Gun oil and teflon (ptfe) ?


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kyron4
February 2, 2012, 06:04 AM
I was in a disscussion about gun oils like Breakfree CLP and Rem Oil that have ptfe in them are not to be used inside the bore. The reasons were they cause flyers or eratick groups for the first 20 shots or so and it cause some kind of "acid" to form and etch the bore. This all seemed odd to me since the military uses Breakfree CLP and has for years. Both products are made to use on guns. Seems people are on one side or the other, best thing or worse thing. Is there any real proof that these oils are 'bad' ? Is this all just internet hogwash ? -Thanks

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GRIZ22
February 2, 2012, 06:31 AM
I have been using CLP for over 20 years. You really shouldn't leave a lot of any lube in the bore, just a wipe down followed by a dry patch. There is danger of a lot of lube being a bore obstruction. If you leave too much of any lubricant in the bore you will get flyers for the first few shots but I never heard of 20.

If Breakfree destroys a bore all my long guns should have been gone long ago

buckhorn_cortez
February 2, 2012, 07:01 AM
A number of manufacturers state in their owner's manual to not use lubricants containing PTFE (FN Herstal being one of them). I no longer use that type of lubricant (in my case = Rem Oil) because I have found that it gums up in areas where it gets very hot on semi-automatic firearms.

With semi-automatic shotguns that is the gas piston area and inside of the barrel, on semi-automatic pistols that can be the inside of the barrel and areas adjacent to the barrel (barrel link, recoil spring, inside of the barrel bushing, etc.), on semi-automatic rifles like an AR that can be the gas block area, bolt group area on a DI driven rifle.

PTFE melts at about 450F and hot gasses can easily reach that in areas for brief periods of time. Under sustained fire or rapid fire, areas of a gun can reach that level and stay at a high temperature causing the PTFE to get gummy.

hardluk1
February 2, 2012, 09:24 AM
I have used breakfree for 37 years in all my firearms. I do wipe as barrel dry as they will go for my CC and others that are going to be used . I do know that over time it will work into the metal to help protect from corrosion. I grew up in florida swamps and have hunted in canada too and just never had an issue with it. Even firearms company reps I have talked to over the years have no problems with it.

Picher
February 2, 2012, 09:32 AM
I also use Breakfree CLP on guns and in the bore, but just a damp patch after solvent and a dry patch. I don't generally use it on action parts, especially semi-auto 22s.

kyron4
February 2, 2012, 10:07 AM
If ptfe is bad why do most all gun oils have it in it ? Birchwood Casy gun oil has it marked on the front as if it's a positive selling point.

benEzra
February 2, 2012, 10:15 AM
At around 1000 degrees F (easily reachable inside a gun barrel during firing), Teflon/PTFE breaks down into a mixture of fluorinated acids and olephins, about 20% of which (I think) is trifluoroacetic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trifluoroacetic_acid), which is highly corrosive. There isn't a huge amount of PTFE in Rem Oil and such, but the breakdown products are still something you wouldn't want in your gun barrel.

As a coating for the outside of the gun, though, Rem Oil works great.

Hummer70
February 2, 2012, 11:09 AM
I will only use CLP on external surfaces of my stuff. NEVER in a bore. For all internal lube/cleaning I use Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil. Yes you can use it as bore cleaner. It is great for gas operated systems as well as it keeps carbon in suspension.

The Army Marksmanship Unit now uses Mobil 1 on their ARs. I posted that on a forum and several months later learned they had started to use it on their rifles.

For bolt cams I use Grease Auto and Artillery GAA or Grease Aircraft Wide Temperature Range WTR. Both are military synthetic greases and are excellent.

Rail Driver
February 2, 2012, 11:18 AM
I will only use CLP on external surfaces of my stuff. NEVER in a bore. For all internal lube/cleaning I use Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil. Yes you can use it as bore cleaner. It is great for gas operated systems as well as it keeps carbon in suspension.

The Army Marksmanship Unit now uses Mobil 1 on their ARs. I posted that on a forum and several months later learned they had started to use it on their rifles.

For bolt cams I use Grease Auto and Artillery GAA or Grease Aircraft Wide Temperature Range WTR. Both are military synthetic greases and are excellent.

