Black Rifles ?


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dastardly-D
February 5, 2012, 06:16 PM
Having looked thru some of the threads,I don't see much,or any good about DPMS brand rifles.Could I see some pros or cons about this brand,I was about to get one ?

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CmdrSlander
February 5, 2012, 06:20 PM
Avoid them. They are owned by freedom group, a conglomerate which usually strips its companies down to the point where there is very little quality control. Case in point: Marlin in recent years and Bushmaster, both wrecked by FG. :banghead:

ClickClickD'oh
February 5, 2012, 06:24 PM
...and the counter point... I've been using a DPMS rifle for work for years now. It's been through plenty of training classes and few competitions without needing more than the usual maintenance. AR snobs aside, I think it's a great rifle.

mljdeckard
February 5, 2012, 06:25 PM
They are no worse than any other entry-level AR. Most rifles will work for most shooters most of the time. You have to drive an AR pretty hard to expose the differences between a $700 rifle and a $1500 rifle.

RetroMan
February 5, 2012, 06:26 PM
I bought one from Midway a couple years back. Wasn't inpressed by the fit & finish. Lots of machineing marks inside the receiver. Sent it back the next day.

Midway neglected to list the absense of a forward assist in their product description and deleted my product review stating so.

Some folks like them.

But some folks also like Hi-Points too.

*ducks and runs*

jpwilly
February 5, 2012, 06:28 PM
I cannot say firsthand that DPMS has gone downhill. I have a couple DPMS rifles built in 2005 without any quality or function issues plus they are very accurate rifles too. Id say if you were looking for something in the same price range Palmetto State Armory would be a good rifle although for just a little more a BCM would be a fine weapon.

Aiko492
February 5, 2012, 09:09 PM
For the price (I am guessing you might be looking @ the Panther Lite) you can buy something of better quality I.e. SW Sport. The Panther Lite I bought a couple years ago did not have a properly staked carrier for example.

Captains1911
February 5, 2012, 10:06 PM
Better can be had for the same price.

TexasPatriot.308
February 5, 2012, 10:08 PM
I stick with Armalite as in AR for Armalite. good price, proven quality and they are the only real AR.

NeuseRvrRat
February 5, 2012, 10:09 PM
i try to avoid Freedom Group products on principle

whalerman
February 5, 2012, 10:11 PM
Make suggestions Captains1911.

JoeMal
February 5, 2012, 10:12 PM
I don't see much,or any good about DPMS brand riflesThere is a reason for that

Captains1911
February 5, 2012, 10:14 PM
I stick with Armalite as in AR for Armalite. good price, proven quality and they are the only real AR.


Armalite of today is not the same company that first produced ARs.

dastardly-D
February 5, 2012, 10:17 PM
This is going kind of like I thought.I do have a Colt H-Bar and wanted something lighter just to play with,you know,up to maybe 200 yards ? I've had a PF-9 start to go bad on me,but the company made it right.A Kahr CW45 was bad out the gate,but the company made it right.It seems everything from cars to guns to TV's and mixers are a crapshoot ? Thanks for the input guys . Ahhhh,how about accuracy to 200 yards ? A red dot ok,I really don't want a magnified scope............

shootniron
February 5, 2012, 10:22 PM
3)The Gun Forum Guys

Have struck again...

Ahhhh,how about accuracy to 200 yards ? A red dot ok,I really don't want a magnified scope............

On the ones I have been around, the reliabillty has been fine as well as the accuracy. Bushnell red dot seems to work fine and is not that expensive.

tbow1964
February 5, 2012, 10:34 PM
I heard that Remington recently bought DPMS as well as Bushmaster. Does that mean Freedom group owns Remington or is my info incorrect?

mljdeckard
February 5, 2012, 10:40 PM
Armalite is no more or less the 'real' anything than any other manufacturer.

NeuseRvrRat
February 5, 2012, 10:45 PM
Remington Arms
Bushmaster Firearms International
DPMS Panther Arms
Marlin
H & R Firearms
NEF
Dakota Arms
LC Smith
Parker HAIL
AAC – Advanced Armament Corporation
Barnes Bullets
EOTAC
INT-C
Para USA


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Group

snakeman
February 5, 2012, 10:54 PM
I think most of the people that are having trouble with dpms rifles just don't know how to accurize them or are having trouble with the lr series. Here's my 6.8 upper that I put the tube on and set into a s&w lower with a rock river trigger and a2 stock. It's been 100% reliable through 200 rounds and yes I've let it get a little dirty.

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o483/quarrycreek/68x3.jpg

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o483/quarrycreek/68x2.jpg

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o483/quarrycreek/IMG_20110816_214230.jpg

That's a 1" red circle at 100 yards on 9x with a nighteater scope.

Chopdoktor
February 5, 2012, 11:01 PM
I have an absolute tack-driver DPMS LR-308, 24" stainless free-floated barrel, 3# 2-stage trigger, and it runs like a boss. I've done a few builds on DPMS AR15 lower receivers, and I have no complaints there, either. That's just my experience. I'm sure there are several sour people out there with bad experiences, as well. I don't have an issue buying their parts.

browningguy
February 5, 2012, 11:08 PM
I have two DPMS lowers and one upper, never had a bit of problem with them shooting everything from .22lr through .50 Beowulf.

The standard DPMS trigger is nothing to write home about, but neither is a Colt or any of the milspec guns. That's easy to cure with a drop in Timney or McCormick, or a JP. My 16" bull barrel upper isn't as accurate as some I have shot, in fact my 18" RRA upper is more accurate, but it's still an MOA gun with most Black Hills ammo from 52-67 gr.

Now of course I am not fighting a war with mine, I do clean them on occassion, and rarely find myself dragging them through the mud and sand and trying to shoot them.

ugaarguy
February 6, 2012, 02:02 AM
They are no worse than any other entry-level AR.
I beg to differ. I've seen too many with tight chambers that had function problems. That's before we get into unlined / untreated barrels, untested bolts, improperly staked carrier keys, under-sprung extractors in carbines, commercial buffer tubes, and lack of buffer tube castle nut staking. There are FAR better entry level rifles on the market for similar money.

I stick with Armalite as in AR for Armalite. good price, proven quality and they are the only real AR.
Yes, the long defunct Armalite division of Fairchild Aviation. They sold the original plans, name, and production rights of the real AR-15 to Colt. The current Armalite of Illinois has as much in common with the real Armalite as the current Springfield Armory in IL has with the real Springfield Armory in Springfield, MA.

Chris-bob
February 6, 2012, 02:20 AM
I think most of the people that are having trouble with dpms rifles just don't know how to accurize them
When I purchase a new firearm, why should I have to 'accurize' it? That should never be the case. Who knowingly purchases a firearm that requires accurization(if that's a word) out of the box?(I'm not talking about acc. or optics))

MachIVshooter
February 6, 2012, 02:52 AM
Armalite of today is not the same company that first produced ARs

This is correct. Eagle arms bought the rights to the Armalite name in 1996. That said, they make top notch rifles with a lifetime warranty. Good company to deal with, too.

The current AR-10 is, however, exclusive to Armalite, Inc. Theirs is also built with a stronger 7175 alloy.

Now, about DPMS......

Not the worst out there, but in my experience, not the best either. I'd say they're an ok option if you're looking for a factory rifle that no one else offers, like the 24" heavy fluted stainless in .204 Ruger my sister bought. It shoots decent, reliability is acceptable for a varmint rifle.

Would I buy one? No.

Steel Talon
February 6, 2012, 02:55 AM
Why don"t you build your own? A friend of mine had a DPMS which inspried me to build my own.

Here's mine

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh239/SteelTalon01/DSCN1232.jpg

5 @ 100

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh239/SteelTalon01/DSCN1235.jpg

madcratebuilder
February 6, 2012, 06:22 AM
They are no worse than any other entry-level AR. Most rifles will work for most shooters most of the time. You have to drive an AR pretty hard to expose the differences between a $700 rifle and a $1500 rifle.
+1

The best deal on AR's in the $600-800 price range is from Palmetto State Armory. High quality barrels and bolts that are the heart of the AR system.

nastynatesfish
February 6, 2012, 10:28 AM
my first ar was a dpms oracle. shot the crap out of it with not a hitch. i swapped uppers because i wanted a forward assist and a dust cover. my second was a dpms 204. 24" bull barrel. shot the crap out of it too just got tired with the round. sold it for a 6.8spcll. im waiting for my 260 to get here. im sure itll have no problems either.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 10:52 AM
I try to stay out of these, but the guys with the "you get what you pay for" attitude are the guys keeping one of my local "car salesman" gun shops in business. The old car salesman "you get what you pay for" line makes me want to vomit.

