[rEVOLVEr VII]

I figured I'd make a new thread on this subject, just discovered the Stoeger Double Defense, comes in over/under or side by side, options of 12 or 20 GA, It's a nice looking shotty, just unsure if it'd be the smart approach to a HD shotgun with their only being 2 shots. What does THR think?

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger-double-defense.php

[drsfmd]

There are plenty of doubles that I would consider reliable and high enough quality for HD work. The Stoeger would not be on that list.

[btg3]

Only 2 shots? We had a Cowboy Action shooter bring his stage coach gun to a recent tactical shotgun match and he scored better than 80% of the shooters who used pumps or semi-autos. How did he do it? He knew how to reload... exceedingly better than most!!!

On the flip side, many folks have a mindset that assumes the HD landscape only needs to be concerned with a single intruder in the bedroom. Gangs have changed that landscape. If you are ready for one intruder in the middle of the night while you are in bed, it may... or may not go down like that.

[Isaac-1]

It would not be my first choice, often a home defense sitution will involve 2 or more bad guys, I personally would like to have more rounds in the gun.

[Shovelhead]

If it's all you got...... use it.

[Virginian]

Yes, but not that one. The Stoegers the cowboy shooters prefer have double triggers. There's a good reason for that.

[rcmodel]

I'd trust a single-shot 12 ga to save my life if thats all I had.

My old daddy did on the farm for 70 some years.
And he died of old age.

rc

[rjrivero]

It's got tactical rails. It HAS to save your life if it has RAILS on it! Right??

Side by sides are fine for Home Defense, but I would rather have a bit more capacity than TWO SHOTS. (personally).

[wrs840]

I have a Stoeger Coach Gun that has never malfunctioned and it's fun to shoot.

That said, I own several Mossberg 500s, one 590, a Remington 870, and a Winchester 1300 too, and I personally prefer the 500s just for the weight balance and ergonomics. You really have to decide for yourself though.

[Paris]

Lots of people have been killed by coach guns in the last, what, 175 years? I'd say their effectiveness is proven.

[rcmodel]

what, 175 years?I'd say closer to 250 years.

Considering the Blunderbuss was used as a British mail service coach gun as early as 1788.
And probably by others before that.

rc

[Paris]

You're right, shotguns do go even further back under other names.

[guyfromohio]

Worked for Mad Max.

[CmpsdNoMore]

If I could only have one longarm I would choose a break action shotgun. If I had a break action that could fire reliably I would trust ok.

[dprice3844444]

legacy sports/maverick has a nice over/under hd 12 gauge

[husker]

Rem SPR-220 coach is my HD gun. I have the elastic band that goes around the butt stock & holds 5 shells.

[Fred Fuller]

Given reliable repeaters available for no more $$$ than the SxS, no, I wouldn't choose a double. And definitely not a single trigger double, even if it had rails on every available surface. I don't anticipate having to stand off the 4th Mongolian Horde singlehandedly, I'm just better at running a pumpgun.

But if all I had was a single barrel and I needed to defend hearth and home, I'd use it. I wouldn't choose it when other, better options were available, but I'd use what I could get my hands on given no other choice, and hope I could make it do.

As Louis Awerbuck says - "It's the Indian, not the arrow."

[303tom]

YES I Would.................

[natman]

A double wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd use one if I had to.

If I had to use a double, a Stoeger wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd use one if I had to.

Considering how little it costs for a good pump, I don't see the point of buying a gun "that I'd only use if I had to" squared.

[Bud Tugly]

As others have said, familiarity and practice are far more important than the weapon. I've mostly used single shots for hunting for over 45 years so that's what I'd go for as HD. I've shot that gun and reloaded so many times I could do it in my sleep. Sure, a pump would give more firepower but I'm totally confident with the single shot (with a butt cuff).

If you're going to rely on any shotgun in a stressful situation you'd better be willing to get totally familiar and comfortable with it - otherwise you might be better off with a dog that barks and a baseball bat.

[Chopdoktor]

I have a few fine old double-barrels, but there's no way I would ever take them over a pump or semi-auto. When things go bump in the night and I'm under immense stress, likely still half-asleep, the last thing I want to worry about is popping open the breach and fumbling in two more rounds. I want boom/rack/boom/rack/boom/rack/boom/rack, etc... If the threat isn't neutralized in the 8 rounds my home defense pump-gun holds, I would seriously consider getting the heck out of there, haha!

[kfgk14]

Not with the options I have at my disposal now. It's just not enough rounds, with all the scary stuff going down these days. Gangs, thugs in armor, etc. I have a defensive shotgun, but its use is very subjective, it really is more for my SO. I prefer an AR for defense. If i was forced to use a break-action double, I suppose I'd have to do my best.

[SHR970]

Yes. I have other choices available too.

If I have to face a jury (I shouldn't but one never knows) I would rather them see a coach gun than a Tacticool Tommy shotgun. The local PD can abuse the hell out of my coach while it is booked as evidence and I wouldn't really care too much.

I have a fatal funnel in my Apt. and this is where I would deploy it. I strongly doubt that even if the goblin has friends with him that they'll be in much of hurry to advance upwards after they have to climb over their friend who is now a pile on the stairs.

[Jaymo]

I'd like to have that one, but would prefer it have double triggers like mine.
The rails are nice for mounting a light. I can't see in the dark, and a weapon mounted light frees up both hands for holding the shotgun securely.
Stoeger also has an OU with short barrels.

