Somebody convince me to like black rifles


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subdude
February 7, 2012, 03:15 PM
Here's the deal. My son is infatuated with black rifles. (he's 26) I don't get it. My safe is stocked with Garands, M1 Carbines, Mini 14s, Mosin Nagants, Ruger 77s and the like. Black plastic rifles just don't look like proper firearms to me.

Please understand, I'm not trying to bash anything here, I honestly want to learn about why the AR platform is so popular. Do they perform any better than a "traditional" rifle? They certainly don't seem to be any cheaper.

If it's the "commando, warrior, bad guy, mall ninja" (jk) image, okay, I can understand that I guess. As I don't perceive myself to be any sort of invading force, army ranger, etc, what does the AR really offer? I don't need flashlights, lasers, etc mounted on my rifle. I just shoot paper, and occasionally a soda can.

Again, I'm not bashing, and hope that someone will be able to explain, give me a different perspective, or even point me to somewhere I can learn.

Be gentle..... ;)

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GI_Jared
February 7, 2012, 03:22 PM
What the AR offers is customization, more so than almost any other firearm on the planet. It allows you to make a gun for a specific purpose or multiple purposes by just switching uppers.

CoRoMo
February 7, 2012, 03:24 PM
I don't think there would be any convincing you.

Your boy probably likes the commando/warrior/GI Joe imagery, so just accept it for that. After all, look at the movies that have been targeted to his age group during the past decade or more.

Then again, he might just be very knowledgeable and refined in his tastes. :evil: Sorry, I couldn't help.

FWest
February 7, 2012, 03:27 PM
Best thing I can say is go shoot one and see. Very little recoil, very accurate. Ammo is not bad priced. Can change uppers to change calibers. Fun range gun.

mberoose
February 7, 2012, 03:30 PM
Tacticancer can be treated with time, don't worry.

snakeman
February 7, 2012, 03:34 PM
Can't convince you to like them. Seems like you don't need to you already have better guns anyway. Personally I like the feel of a good bolt or lever action a lot better than that of an ar. I have an ar with two uppers and I really like the gun, but if it came down to it my savage 99 or my howa 22-250 would stay while the ar was sold. It's simply a matter of taste.

valnar
February 7, 2012, 03:36 PM
Many people like "black" rifles for the same reason people like traditional rifles. It could have nothing to do with the capability, but the aesthetics. If you happen to think black rifles are ugly like a bulldog, one could always point out people who like bulldogs.

This same question comes up with revolvers. To someone who likes the sexy, traditional lines of a Colt SAA will like it for those reasons. To somebody who sees it as an outdated piece of equipment where a Glock can hold 3x the amount of rounds is not entirely wrong, he simply likes (or dislikes) it for a different reason entirely.

Sam1911
February 7, 2012, 03:36 PM
We can't say for sure why your son prefers AR-15 over more "traditional" firearms.

It could be as simple as the commando/warrior looks, as you perceive them to be.

Or it could be because the design is very, very accurate -- and more easily can be made more accurate than most other firearms.

Or maybe it is because it is more ergonomic, and easy for most shooters to learn to shoot well.

Or maybe because it is very flexible and offers myriad possibilities in use, caliber, power, and performance.

Or maybe because it is the service rifle of the current age.

Or maybe because it tends to dominate most types of rifle competition.

Or maybe because of (in some configurations) light weight and compact size.

Or relative inexpensive ammo.

Lots of reasons. No idea which of them make the AR "trip his trigger" so to speak.

subdude
February 7, 2012, 03:38 PM
Taste I can certainly understand. No problem there. I do indeed have accurate guns, that perform far better than I can. Is the AR really that accurate?

kfgk14
February 7, 2012, 03:39 PM
Well, if you don't need the modularity, cheap ammo, light weight, diverse caliber options, incredible mechanical accuracy potential, large ammunition capacity, and relentless reliability of a mil-spec AR-pattern rifle, don't buy one.

Their light recoil impulse makes them controllable in rapid fire. This is due to the inline buffer and recoil impulse. The felt recoil (all subjective IMHO) of an AR is, to me, less than a Mini 14 of equivalent weight.

It is the most popular rifle in action sports because it is very easy and affordable to build an AR-15 that will shoot 1-1.5 MOA and is light enough to run around a three-gun field with for hours.