I have an $800 or so AR that I BUILT that I will put up against any $1,500+ AR any day. As a matter of fact, I went into the "car salesman" gun shop before I built it. The EXACT rifle that I built (without expensive brand names stamped all over it) in that shop was "ON SALE" for around $1,500. I have a benchrest Remington 700 that I BUILT for $1,100 or so that I will put up against any $4,000 off the shelf "accurized" 700 or clone.

The key words here are "I BUILT". If you go into a store and buy things that are finished by some union line worker making $35 an hour to push a button, don't be surprised when those things are 3X as expensive as they should be.

If you TRULY understand how things work, what makes a good design, and etc. instead of blindly buying whatever is the most expensive because it must be the "best", then you can usually make, build, or tweak something to make it just as good or even better for less money.

I do this for a living.

I realize I am probably an extreme case and not everyone has the desire, ability, equipment, or etc. to make/build/tweak things, but even buying off the shelf, America needs to get out of the idea that the most expensive thing MUST be the "best"

MachIVshooter
February 6, 2012, 11:33 AM
The old car salesman "you get what you pay for" line makes me want to vomit.

You certainly don't always get what you pay for. But you NEVER get what you don't pay for.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 11:38 AM
You certainly don't always get what you pay for. But you NEVER get what you don't pay for.

Actually, my point was that yes, you can. I can name many, many things that I can get the top dollar quality with a little extra effort without paying top dollar money.

MachIVshooter
February 6, 2012, 11:51 AM
I can name many, many things that I can get the top dollar quality with a little extra effort without paying top dollar money.

To that end, it's a matter of perception. And as with anything, the cost-to-benefit ratio narrows drastically as you get toward the top end. IOW, you can pick up a mediocre unit for $500, a good unit for $1,000, a great unit might be $1,800 and the cream of the crop is $4k. The very best isn't 4 times better than the good, even though it's 4 times the price.

Let's look at tools instead of guns.........

I wrench for a living. There are obviously many levels of tool quality. For the average joe, china-made Harbor Freight, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. tools will do pretty much everything he needs at a minimal cost. So dude feels he got a great deal.

For the shadetree, a few busted knuckles will convince him that he needs to step it up a notch. For this guy, Sears Craftsman represents a good value. They're much better than the bottom rung tools.

However, for those of us doing it professionally who have wrecked countless tools and fasteners and lost time and money on account of Crafstman being a mid-grade, we end up spending the big bucks for Matco, Snap-On, etc.

A Snap-On socket set may cost 10 times what a Craftsman one does and 30 times what a Harbor Freight set does. For some, it's way too much money and does not represent a good value. These are the people who feel they didn't get what they paid for. But for those of us who's livelihood depends on it, we need the best, and it's absolutely worth paying top dollar for something that works better and saves time, pain and aggravation.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 12:01 PM
You have a good point. I certainly understand about tools. There are definitely areas where my above points (or ranting) will not apply. Wrenches, for instance, are more expensive for very definite reasons, as you pointed out. The higher quality metals and manufacturing processes cost more money. That cannot be argued. It is when we get to things that are IDENTICAL where one costs more money simply because it has a name stamped on it which is what bothers me.

JustinJ
February 6, 2012, 12:07 PM
I try to stay out of these, but the guys with the "you get what you pay for" attitude are the guys keeping one of my local "car salesman" gun shops in business. The old car salesman "you get what you pay for" line makes me want to vomit.

I'm not so much concerned with "getting what i pay for" as much as "knowing what i got". Hence, I like Colt.

jrdolall
February 6, 2012, 12:19 PM
I bought a DPMS Panther Lite NIB last year and have had zero issues with the gun. No jams using Tula ammo. I put a red dot sight and it is reasonable accurate at 100 yards freehand. I have not fired 1000's of rounds through it, nor will I, but it is as good as my Bushmaster for $300 less.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 12:34 PM
I guess maybe I can clarify with an example. I know I ramble sometimes.

I wrench for a living.

Something came to mind when you said you are a wrencher that you can probably relate to. In the past, I was shopping for a Dana 44 axle for my Jeep. I soon learned to not let shops know that I was shopping for a Jeep because the exact same Dana 44 components from the hundreds of other vehicles they can come from are double the price when they say Jeep on them.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 01:18 PM
Well, I completely hijacked this thread.

Anyway, OP, get whatever AR suits your wants, needs, and price range. I was just trying to say don't let the salesman tell you that brand X mil spec 7071-T6 receiver, mil spec barrel and whatever else is any different than brand Y's.

MachIVshooter
February 6, 2012, 01:36 PM
It is when we get to things that are IDENTICAL where one costs more money simply because it has a name stamped on it which is what bothers me.

Now that's a whole different animal, and yes, it certainly applies in the AR world (and firearm world as a whole).

We see it with tools, too. The big names do repackage and relabel many things and sell them at a higher cost. Hence why my taps and dies are all labeled Vermont American or Irwin; I'll not pay twice as much for the same taps and dies to come in a blow-molded Snap-On or Mac case.

This is where researching pays off.

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 6, 2012, 01:48 PM
Research is definitely key. That's one of the reasons why THR is so important. I like the analogy with tools, but there is one subtle difference. Marketing. Now I'm pretty much an idiot when it comes to tools, so perhaps a more learned gearhead can correct me, but I would bet that people don't buy top of the line wrenches so that they can feel like they are "just like the best mechanics". But look at some gun owners. Some gunowners do buy guns or accessories so that they can be using the same thing Delta or Devgru uses. There is an image there that I would guess doesn't apply to tools that often. Gun companies know this, and market their products to take advantage of this. Why do gun magazine ads always show cops and soldiers carrying their weapons, and not regular guys at the range?

Now don't get me wrong, there is a difference between a Colt and a Bushmaster AR (I have both and they both shoot well, but I'd only take the Colt to a class). There's a difference between Tapco and Magpul. Between Burris and Trijicon.

But before you make the purchase, ask yourself "Do I really need to buy the best?" Are you just buying it because of the good feelings you get from knowing you have top of the line? Or are you buying it because you take a lot of carbine classes or competitions and you really can't afford to have it break down in the middle? Don't let the marketing people tell you what you need. Decide how you plan on shooting it, what your priorities are, and go from there.

MachIVshooter
February 6, 2012, 01:55 PM
I would bet that people don't buy top of the line wrenches so that they can feel like they are "just like the best mechanics".

I'd say that's pretty accurate. The professional lines don't really advertise to Joe Schmoe, nor do make them particularly avaialble to the masses. Not like you can run down to your local Matco retail store.

As an aside, like guns, there are parent companies that manufacture several lines. Danahur makes both Craftsman and Matco, Stanley makes Mac. You can often see the resemblance, too. However, the different lines are not the same quality. Just as Mossberg makes the Maverick 88 line, but an 88 is not a 590; If you buy a Maverick, You're getting a Mossberg, but it's not the same gun.

But look at some gun owners. Some gunowners do buy guns or accessories so that they can be using the same thing Delta or Devgru uses.

Very true. Guns and Golf Clubs, huh? Lol.

But before you make the purchase, ask yourself "Do I really need to buy the best?" Are you just buying it because of the good feelings you get from knowing you have top of the line? Or are you buying it because you take a lot of carbine classes or competitions and you really can't afford to have it break down in the middle? Don't let the marketing people tell you what you need. Decide how you plan on shooting it, what your priorities are, and go from there.

Always sound advice.

Also, figure out if you're paying for core quality, or just some fancy pakaging and bells & whistles. When you buy a Chrysler 300 instead of a Dodge Charger, you're not getting a better car. You're getting different cosmetics and fancier trim at a higher price tag. But when you buy a Colt or Armalite instead of a DPMS or Bushmaster, your extra dollars really are paying for a better gun.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 02:08 PM
Yep, sales and marketing is the root of all evil. :evil:

Also, figure out if you're paying for core quality, or just some fancy pakaging and bells & whistles. When you buy a Chrysler 300 instead of a Dodge Charger, you're not getting a better car. You're getting different cosmetics and nicer trim.