Funny, how many negative opinions I hear about the Stoeger/IGA shotguns from people who've never owned/shot them.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I have an older model SXS12ga mag Stoeger leaned in near corner under nite-lite at my headboard of bed - and my Makarov in a cheapo hoster tacked to the bedpost. both are as ready as I'll ever be.
the shotty is the double trigger model - when I first got it I has trouble after I'd fired a couple 100 shots with one barrel cocking fully. a takedown revealed that the cocking rod had depressed the wood it rests on enuff that not enough travel was available. I filed tack heads square and drove them into the wood. no prblem now but Stoeger should have foreseen this. otherwise I'm well pleased w/mine. it shoots great - I hunt rabbit and upland game birds w/it - and I replaced the front brass bead w/a glow sight.
improved cylinder right bbl & modified choke l/bbl.

[rodinal220]

I'm with Clint Smith on this one.Alot of folks cannot afford an expensive shotgun like a Benelli or tricked out Remington or other options.You can defend yourself if you know how to run the gun.Many folks have grandpas war bring back 1911 or P-38,etc,they can be used quite efficiently.Many inexpensive but servicable SxS out there and many people already have them.Check out Clints short video on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw

[MCgunner]

I'm comfortable with my coach gun. I own a Mossberg...for duck hunting. I keep my 20 gauge coach gun bedside along with my .357 magnum and my daily carry, usually a 9x19. My coach gun is for safe room barricade.


There are plenty of doubles that I would consider reliable and high enough quality for HD work. The Stoeger would not be on that list.

And, you'd prefer a 300 dollar Remington express? :rolleyes:

I love netsperts.

[MCgunner]

Rem SPR-220 coach is my HD gun. I have the elastic band that goes around the butt stock & holds 5 shells.


It's a fantastic dove gun, too. I'm getting pretty fast reloading it while dove hunting and it's deadly on the little boogers.


http://i50.tinypic.com/11qh2mx.jpg

[Burt Blade]

The gun you use every weekend, or one much like it, is likely going to be far more effective in an unexpected fight than the "best" gun that hasn't been fired for three years, and not more than a few times then, and is full of under-the-bed dust bunnies.

[KodiakBeer]

I've dragged around an old Baikal coach gun for ten or more years. The nice thing about a coach gun is that it is so much shorter and handier than a pump. For instance, you can stick it in a pack with the butt hanging over your shoulder for a quick draw- try that with a pump!
If you stick two shells between the fingers of your left hand like cigars, you can replace the two spent shells pretty quickly and your rate of fire (for at least the first four shots) is pretty quick. Your first two shots are much quicker than a pump gun.

Anyway, with slugs it's my hiking gun. With buck it's my primary home defense gun.

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac164/kodiakbeer/BaikalSmall.jpg

[BigN]

If I was not on the barrel end I would.

[MCgunner]

I've been hunting for 40 years with a SxS, one sort or another. I know how to run 'em effectively. They're natural for me and very quick on target.

I'll be taking my old Sarasqueta 12 SxS hog hunting next couple of months, buckshot only rules, state land. It's a 28" gun, not a coach gun. I'd prefer my coach gun, but I prefer bigger than 3 buck 20 gauge on hogs. It'd be nice to have Kodiak's Baikal for the quick draw thing as that's what I've got rigged up on my backpack, but I can carry the thing while hunting. I've got some stuff ordered loaded with .375" round ball, supposed to be invented for hogs using "buck shot". Has 8 in a shell, seems better than 12 or 15 standard 00 to me. I plan to back it up in the left barrel with a 3" slug (God help my shoulder) if the buckshot miffs him off. Rules or no rules, I don't wanna get sliced and diced. That gun shoots slugs like a rifle, amazingly well regulated. Kicks like all HELL, though.

[RevolvingGarbage]

I would, and do.

Its an old Wards Western in 16 gauge. I keep it unloaded, but with loose ammo close at hand, and as you can see, its got 2x 4/5th oz rifled slugs and 4x #1 buckshot in the shell cuff. I cut it down from 24 to 18.5" almost immediately after buying it, and its just so compact and natural pointing. Note the size comparison to the 59/66!

[theicemanmpls]

Years ago, a unmarked police car had in a custom rack what looked like a 18" 12 ga side by side.
As everyone is aware, the cops can usually carry what ever they want.

The expression on a bad guys face with a cop pointing that him must of been priceless. Those barrels are big enough around to roll bowling balls down em.

I have taken many pheasants with a double 20ga. They work very well.

[evan price]

Not my preferred HD gun (Moss 500 18.5") but if I had my coach gun handy I'd use it. Only problem is mine does not have exposed hammers, and I do not like to leave it loaded since there is no way to decock it and the safety on an old double only blocks the trigger, not the hammers.

[CajunBass]

No...but I'd trust myself to use a double barrel to save my life.

[kozak6]

It wouldn't be first on my list, but it would do.

I wouldn't go with that Stoeger defense model. I don't think barrel porting on a home defense weapon is a good idea.

[Virginian]

African white hunters used to use a double and buckshot to go in the bush after wounded leopards. I can't think of anything more dangerous.

