6.5 Grendel vs 308


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PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 02:34 AM
I know, there are many threads about this. But couldn't quite find the info I want after hours of searching. I have a few questions!
First off. I plan on buying a new rifle. I havent decided if I want a ar-15 in 6.5 Grendel with a 20 inch barrel or the bushmaster 308 moe (don't give me suggestions since this is all my budget allOws me currently). .
My questions are, which is better for medium sized game with the given barrel lengths.
Which has more long range ability with the given barrel lengths
And lastly which has better terminal ballistics at any given range with the barrel lengths.
As a side not my Max practical shooting range will be around 700 Max with either of these 2 rifles.
So which do you guys suggest I should go with?

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Kachok
February 1, 2012, 02:48 AM
OK I am a huge 6.5 fan, but the 308 is a better medium game caliber vs the Grendal, simply due to it's versitility and sheer energy. Now if you were looking at 308 vs 260 rem, 6.5 Creedmore or 6.5x55 I will go 6.5 every time, because they have better external ballistics and are darn close on energy. 6.5x55 has been the best hunting rifle I have ever used hands down, it kicks so light I can watch my bullets hit through the scope (@ only 6lbs), hits so hard I have never had to track anything...ever, it makes less noise then a .38 cal handgun, and is scarry accurate with darn near every handload I have ever tried. If there were ever a perfect hunting rifle that is it.

PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 03:12 AM
Thanks for the reply! But yeah I totally get what your saying. But the 308 is coming out of a 16 inch tube. I know that affects it somewhat, but not sure how much. And I have also read the the 6.5 Grendel catches up with the energy of a 308 at around 650-700 yards?

CooterShooter
February 1, 2012, 03:18 AM
I'm also a huge 6.5 fan, but I've never used it for hunting, while I have hunted with more 308 rifles than I can name, and I've never been disappointed. Right off the bat I'd have to recommend 308 for that reason, but more importantly for availability and economics. The best factory 308 vs. the best factory 6.5 are going to cost about the same, but when you want to go plinking, cheap 308 surplus is readily available, whereas 6.5 will almost always approach factory prices in cost.

To give you an idea of what I mean, compare the only 6.5 listing (http://www.luckygunner.com/rifle/6.5mm-grendel-ammo) to over 18 308 listings (http://www.luckygunner.com/rifle/308-ammo), of varied quality/value.

Kachok
February 1, 2012, 03:24 AM
VERY few anamals are shot at 650+ yd, neither the 6.5 Grendal or 308 have enough speed for proper bullet expansion at those ranges anyway. 308s in genral make for a very good genral purpose hunting rifles, but the 6.5s beat them for retained energy, wind drift and trajectory. If you wanted a semi auto I would look hard at an AR-10 platform in 260 or 6.5 Creedmore. If hunting out to 700 yards is your goal forget short barrels and semi autos all together, a heavy barrel Savage or Tikka in a super long range caliber like 6.5-284, 7mm rem mag or 270 WSM is a MUST. Lesser calibers will not even retain expansion speeds at that kind of range, hence they simply will not be any good for hunting.
Even top of the line semi autos are limited to aprox 500yd due to retained erergy and accuracy which is always less then a really good bolt action.

chris in va
February 1, 2012, 05:57 AM
The Grendel is closer to a 7.62x39 than 308.

madcratebuilder
February 1, 2012, 08:31 AM
which is better for medium sized game with the given barrel lengths.

That could mean different things to different people. The Grendel well take deer size game with good bullet placement. A .308 from your 16" would be more powerful. Your are comparing a 100-123gr bullet to a 168-175 gr bullet. The Grendel is a long range target round that really does well past 800yds where the .308 starts to slow down.

303tom
February 1, 2012, 10:23 AM
The Grendel is closer to a 7.62x39 than 308.
The 6.5 Grendel is built off the 7.62x39, but it sure as heck ain`t no .308, you would have to come up to the 6.5x55 to match the .308. Then you just as well have a AG42.

Tirod
February 1, 2012, 10:45 AM
Some fundamentals haven't been covered in selecting either. If this is a hunting rifle, what type game is being shot at 650m? Where do you practice at those ranges to sight in?

The typical hunter of game usually fires at whitetail deer under 150m, mostly because that's the effective sightline in broken woodland hunting them. If it's antelope, maybe out to 450m. Most guides will attempt to stalk closer rather than accept the risk their client is any good at long distance. The effects of wind alone dictate the problem, most shooters can't call it and compensate. Simply not enough training or range time, regardless of the quality of the weapon.