Exactly what I was trying to say. Nice.

Captains1911
February 6, 2012, 03:11 PM
The concept that seems to often get missed in threads like these is that in today's market, better, higher quality rifles that are built with higher quality parts, with a greater degree of QA/QC, and attention to proper assembly, can be had for essentially the same price as their lesser quality counterparts. So whether or not a person "needs" the better rifle, why in the hell would any reasonable person pay the same amount of money for an inferior product?

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 03:28 PM
Again, marketing. BS like "This is what they use over there" and "You get what you pay for" will make somebody spend more money for something of the same core quality. That is also where this "better" and "inferior" talk comes from when they are really the same level of core quality. So it's not that the "inferior" ones are really inferior. It's that the "better" ones are more expensive for other reasons.

Captains1911
February 6, 2012, 03:32 PM
People who claim that all rifles are of equal quality are either uneducated, or in denial over the fact that they bought a lower quality product before doing their homework. Don't be one of those people.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 03:37 PM
People who claim that their $1,500 expensive roll marked rifles are of markedly higher quality than anything else are either uneducated, or in denial over the fact that they spent WAY too much money before doing their homework. Don't be one of those people.

Obviously we aren't comparing a plastic airsoft gun to a $2,000 Larue. CORE QUALITY... a forged piece of 7071-T6 is a forged piece of 7071-T6.

Captains1911
February 6, 2012, 03:50 PM
Who said anything about $1500 rifles? Even Colt 6920s can be had for less than $1000 today, and yes, they are of higher quality than DPMS. There are others that do better than DPMS that are closer in price.

dastardly-D
February 6, 2012, 03:53 PM
Well I certainly got a ton of info on this thread and I really enjoyed the discussion ! There is a whole lot of truth to glean out of all this,some outright hostility towards the Freedom Group,who I know nothing about. The deal is $550 for a 16'' Flat top,no sights.Gathering what I read,it shouldn't cost too much to build this up to a reasonable fun gun for 200 yard shots at groundhogs,rocks,cans and paper.Hopefully,anyhow.Thank you guys....

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 03:57 PM
The point is that you are paying for the final quality. The fact that a master gunsmith hand polished and installed everything, etc., etc.

Many of us are willing and able (and even enjoy) doing all of that ourselves. Therefore, $1,500 rifle "quality" can be had for "DPMS" prices. That is all I am saying.

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 6, 2012, 04:16 PM
Did you spend $1,500 because it's a better rifle? Or is it a "better" rifle because you spent $1,500 on it?

The two not the same.

kfgk14
February 6, 2012, 04:23 PM
The probem is QC and QA. If you're lucky enough to find a good one, wonderful. That's great, enjoy the rifle. But, they're known to use sub-standard manufacturing techniques and materials, meaning the rifles don't follow the established military specifications. You will be told that DPMS guns are fielded abroad by our military, this is a load of crap. Never have they been, and until they change their practices, never will they be.

Their customer service is apparently a nightmare, I didn't attempt it when I was dumb enough to buy a DPMS gun years ago, and it failed me miserably. I simply repaired the failure and returned the gun to the shop. They've since stopped dealing in DPMS because of how many issues they saw.

For what it's worth, I'd advise you to just buy a PSA rifle/carbine, and then be happy with a quality firearm. Don't play with DPMS, Bushmaster, Olympic, etc.

Now, I won't tell you that my rifle is the best in the world (I paid $1457.75 total for it, shipping and tools included). That would be lying. It lacks some ambidextrous features. It is not a full-billet upper and lower, which some may argue is degrading my accuracy. But the components are mil-spec, and come from manufacturers with good reputations. The gun had one double-feed, due to a magazine which wasn't fully seated. Operator error, the gun had no fault in it.

I trust my rifle, knowing it was assembled to mil-spec, above anything less (to include Bushmaster, DPMS, Oly, RRA, etc.). I'd stand my gun next to any Colt 6920, or BCM carbine, or PSA gun, and I maintain mine is equal in quality.

Do I sit on some pedestal, holding in disdain other weapons for personal reasons? No. A DPMS/Bushy/RRA/Oly gun doesn't meet my standards (mil-spec, QA, CS, QC). I prefer my rifle, personally, over most others because it is more ergonomic for a left-handed person. If DPMS, Oly, RRA, and Bushy all started meeting mil-spec standards, and provided the levels of QA, QC and CS I expect from the manufacturer of a weapon I bet my life on when I go to bed each night, I might own a DPMS/Oly/RRA/Bushy. They don't do those things. So I don't use them.

I don't see this as snobbery. And frankly, if I'm betting my life that the weapon is gonna work if some thug(s) come into my home, I have every right to maintain stringent standards.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 04:27 PM
Did you spend $1,500 because it's a better rifle? Or is it a "better" rifle because you spent $1,500 on it?

The two not the same.

Exactly. And I would argue that it is a better rifle if you did NOT spend $1,500 on it. :D

ns66
February 6, 2012, 04:45 PM
did you see those VERY expensive ads on superball from companies? guess what, their customers paid for the ads, nothing related to the products they bought, they paid for the ads and all name cost and all their CEO's bonus

so i don't buy the "you get what you paid for" sales pitch, the sales men sure want you to believe it lol

ugaarguy
February 6, 2012, 04:56 PM
CORE QUALITY... a forged piece of 7071-T6 is a forged piece of 7071-T6.
Ignoring finish machining and finishing are we? Anyone remember the purple anodized Bushmasters from the late 90s / early 2000s?

DPMS uses 4140 steel in their barrels. Higher end brands use Mil-B-11595E certified 4150 steel. 4140 is not the same as 4150. Chrome lining is an option on DPMS barrels, while chrome lining or black nitride are standard on other brands. DPMS uses conventional button rifling. Other brands use 5R rifling, or cold hammer forge their barrels. DPMS doesn't change their chamber reams out when they become worn - I've personally seen many of their barrels with tight to very tight chambers. DPMS does not even batch HPT/MPI their barrels. Higher end brands HPT/MPI each barrel.

DPMS does not HPT/MPI test their bolts. DPMS rarely stakes their carrier keys. I've yet to see a DPMS bolt with the correct extractor spring & insert on one of their carbines. Other companies at the same price point don't have such slack assembly.

DPMS uses the cheaper, and weaker commercial diameter receiver extension (aka buffer tube) on their carbines. DPMS does not stake their receiver extension castle nuts. Other brands at the same price use the stronger mil spec tubes, and properly stake the castle nut.

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 6, 2012, 05:07 PM
Ignoring finish machining and finishing are we? Anyone remember the purple anodized Bushmasters from the late 90s / early 2000s?

DPMS uses 4140 steel in their barrels. Higher end brands use Mil-B-11595E certified 4150 steel. 4140 is not the same as 4150. Chrome lining is an option on DPMS barrels, while chrome lining or black nitride are standard on other brands. DPMS uses conventional button rifling. Other brands use 5R rifling, or cold hammer forge their barrels. DPMS doesn't change their chamber reams out when they become worn - I've personally seen many of their barrels with tight to very tight chambers. DPMS does not even batch HPT/MPI their barrels. Higher end brands HPT/MPI each barrel.

DPMS does not HPT/MPI test their bolts. DPMS rarely stakes their carrier keys. I've yet to see a DPMS bolt with the correct extractor spring & insert on one of their carbines. Other companies at the same price point don't have such slack assembly.

DPMS uses the cheaper, and weaker commercial diameter receiver extension (aka buffer tube) on their carbines. DPMS does not stake their receiver extension castle nuts. Other brands at the same price use the stronger mil spec tubes, and properly stake the castle nut.

All of these things can be important.

A Honda Civic is not a Ferrari. A race car driver needs the extra performance of a Ferrari, but a soccer mom does not. Likewise, a soldier or SWAT officer may need the extra performance and durability from a high quality Mil-Spec rifle. But do you? Really, ask yourself it that's what you need. If you can afford it and just plain want it, great. But just be aware that if you're getting it because you just want the best,not because you plan on running the rifle at such a high pace as to make it necessary.