[snooperman]

it will do just fine for home defense if you learn how to use it. I have taken many quail and dove with mine here on my farm too. It is light, short and much more compact for home defense than the pump guns. I also have an old Remington 870 too I keep in the barn tack room loaded up but for around the house I prefer the smaller Coach gun. Snoop

[TCBPATRIOT]

wrong thread but I thought I would give my own .2 but we have a bunch of pistols laying around my house so my go to is my XMd in 40 S&W

[MCgunner]

Not my preferred HD gun (Moss 500 18.5") but if I had my coach gun handy I'd use it. Only problem is mine does not have exposed hammers, and I do not like to leave it loaded since there is no way to decock it and the safety on an old double only blocks the trigger, not the hammers.

I keep my 20 gauge Remington Spartan (Baikal) hammers down on live ammo. All I have to do to cock it is open the barrels, then close 'em, ready to go. In order to get it in "condition 2", one simply snaps the hammers on snap caps, pull off the fore stock, and open the breach. The hammers cannot cock with the fore stock off. Load, reassemble, ready to store hammers down on live rounds. No need for those stupid hammers on a gun I hunt with. Hammers are for CAS shooters, not dove hunters. :D

This doesn't work with my Sarasqueta as it does not have rebounding firing pins, the pins protrude with the hammers down. I can store it with the load off the springs, but I can't leave live rounds in it. The Spartan, though, does have rebounding firing pins/hammers.

[Dave McCracken]

I'm no real expert like some of the CAS folks, but I can get two hits on two targets in a rather short time frame with either variety of twicepipe shotgun.

But I can also do that with an 870, 500, 37, 1300, etc, and still have a few rounds on tap if they brought friends.

Confederate cavalrymen during The Late Unpleasantness had a firepower advantage over their Union adversaries with the doubles they were issued or brought with them to war. The Union was issuing short barreled ML carbines and musketoons (Smoothbore carbines) so the Rebels had a 2:1 advantage.

When the Union troops were issued Spencer and Henry repeaters, the flower of Southern manhood withered and was consumed in the meatgrinder.

I'll use a double until I can get to my 870s....

[Sheepdog1968]

It's less about the weapon and more about the user's skills. If that's what you have and you practice a lot with it, especially reloading, I'm sure it would be effective. Having said that a person of an equal skill level is likely going to have an advantage with a pump shotgun.

On a side related note, my wife is ok with me bringing a firearm when we travel in our car. With kids and all of their associated stuff, she starts to complain when I bring a long arm and its only roll is self defense (vs. social shooting with friends or hunting). At that point, she is happier if I bring just a semi-auto pistol. Marriages are give and take so I don't always feel like pushing the issue. I mentioned to her that a SxS would fit in my soft luggage when broken down into two parts and she was fine with that to bring along. So, there may be other benefits to a SxS that have nothing to do with capacity. I can't be the only person who faces this kind of issue.

I'd much rather have a SxS plus a pistol than just a pistol by itself. I'd likley transfer from SxS to pistol after the shotgun runs dry.

[MCgunner]

Never had the plug out of my pump's magazine. I don't wanna forget it when I go duck hunting, could incur a nice fine. My auto, a Winchester 1400, only holds one more round than does my coach gun. If I thought I needed more rounds in a shotgun and that my pistols couldn't back me up, I'd buy a Mossberg 590 so that I'd be in zen with the manual of operation. :D But, 2's enough. If not, I have 11 in my 9x19 in the pocket of my pants next to the bed, 6 in my .357 magnum by the bed, and 5 in my little NAA .22 back up in the other pocket of my pants. If they're still coming, screw it, I've lived long enough and it must be God's will. There's really nothing in this house worth some punk risking that sort of firepower to get at, trust me. Can't take it to hell with you.

I view a shotgun as safe room defense. If I have to leave the bedroom, (will try not to, have a cell phone) I'll take the 9. If the knock turns out to be a cop, I won't be as embarrassed (or dead). I've answered the door to a cop before, couple of times. Latest was about 6 months ago when a bunch of kids was stealing from cars. Our car's door was open and they got my GPS.

I'm a decent pistol shot. I don't think my 9 will bounce off anyone and weapon retention is a lot easier in a struggle.

[SHR970]

One intangible has also been forgotten thus far in this conversation so I will avail upon myself to correct it.

The twin staring eyes of impending doom bring with them forthwith an intimidation factor that can make even a hardened criminal wish that he was elsewhere.

In most instances where a gun is used in personal defense, the defender does not have to pull the trigger. If bringing up a SxS makes the intruder surrender and I don't have to shoot him so much the better.

If you have to fend off enough people in your home where you need 8 shots, you screwed up your security layers in a huge way. You have also won the undesired one in a million home invasion lottery since you somehow advertised that you are a soft target with lots of wealth.

[theicemanmpls]

Yes. I have other choices available too.

If I have to face a jury (I shouldn't but one never knows) I would rather them see a coach gun than a Tacticool Tommy shotgun. The local PD can abuse the hell out of my coach while it is booked as evidence and I wouldn't really care too much.

I have a fatal funnel in my Apt. and this is where I would deploy it. I strongly doubt that even if the goblin has friends with him that they'll be in much of hurry to advance upwards after they have to climb over their friend who is now a pile on the stairs.
May I ask why you would not want a jury to view your tricked out shotgun? IMHO, if one meets the standards for use of deadly force it does not mater what firearm, or ammo one may load. The tools used commiting the deed do not matter.