You're not the only one. I posted about Mobil 1 on a forum a few months before they started using it too. Thing is, the Army Marksmanship Unit (among other high speed, low drag groups) uses a mixture of the following:

ATF (red F-type)
10W non-detergent motor oil
STP oil treatment
Hoppe's No. 9 (or similar solvent)

Mobil 1 can be substituted for the 10w motor oil and STP oil treatment, however.

I've found that it is an effective lube, but not the best cleaner if you're trying to get things CLEAN. Back when I was in the Army (11 years ago now) we were using hoppes for cleaning and CLP or 10w motor oil if we were out of CLP to lube.

Motor oil doesn't work well as a cleaner, in my experience. Sure it will keep the loose carbon in suspension, but it does nothing to remove any deposits that wouldn't come off with a dry patch.

newbuckeye
February 2, 2012, 11:32 AM
We used red ATF on our M-60's at Ft. Drum. Cheap, worked well no matter the temp outside.

SlamFire1
February 2, 2012, 11:38 AM
Teflon/PTFE breaks down into a mixture of fluorinated acids and olephins, about 20% of which (I think) is trifluoroacetic acid, which is highly corrosive.

How come Teflon is good for frying pans but not for firearms?

So, is that bitter taste to my eggs, my cooking or the trifluoroacetic acid?


I did read a gentleman's assessment of the newest super lubricants. Older trigger mechanisms were designed with older lubricants. Some of these super lubricants so reduce the sear surface friction that triggers will have issues.

benEzra
February 2, 2012, 12:11 PM
How come Teflon is good for frying pans but not for firearms?

So, is that bitter taste to my eggs, my cooking or the trifluoroacetic acid?
You would never get a frying pan up to 1000 degrees; that's red hot, and you will set your eggs and/or cooking oil on fire and turn them to carbon long before you reach those temps. But yes, if you leave an empty teflon-coated frying pan on a stove burner until it heats above 1000 degrees, you will get some really toxic vapors that include the fluorinated acids. One reason not to do that.

Note that the barrel steel in a centerfire firearm doesn't reach 1000 degrees due to its thermal mass, but the flame temperature inside the bore (at least toward the chamber end) will reach and exceed that temperature, so any oil in the bore will volatilize and burn. Sort of like if you lightly coated a cast iron frying pan with Teflon oil and then directed a big blowtorch flame at it, except in a firearm bore it happens at 35,000-50,000 psi.

SlamFire1
February 2, 2012, 12:33 PM
But yes, if you leave an empty teflon-coated frying pan on a stove burner until it heats above 1000 degrees, you will get some really toxic vapors that include the fluorinated acids. One reason not to do that.

You also get melted aluminum droplets on everything.

And that is all I will admit to. :o

ns66
February 2, 2012, 09:00 PM
i mean don't engineers of CLP know this? if any average joe on internet know ptfe is bad for the gun parts at high temperature by 3 mins reading, how about those who design/make these as their profession? maybe the benefit outweight drawback?

briansmithwins
February 2, 2012, 09:41 PM
CLP hasn't had PTFE in it for a long time. I've bought some NOS CLP that still settles out white particles.

I've also got some LSA-T. It's the old standard mil lube with 25% by weight PTFE powder. It did score the best in this test: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B09fZpC9S7gDY2Q3MmJlZmYtNjAwOS00ODk5LWI1ZGUtZjk3NDZjMGU2ZjQ2

OTOH, I don't use it in the bore.

BSW

ColtPythonElite
February 2, 2012, 09:45 PM
Been using Rem Oil inside and out for over 20 years with no gumming up. I've got a bolt gun or two that will shoot 100 yard all shoot touching groups time and time again.

kyron4
February 2, 2012, 09:52 PM
"For all internal lube/cleaning I use Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil. "

What weight ? Like 10w-30 or 5w-20 ? I've been thinking about useing Mobil 1 and I wasn't sure what kind to get. -Thanks

Welding Rod
February 2, 2012, 09:58 PM
I have used Tetra for the last decade or so....maybe 12 years. No problems. No fliers - but I can only hold to about 1/2 - 3/4 MOA.

I always run a dry patch down the barrel before I take a gun out to shoot. But I also scrubbed the stuff into the barrels when they were new too, following Tetra's "treatment" recommendation. So maybe they have so much PTFE in there that they shoot consistantly all the time???