The AR-15 is no a ubiquitous platform in not only America, but around the world. Go to Wikipedia and look at the list of nations which issue M16's to their forces. It's impressive.

It's ergonomic. It's comfortable, the stock is often adjustable in length, and few people are to tall or short for an A1 or A2 length fixed stock. The sights are precise. The mounting of optics is easy.
It is the easiest rifle to mount accessories to. It is far easier to free float and accurize than say, the M1 Garand or M1A.

Say what you please about the 5.56 cartridge, but it has put very many people in the ground, and will keep doing so for a long, long time. Say what you please about the AR defecating where it's masticating, but the facts show a properly assembled and lubricated AR-15 will remove the carbon from the operating surfaces of the weapon on its own.

Sam1911
February 7, 2012, 03:44 PM
Is the AR really that accurate? Yes. As a general matter, the AR is "that" accurate, and anyone with the skill to detail strip a 1911 possesses the skill to assemble an AR from off-the-shelf parts that has the capacity (if the shooter and ammo are up to it) to shoot well under 1" at 100 yds -- and most likely nearly half that.

It is a very inherently accurate design.

That's one of the reasons they've become so popular as varmint and preditor rifles and get use as long-range "practical" rifles as well.

snakeman
February 7, 2012, 03:45 PM
Ar's are a great way to build on your accuracy. That said so is a well made bolt gun. It's just get what ya like and if you are asking us to convince you to like them then you already like them on some level. Go shoot with your son and if your interest is amplified then get one and if not, buy a bunch of ammo for your other guns and have blast.

subdude
February 7, 2012, 03:46 PM
Sam,

Thanks for the thoughtful answers without attitude.

mberoose
February 7, 2012, 03:48 PM
ARs are serious business.

SlamFire1
February 7, 2012, 03:48 PM
In terms of a target rifle, the AR15 platform, be it a NM service rifle, or a match rifle, is exceptionally accurate. In NM form, I believe it is the most accurate service rifle in the world.

Unfortunately my NM AR15 weighs 17 pounds because I need that weight to keep the thing steady when I shoot offhand.

As a target rifle, once set up, you don't need the thing rebedded and tweaked as you do bolt rifles and M1a’s and Garands. Both M1a’s and Garands will pound themselves loose: loose does not matter for AR15's, ones that rattle seem to shoot better than the tighter ones.

The more you can avoid gunsmiths the better. Once the buggers get to recognize you, it takes forever for them to get around in assembling or refurbishing the target rifle you sent them.

You can get National Match winning rifles direct from Rock River, Armalite, Bushmaster, and I have met the shooters who have won events or the whole enchilada at Camp Perry with stock box AR’s.

jrdolall
February 7, 2012, 03:54 PM
I originally bought mine as a varmint gun to shoot prairie dogs in MT. Cheap ammo with a ghillie suit and a bipod. Squeeze, wait, squeeze, find another target, etc. At 250 yards those dogs didn't know what was going on when I missed them, which happened about 95% of the time. I love a bolt action for most hunting but the AR really fit the bill for this type of situation. Unfortunately, for me anyway, a plague wiped out most of the dogs on this particular ranch

SharkHat
February 7, 2012, 04:15 PM
I'd recommend shooting one so that you can find out for yourself why they have gained so much popularity.

Don't let us convince you, let the rifle do it.

If you give it a try and it doesn't win you over, well at least you got to spend some time shooting one (maybe even with your son). Your opinion either way will be based on your own experience.

minutemen1776
February 7, 2012, 04:18 PM
Put aside your traditionalist bias (that's really what this is, isn't it?) and go shoot a good AR15. Then you'll likely see what the attraction is. Like you, I also own and enjoy M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, and Mosin-Nagant rifles, among other older tried-and-true designs. Even still, I loved the AR platform from the first time I was introduced. I still have a variety of things in the safe, but the AR15 is definitely a favorite.

subdude
February 7, 2012, 04:32 PM
traditionalist bias

Yeah, I guess so. Guilty as charged. However, I am most certainly willing to listen and learn.

So, what makes for a "good" AR? I don't expect a laundry list of parts that I have no idea what they are, just a basic starting point, and a direction to learn more.

browningguy
February 7, 2012, 04:37 PM
They can be easier to customize and make it exactly the configuration you want. They are accurate (if you buy the right bits), and they can even be relatively light weight (if you don't load them up with doodads). I have multiple lowers with multiple uppers so I can configure one for just paper puching, one for hunting, and one for shooting 3 gun games, it's convenient for me.