If you were found unjustified in use of deadly force, then you will be eating lots of Bologna sandwiches.

Another question is, why would the law enforcement people abuse your firearm as it was being cataloged into evidence? IMHO, they learn in cop school how to manage evidence.

[husker]

I bust a lot of pheasants & quail with mine MCgunner. Where can I find some steel chokes for SPR-220 that wont break the bank? I wanna drop some Snow-Geese with it.

[MCgunner]

I have a fatal funnel in my Apt. and this is where I would deploy it. I strongly doubt that even if the goblin has friends with him that they'll be in much of hurry to advance upwards after they have to climb over their friend who is now a pile on the stairs.

I'm getting a vision of the 300 Spartans at the pass of Thermopoli. :D

I bust a lot of pheasants & quail with mine MCgunner. Where can I find some steel chokes for SPR-220 that wont break the bank? I wanna drop some Snow-Geese with it.

Replacement chokes are $18.50 http://www.choketube.com/choke-tube-product-details.php?Baikal-Choke-Tubes&mf=2 Mine came with 5 chokes, cylinder through full. I leave the IC and Mod in it for doves and have used those on Teal, but it don't pattern real well with any 3" 20 gauge steel shot I've yet tried, so I sorta prefer my 12s on ducks and my 10 gauge H&R for snow geese. :D I have to try some 3" fasteel BB in 12 gauge on geese sometime, though. They might work a bit farther than normal steel loads, but that 10 really reaches out there on those bluebird days especially late season when it's hard to bring 'em down.

I picked up a twice pipe 10 gauge a guide had once on a goose hunt. That danged thing musta weighed 15 lbs. :what: My H&R is 9 lbs and isn't bad to shoot. I looked for a double gun when I was looking for a 10, but all I could find is the H&R, the Browning BPS, and the Remington Mag 10 or whatever they call that auto. Well, I didn't wanna spend a fortune on a goose gun as I don't hunt 'em a whole lot, mostly ducks. And, I started goose hunting with a single shot 16, so the H&R brings back good memories if nothing else.

I think my next gun will probably be a O/U since I don't have one, would like a Browning Cynergy, but I would also sorta like another 12 gauge auto in camo finish or at least a plastic stocked gun. My little twenty gauge Spartan gets used the most, though, as I really like to shoot doves and that thing is a dove killin' machine. :D It makes a good combo gun, trail gun, and home safe room defense gun. It's just all around the most versatile gun I've got. But, I don't bother with it on waterfowl due to the 20 gauge chamber and steel shot laws. Another double in 12 would be cool, but kick like hell. LOL

[Geno]

Absolutely, but it isn't my first choice. If that is all I owned, I'd be well practiced, and make sure it was reliable.

Geno

[SHR970]

May I ask why you would not want a jury to view your tricked out shotgun? IMHO, if one meets the standards for use of deadly force it does not mater what firearm, or ammo one may load. The tools used commiting the deed do not matter.

I live in the Democratik Peoples Republik of ************. We have a great penal code for unwanted intruders...I'll highlight a key word in it.

CPC 198.5 Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.


In the event that I have to use force and in the event that I end up with a D.A. who has an agenda and wants to make a name for himself (not like that has ever happened;)) he will paint the situation that I wasn't in fear and I will have to face a jury. In a declared good shoot you don't face a jury. If I have to face a jury I don't want to have a Counter Commando'ed out gun displayed that paints me in a bad light as some crazed guy waiting for a chance to kill some hapless guy who accidently entered the wrong residence.

I want a gun that will help make my defense and that could include that the perp. was either crazy or drugged out of his skull because EVERYONE knows that no one in his right mind will advance toward a man pointing a double barrel. Even a Gun Fearing Wussie juror will find that plausible. Since my front door is at the bottom of the stairs, and I am not cutting off his opportunity to retreat any forward movement can be viewed as fear of imminent peril. It helps to know and understand your States use of force laws. :D

Here, the shooting will be investigated as a homicide and subject to the D.A.s discretion. We don't have Make My Day or full on Castle Doctrine; this comes close but close isn't always good enough. If I say anything that could be construed to negate my fear I could be charged with Murder 1 or 2.

As far as the P.D. taking good care of my firearm before during and after the case; I have seen otherwise. I bet on not being able to get it back without jumping through numerous hoops. They can have my Stoger or my Mossy's, but they can't have my Italian O/U's.

Another question is, why would the law enforcement people abuse your firearm as it was being cataloged into evidence? IMHO, they learn in cop school how to manage evidence.
I sat as a juror on a case where the rustball presented as the weapon "used" in the crime and bullets "matched" to it was an evidentiary reason for aquittal. That thing was was frozen shut and the defense asked how they could match a bullet to a gun that clearly was incapable of firing. It may have been the same make and model as the one shown in the pictures to us but it certainly wasn't in the same condition. In the managing of evidence, there are many hands and fingers involved and many chances for abuse, neglect, etc. Need another example...look at the Katrina guns; hundreds of examples of conficated weapons that were mishandled.

