fillers


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tahoe2
February 4, 2012, 10:15 PM
what should I use to fill the case in reduced loads (1/2 to 2/3 full)?
is cotton from cotton balls acceptable?

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rcmodel
February 4, 2012, 10:24 PM
No!!!

Cotton doesn't burn all that well.
It can clog up, or pack in the bore and stick and create a bore obstruction.

Dacron pillow stuffing is an accepted filler.
It burns instantly without leaving any residue.

But, what load are you filling, and why are you stuffing it???
Some reduced loads don't need stuffing.
Many 1/2 full cases are not reduced loads.
And some 1/2 full cases are likely to blow up in your face, stuffing or not!

Need more details of the load before you shoot your eye out with stuffing!!

rc

tahoe2
February 4, 2012, 11:19 PM
7x57 mauser out of my Speer #11 manual
26 grns IMR 4198 under a Hornady 139 btsp for 2200 fps, stuffing (loosely)
just to keep the powder in contact with the primer for better ignition.

4895
February 4, 2012, 11:30 PM
Be careful putting things in the case that don't belong. If you have a compensator for example, you will likely cause damage to it. Smokeless powder should not need a 'filler' like black powder. Double check your load book and ask questions when needed.

4895
February 4, 2012, 11:33 PM
I believe you can use H-4895 for reduced rifle loads. That is the only one I use for light loads. No stuffing needed.

tahoe2
February 5, 2012, 12:45 AM
no compensater, vintage 1931 Spanish mauser long rifle, 7x57, I read somewhere long ago that a loose filler would help keep the powder in line with primer ignition.
I haven't seen any reduced loads for H4895, but I use full power loads in my 8mm mauser, it groups pretty good with those.

4895
February 5, 2012, 01:23 AM
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

check it out. 7x57 is listed.

ReloaderFred
February 5, 2012, 01:36 AM
Loads with case fillers have to be worked up from the start with the filler. You can't just add filler to any load, since it increases pressure, among other things. One of the bad things that can happen is you can ring your chamber, which means there will be an expansion caused by the filler and it basically ruins a good chamber.

I have a couple of loads that require case filler, but I use Super Grex, which is discontinued. I have just enough of it to last me until I die. Those loads were worked up from the very beginning using the Grex as a filler.

Hope this helps.

Fred

35 Whelen
February 5, 2012, 02:09 AM
There's a shotshell buffer called PSB that is perfect for a filler. I've used it in my .303's with both IMR4198 and SR4759. I weighed the amount required to fill the case, than added that to the weight of the bullet and adjusted my charges accordingly. Cream of Wheat also works well.
You might do some research over at the Cast Boolit site as those goes have forgotten more about the use of fillers than most of us will ever know.

35W

kingmt
February 5, 2012, 09:52 AM
I trided them for a while. I only found them to increase pressure. If I was to use them then a little piece of toilet paper folded & pushed against the powder seemed like the best thing.

918v
February 5, 2012, 07:49 PM
Fillers ruin accuracy.

Get some Tail Boss and load up to the base of the bullet. Whatever advantage other powders hold is overshadowed by the convenience.

35 Whelen
February 5, 2012, 11:19 PM
Fillers ruin accuracy.

Get some Tail Boss and load up to the base of the bullet. Whatever advantage other powders hold is overshadowed by the convenience.
Interesting. I've had the exact opposite experience with filler. As I stated above, I used filler when loading extruded powders such as IMR4198 and SR4759 in a couple of .303's. I actually found out about using fillers from an excellent article on the now defunct Surplus Rifle website. In the article, the difference in non-filler and filler loads was substantial.
Despite the excellent reports from using Trail Boss, all of which I find credible and believeable, I doubt I'll ever use it because it's about 25% more expensive than the shotgun/pistol type powders I've been using for several years now.

918, what cartridge and powder were you using when fillers destroyed your accuracy?

35W

kingmt
February 6, 2012, 06:17 AM
Red Dot, Bullseye, 10B101, WC844, WC846, & .... It never helped in the loads I've tried but it sure does push the pressure up.

35 Whelen
February 6, 2012, 07:45 AM
Red Dot, Bullseye, 10B101, WC844, WC846, & .... It never helped in the loads I've tried but it sure does push the pressure up.
I'm not sure fillers were ever intended to be used with powders such as B'Eye, Red Dot and other pistol/shotgun powders. Powders such as these, especially the two you mentioned, are very position insensitive and ignite easily so really don't need fillers.
IMR4198 is the slowest powder I've ever tried in reduced loads so I don't know about the others.

35W

kingmt
February 6, 2012, 09:01 AM
I agree just the ones I've tried & they shot worse.

I read somewhere about someone haveing good luck so I tried to see what results I got.

fguffey
February 6, 2012, 09:39 AM
Dacron pillow stuffing is an accepted filler.
It burns instantly without leaving any residue.