Given the typical circumstances, the intermediate cartridges will deliver 1000 foot pounds out to 350m, which is more than sufficient for the average hunter.

Step up beyond 500 pound animals, .308 would be preferred, and hunters of elk, moose, bear, etc don't even try much beyond 350m, either. Again, proficiency at reading wind and bullet drop is critical. At 650m, it's measured in feet, not inches.

Please describe what target, at what typical range will be shot 85% of the time, and go back to determine what cartridge you really need, as the "One Vs. Other" choice is a flawed comparison. The ballistics and choice of weapon are too different to consider interchangeable for the same game, and in practice, they are very much different after a long day in the field.

Kachok
February 1, 2012, 11:07 AM
No 308 or 30-06 I ever loaded would match my 6.5x55 handloads as far as external ballistics go. Compare them all with top of the line bullets at max load.
6.5x55 140gr VLD hunting (.612 BC)
23" barrel 2800fps
200yd zero, 500yd impact -41" 10 mph crosswind 14" drift

308 210gr VLD hunting (.631 BC)
24" barrel 2400 fps
200yd zero, 500yd impact -58" 10pmh crosswind 18" drift

30-06 210gr VLD hunting (.631 BC)
24" barrel 2650fps
200 yd zero, 500yd impact -46" 10mph crosswind 15" drift

You have to step up to the 300 win mag to beat the little 6.5 Sweed at long ranged ballistics.

Tirod
February 1, 2012, 11:11 AM
Well, now someone has introduced a different cartridge which the OP didn't ask about.

In Before The Lock.

Wasn't me.

Kachok
February 1, 2012, 11:19 AM
^ :) ^ I told him he should consider a 260 rem (the 6.5x55s ballistic twin) if he wanted a long ranged semi-auto, it is a major step up in performance from either the 6.5 Grendal or 308 Win. Since it uses the 308 case it is interchangable in many 308 based firearms.

henschman
February 1, 2012, 11:27 AM
I would go for the .308 just based on ammo price. The fact is that either one will be perfectly adequate for hunting medium-sized game at any kind of range that you will ever need to take a shot.

But being that you're buying a fun semi-auto rifle, I would assume that you're going to do more with it than hunt -- at least I would hope so! It would be really nice to be able to buy range blasting ammo for under $0.50 per round. At current .308 prices, you can get steel cased Russian stuff for $0.35-0.40 per round, Prvi Partizan brass case reloadable ammo for around $0.50 per round, and NATO surplus non-reloadable for everywhere in between.

If you're into hand-loading, the price difference isn't as much of a big deal. But since I'm not, and since I like to do a lot of shooting, I stick mostly to standard military cartridges.

PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 01:13 PM
I do not intend to take any deer at 600-700 yards.
Lol. I am also saving up for a 338 rum for very long range shots. I just wanted a cartridge that I can get out to 700 yards decently easily and still have enough power to say take down a man sized target. I have enough room to shoot to about 900 yards where I live. I was looking at a ar-10 in 260 but right now I don't have the funds to build a nice 260 gun. Should of stAted it earlier but I just want to be able to take out a man sized target at 700 and probably do not intend to hunt much with this gun. But obviously wouldn't mind the cartridge that has more power at 700 yards. I just wasn't sure if a 308 out of a 16 inch barrel can beat a 6.5 out of a 20?

PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 02:11 PM
Henschman. You are right. I do plan on shooting it a lot for more than just huntin lol. But I would also like this gun to be a gun I could rely on for home defense, etc. It truly will be multi purpose, with main purpose bein that it needs to take down a man sized target from 500-700 yards, but also be a decent close quarters gun. I like the idea of having a close quarters gun that can hit 700 yards. I know, not realistically ever going to happen, but a fellow can dream lol!

Kachok
February 1, 2012, 02:21 PM
I cannot say I have ever seen a case of civilian self defence that involved 700 yd shots, 7 feet is avarage LOL That said a 308 semi auto loaded with 125gr Ballistic tips is sure to be an A++ manstopper within realistic home defence ranges. Just change over to 150 or 165 gr before you take it in the woods for deer.

PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 02:46 PM
Kachok- yeah, very un realistic ha! But I'm the type of person who likes to think out every given possible situation and be prepared no matter how far fetched ha. I know 308 is a great man stopper lol. But I was trying to figure out if 6.5 Grendel does it just as well, with less recoil, less weight, and also the same lethality at 700 yards? Now given that scenario what do you say. Im leaning towards 308 maybe in a bushmaster 20 inch hunter and mounting a 4-12 on it.

Kachok
February 1, 2012, 02:50 PM
I actualy would not give the 6.5 Grendal an edge at long range as far as stopping power goes. Even if the energy is the same there is something to be said for larger caliber, heavier bullet with more momentum, especaly if both bullets are below expansion speeds. + the 175 SMKs the US Army uses don't have to expand, they yaw on contact making a larger then expected wound at 800yd. The rest of the 6.5 cult might burn me alive for bad mouthing the 6.5 Grendal, but I don't like the way they hyped it up using long barrel bolt actions with overpressure loads, their real world performance while better then the 223 or 6.8SPC is nothing spectacular.
The 308 can carry deer killing (man stopping) energy and expansion speeds out to 600 yd, the 6.5 Grendel will only do that out to 350yd in the real world.

Owen Sparks
February 1, 2012, 03:11 PM
The 6.5 and 6.8 are NOT the best rifle rounds, but they are the best rounds that will fit into a regular small AR frame. If you wan't to step up to a .308 you have to go to a bigger heavier AR-10 platform. This will make a LOT of difference if you have to carry it all day.

BTW, the 6.5 Grendel does fairly well at long range because of the high balistic coeficent of the long sleek bullet it uses. Within standard hunting ranges of about 300 yards or less the 6.8 will do just as well if not slightly better. I have two 6.8 AR's and could not be more pleased.

PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 06:09 PM
Thanks for the replies guys! Now you guys have opened up my new dilemma ha. I have decided to step up to a ar-10 type plat form for sure, now the questions is, 308 vs 260.
Difference in feeding reliability, still knockdown power at 700 yards, and all that good stuff menti

PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 06:14 PM
mentioned earlier, i understand the 308 throws a heavier bullet, and the 260 a lighter bullet faster. so which has better terminal ballistics from 10-700 yards

Kachok
February 1, 2012, 06:15 PM
Don't forget 7-08 it is a top contender too, they will all feed about the same. What type and weight of bullets do you like, I can give you a full breakdown on whatever you like. While super heavy VLD designs give the best numbers very few people actualy use them, I like Nosler Ballistic tips and Hornady SSTs for their top shelf terminal ballistics.

TexasPatriot.308
February 1, 2012, 06:33 PM
when you really need a weapon in a bad situation, .308 will be readily available, most people will say a, 6.5 what? dont think the ammo will be available.

PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 07:51 PM
Well obviously a lot of my ammo I will be plinking and having fun with is any surplus ammo I can get. With occasi

PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 07:52 PM
Occasionally using other loads to go to a longer range. Probably a 175 grain?

PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 07:53 PM
Texaspatriot- you are exactly right, I'm trying to keep that into consideration, if things get bad there is a ton more 308, 7.62x51 ammo.

PublicEnemy
February 1, 2012, 07:55 PM
But I am obviously going to spend some money to get quality 308 rounds to shoot further.

RangerHAAF
February 2, 2012, 12:08 AM
I've tried those anomalous 6.8 & 6.5 cartridges and will never go off the 30 caliber reservation again. I'm sure they work for somebody just not for me.

Kachok
February 2, 2012, 05:40 AM
Here is the basics of each cartrage.
308 Win
Pros: availibility, highest energy at close range, .30 cal bullets, cheap @$$ plinking ammo, and better ballistics then any of the AR 15 length cartrages.
Cons: Recoil
6.8SPC
Pros: Most potent AR 15 length cartrage at close range, catching on with LE likley to become more available in the not too distant future.
Cons: Limited bullet weights, low BC bullets make for lackluster performance past 200 yd.
6.5 Grendel.
Pros: Best long range cartrage for AR 15 actions hands down.
Cons: sharp shoulder has caused feeding issues, not potent enough for real long range hunting. Cannot handle the superb 140gr bullets the 6.5mm bore is famous for. Not catching on as well as the other rounds.
260 Rem/6.5 creedmore
Pros: Far and away the best long range shooter/hunter of the bunch, can match the 300 win mag for trajectory and drift with almost 1/3 the recoil.
Cons: Ammo availibilty is less then ideal, not quite as much up close punch as the other AR10 length cartrages.
7mm-08.
Pros: A nice compromise between the up close power of the 308 and long range ballistics of the 260 with good availibility almost everywhere.
Cons: What cons? This is a very well ballenced cartrage.