But for many poeple it's probably just a mall ninja thing.

Sheepdog1968
February 7, 2012, 04:42 PM
Personally I like your stuff better as well. I think a big part of the reason is that this is what our soliders are currently using. Who doesn't want to own what our soliders are using? If you think about it, in generations past it was the kinds of weapons you own (not all of them but you get the idea). In fact in the early 90s (in my early 20s) ARs were very popular as well (probably for the same reasons).

HoosierQ
February 7, 2012, 04:45 PM
For me, tradition vs modernity is (currently) a question of a 20" barrel and a fixed stock with a carry handle and A2 sight vs the "m4gery".

Being old school ;) I shoot a Stag Model 4 which is a full-sized 20" rifle with a fixed stock etc. If I wanted a carbine, I think I'd prefer an M1 Carbine rather than an m4 style AR-15.

So I too wrestled with the tradition question and got an A2 style AR-15. Way too easy to shoot, clean, reload, and feed.

Gordon_Freeman
February 7, 2012, 04:48 PM
I started out like your son. I didn't understand the attraction of the old rifles with wood stocks. A few years later and now the M1 Garand is my favorite rifle. I also like other old battle rifles. I still like the ARs and AKs though. Maybe your son will go through the same progression as he gets a little older.

Derek Zeanah
February 7, 2012, 04:49 PM
Do they perform any better than a "traditional" rifle? They certainly don't seem to be any cheaper.
Mostly what other people have said. The thing others haven't really emphasized is the ergonomics of the rifle though. Not "that feels good," but more of the fact that the controls are placed really well (with the possible exception of the charging handle, but at least it's ambidexterous. ;) )

Reach your trigger finger slightly forward to release the magazine and it drops free -- quite a bit easier and faster than an M1A. The safety selector is within reach of your thumb - no reason to stick your finger in the trigger guard to disable the safety. The bolt release it easy to hit without any attention to detail. Recoil with most is nonexistent (not talking about the original Carbon 15's - I didn't like shooting mine at all). If you want to shoot .458 SOCOM for giggles you can mount a new upper and turn your 30 round magazines into 10 round magazines.

The stock triggers tend to be, ummm, a bit rough. Aftermarket triggers by Timney or Geissele are surprisingly good.

Plus, they're more customizable than 1911's, which is really saying something.

You do need to keep them clean compared to some other designs though, and crappy magazines will cause reliability issues. (When I was in the service I stole magazines I knew would feed well, then only used them for qualifications. There are better magazine designs out there now though, like the Magpuls.)

At SHOT this year the publications they were passing out kept referring to MSR rifles. Turns out that stands for Modern Sporting Rifle, which you might guess is an AR platform, but in camo.

You'll be seeing them for a while.

Adam123
February 7, 2012, 04:59 PM
There are hundreds of threads just on this forum that answer the OP.

Sniper66
February 7, 2012, 05:29 PM
To me, dressing up a black rifle is like putting lipstick on a pig. Lots of people have them and enjoy them...even nephews in my family, but I doubt I'll ever own one. But, I said that about laminate stocks and composite stocks. Now I have 3 of them. Go figure. Never say never. The only bad gun is the one that sits in the corner ignored.

chrt396
February 7, 2012, 05:32 PM
Here's the deal. My son is infatuated with black rifles. (he's 26) I don't get it. My safe is stocked with Garands, M1 Carbines, Mini 14s, Mosin Nagants, Ruger 77s and the like. Black plastic rifles just don't look like proper firearms to me.

Please understand, I'm not trying to bash anything here, I honestly want to learn about why the AR platform is so popular. Do they perform any better than a "traditional" rifle? They certainly don't seem to be any cheaper.

If it's the "commando, warrior, bad guy, mall ninja" (jk) image, okay, I can understand that I guess. As I don't perceive myself to be any sort of invading force, army ranger, etc, what does the AR really offer? I don't need flashlights, lasers, etc mounted on my rifle. I just shoot paper, and occasionally a soda can.

Again, I'm not bashing, and hope that someone will be able to explain, give me a different perspective, or even point me to somewhere I can learn.