[Grunt]

If a SxS was all I had, I'd make do. Then again, if all I had was a Ka-Bar, I'd have to make that do as well. I know the statistics say I shouldn't need more than 1-2 rounds but I am one of these kind of guys that b elieves that it's better to have and not need than to need and not have. This is why I would much rather have my Mossberg or Remington pump over a 2-round coach gun. As far as the cost thing goes, I haven't checked the price of a coach gun (already own a Rossi I use for CAS so not in the market for another one) but a Mexican Mossberg (aka Maverick) is pretty darn cheap and gives you more than 2 chances at a possible more than 1 intruder. Don't get me wrong, I like my Rossi but it's a gun for games. For serious business where my butt is on the line, I'm going to stick with my higher capacity pump guns.

[theicemanmpls]

I live in the Democratik Peoples Republik of ************. We have a great penal code for unwanted intruders...I'll highlight a key word in it.

CPC 198.5 Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.


In the event that I have to use force and in the event that I end up with a D.A. who has an agenda and wants to make a name for himself (not like that has ever happened;)) he will paint the situation that I wasn't in fear and I will have to face a jury. In a declared good shoot you don't face a jury. If I have to face a jury I don't want to have a Counter Commando'ed out gun displayed that paints me in a bad light as some crazed guy waiting for a chance to kill some hapless guy who accidently entered the wrong residence.

I want a gun that will help make my defense and that could include that the perp. was either crazy or drugged out of his skull because EVERYONE knows that no one in his right mind will advance toward a man pointing a double barrel. Even a Gun Fearing Wussie juror will find that plausible. Since my front door is at the bottom of the stairs, and I am not cutting off his opportunity to retreat any forward movement can be viewed as fear of imminent peril. It helps to know and understand your States use of force laws. :D

Here, the shooting will be investigated as a homicide and subject to the D.A.s discretion. We don't have Make My Day or full on Castle Doctrine; this comes close but close isn't always good enough. If I say anything that could be construed to negate my fear I could be charged with Murder 1 or 2.

As far as the P.D. taking good care of my firearm before during and after the case; I have seen otherwise. I bet on not being able to get it back without jumping through numerous hoops. They can have my Stoger or my Mossy's, but they can't have my Italian O/U's.


I sat as a juror on a case where the rustball presented as the weapon "used" in the crime and bullets "matched" to it was an evidentiary reason for aquittal. That thing was was frozen shut and the defense asked how they could match a bullet to a gun that clearly was incapable of firing. It may have been the same make and model as the one shown in the pictures to us but it certainly wasn't in the same condition. In the managing of evidence, there are many hands and fingers involved and many chances for abuse, neglect, etc. Need another example...look at the Katrina guns; hundreds of examples of conficated weapons that were mishandled.
I have read in way back in the day, in the glossy gun rags, and now on the internet the same "fear" about tricked out firearms, and hand loads.

I understand your concern, that you live in **********. It can be a rather frustrating place if you are a gun guy. I left in that place in 1980. I will not be returning anytime soon.

Regarding your concerns, have u ever heard of an actual jury being influenced? Can you provide documentation? News stories, case law?

Regarding your comment regarding the seizure during Katrina, those seizures were all deemed illegal by the courts. During that horrible storm and its aftermath nothing was functional. Especially the NOPD.

[Burt Blade]

Another advantage of the side-by-side coachgun is use as a discreet traveling long gun, especially where handguns are restricted but shotguns not as much. Remove the barrels, and the coachgun fits nicely in a common "medium" 22-inch duffle bag. You might need a lock on the zipper pull to be legally “securely encased”, depending on local laws. I have sometimes found it handy to be able to move a long gun back and forth from a vehicle to a motel without calling attention to it. It just looks like one more cheap piece of baggage. Just be sure to put other light/bulky stuff in the bag to fill it out a bit. Otherwise it looks like a big gun in a little bag.

[SHR970]

icemanmpls wrote: Regarding your concerns, have u ever heard of an actual jury being influenced? Can you provide documentation? News stories, case law?

No but you also know that your question is a strawman fallacy at best. Seldom if ever do you have written in case law detailing the actual deciding / influencing factors that a jury uses to form the basis of a conviction. The news stories that contain any info. on a jurors statements are also not readily searchable in all but the most publicised of cases. However, here in the DPRK we do have numerous antifirearm laws that are based on a gun's features, materials, and / or "safety" features (ie assault weapon ban, high cap mag ban, cheap gun / SNS ban, DOJ saftey certification test, 50 BMG ban, etc.). Even if your Tacticool gun is legal, the seed can easily be planted in a GFW's jurors mind that you had ill intent. There have been enough news stories in the past (shown on NBC, CBS, ABC local affiliates) where the media showcased the evil arsenal (usually a couple of 22 rifles, a couple of handguns, and a pump shotgun plus a couple hundred rounds of ammo) that was found in a search of a home. This mindset is prevelent here and I take it into account.

icemanmpls wrote: Regarding your comment regarding the seizure during Katrina, those seizures were all deemed illegal by the courts. During that horrible storm and its aftermath nothing was functional. Especially the NOPD.

A rather large number of those illegal confiscations were carried out by California Highway Patrol and Oklahoma National Guard. You can look up the videos to see the proof. I can almost understand the guard doing this (blindly following orders) but CHP are "Trained LEO's" who followed clearly illegal orders. Just because they were deemed illegal well after the fact does not in any way change the fact that the siezed "evidence" / property was not handled in accordance with established norms. Nor does it change the fact that the guns were pieces of junk when they were finally available for return.