Fantastic, simply FANTASTIC, a pillow filler that burns as fast as gunpowder in a chamber, and it burns completely, and fast, so fast the time used to measure rate of burn is in milliseconds???
One of the closest firing ranges is having trouble staying open, seems there is no such thing as ‘too cheap to shoot’. Bullets are being collected that have escaped the range and hit houses a mile away, anyhow, shooters are doing it to themselves.

I was involved in a similar discussion, in the real world, had to do with melted lead, seems the powder burning in the chamber melts the back of the bullet, and I said something like, lead melts faster than paper burns? and I say that because I have shot paper wrapped bullets and noticed when walking the range to the target I found paper from the bullets unburned, so I wondered how is it possible to train paper not to burn when the heat is sufficient to melt the back of a lead bullet, then I wondered about compression as it applies to something between primer/powder and back of the bullet, I understand the bullet leaves the case and is forced out the barrel, I also understand when something is compressed compression has an effect on shortening the material, I also understand when something is compressed the compressed material is forced outward, it is at this point I decide against compressing materials between the head of the case and back of the bullet because I do not know how dense this material is when the pressure goes up to many thousands of pounds, and I do know about sandblasting. I also know the nozzle last longer if it is made of a ceramic material.

Then there is the phenomenal occurrence , reduced loads and rendering your gun scrap, it does not happen often, but in the beginning, it had to do with reduced loads, and the ‘catch all phrase’ when something is rendered scrap, “I ‘musta’ double charged one of the cases”.

F. Guffey

918v
February 6, 2012, 10:36 AM
35W:

I tried them in the 44 Mag, 357 Mag, 308, and 45-70. If you tip the gun up before every shot there is no benefit. Adding filler doubled group size. It raised pressures. So I gave up on it.

ReloaderFred
February 6, 2012, 01:14 PM
It's pretty clear from this discussion that only 35 Whelen, rcmodel and I understand the use and purpose of case fillers in "some" cartridges and component combinations in those cartridges. Walkalong also does, but he hasn't joined this discussion.

As I stated above, loads with case fillers, and that means proper case fillers, MUST be worked up from the beginning with the filler in place. You don't just add a case filler to an existing load and hope for better results. That's a recipe for disaster.

Blanket statements that "they don't work" clearly show a lack of understanding of the issue, and the reasons for using them in "some" loads.

I don't recommend the novice reloader trying to add a case filler, since most don't understand what goes on inside the case when the primer strikes the firing pin. There are whole chapters written on case fillers and how, and when, to use them. One line statements don't negate those many chapters of research and experience.

Hope this helps.

Fred

kingmt
February 6, 2012, 03:46 PM
-----------------

kingmt
February 6, 2012, 04:04 PM
It's pretty clear from this discussion that only 35 Whelen, rcmodel and I understand the use and purpose of case fillers in "some" cartridges and component combinations in those cartridges. Walkalong also does, but he hasn't joined this discussion.

Fred
Thinking pretty high of yourself.

what should I use to fill the case in reduced loads (1/2 to 2/3 full)?
is cotton from cotton balls acceptable?

It sounds like he is talking about any powder that doesn't fill the case.

Shadow 7D
February 6, 2012, 04:09 PM
What Reloaderfred said

SOME reduced loads have a small amount of powder, there is a phenomenon that can cause smokeless powder to detonate, NOT burn if too little is used, it has to do with how the pressure wave builds. My understanding is filler won't help that.

It's rather complicated, and quite frankly beyond my current understanding.

ONE THING I DO KNOW
a case filler is MUCH different than shot buffer, shot buffer is just that, a space filling powder that is designed to cushion shot keeping is spherical and improve the pattern.

A metallic case filler is something used to fill the neck and top of the case to keep the powder closer to the primer etc. They why and hows and whens I don't know, and would be leery to mess with unless I do understand what I'm doing and why.

In general, if you don't understand why someone/something varies from the regular steps of reloading, don't do it, stick to what you know is safe, your eyes, fingers and life are not something to be gambled on something you heard about somewhere....

Shadow 7D
February 6, 2012, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by ReloaderFred View Post
It's pretty clear from this discussion that only 35 Whelen, rcmodel and I understand the use and purpose of case fillers in "some" cartridges and component combinations in those cartridges. Walkalong also does, but he hasn't joined this discussion.

Fred

Thinking pretty high of yourself.

It sounds like he is talking about any powder that doesn't fill the case.
Have you read his posts, have you asked him questions?

I find his answers agree with 'reliable sources' like powder manufactures and pass the sniff test, he is quite knowledgeable on this subject. Just like RCmodel, who I have PM questions, and he was kinds enough to answer them and explain it in a way I understood.

918v
February 6, 2012, 04:55 PM
Blanket statements that "they don't work" clearly show a lack of understanding of the issue, and the reasons for using them in "some" loads.

Are you talking about me? I never said they don't work, just that they ruin accuracy. I hope I don't have to explain the difference between those two statements.

And how do you know I didn't work up the loads? You think you're the only one around here who knows how to slap a round together?

