What are these creases in the case?


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16in50calNavalRifle
February 7, 2012, 03:16 AM
Hope this photo shows what I'm asking about.

Four CBC (Companhia de Cartuchos Brasileiros, once-fired nickel-plated .357Mag brass from Magtech 158g ammo) cases that I just reloaded with 125g TCJ flat-points.

Note the small creases around the waist of the cases. It does not extend all the way around on any of them - the length varies from 180 degrees to about 240 degrees of the circumference.

This is the first I've seen of this. I've done about 250 rounds of this loading.

So should I pull these bullets, salvage the primers and powder, and trash the cases, or not worry about it?

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joneb
February 7, 2012, 03:34 AM
That looks like way to much crimp.

Are you sure those are 125gr and not 180gr bullets ?

16in50calNavalRifle
February 7, 2012, 03:45 AM
Well I am playing with different degrees of crimp, but content to do so (these and others with different crimp have functioned just fine). They are 125g, no question. Only question for now is those creases in the mid-section.

gamestalker
February 7, 2012, 03:46 AM
You over crimped them, which caused them to buckle. I've done this a couple times. If they will chamber, they will iron out and be fine for future reloadings. But if they won't chamber, you will need to pull the bullets and then run them back through the resizing die to iron the buckle out enough to load. Don't expect the resizing die to completely take all of the buckle out, that will happen when you fire them.

You should be able to take the depriming and expander works out of your resizing die. This will prevent you form having to remove the primer. And by all means, save and reuse the powder as well.

A word on case prep to help prevent future probelms of this type. Make sure all of your brass is trimmed to the same length. And when crimping, be careful about not doing a repeat, this is accomplished by adjusting the crimp in small increments until you've found the sweet spot.

This is a very good time to develope some attention to detail safe guards so you can reduce the number of mistakes to just 1 or 2 rounds, instead of 250 rounds.

16in50calNavalRifle
February 7, 2012, 04:27 AM
thanks, gamestalker. Actually I realized it's more like 350 rounds, and these are the only examples of this issue. Cost/benefit (measured in time, not $$$) of trimming my handgun brass looks unattractive, so another idea is to sort out the CBC cases, and adjust the dies to seat/crimp them differently. I already do this for S&B 9mm brass (primer pockets are troublesome) and my SPP 45ACP brass, and I think I've only got a box or two of the Magtech .357 brass in the pile. So I'll just do small batches within the overall production run.

I've done all sorts of different crimps and even some variation in seating depth with this load (including just a taper) - all fired just fine and performed the same as far as I could tell. I've opted for the roll crimp just so as not to worry about set-back. The copper jacket is actually fairly thick so deformation of the bullet is limited, and in any case I don't care, it's snubby ammo for practice at short ranges.

They chamber without difficulty. Beyond identifying the cause of the crease, I was mostly interested in whether they were safe to shoot.

gamestalker
February 7, 2012, 04:46 AM
Well I'm glad they fire OK for you. But FYI, crimping longer cases such as .38 spcl, 357 mag, 44 mag, you get the idea, can present buckling, not to mention light crimps, if you don't trim the brass to same lengths. Auto loading handgun cartridges don't really get crimped, but more so just need the mouth formed back to normal after belling them.
When properely trimmed, long walled wheel gun brass is trouble free during the crimp phase once the die is adjusted correctly.

Joe's
February 7, 2012, 08:04 AM
16in50calNavelRifle,
Next time back out the crimp die a couple turns so it won't contact the case. Set your seating die stem to give proper OAL. Seat all of the bullets. Back out seater and then screw the crimper portion of the die down to add the desired crimp to the case mouth in a separate operation. I have found this eliminates all chances of having a buckled case as in your pictures. Very surprised they will even chamber.

Hope this helps,
Joe's

Walkalong
February 7, 2012, 08:11 AM
If they will chamber, you can fire them. The cases will probably give up sooner than your other cases.

As posted, the problem is too much crimp, which buckled the cases. They must have been the longest cases in the batch.

It is a good idea to trim revolver cases that could be getting a roll crimp, especially if you are using a strong crimp, to avoid things like this, and keep the crimp consistent from round to round.

sugarmaker
February 7, 2012, 08:56 AM
looks like powder compression and crimp working together. compressed powder will bulge just below the bullet.

Walkalong
February 7, 2012, 10:21 AM
It is not from power being compressed.

Grumulkin
February 7, 2012, 10:30 AM
If you buy a Lee Factory Crimp Die, you'll get a good crimp without collapsing cases.

jcwit
February 7, 2012, 10:55 AM
Here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!










The infallible LFC Die may have finally found a problem to solve!

