective, and quite violent techniques that can be taught to anyone in a matter of a few hours, and mastered with a modest amount of practice. The biggest problem with LINE is that the desired end result of an engagement is usually a crushed skull. Not so kosher in the civilian world that the Marines come in contact with both at home and abroad. MCMAP appears to be a good system, though a bit more complex. It requires more training, and appears to offer more options as it relates to ending the encounter with an opponent. Almost all LINE techniques lead to the dreaded "sweep and stomp" which tends to get messy.

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