Be gentle..... ;)
AMEN Brudda!!!
I agree with you! I have 1 token black gun. I shoot it sparingly. That's all I need! I appreciate the beautiful wood and special grains that seem to make a rifle a family heirloom.

JustinJ
February 7, 2012, 05:44 PM
How woudl you respond if i said "convince me to like Garands"?

Ashcons
February 7, 2012, 06:08 PM
Got a friend with one you can go give a try? You'll either like it or you won't after the experience of shooting it. You're the only one missing out on anything if you decide you don't like EBRs without giving them a shot (zing).

Go read Dr. Seuss' Green Eggs & Ham :)

C-grunt
February 7, 2012, 06:09 PM
Taste I can certainly understand. No problem there. I do indeed have accurate guns, that perform far better than I can. Is the AR really that accurate?

Here is a video I found with a quick search on Youtube. Not the best video but shows that ARs can be very accurate when set up properly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJWLP81qCAE

CoRoMo
February 7, 2012, 06:12 PM
So, what makes for a "good" AR?
I have a chart around here somewhere that I'd like you to take a look at.

snakeman
February 7, 2012, 06:28 PM
Most ar companies are pretty good. I would look into dpms, stag, del-ton, palmetto state armory, and smith and wesson. Also, look at ar15.com for some genuine insight and let yourself take in the bountiful wisdom and shut out the blatant ignorance you will get from trying to be convinced. I have a love/hate relationship with ar's. Emphasis on the love part. Granted there are things they fall short at and things they excell at. If you have the extra funds what's it gonna hurt?

ugaarguy
February 7, 2012, 06:32 PM
So, what makes for a "good" AR?
Others have already mentioned the modularity. To answer that, I have to ask another question. What do you want the AR to do? The main categories I can think of are:
- Range toy / plinker
- Hard Use / Duty Weapon / Personal & Home Defense / High round count training courses
- 3 gun & similar shoot & move type competition
- DCM & similar service rifle competition
- Long range varminter or long range bench rest gun
- Lightweight hunting carbine
- Retro Style collector builds

Let us know what you want it to do, and we can give more informed responses.

GLShooter
February 7, 2012, 06:56 PM
I have a lot of the OP rifle selection except the Mosins. The safe is full of good bolt guns, M1 Carbines, M1A's and Garands. It also has almost a dozen, i haven't counted late;y, AR's from mild to wild. 22 RF up to 25 WSSM. The modularity is unreal and the choices for quality parts is endless. I shot a lot of 3 Gun matches and prairie dogs. I tend toward the varmint hunting box more than anything but got the 25 WSSM to use as a light elk rifle if the wife wanted to go.

The ability to swap top ends and go after anything in North America with little effort is a very nice feature. Once you get one with a good trigger and optics that balances well it is hard to argue against them unless the need for real wood furniture is a huge issue that is!!

Greg

BrocLuno
February 7, 2012, 07:24 PM
Now, IF I could come up with a nice matte dark silver/gray finish and some Kalif manzanita wood furniture for an AR, I might be looking? Since I toted a Mattel rifle when I was in, it's not my favorite color combo. I'm not against black, but plastic and aluminum are not my version of "pretty" and most of my rifles have to look good in the end. I understand and appreciate the need for the look when on actual patrol, whatever. I am not trying to be Army gain - been there, done that.

Even my M1 Garands do not look like they just came off the battle field. I like a little parade dress. I watch the British soldiers doing a "change of the guards" with their red and black uniforms and modern weapons and they look out of place (to me). I'd rather see them with Enfields polished and shiny standing in front of the castle. The guys on the roof, on the other hand, maybe better have AR's?

Sheepdog1968
February 7, 2012, 07:29 PM
I started out like your son. I didn't understand the attraction of the old rifles with wood stocks. A few years later and now the M1 Garand is my favorite rifle. I also like other old battle rifles. I still like the ARs and AKs though. Maybe your son will go through the same progression as he gets a little older.
I ended up taking it one step further. Now my favorite rifle (by a long shot) is my lever action 30-30. I didn't expect that to happen. In fact, I bought the lever action just to have one. Who knew it would end up being what I take out to shoot more than anything else.

sirgilligan
February 7, 2012, 07:34 PM
I have a "black" rifle that is not an AR-15. It has lots of plastic on it.
It takes the STANAG/NATO magazine. That is one reason I like it.
It shoots 5.56x45mm ammunition. That is the second reason I like it.
It is semi-auto. That is the third reason I like it.