16in50calNavalRifle
February 7, 2012, 11:22 AM
jcwit - laughing here!

Actually I have the 4-die sets, so I already have the Lee FCD. So far I have only used it with 9mm and 45ACP and jacketed bullets, every 10 or so rounds, just to confirm the rounds are being crimped properly. I also like the option to use the FCD as a separate crimp die, by backing out the seater die all the way - have not found a need for that approach yet, however.

But sorting headstamps and separating out the CBC cases should take care of this. I looked through my .357 brass and I have 5 or 6 different headstamps. All of them work fine with the current settings, aside from the CBC (which do measure longer than the rest). Looks like the "sort by headstamp" contingent here on THR may be right, after all ....

Sugarmaker, Walkalong is correct, there's no powder compression going on. In fact 6.2 grains of Silhouette looks positively lonely way down there in the bottom of the case - and I have to remove each case from the ram before seating to visually check for a charge (Trail Boss would solve this, but we have already settled that question in another thread).

gamestalker and Walkalong, your point is well taken about case length. As I will probably have to start trimming for 30 carbine anyway, perhaps I will trim my .357 after all. So far these 4 cases are the only ones to show a problem. In many hundreds of 38spl rounds, no issues. In general I go for a minimum crimp to prolong brass life, just went a bit heavier in these to make them a little hardier for the snub-nose's recoil environment.

Thanks to all for your input.

JohnM
February 7, 2012, 11:28 AM
I've never seen a bulge quite like that before.
Does it appear when the bullet is seated?
If it not I'd suspect crimping.

fguffey
February 7, 2012, 11:50 AM
The seating die does not have case support, remember, crimping only requires the slightest amount of pressure.

Adjusting the die to crimp: Adjust the die to the mouth of the case then adjust for crimp, again, an adjustment is but a hint of adjustment after contact, but first, the seater plug/stem must be adjusted for seating depth first, after the seater is adjusted, raise the stem then adjust for crimp, after adjusting for crimp lower the stem until it makes contact with the bullet, then STOP! Secure the die lock ring and stem jam nut.

Not a fix for your squatted case, I use a full length sizer die to crimp 45ACPs for 2 45 that like store bought, new, over the counter ammo, I would warn you against the practice, not a promise but your cases could separate it the case separating is easier than the crimp opening up when the bullet is released. This happened to a friend, he was?is not interested in determining the cause, he decided he was going to shed some bad habits.

F. Guffey

altitude_19
February 8, 2012, 02:49 AM
No need to sort them out of the batch. Pull the bullet and measure them. I'm betting they're longer than average (357 can vary HUGELY in case length for some reason). That causes the same effect as if the die were screwed in a few more turns. Trim them to uniform length with the rest of your cases and all will be well. Yes, firing them will iron out those wrinkles after a couple trips to the range.

16in50calNavalRifle
February 8, 2012, 02:57 AM
Thanks again to all for their input. I am fairly sure I have a mere handful of these CBC cases in all my hundreds of .357 cases. I might trim them, but it might be easier to just do a separate batch with a slightly re-adjusted seater die. Whichever is quicker and easier gets the nod. I don't find doing a few dozen SPP 45ACP that big a deal in my larger runs of the caliber, this will be similar. My volume and pace of shooting are not such that doing a few specialty loads within my basic calibers is any big deal.

altitude_19
February 8, 2012, 03:29 AM
Does that mean you measured them? Were they longer than the others?

Eb1
February 8, 2012, 10:01 PM
Sometimes straight wall brass should be trimmed. I don't trim every time I load them, but I do measure them, and if they are way over length I trim them and load the 44 Magnum.
I haven't seen a bulge that far down before.

I prefer roll crimps with Magnum pistol cartridges to the LFCD. I only use the Lee die when loading 30-30.

joneb
February 8, 2012, 10:33 PM
Here we go again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The infallible LFC Die may have finally found a problem to solve!

jc, do you really think the LFC die could iron those out ? :D

I reload to save money, as a added benefit I can reload ammunition that is more accurate and more reliable than most factory ammunition. It is discouraging that a reloader can bypass proper protocol and just use a magic die to jimmy-rig a round into chambering :confused:

NeuseRvrRat
February 8, 2012, 10:40 PM
he wasn't saying that it will fix those creased cases, but that it will prevent them from occurring in the first place.

seems that the OP's problem was caused by inconsistent case length. he crimped with the seating die, which means that cases that are longer will get more crimp and if they're long enough, they will start to fold up like the cases in the pics. the Lee FCD is not sensitive to case length variations.

joneb
February 8, 2012, 10:46 PM
seems that the OP's problem was caused by inconsistent case length.