If your rifle needs would be met with the Honda Civic of rifles, than go for the $800 rifle and be happy with it. If your rifle needs are of a degree that you need the best, than save up for the best and be happy with that. Just be aware which is which, and why you would need or want one over the other.

tahunua001
February 6, 2012, 05:09 PM
I've shot a number of ARs over my life and even shot the colt standard M16A3 as active duty military. I own the DPMS sportical and love it to death. it's an economy gun manufacturer, if you want a 1000 yard rifle that shoots 1000 rounds a day 365, get something a little more pricey. my rifle is sub MOA and it's survived my trigger happy keester and every major holiday with my brothers for the last 3 years. I've shot numerous ARs from many more reputable makers that have been utterly atrocious.

Don't ever tell me that my DPMS is Freedom Group garbage.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 05:10 PM
Ignoring finish machining and finishing are we?

YES... finish quality is exactly what I was ignoring... that was exactly my point. CORE QUALITY... as in the metal itself. The only thing you mention above about CORE QUALITY is barrel steel. And I wasn't defending DPMS barrels in the first place. Everything else you mention is their bad finish quality practices. If you don't want to take the time and save the money to have to potentially troubleshoot and fix those things yourself, don't buy their products.

I don't own a DPMS, nor was I defending DPMS' business practices. I started out with a simple rant about understanding WHY something may or may not be "better". Not blindly believing what you hear a salesman say or hear in an internet forum.

ugaarguy
February 6, 2012, 05:13 PM
A Honda Civic is not a Ferrari. A race car driver needs the extra performance of a Ferrari, but a soccer mom does not.
Would you buy a Honda Civic if the lug nuts on the wheels were loose from the factory, and the valve cover on the engine wasn't bolted on tightly? You can fix those yourself, but should you have to? Would you buy a car that came from the factory with such poor assembly?

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 05:16 PM
And by the way, the rifle I was talking about that I built was a completely mil spec, 11595E and the works, M4gery rifle that I built for less than I could even find a DPMS at that time.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 05:17 PM
Would you buy a Honda Civic if the lug nuts on the wheels were loose from the factory, and the valve cover on the engine wasn't bolted on tightly? You can fix those yourself, but should you have to? Would you buy a car that came from the factory with such poor assembly?

because it would be VERY cheap, and after you took the 5 minutes to tighten a few screws, it would be of the same quality as the others.

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 6, 2012, 05:18 PM
Would you buy a Honda Civic if the lug nuts on the wheels were loose from the factory, and the valve cover on the engine wasn't bolted on tightly? You can fix those yourself, but should you have to? Would you buy a car that came from the factory with such poor assembly?

What you're describing would be a rifle that just plain doesn't work out of the box. Some people only go to a range, stand there and shoot a hundred rounds or so, and call it a day. And a DMPS or Bushmaster rifle will do that fine. Would I take it to a Magpul class and put 1,000+ rounds though it in a few days? Of course not. But those budget rifles still shoot. They're not going to fall apart while you hold them. They're not going to explode if you shoot them. So the analogy of a car that is literally falling apart doesn't really apply.

ugaarguy
February 6, 2012, 05:21 PM
YES... finish quality is exactly what I was ignoring... that was exactly my point. CORE QUALITY... as in the metal itself. The only thing you mention above about CORE QUALITY is barrel steel. And I wasn't defending DPMS barrels in the first place. Everything else you mention is their bad finish quality practices. If you don't want to take the time and save the money to have to potentially troubleshoot and fix those things yourself, don't buy their products.
You're set up to HPT/MPI metal parts yourself? You can magically change a barrel from button rifled to 5R or cold hammer forged yourself for no cost? You're set up to hard chrome line or black nitride at your house? You can magically change a commercial spec receiver extension & stock into mil spec units for little to no cost?

Yes, you can stake carrier keys & castle nuts yourself for free with a vice, center punch, and hammer that many folks own. You can replace springs at very little cost. The rest are going to take significant time & money to change out. The core quality IS NOT the same. There ARE other rifles (S&W, PSA, Spikes) for the same or slightly more money than DPMS with better CORE quality.

ugaarguy
February 6, 2012, 05:24 PM
So the analogy of a car that is literally falling apart doesn't really apply.
So the DPMS rifles I've seen with my own eyes with tight chambers that wouldn't get thru a single mag aren't analogous? The DPMS (and other) rifles that had loose, unstaked carrier keys and choked after a few hundred rounds aren't analogous?

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 6, 2012, 05:29 PM
So the DPMS rifles I've seen with my own eyes with tight chambers that wouldn't get thru a single mag aren't analogous? The DPMS (and other) rifles that had loose, unstaked carrier keys and choked after a few hundred rounds aren't analogous?

I'd say those are flukes, even for a lower quality rifle. I own a Bushmaster M4gery, and Colt M4gery, and a DPMS LR-308. All shoot well and I have never had any problems. The DPMS was actually part of a deal they offered my MP Company while we were deployed. About 30 of us ended up buying DPMS rifles, (I got a .308 since I already had two 5.56 rifles). From the guys I've gone shooting with since we got back, they all work fine. You've seen rifles that don't work from DPMS, and I've seen a lot that do. If you don't need the best rifle made, DPMS will do fine.

ns66
February 6, 2012, 05:41 PM
i mean quality difference from different companies are really just pulled from thin air on internet, does anyone have any documented hard facts that DPMS or bushmaster or whatever freedom group made guns fail more? show me some evidence, show me comparison test results with "feel good" guns of colt/bcm/dd/whatever under blind controlled conditions, not just someone's opinion passed around as facts, if you don't have the real data, it's just your guess or myth passed around, nothing more.

actually the only thing i read for facts is colt rifles broke down in battle field in iraq, and soliders suffered because of it, sadly

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 6, 2012, 05:44 PM
i mean quality difference from different companies are really just pulled from thin air on internet, does anyone have any documented hard facts that DPMS or bushmaster or whatever freedom group made guns fail? show me some evidence, show me comparison test results with "feel good" guns of colt/bcm/dd/whatever under blind controlled conditions, not just someone's opinion passed around as facts, if you don't have the real data, it's just your guess or myth passed around, nothing more.

ugaarguy did provide some real data.

DPMS uses 4140 steel in their barrels. Higher end brands use Mil-B-11595E certified 4150 steel. 4140 is not the same as 4150. Chrome lining is an option on DPMS barrels, while chrome lining or black nitride are standard on other brands. DPMS uses conventional button rifling. Other brands use 5R rifling, or cold hammer forge their barrels. DPMS doesn't change their chamber reams out when they become worn - I've personally seen many of their barrels with tight to very tight chambers. DPMS does not even batch HPT/MPI their barrels. Higher end brands HPT/MPI each barrel.

DPMS does not HPT/MPI test their bolts. DPMS rarely stakes their carrier keys. I've yet to see a DPMS bolt with the correct extractor spring & insert on one of their carbines. Other companies at the same price point don't have such slack assembly.

DPMS uses the cheaper, and weaker commercial diameter receiver extension (aka buffer tube) on their carbines. DPMS does not stake their receiver extension castle nuts. Other brands at the same price use the stronger mil spec tubes, and properly stake the castle nut.

These are real manufacturing processes and materials that are available for research. Learn more about each rifle, how it's made and what it's made of, and you will see real differences. That DPMS uses different steel than Colt is a fact. That Bushmaster uses civilian buffer tubes is a fact. Those are not opinions.

Robert101
February 6, 2012, 05:45 PM
My DPMS TAC 20 has been flawless in its entire 650 rounds fired. Fit and finish is great. My groups ! 100 yards from a bi-pod measure 1 1/2 to 2". By the way this is my first ever rifle and my shooting is progressing with increasingly smaller groups every time I visit the desert to shoot. Only as of recently did I install a TM lower for California compliance. DPMS has been good to me.

Captains1911
February 6, 2012, 06:11 PM
i mean quality difference from different companies are really just pulled from thin air on internet, does anyone have any documented hard facts that DPMS or bushmaster or whatever freedom group made guns fail more? show me some evidence, show me comparison test results with "feel good" guns of colt/bcm/dd/whatever under blind controlled conditions, not just someone's opinion passed around as facts, if you don't have the real data, it's just your guess or myth passed around, nothing more.

actually the only thing i read for facts is colt rifles broke down in battle field in iraq, and soliders suffered because of it, sadly
*


The proof is documented and reported by those that see 1000s and 1000s of rounds downrange each year thru rifles from various manufacturers. When the guns are run hard the differences start to show.
It is also noted by dealers who see warranty returns on particular makes more than on others.