I live in one of the wetest areas in the country. I always run a sopping patch of Tetra in the bore before putting a gun away. No rust problems.

kyron4
February 2, 2012, 09:58 PM
"CLP hasn't had PTFE in it for a long time."

Breakfree CLP, MSDS sheet says it has 0.8% ptfe. That seems like such a small amount to cause any problems. I had read that prior to 1998 it had a higher percentage of ptfe.

============= Composition/Information on Ingredients =============

Name:POLYTETRAFLUOROETHYLENECAS:116-14-3
RTECS #:KX4025000
Fraction by Wt: 0.8%Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED

Name:POLYALPHAOLEFIN BASE STOCK
CAS:68649-12-7
Fraction by Wt: 75.2%
Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED

Name:RUST INHIBITORS, ESTERS AND OTHER INGREDIENTS
Fraction by Wt: 24.0%
Other REC Limits:NONE RECOMMENDED




"i mean don't engineers of CLP know this? if any average joe on internet know ptfe is bad for the gun parts at high temperature by 3 mins reading, how about those who design/make these as their profession? maybe the benefit outweight drawback? "


I was thinking the same thing, and this is why I'm confused.

benEzra
February 3, 2012, 07:44 AM
What weight ? Like 10w-30 or 5w-20 ? I've been thinking about useing Mobil 1 and I wasn't sure what kind to get
I use 5w30 in my AR, and 5w30 or 10w30 in my AK, with good results. 10w30 might be a little thick for winter use; even the 5w30 leaves a much thicker film than Rem Oil or CLP.

"i mean don't engineers of CLP know this? if any average joe on internet know ptfe is bad for the gun parts at high temperature by 3 mins reading, how about those who design/make these as their profession? maybe the benefit outweight drawback? "
If the PTFE works re: advertising, and the drawbacks are small enough not to notice, then the advertising advantage trumps the technical disadvantage. Look at all the people who put PTFE oils and additives in their car motor oil, even though it tends to clog filters and is demonstrably inferior to good oil with a less gimmicky additive pack.

kyron4
February 3, 2012, 10:54 AM
Looked at a bottle of Rem Oil, it prodly stes "With Teflon" right under the words Rem oil.

ns66
February 3, 2012, 12:30 PM
i don't believe the whole industry and consumers will buy the empty ad just to feel good about themselves, there got to be proven merits of teflon
it's all about benefit vs drawback, medicine has side effects, you can complain all day about side effects, but you still want to take the medicine if that's needed

buckhorn_cortez
February 3, 2012, 04:01 PM
i don't believe the whole industry and consumers will buy the empty ad just to feel good about themselves, there got to be proven merits of teflon
it's all about benefit vs drawback, medicine has side effects, you can complain all day about side effects, but you still want to take the medicine if that's needed

You'll have to explain this one to me further as there is really no comparison between medicine and gun oil is there?

You take medicine because you have a medical condition that requires it. The choice is - take the medicine and get well - or, don't take the medicine and get worse, or with some conditions die, which equals fairly serious drawbacks.

That's not the case in gun lubrication, in most cases (outside of battle conditions), you're not going to be personally affected if your gun isn't lubricated properly - AND, most importantly, there is NO drawback for using lubrication without PTFE in it.

Since there are hundreds of choices available in gun lubrication - I use lubricants without PTFE. Seems fairly simple to me.

buckhorn_cortez
February 3, 2012, 04:11 PM
How come Teflon is good for frying pans but not for firearms?

Look at the sticker on any cooking pot or pan with Teflon - it says not to expose it to heat higher than 500F as the material degrades at that point (it melts at 627F). Meaning, don't put a Teflon coated cooking pan under a broiler as direct broiler heat is more than 500F.

If you want to use an oil with PTFE - figure out the parts of the gun that may exceed 500F and don't use the lubrication in those areas.

Or, since there are hundreds of lubricants on the market - use one without PTFE and avoid the problem all together.

jnoble87
February 3, 2012, 04:39 PM
I use Strike Hold. I feel it works the best when compared to Rem Oil and the others.

Welding Rod
February 3, 2012, 04:44 PM
Has any negative side effect ever been actually observed in a gun barrel? Or is a corrosive side effect based on theory?