Sorry, I just trim my brass to the same length as I do not own a LFCD

joneb
February 8, 2012, 11:06 PM
the Lee FCD is not sensitive to case length variations.

So NeuseRvrRat, how does one get a consistent roll crimp to the bullet cannalure and consistent case neck tension with the LFCD using brass of various lengths ?

A old reloader would like to know.

NeuseRvrRat
February 8, 2012, 11:11 PM
you follow the directions in the box with it

Walkalong
February 8, 2012, 11:22 PM
The FCD for rifles is a collet type "stab" crimp, for lack of a better word, where it squeezes straight in at 90 degrees from the case, so it is insensitive to case length as far as buckling cases from to heavy a crimp from a normal crimp die.

The FCD for pistols crimps like any other crimp die, but the part that crimps is not built in to the die body, it is a separate piece that screws into the die body. It is kept still by an o-ring. It is slightly more forgiving of case length due to the stretch of the 0-ring, but it too can buckle really long cases.

The carbide ring in the FCD for pistols might iron out the buckle a bit, but I would much prefer not buckling the case to begin with, so I trim cases like .38 and .357 where the cases can be a wide range of lengths.

joneb
February 8, 2012, 11:25 PM
you follow the directions in the box with it

I am not going to buy a LFCD to fix a problem I do not have just so I can read the destructions :confused:

NeuseRvrRat
February 8, 2012, 11:26 PM
i never suggested you buy it

chhodge69
February 8, 2012, 11:29 PM
I have made exactly the same bulges in my 357 brass when over-crimping jacketed rounds. Back off your crimp die and it will stop.

joneb
February 8, 2012, 11:29 PM
i never suggested you buy it

Sorry.

jcwit
February 8, 2012, 11:31 PM
jc, do you really think the LFC die could iron those out ?

I reload to save money, as a added benefit I can reload ammunition that is more accurate and more reliable than most factory ammunition. It is discouraging that a reloader can bypass proper protocol and just use a magic die to jimmy-rig a round into chambering

Doesn't matter at all what I personally think about the FCD.

Frankly, I've tried using the FCD for a period of time and thanks to another member here I was able to return to an accurate load using lead bullets and not using the FCD. I will not name the member but I'm more than positive any one that has frequented this site for more than a week has read his posts.

Personally I see no reason for the FCD in case any one is wondering, with that said I also like most of the Lee Products, no Lee bashing here.

This is in regard to the FCD for handgun rounds only, as the OP was showing a .375 round.

he wasn't saying that it will fix those creased cases, but that it will prevent them from occurring in the first place.

Not quite true, you missed the sarcasm entirely.

exbrit49
February 9, 2012, 12:01 AM
Time to go back to basics!. If the cases are long, trim them, it doesnt take much time and the time spent will pay off in consistent pressures, velocity and accuracy.
With all cases trimmed to length, and a good adjustment on the crimp operation, you should never have a problem and accuracy will surely improve.
I pick up a lot of used brass at the range and the first two thngs that happen to every case is a good tumbling and then resized and trimmed to my standard for each caliber.
Good reloading is what produces accuracy and reliability.
I Hope none of those buckled cases were loaded anywhere near maximum as the pressures could sure go over the top and create a potential hazard to you or any one near you on the range!
If you are going to reload, take the time to do it properly, its worth a little extra time.
Roger

joneb
February 9, 2012, 02:46 AM
I have old revolver brass that has not been trimmed it only varies in length + or - .002". Most of the newer revolver brass seems to have no need to be of any similar length :(

I do not trim pistol brass, it is close enough. Manufactures must keep this brass with in tolerance, as it head spaces off the case mouth. But I do check it :scrutiny:

16in50calNavalRifle
February 9, 2012, 03:30 AM
Well these are the only cases in either .357 or 38spl where this or anything else has happened, so I'm not too worried. I've segregated the few CBC cases, and I'll just set those crimp adjustments separately. Once I've warmed up with my 30 carbine brass perhaps I'll feel like trimming my revolver brass too - but so far there's been no reason to do so. Quality and accuracy of all my reloads so far have been fine.

edfardos
February 11, 2012, 07:21 PM
I just bought some new winchester 44mag reloading brass which was waaaaay to soft. I couldn't apply any crimp without seeing some buckle. I guess it'll get harder after a few (uncrimped) firings.

edfardos

altitude_19
February 12, 2012, 03:08 PM
I just bought some new winchester 44mag reloading brass which was waaaaay to soft. I couldn't apply any crimp without seeing some buckle. I guess it'll get harder after a few (uncrimped) firings.
Shoulda just bought cheap ammo, fired, and reloaded. That way you know it could at least handle the stress by looking at the factory crimp (Lee pun not intended).

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