Tirod
February 2, 2012, 09:32 AM
Let's not forget that the cartridge length limits which can be used in the AR15. And using an intermediate rifle is different than one with a long action weighing two pounds more.

That alone is why the comparison isn't valid. Intermediate vs full length battle rifle is what's really being compared, and that reflects a lack of sorting out what the gun will really do. It's not optimum to force one gun to do everything just to accommodate a single digit percentage solution that might happen. If that was a valid guideline, we'd all just carry a .50BMG concealed and have the answer, right?

Goes to, what ranges and type of target the gun will be used for at least 85% of the time, pick the most appropriate cartridge, and move on. Most professional armies do exactly that. If more range or a larger target is encountered, then that gun is used - precisely why the SDM and sniper is deployed to fill the range gap out to where crew served weapons are the answer.

One Gun To Rule Them All is a fantasy, as much as using a large bore combat rifle inside your home. The reality is most home defense situations use a pistol because it's at hand or close by, with less than four shots fired. It's why the 1911 is called the barbecue gun in Texas, much easier to wear, carry, and show off in your buddies back yard than a Saiga shotgun slung on your back.

Basically, some fundamental issues haven't been pinned down yet, it's a long way before even getting to which cartridge is optimum.

aubie515
February 2, 2012, 10:08 AM
It's the internet and everyone has an opinion. Fact is both calibers will work...comparing calibers and brands is the old "ford vs chevy" debate...short answer is no answer is the correct answer for everyone.

I don't follow the logic of if something bad happens that 6.5 won't be known...who cares??? If you are preparing for a bad situation...load up and don't concern yourself with that sort of thought. Also, it only takes one good shot to do the job.

Kachok
February 2, 2012, 02:37 PM
If the world goes to hell in a handbasket tomorow I have enough 6.5x55 brass, bullets and powder to last for YEARS :) I would not count on any store having any ammo if it all hits the fan. I don't like most foacory fodder anyway so availibility of factory loads has not been a selling point for me.

SBecks
February 15, 2012, 01:55 PM
Public Enemy... Get a snub nose .38 and a 6.5x55. The 38 will kill anything in your house, and the 6.5x55 with 120g. sierra will kill anything in this country. (160g. for elk, moose,etc)
Good luck in your quest for that perfect firearm. It is a challenge.

mnhntr
February 15, 2012, 04:24 PM
+1 I see it the same wayOK I am a huge 6.5 fan, but the 308 is a better medium game caliber vs the Grendal, simply due to it's versitility and sheer energy. Now if you were looking at 308 vs 260 rem, 6.5 Creedmore or 6.5x55 I will go 6.5 every time, because they have better external ballistics and are darn close on energy. 6.5x55 has been the best hunting rifle I have ever used hands down, it kicks so light I can watch my bullets hit through the scope (@ only 6lbs), hits so hard I have never had to track anything...ever, it makes less noise then a .38 cal handgun, and is scarry accurate with darn near every handload I have ever tried. If there were ever a perfect hunting rifle that is it.

TIMC
February 15, 2012, 07:53 PM
I own a Bushmaster BAR10 with 20" barrel and an A.A. AR in 6.5 Grendel. I like both rifles a lot but by far my favorite is the AR10. I like the Grendel more for varmint hunting.

Grendel
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/Grendelwithlaserscope.jpg

AR10
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/BushmasterAR10smile-1.jpg?t=1242302973

viking499
February 15, 2012, 08:12 PM
TIMC, those are good looking rigs. What scopes is on them?

ZX10Aviator
February 18, 2012, 03:29 PM
TimC, how do you like the eliminator? thought about getting the new III when it comes out. Did you find a load close enough to the grendel? Itll be for my 6.5 Grendel also.

flyskater
February 18, 2012, 04:02 PM
The 308 has been a proven round for many decades. It has been proven time and time again about a heavier, bigger caliber will always be superior versus a lighter and smaller caliber bullet. A 308 can pretty much takeout any animal in North America.

TIMC
February 18, 2012, 07:00 PM
TimC, how do you like the eliminator? thought about getting the new III when it comes out. Did you find a load close enough to the grendel? Itll be for my 6.5 Grendel also.

Sent you a PM

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