Regarding the Colts in Iraq, you should educate yourself on that situation a little better before injecting into non-relevant threads like this. Any rifle from any manufacturer would have failed under those circumstances, and many probably would have failed much sooner.

ns66
February 6, 2012, 06:23 PM
The proof is documented and reported by those that see 1000s and 1000s of rounds downrange each year thru rifles from various manufacturers. When the guns are run hard the differences start to show.
It is also noted by dealers who see warranty returns on particular makes more than on others.

Regarding the Colts in Iraq, you should educate yourself on that situation a little better before injecting into non-relevant threads like this. Any rifle from any manufacturer would have failed under those circumstances, and many probably would have failed much sooner.
yes i agree all rifles can fail, that includes DPMS or Colt
but your statement of DPMS fails sooner than Colt, do you have anything to back it up or just your guess?

that's why test of different brands under blind, controlled conditions are so important, and hopefully with some sample size, i would love to see just 1 such report, otherwise, i just don't buy colt/bcm/dd are better than DMPS and the like

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 06:39 PM
You're set up to HPT/MPI metal parts yourself? You can magically change a barrel from button rifled to 5R or cold hammer forged yourself for no cost? You're set up to hard chrome line or black nitride at your house?

Using your own "Honda Civic" analogy, we were talking about tightening a few screws, not personally manufacturing a new engine for the car. With everything else the same, as in same alloys used, same specs followed, and everything else, I would much rather spend half as much money and have to "tighten a few screws" than buy an expensive one of the same quality. This was my only point.

This is the high road. I was not attacking you. I was probably misunderstood. I'm used to it.

Not arguing with you about DPMS' QC practices. I don't think anyone is surprised that an off the shelf $500 AR can have some issues. But at the same time, as Ragnar says, if someone can work around the small issues and does not need other "mil spec" stuff, then who cares? They put a bullet down range safely (hopefully) ;)

MachIVshooter
February 6, 2012, 07:15 PM
The "few loose screws" analogy is more appropriate for guns that sometimes need very minor, no cost end-user alterations to perform 100%, like the Kel-Tec "fluff'n'buff", or the minor mods I've had to do on my Witness 10mm extractors to make them run 100% with my full power loads. These things I don't mind, especially at the price point of these guns (incidentally, none of the 6 KT's I've owned needed a fluff'n'buff).

But poorly manufactured guns that require extensive reworking and parts replacement right out of the box, or that just plain don't hold up, are a whole different animal.

My DPMS TAC 20 has been flawless in its entire 650 rounds fired

650 rounds is a lot if you're talking about a hunting rifle in .300 Win mag, but that's one day (or less) with an AR - not exactly a testament to durability.

dastardly-D
February 6, 2012, 07:18 PM
Is today's Mil-spec the same standard as 1970/1980/1990/2000 ,or has there been changes or advances made ? If so,mil-spec 1970 might not be as good as 1990 factory spec...Mil-spec may not matter as much as one might think ?

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 07:24 PM
Are the completely inoperable paperweight DPMS' that common? I've never cared to research them that much, but that's hard to believe.

Captains1911
February 6, 2012, 07:25 PM
Using your own "Honda Civic" analogy, we were talking about tightening a few screws, not personally manufacturing a new engine for the car. With everything else the same, as in same alloys used, same specs followed, and everything else, I would much rather spend half as much money and have to "tighten a few screws" than buy an expensive one of the same quality. This was my only point.

But they don't all use the same alloys, same specs, and everything else. Far from it.

pinstripe
February 6, 2012, 07:28 PM
Enough of this pissing contest! Get what you want or can afford. Just get over this egotistical machismo crap. I have a colt ar15 sportsman and a bushmaster xm15 and they are both what I wanted. I refuse to pay an excessive amount of money for a tool. And boys if you think they are not tools, then maybe you need to start collecting something else. Old fishing lures will fit in that gunsafe and are a hell of alot cheaper. geez Louise, like a bunch of kids bragging about which bicycle is better a schwinn or a huffy.:neener:

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 07:29 PM
But they don't all use the same alloys, same specs, and everything else. Far from it.

Which is why I was stressing CORE QUALITY and "of same quality" and etc.

Anyway, yeah, I don't know if I made that clear. This got out of hand haha

snakeman
February 6, 2012, 07:55 PM
Way to go pinstripe! That's exactly what I was thinking.

pinstripe
February 6, 2012, 08:28 PM
Pinstripe takes a bow. Your welcome snakeman.:D

pinstripe
February 6, 2012, 08:30 PM
PINSTRIPE TAKES A BOW! You're welcome snakeman.:D

ugaarguy
February 6, 2012, 08:47 PM
I'd like to offer some more perspective if I may.

I own a "high end" AR, a DDM4V1. I also own a "low end" S&W M&P-15 Sport. The Sport does not have an HPT/MPI barrel. The barrel steel is 4140. However, it has 5R rifling and is black nitrided (Melonited) for durability. They also use the correct F height front sight base for the flat top upper receiver. S&W's bolts are individually HPT/MPI tested, and their carrier keys are properly staked. They use the correct 5 coil heavy duty extractor spring with black insert, and Crane o-ring spring surround. S&W uses mil spec receiver extensions, and properly stakes the castle nut. They also cut some corners on the Sport: there is no forward assist, no dust cover, and the and the included handguards lack the aluminum heat shield.

I still bought the Sport because I felt that S&W cut costs in less critical areas, and kept higher cost parts in the most critical areas. The Sport is also in the same sub $650 price range as the base model DPMS rifles. There are quantifiable differences in both materials & build quality of S&W's and DPMS' base model rifles. There are also quantifiable differences in the materials on my M&P Sport and my DDM4V1.

You don't have to buy a super high end rifle to get quality. I would just get familiar with the features & build processes on AR type rifles, and decide what features you need or want.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 09:30 PM
The DDM4 is actually what I was comparing to at the "car salesman" gun store I was talking about earlier.

Are the S&W barrels actually 5R? That's an Obermeyer rifling contour. I am confused by the Daniel Defense site. Only the "button swaged" (button rifled) ones have 4150 stamped on them. Are they all actually 11595B certified, or just "tested"?

ns66
February 6, 2012, 09:57 PM
in computer world everything is clear and be quantified, we know pentium 4 is faster than 3, 2TB disk hold twice as much data as 1TB disk, so you pay for difference you can see

here in ar-15 world, no difference can be measured or even felt by users, is BCM better than DPMS? who knows, only thing you can see is total strangers' comment on internet and who knows which company they work for? even if there's real difference, users probably will never see or feel the difference so it's moot. so if particular brand makes you feel good, go for it :D

shootniron
February 6, 2012, 10:31 PM
Just reading through this thread and thought that I would actually follow-up on some of the info that ugaarugy posted about the Dpms rifles as I really do not know that much about their parts specifically. I have a family member that bought a new DPMS rifle in Dec so I thought that would be a good one to have a look at as it is current vintage and very close by. So, with a meet-up, we stripped that baby down and had a look-see and posted below are the results in response to ugaarguys posts.

I do not have a dog in this fight as I do not personally own a DPMS of any configuration, however for the $535.00 bucks out the door (showed me the reciept) that this man paid, I think he got a nice regular use AR for the money.JMO

DPMS Panther lite 16 A3

Chrome lining is an option on DPMS barrels

Chamber and bore were chrome lined and it was not special ordered.


DPMS does not even batch HPT/MPI their barrels.
According to what I could find on the net, DPMS now batch tests barrels and bolts...I do not know for sure.

DPMS doesn't change their chamber reams out when they become worn - I've personally seen many of their barrels with tight to very tight chambers.

Not doubting this statement, but I have been present with folks shooting them and have never seen evidence that this has caused a bobble of any type with any of them.


DPMS rarely stakes their carrier keys

All keys were properly staked on this rifle.


I've yet to see a DPMS bolt with the correct extractor spring & insert on one of their carbines.