I have bothered to take my circumstances into account. These include but are not limited to political landscape, area crime rate, police response time and my living situation. I have in the past been licensed for on the job carry in this state and have a better understanding of the laws governing nonLEO carry and use of force in this state than most citizens. I have listened to the advice of the LEO's that trained me and signed off on my documentation.

You circumstances will be different so you need to use good judgement based on your set of circumstances. Mine suggest that I am well served by a SxS as one of my choices.

[theicemanmpls]

No but you also know that your question is a strawman fallacy at best. Seldom if ever do you have written in case law detailing the actual deciding / influencing factors that a jury uses to form the basis of a conviction. The news stories that contain any info. on a jurors statements are also not readily searchable in all but the most publicised of cases. However, here in the DPRK we do have numerous antifirearm laws that are based on a gun's features, materials, and / or "safety" features (ie assault weapon ban, high cap mag ban, cheap gun / SNS ban, DOJ saftey certification test, 50 BMG ban, etc.). Even if your Tacticool gun is legal, the seed can easily be planted in a GFW's jurors mind that you had ill intent. There have been enough news stories in the past (shown on NBC, CBS, ABC local affiliates) where the media showcased the evil arsenal (usually a couple of 22 rifles, a couple of handguns, and a pump shotgun plus a couple hundred rounds of ammo) that was found in a search of a home. This mindset is prevelent here and I take it into account.



A rather large number of those illegal confiscations were carried out by California Highway Patrol and Oklahoma National Guard. You can look up the videos to see the proof. I can almost understand the guard doing this (blindly following orders) but CHP are "Trained LEO's" who followed clearly illegal orders. Just because they were deemed illegal well after the fact does not in any way change the fact that the seized "evidence" / property was not handled in accordance with established norms. Nor does it change the fact that the guns were pieces of junk when they were finally available for return.

I have bothered to take my circumstances into account. These include but are not limited to political landscape, area crime rate, police response time and my living situation. I have in the past been licensed for on the job carry in this state and have a better understanding of the laws governing nonLEO carry and use of force in this state than most citizens. I have listened to the advice of the LEO's that trained me and signed off on my documentation.

You circumstances will be different so you need to use good judgment based on your set of circumstances. Mine suggest that I am well served by a SxS as one of my choices.
Great argument. I am still not convinced. If someone has a diabetic coma while behind the wheel of car and runs up on the sidewalk, does it matter if its a 15 yo beater, or a $100,000. sports car?

My 12ga Mossberg has a flashlight. Uncle Mikes sleeve to hold shells on the stock. Is that considered tricked out?

What would happen if using a double barrel, both triggers were pulled during an act of self defense? In the closet was a glock, and a 12ga pump. Would the jury be told the shooter had a choice? Instead he filled the perp with two barrels of lead with the evil looking short 18" double barrel. What if one used that "evil" looking glock, instead of that pretty s&w wheelgun?

The point I think both of us are trying to make is, lawyers will use drama to win.

I contend the tools used in self defense do not matter in law.

The California nuts have taken over. Unbelievable laws. Politicians such as Diane Finespun. The state is a mess in more ways i care to list.

I was not aware the out of state helper cops were involved in seizing the lawfully owned guns of the public during the Katrina mess.


I also was licensed to carry on the job in California (Oakland).

[f4t9r]

sure, not an issue with me. It would do the job

[beatledog7]

No gun can save your life.

The quick and correct decision on your part or by someone near you can save your life, and either might involve the use of a firearm, but the gun itself figures less in the life-saving equation than the people involved. A lot less.

[EMNofSeattle]

Would I trust a double barrel? absolutely, would I prefer one..... eh well I don't see why not, but in the close confines of my home I'd choose my S&W Model 10 over a shotgun or rifle

[MCgunner]

Another advantage of the side-by-side coachgun is use as a discreet traveling long gun, especially where handguns are restricted but shotguns not as much.

Twas the original reason I bought one, sorta. See, one year I took my GoldWing motorcycle up to my buddies for our annual dove hunt and had to take my Winchester 1400 in a case strapped to the back. I was paranoid leaving it out of sight at gas stations and got to wondering what I'd do if I had a flat or trouble and had to leave the bike to get something. Can't just walk down the highway with a shotgun case.

I came across my 20 gauge spartan coach gun in a LGS for $299. Broken down, it fit easily in a saddle bag or top case of my Wing. I don't have that Wing anymore, but I can break the gun down and at least hide it in my backpack strapped to the rack on my KLR650. One doesn't look so strange with a back pack on the highway. :D It's not locked up, but only I know there's a shotgun in there. I can take it off and carry the backpack in to restaurants and such.

I was unsure how a short, whippy, light weight gun would work for wing shooting, but it's deadly, especially on birds that just appear over tree tops or for shooting around tanks where there's a lot of quick pointing. One must concentrate on the high flyers, but even there, the thing works well when I'm following through as I should. I've been able to shim the stock such that it fits me pretty well, which does help. Can't always do that with doubles, a down side, but there was enough slop in the stock's fitting (a good thing in this case) that I could reduce the right hand cast (I'm a lefty) to zero and lower the drop just enough. A recoil pad cured the pull length deficiency.