Like I said, I have been using Tetra w/PTFE for 10-12 years in about as wet an area you are going to find in the lower states and have never seen any corrosion.

I have been using it in ARs for years now and the reason I have stuck with it is because the bolt and inside the bolt carrier are so easy to clean.

kyron4
February 3, 2012, 08:44 PM
Since the gun oils in questions have less than 1% teflon , is that even enogh to do anything good or bad ?

M-Cameron
February 3, 2012, 09:16 PM
I dunno.... I've been using tri-flow made with PTFE....never had a problem and all my guns run great......

benEzra
February 4, 2012, 08:38 AM
i don't believe the whole industry and consumers will buy the empty ad just to feel good about themselves, there got to be proven merits of teflon
Again, look at all the car owners who do exactly that. Or the gun owners who use graphite lube in the aluminum receivers of AR's, even though graphite is mildly corrosive to aluminum.

Since the gun oils in questions have less than 1% teflon , is that even enogh to do anything good or bad ?
Burning 1% Teflon will probably net you about a quarter of a percent of fluorinated acids. That's not a whole lot.

A tiny bit of water with a quarter-percent salt might not do noticeable harm either, unless you leave the gun uncleaned for years in a humid environment afterward.

However, neither is something I'd necessarily *want* in the bore if there are other products that don't leave even trace amounts of corrosives.

Has any negative side effect ever been actually observed in a gun barrel? Or is a corrosive side effect based on theory?
Theoretical, mostly. If you clean the bore after shooting, it would be like shooting mildly corrosive ammo and cleaning it afterwards. You'd probably have to leave the bore uncleaned after shooting for a long time in a humid environment to see corrosion, and a lot of AR bores are chrome lined also.

HOOfan_1
February 4, 2012, 09:42 AM
So when are we going to see Hornady release their Ultraperformance ammo, loaded with a drop of Cheetah blood?

I'm sure someone at some time thought Teflon was a good idea beyond marketing.

JohnGault
February 5, 2012, 01:09 AM
Lucas Gun Oil, cheap and it works on machine guns and sewing machines.

jrod102
February 6, 2012, 12:41 AM
Lucas Gun Oil, cheap and it works on machine guns and sewing machines.

Run,... from any product with the name Lucas on it.

Just my .02 cents worth.

briansmithwins
February 6, 2012, 01:10 AM
Lucas Gun Oil, cheap and it works on machine guns and sewing machines.

Run,... from any product with the name Lucas on it.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Well, it doesn't involve electricity, so the Lucas product might be ok.

OTOH, do you know hwy the Brits drink warm beer?

Lucas made refrigerators too.

BSW

briansmithwins
February 6, 2012, 01:21 AM
Back to the parent topic. I did run across this:

Firearms cleaner, lubricant or preservative oil or grease containing PTFE additive applied
to sliding surfaces of the M14 rifle will not reach a temperature of 464 degrees Fahrenheit
or higher with the possible exception of the cylindrical portion of the operating rod and the
operating rod guide. Thus, firearms cleaner, lubricant or preservative with PTFE additive
will remain chemically inert when applied to the saddle portion of the operating rod and
areas to the rear. Application of any cleaner, lubricant or preservative oil or grease
containing PTFE additive forward of the chamber may result in deterioration of the PTFE
additive.

Experience of the U. S. Marine Corps found that when CLP containing PTFE additive was
left in the bore of a M14 rifle it would shoot erratically until the CLP had been blown out
after the first fifteen to twenty rounds of fire. The accuracy would return indicating the
washing out of the CLP with its PTFE additive. Even with automatic fire, it’s unlikely any
portion of the barrel surface would reach 464 degrees Fahrenheit or higher in no more
than twenty rounds. If the M14 rifle was fitted with a sound suppressor, the propellant
gases and any residual bore cleaner or preservative will blow back into the shooter’s face
each time the rifle is fired. If the bore cleaner or preservative contained PTFE additive
then it is conceivable that some PTFE high temperature particulate or off-gas could be
blown on to the shooter.

From:M14 Rifle History and Development by Lee Emerson

I'd share the whole book but it's copyrighted.

BSW

Art Eatman
February 6, 2012, 12:17 PM
Lotsa repetition. More than is needed...

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