This example has correct spring and insert.


DPMS uses the cheaper, and weaker commercial diameter receiver extension (aka buffer tube) on their carbines.

This rifle has the commericial buffer tube and this is not at all uncommon as all stock makers have stocks to fit both and there is virtually no consequence or having the commercial tube as compared to the mil-spec. In my 25yrs of experience with both types of tubes, I have never had a problem with either...it is a moot point for 99.9% of users.


DPMS does not stake their receiver extension castle nuts

This statement is correct. DPMS uses a thread compound to hold nut rather than staking. I will add that they are not alone in this practice based on others that I have seen, although staking is more prevalent.


Other brands at the same price use the stronger mil spec tubes, and properly stake the castle nut.

Not hardly.

ugaarguy
February 6, 2012, 10:39 PM
Are the S&W barrels actually 5R?
The Sport, 2nd version T (SKU 811041), new VTAC II, and new MOE MAGPUL SPEC SERIES all have S&W's 5.56 NATO chambered, Melonited, 1:8 5R barrel. The new 300 Whisper model (which is .300 AAC Blackout compatible) uses a 1:7.5 twist 5R bbl.
in computer world everything is clear and be quantified, we know pentium 4 is faster than 3, 2TB disk hold twice as much data as 1TB disk, so you pay for difference you can see

here in ar-15 world, no difference can be measured or even felt by users, is BCM better than DPMS? who knows, only thing you can see is total strangers' comment on internet and who knows which company they work for? even if there's real difference, users probably will never see or feel the difference so it's moot. so if particular brand makes you feel good, go for it
And a guy who uses his computer for surfing the web & checking email won't ever notice the difference between an Intel Core i series first gen processor and a second gen Sandy Bridge Core i series processor either. So your point is also moot. If the latest & greatest processor, motherboard, hard drive, and graphics card make you feel good go for it. :evil:

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 10:40 PM
Are the S&W barrels actually 5R? That's an Obermeyer rifling contour. I am confused by the Daniel Defense site. Only the "button swaged" (button rifled) ones have 4150 stamped on them. Are they all actually 11595B certified, or just "tested"?

just so this doesn't get lost in the other posts

EDIT: posted at the same time. So, are they actually 5R? Or do you mean they are cut rifled. Cut rifled doesn't necessarily mean 5R. Anything about my other questions? I'm thinking about emailing DD

EDIT#2: Wow, I see that they actually do say 5R. I will have to ask Boots if he is getting paid for that. Although, I don't think he ever really "owned" it. Doesn't say if they are cut rifled.

ugaarguy
February 6, 2012, 11:00 PM
DPMS Panther lite 16 A3... Chamber and bore were chrome lined and it was not special ordered.
Chrome Moly isn't the same as Chrome lining. Here's DPMS own specs:
http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=1066&cat=1891
Quote:
Other brands at the same price use the stronger mil spec tubes, and properly stake the castle nut.
Not hardly.
I paid under $600 OTD for my M&P-15 Sport. When PSA gets their complete M4A1 carbines back in they should be right at $600 as they originally were.
I am confused by the Daniel Defense site. Only the "button swaged" (button rifled) ones have 4150 stamped on them. Are they all actually 11595B certified, or just "tested"?
Not directly stated on their website, but yes, DD has confirmed in e-mail & phone call inquiries from several folks that they do use Mil-B-11595E certified steel in their chrome lined bbls.

EDIT: Wow, we're both posting like crazy. I don't think Obermeyer ever owned 5R rifling, but rather made it popular. If you have direct contact with him that would be great to know. S&W's 5R capability is from T/C Arms, who S&W purchased several years ago largely because of T/C's rifle barrel production capability. This was right around the time that S&W killed the early M&P rifles with outsourced parts, and brought everything in house. Even the conventionally rifled 1:9 chrome lined barrels S&W uses are made by T/C. S&W - T/C made a big deal about letting everyone know that all T/C Icon & Venture bolt rifles are 5R.

dscottdennison
February 6, 2012, 11:10 PM
I guess I will still email DD as well. That seems shady.

I thought Boots trademarked 5R, but now I am thinking that "Obermeyer 5R" is trademarked. Who knows... I have one of them, and it is amazing.

ns66
February 7, 2012, 12:04 AM
And a guy who uses his computer for surfing the web & checking email won't ever notice the difference between an Intel Core i series first gen processor and a second gen Sandy Bridge Core i series processor either. So your point is also moot. If the latest & greatest processor, motherboard, hard drive, and graphics card make you feel good go for it. :evil:
with computer sure you can feel the difference even just surfing web since these days web pages are heavy if you don't know. and if you ever do word or image processing or play games the difference is even bigger, unlike ar-15, no matter what brand you use, you can feel NOTHING different in practice, only the little stamp LOOKS different lol

ugaarguy
February 7, 2012, 12:49 AM
unlike ar-15, no matter what brand you use, you can feel NOTHING different in practice, only the little stamp LOOKS different lol
Maybe you can't feel a difference, but I sure can. Just like you can tell a difference in computers when you run them hard, I can tell a difference in ARs when I run them hard. I've already spelled out several of the quantifiable differences, and YOU'RE the one who refuses to acknowledge them.

Captains1911
February 7, 2012, 08:34 AM
here in ar-15 world, no difference can be measured or even felt by users, is BCM better than DPMS? who knows

This is complete non-sense. Real differences have already been spelled out for you right here in this thread.

Course instructors who see more rounds than probably anybody see certain brands go down more often than others.

I'm not saying everybody needs the higher quality rifle, far from it, but to not acknowledge the fact that there are differences is complete ignorance.

JustinJ
February 7, 2012, 09:11 AM
My Colt handles different than my bushy. One big difference is the bushy is overgassed and practically poisons me when shot with a can. The Colt much less so.

ns66
February 7, 2012, 10:55 AM
i am just curious, say if we do blind test, have colt/dd/bcm/bush/dpms/psa... all in exactly the same configuration, and no one can tell them apart from the looks (all painted same color and precious roll marks all covered), and 1000 rounds, can you tell which is which by handling and shooting?

well i can't, but if you can and think a particular one gives you an edge, by all means get it and more power to you

but i can tell which is bmw which is ford by driving them for 30 secs, easily

shootniron
February 7, 2012, 12:12 PM
but i can tell which is bmw which is ford by driving them for 30 secs, easily

I didn't know BMW made a truck...

ns66
February 7, 2012, 12:27 PM
I didn't know BMW made a truck...
they don't? damn :D

MachIVshooter
February 7, 2012, 12:46 PM
but i can tell which is bmw which is ford by driving them for 30 secs, easily

I can tell you which is which by the total on the bill I hand to my customers for the same repair, too........

Ford vs. BMW is probably not the analogy you want here. You're comparing expensive refinement (BMW) to affordable durability (Ford). And I'm not a Ford guy........

ns66
February 7, 2012, 02:48 PM
well ar-15 you can pay from $600 to $2000+, while bmw sedan cost maybe 2-3x as much as ford, so i would say it's pretty good comparison

jrdolall
February 8, 2012, 05:12 PM
From those of us who actually just enjoy owning and shooting a firearm just let me say that we all understand that there are more expensive options available. A Mossberg .270 from wallyworld costs $300 and a "quality" one cost $1500 at a real gun shop. If you put a $59 scope on the $300 rifle, assuming it wasn't a combo, and the other guy puts a $1200 Zeiss in his $1500 rifle then he probably has a better setup than the guy with the $300 gun. If they both sit in a deer stand and shoot a deer at 75 yards, after sighting them in, then it is real darned likely that there will be two dead deer lying around. Now if they both go to Colorado, wade across rivers with the guns, drop them from horseback, lay in the snow for 8 hours, and shoot at an elk at 450 yards it is possible that the high dollar gun will outperform the cheap one. Then again maybe not.

shootniron
February 8, 2012, 05:41 PM
jrdolall

Posts: 40 From those of us who actually just enjoy owning and shooting a firearm just let me say that we all understand that there are more expensive options available. A Mossberg .270 from wallyworld costs $300 and a "quality" one cost $1500 at a real gun shop. If you put a $59 scope on the $300 rifle, assuming it wasn't a combo, and the other guy puts a $1200 Zeiss in his $1500 rifle then he probably has a better setup than the guy with the $300 gun. If they both sit in a deer stand and shoot a deer at 75 yards, after sighting them in, then it is real darned likely that there will be two dead deer lying around. Now if they both go to Colorado, wade across rivers with the guns, drop them from horseback, lay in the snow for 8 hours, and shoot at an elk at 450 yards it is possible that the high dollar gun will outperform the cheap one. Then again maybe not.