I'm not interested in 3 MOA accuracy with filler if my gun is shooting MOA without.

gamestalker
February 6, 2012, 04:59 PM
I used dacron for some reduced 45LC loads a few years ago after encountering evidense of position sensitive powder burning. Accuracy was fine.
I actually learned of dacron from my #10 Speer. If memory serves me well, (questionable) Speer defined the method quite loosely. But none the less, it worked just fine in the 45LC for me. I didn't weigh it, I just used enough to keep the powder in position to the flash hole, which didn't require much at all.
But I wouldn't add it to a case unless I'm seeing evidense of ignition or burn issues as follows. If the case is sooted only on one side all the way back to the head, but then it goes away after positioning the firearm vertically and then carefully lowering it to a latteral position, your experiencing a position sensitive powder burn.

kingmt
February 6, 2012, 07:04 PM
Yes. I read his post. I think his post are very informative to the new members of this form. He also post resources with a lot of knowledge. I also think he goes a little beyond on some things that doesn't mater. This isn't here or there tho. I just thought that statement was a little conceded.

35 Whelen
February 6, 2012, 07:50 PM
It appears that some of you here, when discussing the potential use of fillers, think of using it in everything. In handgun calibers, I've loaded 32 ACP, 9mm, 38 Spec, 357 Mag, 45 ACP and 45 Colt using loads ranging from low velocity round ball loads to full power loads. I never used or saw any use in fillers in these cartridges.
Again, I used them with great success in an Enfield #4. The groove diameter of its barrel was .315" or .316" and my biggest mould cast a .314" bullet. Loaded as such, leading and accuracy was horrible. But I discovered that the use of PSB for filler completely eliminated the leading and accuracy was markedly improved. I eventually sold the rifle and haven't used filler since but I certainly learned when and how to use filler.
The old Surplus Rifle website was a treasure trove of information on reloading. It's a crying shame that site had to shut down. Anyhow, it was there read a wonderful article on using fillers. The author loaded cast bullets in cartridges such as the .308 and improved his accuracy quite alot.

35W

ReloaderFred
February 6, 2012, 09:37 PM
Well, I see I touched some nerves with my last post. Sorry about that, but I've got a little experience under my belt and load for more than one caliber. I make it a practice to only post on subjects I've actually got experience with.

I've made mistakes over the years and my goal is to prevent others from making some of those same mistakes. Those who choose to heed some offered advice will profit. Those who don't, won't. Simple as that.

With that said, I do have a problem with posts that just say simply "it won't work". At least offer up some experience to back it up, or at least where the information is coming from. It's not fair to the original poster to give a short answer and not tell them why. At least that's the way I see it.

And yes, I do have a high opinion of myself, since I know me better than anyone else!.....

Hope this helps.

Fred

35 Whelen
February 6, 2012, 09:57 PM
well, i see i touched some nerves with my last post. Sorry about that, but i've got a little experience under my belt and load for more than one caliber. I make it a practice to only post on subjects i've actually got experience with.

I've made mistakes over the years and my goal is to prevent others from making some of those same mistakes. Those who choose to heed some offered advice will profit. Those who don't, won't. Simple as that.

With that said, i do have a problem with posts that just say simply "it won't work". At least offer up some experience to back it up, or at least where the information is coming from. It's not fair to the original poster to give a short answer and not tell them why. At least that's the way i see it.

And yes, i do have a high opinion of myself, since i know me better than anyone else!.....

Hope this helps.

Fred
+1

35w

fguffey
February 7, 2012, 06:39 PM
http://www.lsjunction.com/facts/crush.htm

I choose not to put anything between the primer/powder and base of the bullet, do not get me wrong, I think a lot of methods and techniques practiced by reloaders is cute, again, I choose not to.

F. Guffey

tahoe2
February 12, 2012, 12:46 AM
I will try to explain myself better. My question was kind of general, as in; does anyone have experience using them(fillers) ? and what products they were, and under what conditions ? cast bullets? jacketed?
But it was also concerning my specific situation; as I posted in #3 -- 7x57 mauser with a Hornady 139grn btsp, 26 grns IMR 4198(starting load) in my #11 Speer manual. 1931 Spanish mauser. "Of course I don't want to blow myself up"! On that note; I was not concerned so much with accuracy (although that would be nice), these are just good ' ol ' plinking rounds, for fun and economical shooting, and I was concerned about misfires due to low powder volume in the case. When checking on cast bullets, they are just about the same price as jacketed, so I will use jacketed until I run out. I have reloaded for many years and never shot reduced loads in a bottleneck case before. Therefore my concern and questions. I have plenty of guns that I shoot Hi power loads through.

EddieNFL
February 12, 2012, 09:11 AM
There's a shotshell buffer called PSB that is perfect for a filler.

Back ion the silhouette days I used PSB in a couple of reduced loads for cast bullets with excellent results. My 7TCU load was good for 1.5MOA. Adding PSB reduced group size to MOA...a little better on a good day. I liked it because I could use a measure to add.

I was always leery of using fillers with jacketed bullets, though.

Clark
February 12, 2012, 10:58 AM
I use 1010 steel as a filler, but I have to make a pipeline between the primer and the powder.

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