As used to the gun as I've become shooting this thing every season now for the last 6 years or so, the thing works well for me as a home defense gun. I keep two rounds of 3 buck in it, 3 rounds on the butt cuff, and 2 slugs. I just cock the hammers via breaking the gun open (explained previously in this thread) and I'm ready to go. I even use this gun a lot as a truck gun, bike gun, just runnin' around outdoors. It works for hogs, doves, rabbits, squirrels, whatever and is dandy to have around for protection. I've gotten pretty fast at the reloading since I get a lot of practice when the birds are flying fast and furious. I don't even have to look when I'm pulling the spent rounds or loading the breach, just do it. :D I sorta wish it had ejectors, would speed things up, but it works for me as is.

People have the same reload argument with single shots, but I goose hunt with one. I keep a round in my hand. I have become capable of getting two shots off at a group of geese if I can get 'em to set their wings for the first shot. They have to get up some steam to get out of Dodge after the first shot which gives me enough time to load. Having that ejector helps. I've not hit a double, yet, but I have taken down a cripple with the second shot. :D

This is why I like using my hunting guns, though, familiarity. I do hunt ducks with a pump or auto so I'm familiar with repeaters, but the little coach gun is just so bloomin' handy, almost like a handgun, really long handgun I'll admit. :D It's become my go to gun for anything short of waterfowl or buckshot on hogs, another story. I have a 12 gauge double for THAT, though, and a 10 gauge single shot.

[KodiakBeer]

Try this. The old African hunters who used double rifles carried a pair of reload shells between their offhand fingers like cigars. With very little practice you can dump your first two shells and insert the two fresh ones. In effect, the first two shots can be delivered as fast as a handgun double-tap, a slight pause and another double tap is loaded. If you put your further reloads in a fitted stock attachment (I got mine in Izevsk Russia, at the Baikal factory outlet, but there are American made ones that will serve just as well), you have a several reloads at your finger tips that (with practice) can be delivered damn near as fast as a pump gun. Certainly, your first two shots are much faster than a pump gun. You can snap a pair of shells out between your fingers for the next reload almost as fast as you can recover the gun for the next pair of shots. Watch some of those old Capstick African hunting vids to see how it's done.

It does take practice...

The real advantage, in my opinion, after using one of these for a number of years, is how short and handy they are. It's almost like a pistol, but with a payload many times greater than any handgun. It's so short that retention is not a consideration.

This is how mine is set up for quick reloads (below). Two in the barrel, two in my fingers and four ready to grasp after the first reload. It works, but only because I spent many boxes of shells practicing those quick reloads. The real advantage though, again, is how short the package is. It's a big handgun with a huge payload. In hiking in Kodiak, it's all slugs. In my home its 00 buck, and more recently #4 buck. It's short enough that nobody is going to wrestle it away without a belly full of buckshot. With #4 buck, a "double-tap" at 5 to 10 yards makes a complete mess of a pumpkin or other simulated home invader.

I have 100% confidence in my coach gun for several different tasks. I have two different pump guns, but when the SHTF, I'm grabbing the Baikal.


http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac164/kodiakbeer/Baikal2.jpg

[snooperman]

the coach guns have an advantage the pumps do not have. I can stand with my coach gun hanging by my side pointing at the floor and ready for quick shoulder action if need be. Something that is not easy to do with a larger pump. When riding my mule around the farm, I can easily lift it from the scabbard for quick action because of its shorter length, which I have done on several occasions. --Snoop

[mavracer]

not too long age I bought a 1897 winchester copy for cowboy action, I decided it could do double duty as my HD gun and sold my 870. However until I had run the '97 enough to be comfortable I left my other CAS shotgun a 1887 hammered coach gun in the closet. 2 rounds of OO buck with 4 more on the butt cuff and I slept like a baby.

[biohazurd]

If you train to reload quickly itll defend you just as well as a pump. Its all in the training.

[Pyro]

I trust my life to a single barrel as of now, so yes.

[MYREDTAIL]

It worked for John Wayne with no complaints from the BG's.?

[dprice3844444]

the doubles would be really great if they had auto ejectors on them.i have one of those savage/stevens model 311's.would i use it for hd,heck yea.

[paintballdude902]

ive killed more stuff with my remington sxs than i have with my 870 so heck yeah i would

[BeerSleeper]

I'd trust it to save my life...
.
.
.
.
.
...twice.

If I need it three times, I'd choose something else.

[MCgunner]

Well, if you needed 8 times, I'd say you needed shooting lessons. :D

[allaroundhunter]

If it is all I had, yes I would....but if you are in the market for a HD gun, there are MUCH better options without breaking the bank.

Remington 870's or Mossberg 500's with and 18.5" barrel can be had for under $400, and oftentimes even under $300

[BeerSleeper]

Well, if you needed 8 times, I'd say you needed shooting lessons

or a smaller number of targets ;)

[chieftain]

I leave the Benelli M4 in the safe. Next to my bed is my 12ga double barrel hammer gun. Next to that is a FNH SCAR MK16. On the nightstand is the railed 1911 with a Surefire X400&DG switch. The bag hanging ON the hammer gun has another Commander in the bag, extra shotgun shells, extra 1911 loaded magazines, and a couple thirty round mags for the SCAR.

If none of that works, I wasn't going to make it until morning anyway.

Folks need to remember it's about the Indian, not the arrow.

Learn how to fight, then pick your weapons.

My guns are the ones that I think will work best for me, my situation and reasons. Based on my experience, training, abilities, and choosing. You need to choose the guns that will work best for your situation and your reasons, not mine.