Now jrdolall, there you go and start getting logic tangled up in this thing...:mad:

Captains1911
February 8, 2012, 06:12 PM
From those of us who actually just enjoy owning and shooting a firearm just let me say that we all understand that there are more expensive options available. A Mossberg .270 from wallyworld costs $300 and a "quality" one cost $1500 at a real gun shop. If you put a $59 scope on the $300 rifle, assuming it wasn't a combo, and the other guy puts a $1200 Zeiss in his $1500 rifle then he probably has a better setup than the guy with the $300 gun. If they both sit in a deer stand and shoot a deer at 75 yards, after sighting them in, then it is real darned likely that there will be two dead deer lying around. Now if they both go to Colorado, wade across rivers with the guns, drop them from horseback, lay in the snow for 8 hours, and shoot at an elk at 450 yards it is possible that the high dollar gun will outperform the cheap one. Then again maybe not.
*


What does this have anything to with the fact that for the SAME price as a DPMS, a BETTER rifle can be had? What's so hard to understand about that?

ns66
February 9, 2012, 10:58 AM
What does this have anything to with the fact that for the SAME price as a DPMS, a BETTER rifle can be had? What's so hard to understand about that?
my point has been, an opinion passed around 1000 times doesn't make it a fact
i don't see any proof that colt is better than dpms, only people THINK by whatever reason that's the case
i bet there are some failed dpms, a lot more failed colt, but there are a lot more colt than dpms, so which one has higher rate of failure? no one knows
the only fact about these that we know is colt is being used by military, but being used by military doesn't equate to better quality, that's just fact

as about bcm/dd/... that are *thought* to be better by internet commandos, there are even less data or fact to consider, only thing being passed around are just someone's opinions, maybe they have better websites or more money on the marketing (paid by their buyers), but that doesn't make their rifles better

Captains1911
February 9, 2012, 01:54 PM
my point has been, an opinion passed around 1000 times doesn't make it a fact
i don't see any proof that colt is better than dpms, only people THINK by whatever reason that's the case
i bet there are some failed dpms, a lot more failed colt, but there are a lot more colt than dpms, so which one has higher rate of failure? no one knows
the only fact about these that we know is colt is being used by military, but being used by military doesn't equate to better quality, that's just fact

as about bcm/dd/... that are *thought* to be better by internet commandos, there are even less data or fact to consider, only thing being passed around are just someone's opinions, maybe they have better websites or more money on the marketing (paid by their buyers), but that doesn't make their rifles better

This is pointless. All I can say is next time do some research before preaching so strongly on something you obviously know very little about.

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 9, 2012, 02:16 PM
ns66, do you know anything about metallurgy?

If I told you a piece of steel is stronger than a piece of zinc of the same dimensions, would you believe me? Even though I'm just telling you, so it's just my "opinion"?

Certain facts about metals are known to be true. It's called chemistry and physics. The way different steels are rated is a factual representation of their different strengths. A rifle made with one kind of steel IS stronger than one of a weaker kind of steel. That's not an opinion. It isn't "true because internet commandos said 1000 times it is". It's true because science has shown it to be true.

Rifles are made from materials using processes. Certain materials have more strength. Certain manufacturing processes make a material more durable or stronger. That's science, not opinion. When rifle A is made of a weaker steel than rifle B, and rifle A is not treated the same ways in manufacturing than rifle B, rifle B will end up being a more reliable and stronger product. Again, that's science, not opinion.

What about that are you not getting?

ns66
February 9, 2012, 04:21 PM
yeah no one has given any proof or any blind test results, just keep repeating blah blah, if you want to believe in something and feel better, that's fine, i am not convinced until i see evidence

i am not the one who tells people A is better than B, force down people's throat, how do you know A is better than B? you tested it? you saw people tested it and saw the data? or you just read on the net some joe said so? maybe joe knows nothing he just read on the net like you did, or maybe joe works for company A, who knows

@Ragnar Danneskjold, if you are talking about barrel steel, actually most of the "makers" buy barrels from same source like FNH, they are just assemblers, not actually manufacturers, only handful of companies can make production barrels, among them FNH, remington-dpms-bushmaster (merged to be freedom grp) can

benEzra
February 9, 2012, 05:10 PM
Barrel steel, bolt steel, receiver extension strength, etc. are indeed different between different manufacturers. So are attention to the assembly details that make for a reliable rifle long-term (gas key screw torque and staking, castle nut staking rather than loctite, etc.).

FWIW, my AR is mid-tier (Rock River), not top-grade, so I'm not bashing lower-end guns at all. But I did have to have my gas key redone and staked my castle nut myself, because RRA didn't bother, and (knowing what I know now) I believe I could have gotten a BCM for very close to what I paid for the RRA.

INMY01TA
February 9, 2012, 10:18 PM
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a DPMS rifle if the price was right.

Pat M
February 9, 2012, 11:40 PM
I can't believe I just read all five pages of this thread. Conclusion: some $700 ARs are better than others. There is an infinite amount of information on the web confirming this. Do some research and pick out the best rifle for your budget. If you fire 100 round each range session you probably will not notice a difference, but why settle for less?

dastardly-D
February 10, 2012, 10:08 PM
:scrutiny: Why settle for less ? .........All I ever said was that I wanted something to play with.Now that has been stretched out around the block a couple of times by brand braggers and armchair commandoes.I'm not saying everybody,but a lot of you guys go off the deep end about things.Thank you to you guys who helped me with some opinion.

INMY01TA
February 10, 2012, 10:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajfiE3iq78k&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Good advice here^^.

proven
February 10, 2012, 10:52 PM
it's amazing that people simply choose to ignore that parts are not just parts. sure fnh can make barrels for any company. they can also do it from different steel and to different specs.

ns66, talk to just about any reputable carbine class instructor about which rifles fail more often than others. you can tout "show me proof" all you want, but ignoring known variables is purely foolish.

ns66
February 10, 2012, 11:58 PM
@proven, so which instructor told you which rifles fail more? that could be one data point to think about, when you get big sample data points, people can make better decisions. i am all for tests and real world statistics, instead of people making up things or pass around baseless opinions or internet chat as facts

ugaarguy
February 11, 2012, 02:32 AM
ns66, by your own admission you're new to firearms. You just got your first AR two weeks ago - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=634108. Now you're on here acting like an experienced AR user. Further, if anyone's experience differs from your opinion, you discredit such experience by calling it unfounded opinion.

Since the experienced opinions here aren't good enough for you, here's a link you may find interesting - http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html.

proven
February 11, 2012, 09:00 AM
@ns66, as is stated in the article that ugaarguy posted, pat rogers always comes to mind. i've never actually seen this article but have heard him talk about which rifles fail more than others in the classes he runs. but then you probably have no idea who he is, so you'll just discount his experience and knowledge anyway.

you should really do more research before spouting off about things that you seem to know little about.

ns66
February 11, 2012, 10:40 AM
ns66, by your own admission you're new to firearms. You just got your first AR two weeks ago - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=634108. Now you're on here acting like an experienced AR user. Further, if anyone's experience differs from your opinion, you discredit such experience by calling it unfounded opinion.

Since the experienced opinions here aren't good enough for you, here's a link you may find interesting - http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html.
lol, all i ask for is evidence, i never said which rifle is better unlike some people behave as if he has tried 10 brands and broke at least 2, even if you have used ar-15 for 10 years most likely your experience is on one or two of ar-15 and never shot enough to break any and have enough sample to draw any meaningful conclusion.

stay on the message, who i am is totally irrelevant (i am new to rifles doesn't mean i am stupid, i happened to have research background), if you have anything to back up your claim of some brand is inferior and fails often just link us, instead of going for personal attacks which accomplish nothing

the magazine article, even though looks like a BCM promo piece not any kind of scientific blind test, is one data point, if you want to draw any conclusion that's up to you

ns66
February 11, 2012, 10:51 AM
@ns66, as is stated in the article that ugaarguy posted, pat rogers always comes to mind. i've never actually seen this article but have heard him talk about which rifles fail more than others in the classes he runs. but then you probably have no idea who he is, so you'll just discount his experience and knowledge anyway.

you should really do more research before spouting off about things that you seem to know little about.
to me rf-15 is not rocket science, any average joe can understand most of it in a week or two :D, as about brand loyalty and its economics is just common sense, only scientific data convinces me, nothing else will

again, stay on the message, if you claim brand A is better or brand B fails for civilian use, spell out whether it's your opinion? your personal experience? read on the net from joe? read a magazine article? heard from your instructor? if you don't bother then people have right to assume your claim is just your personal opinion

Pindarslight
February 11, 2012, 10:53 AM
I personally think that rifles, cars, bikes or any product are pretty much the same. Personal preference. I like certain calibers but it doesn't mean I shouldn't try others.

I bought a remlin 336 after reading rave reviews and how awesome it is and blah blah. I got to the range and I wanted to bend the barrel to me the weapon sucked, to others it might the best thing since the invention of the 1911.

Read the opinions work within your budget and find out for yourself.

proven
February 11, 2012, 12:52 PM
ns66- you asked for an instructor and i gave you one. how is that not staying "on message" you shrug off that article like it means nothing. to an inexperienced guy like yourself, it might mean just that...nothing. oh, but that's right you've done research, and your not dumb.:rolleyes: to guys that have been in this industry a while, a showing like that says something. you can sit back and whine about "show me evidence, i have a background in research" all you want. well, guess what, these guys have a background is using rifles more than you ever will and they state what they know to be true from first hand experience. that's more than you've done. try to do even half of what what was done with the bravo co rifle in the article and see how you fare.

all in all it seems that you're a bit sour to the fact that your bushy gets picked on by guys who know what they're talking about. you think you've got it all figured out. so be it. have fun with your rifle.

ns66
February 11, 2012, 01:25 PM
@proven, you make me laugh, you can only stay on personal attacks but got nothing else, i can buy any ar-15 i wanted but i specifically chose bushmaster carbon because it's lighweight and fit MY needs, not stupidly following personal opinions from someone who THINKS he knows everything but has no clue about statistics and scientific methodology. maybe you don't understand if i buy those *opinions* on the web i would have bought something else, but i didn't see any evidence that's convincing so i bought the bushmaster, i put my money where my mouth is. and looked at your useless posts i am done talking to people like you, other readers can draw whatever conclusion they want, whatever they buy is none of my business anyway, but i stick with my view, show me proof or do scientific blind tests or it's just your opinion, nothing else, and its value is, whatever :D

proven
February 11, 2012, 01:44 PM
haha. cheers, pal. i don't see a personal attack in any of my posts. again, you can talk about scientific methodology all you want, but abandoning the first hand experience of top names in the industry is rather juvenile and arrogant. as i said have fun with your rifle, it fits your needs, that's fantastic. but when someone says that there's something better out there, try not and take it too personally and start mumbling about scientific methodology and your background in research. no one cares.

ns66
February 11, 2012, 02:29 PM
@proven, you just don't get it do you, "when someone says that there's something better out there" means nothing without anything to back it up

the magazine article linked says BCM rifle shot 31000 rounds without problem, that's fine, but that doesn't prove BCM is better than CPMS or bushmaster since they may shoot 40000 rounds. if in another article CPMS shot 20000 rounds and failed but that doesn't prove CPMS is worse than BCM, why? because the conditions of their tests are different, see the point? scientific methodology is not just fancy words, it's how you do meaningful research and draw meaningful conclusions, there's no other way, that's what modern science and technology based upon. if you want to believe in something without proof that's called religion not science, if that makes you feel good fine with me :D

proven
February 11, 2012, 02:50 PM
your reading comprehension isn't too good is it. instructors aren't saying this without anything to back it up. they're saying it from first hand experience with rifles from just about every mfr. there's an article that shows what a bcm rifle can do. you're asserting that a dpms can do the same, so find me proof, mr science man. :rolleyes:

ns66
February 11, 2012, 03:02 PM
@proven, did i assert dpms can do the same or is better or worse than any other brand? i think it's your reading comprehension that isn't too good :D

proven
February 11, 2012, 03:14 PM
by calling people that claim a bcm is better than a dpms brand fanboys, and that their claims are baseless, yes, you're basically saying that bcm is no better, and that a dpms can't hold it's own under the same circumstances. you have very little experience with the ar, and guns in general from your previous posts, and there are plenty of people in the field who see the differences in quality all the time.

you stated in an earlier post in another thread regarding glocks, that the "experts" say that you should by a handgun that points naturally......why believe them? have you seen any conclusive evidence or hard scientific data that proves this to be true? no. you simply took what other more experienced people than yourself know to be true from first hand accounts and used it to make a recommendation. this is no different. with the exception that you get your panties in a bunch when someone recommends a rifle contrary to your own purchase.

go shoot your rifle.

Pindarslight
February 11, 2012, 06:26 PM
Like I said it's a matter of opinion and personal preference...really don't get the big deal and he said this he said that. As long as the rifle performs to you liking and fits your needs why should it matter if chuck hawks or whoever said this rifle is better.

Try it yourself it should only matter to the user not the onlookers.:banghead:

ns66
February 11, 2012, 07:10 PM
@proven, it's a waste of time talking to you, enjoy your little corner comfort zone that you can understand and feel good about your belief whatever it's
yes i am enjoying my rifle and any scientific research/test that's meaningful, we are at different level let's enjoy our stuff our own way :D

ns66
February 11, 2012, 07:41 PM
Like I said it's a matter of opinion and personal preference...really don't get the big deal and he said this he said that. As long as the rifle performs to you liking and fits your needs why should it matter if chuck hawks or whoever said this rifle is better.

Try it yourself it should only matter to the user not the onlookers.:banghead:
i agree

but i can also understand some people want to push their brand to feel better, or have vested interest in it, internet ad is free :D

proven
February 12, 2012, 12:27 AM
ns66- excellent retort:rolleyes: you're right about one thing...guys like you with no experience choosing to promote professional opinions in one thread and then calling them bunk, anecdotal evidence and crying scientific foul in another are exactly that...a waste of time.

Pindarslight
February 12, 2012, 10:54 AM
@proven give it up man it's a no win for anyone

kenken
February 12, 2012, 11:24 AM
You need to exchange phone numbers.

kenken

ClickClickD'oh
February 13, 2012, 01:52 PM
I bought a remlin 336 after reading rave reviews and how awesome it is and blah blah

Well, if it was a remlin 336 and not an older production Marlin 336, there's your problem right there.



...and now back to the matter.

I must be living in the twilight zone.. or DPMS has drastically changed. My rifle was born with an A2 stock and no flash hider sometime during the AWB, so I really don't care if the castle nut was staked or not (there wasn't one). Most guys who tool around with their ARs long enough end up changing stocks, so this seems like a really petty thing to get on about. My carrier gas key came staked from the factory, although I do give it a very odd glance when these types of threads come up. I'm sure it's trying to fool me.

Like I said upthread, it's been a long time work gun, done plenty of training and classes as well as taken a few trips around the ranch on the mule. It's never had a significant failure with thousands of rounds over the years. Never thousands of rounds in the same day though. Honestly, I don't care if that will make it fail since it's never going to happen short of the purchase of a tactical wheelbarrow and a grant from Magpul. (although, I am open to any unsolicited donations of ammunition if someone really wants to know what will make my DPMS rifle fail)

..Guess I got the good one that came out of the factory and everyone else has Friday and Monday guns.


And no, it still doesn't have a flash hider :neener:

Pindarslight
February 13, 2012, 04:11 PM
@ click...yeah I got screwed as soon as I looked up the serial I was pissed but I tried it anyways..doh!

ClickClickD'oh
February 13, 2012, 04:44 PM
@ click...yeah I got screwed as soon as I looked up the serial I was pissed but I tried it anyways..doh!

As a long time Marlin owner who brags up his rifles every chance he gets, I honestly feel sorry for anyone who gets bit by the Remlin monster.

Art Eatman
February 13, 2012, 09:23 PM
'Nuff wanderin'...

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