Then get enough training and proper practice to deploy your weapons effectively. Set up your defences for your home properly, get a dog if at all possible, also get a monitored alarm system. Think defense in depth, with your guns being the last line of that defense. Recon your neighborhood, house, yard etc... know and own your ground. Much of this can be done at no cost but time.

Good luck.

Fred

[RMc]

A Cowboy Action Competitor with a Single Action, Lever gun and Double gun
can probably run any of these better than the majority of shooters can run anything else.

Operator skill and hardware familiarity can make the difference.

[postalnut25]

I prefer pistols, so that's just me.

However, my wife grew up on SxS and O/U shotguns. So guess what, that's what she'll use for home defense. She's more effective with her 20ga SxS than any other gun, and that is what counts the most.

[Sheepdog1968]

I don't think it's the best choice you could make for a home defense Personally I prefer a pump as it holds more rounds.

[Grousefeather]

I use a SKB 100 20 GA. best bird gun I have used so far. RARELY miss.

[whalerman]

Thanks guys. This has been an interesting read. I've had the misfortune of having to use a gun twice in my career as a LEO. It all came down to habit, what I had practiced. I can't tell you much of anything about the mechanics of what took place because I can't remember those details. The occasions involved the use of a handgun. I'm thinking, from my experience, use of a shotgun for HD will be much the same. It will be what you are comfortable with and what you have practiced with. That's what your moderators seem to preach. Get to know your shotgun, be it double, pump, or semi. Tricked or simple.

[chieftain]

it will be what you are comfortable with and what you have practiced with. That's what your moderators seem to preach. Get to know your shotgun, be it double, pump, or semi. Tricked or simple.

bingo!

I have always found it interesting that folks with real world experience most often wind up at this realization.

Training and practice win AGAIN and remember what Col John Boyd tried to get us to understand.

It's the INDIAN, not the arrow.

Simply amazing.

Good luck.

Fred

[Dave McCracken]

Amen!!

By Gadfrey, they've GOT it....

[Samari Jack]

I figured I'd make a new thread on this subject, just discovered the Stoeger Double Defense, comes in over/under or side by side, options of 12 or 20 GA, It's a nice looking shotty, just unsure if it'd be the smart approach to a HD shotgun with their only being 2 shots. What does THR think?

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger-double-defense.php
Why 20" and not 18? Is 20" the legal minimum in some states? Why improved cylinder and not open bore, straight cylinder, especially for HD?

[MCgunner]

I trust my Spartan 20 gauge coach gun, but I've got several good dove seasons under its belt and I am one with it. It's a solid firearm, has proven itself to me. I would trust the Stoegers IF they performed flawlessly as has my Spartan, but I probably wouldn't buy those particular models, not the best for hunting, and I don't need no stinkin' rails. If I wanted tacticool, I'd get a pump or auto loaded down with 30 lbs worth of accessories. :rolleyes: Only thing I do with mine is change the ammo to 3 buck and put a butt cuff on it with additional rounds. I even leave the IC/mod choke tubes in, not anal about choke at home defense ranges.

I'm not looking to run and gun with my coach gun. I just wanna defend my bedroom/safe room. I've fitted the gun to me pretty well, now, and it shoots where I point it quite naturally. And, I AM pretty fast on the reloads, lots of practice with that dove hunting. I have to dig out the fired rounds, rather have an ejector, but I handle the gun pretty well.

[44 Dave]

Where I live it is more likely a bear on my front steps or coon after the chickens.
my HD is coach gun with choice of shot or rubber slugs The Colt 44-40 also behind the closet door.
Dave

[Chevelle SS]

Old Stevens 311 works for me

[IMTHDUKE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pnnGWz6zfQ&feature=youtu.be

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=657405

[chieftain]

Old Stevens 311 works for me

BINGO!

Mine says Sears on it. Same gun. I didn't buy it, but my father bought it from Sears and Roebuck in the early to mid 50's.

I guesstimate it has about 10,000 rounds through it. It is the gun I started bird/rabbit/squirrel hunting with. Took some small boars with it too. And sent a lot of rattlers and water moccasins to their 72 virgins or what ever.

Not the double hammer gun I use next to the bed at home today, but when I still did hunt, that ole' Sears double saw duty.

Good luck.

Fred

[Old judge creek]

Only 2 shots? We had a Cowboy Action shooter bring his stage coach gun to a recent tactical shotgun match and he scored better than 80% of the shooters who used pumps or semi-autos. How did he do it? He knew how to reload... exceedingly better than most!!!...

I've been a SASS shooter for 18 years now and I can tell you that my Stoeger Coach gun has been my Home Defense, Ranch Defense, RV Defense... etc gun for most of those years. And most SASS SxS shotgunners have the reloading drill down cold.

Sorry for the thread drift but I have to say that:

As for the SASS shotgunner you saw - my pard Cheapshot and I were at a falling plate match once and the competitors were so miffed at our laughing at how many rounds it was taking them to clean a rack of plates that they challenged us. We outshot the best they had to offer.... using our single action revolvers.

[chieftain]

Your 'Honor' I agree with you totally.

The problem is that most folks never really accept the fact that fighting with or without guns, as so much in life is. "It's about the Indian, not the arrow."

Train and practice, and when your done, train and practice some more.

Go figure.

Fred