I find those three things to be useful.

My Dad's M1 Carbine is prettier to me.
I think a Ruger Mini-30 with a wood stock would be a rifle that looks like a rifle.

The M1 Carbine, the Ruger Mini, and my "black" rifle are all good rifles.

The older style rifles with wood stocks are more visually appealing to me.

Just like with my pistols. My Browning Hi-Powers with wood stocks are the ones I think are the prettiest. And in this case, pretty is deadly accurate too!

With the same theme of the OP, I have never warmed up to the polymer pistols. But, I made the leap to the "black" rifle and I am happy. I bet if I ever get a quality polymer pistol I will like it too.

JFrame
February 7, 2012, 08:09 PM
This thread speaks to me.

Like the OP, I have never been able to acquire an interest in the AR. This is not to denigrate the system or manufacturers by any means -- I fully acknowledge their value and capabilities. There's just something about them that doesn't "sing" to me. Maybe it's the sheer ubiquitousness of them that keeps them from being interesting for me.

As a few others have said, I would prefer what's already in the OP's safe. Heck -- you can stop at the Garands and M-1 carbines, and I'd be satisfied... :cool:

Given the sheer volume of AR choices and accessories out there, I am actually hoping that, someday, a switch will go on inside me to desire one. :)


.

jpwilly
February 7, 2012, 08:12 PM
Somebody convince me to like black rifles

Why?

I have much of what you have in my safe also but along with a couple AR-15's. I like them but you don't have to.

Hunterdad
February 7, 2012, 08:15 PM
I love metal guns with nice wood. I have some beautiful shotguns and rifles that have some amazing wood. With that said, I also love my AR. I just cant miss with it and it is so versatile. An AR has a place in everyones collection in my opinion whether it be plinking or long range predator hunting.

Sam1911
February 7, 2012, 08:23 PM
I am actually hoping that, someday, a switch will go on inside me to desire one

I can relate. I don't own one myself. But shooting a fair bit of competition and training type exercises has found me frequently facing the "but the dang thing just WORKS better" facts from time to time. I know I can work really, really, really hard and someday I'll be at the top of my game shooting some rifle or pistol that I really like. Or...though I may want to jump up and kick my own butt for saying it ... I could switch to the "Fan Club's Favorite" rifle or pistol and get to the same level of proficiency in 1/2 the time.

And that helps explain the immense popularity of certain guns like ARs and Glocks (and maybe 1911s too, for us traditionalists). Large numbers of folks have tried a hundred different rifles or pistols, but are simply able to do better, faster, and more easily -- as a measurable trend -- with certain guns that happen to have found the sweet spot of shootability, accuracy, and all the little factors that help folks put bullets where they want.

And, in the end it is all about putting a bullet in the exact spot you want in a timely fashion. You may say, well, I just like working the action of this Mauser, or listening to the "Ping" of my Garand, or whatever, but if you're cutting right to the soul of the exercise (because you want to win at competition or stay alive as long as possible in a war or self-defense encounter) none of that really matters.

The AR-15 probably ISN'T the very most perfect balance of features for the most people that ever could be developed, and gun technology probably hasn't stopped evolving. But it is getting darned close -- so close that when the best most cutting-edge gun companies try to develop something better they can't make a big enough step forward for anyone to exactly fall in love with (or even agree upon the value of) their improvements.

JFrame
February 7, 2012, 08:36 PM
I can relate. I don't own one myself. But shooting a fair bit of competition and training type exercises has found me frequently facing the "but the dang thing just WORKS better" facts from time to time. I know I can work really, really, really hard and someday I'll be at the top of my game shooting some rifle or pistol that I really like. Or...though I may want to jump up and kick my own butt for saying it ... I could switch to the "Fan Club's Favorite" rifle or pistol and get to the same level of proficiency in 1/2 the time.

And that helps explain the immense popularity of certain guns like ARs and Glocks (and maybe 1911s too, for us traditionalists). Large numbers of folks have tried a hundred different rifles or pistols, but are simply able to do better, faster, and more easily -- as a measurable trend -- with certain guns that happen to have found the sweet spot of shootability, accuracy, and all the little factors that help folks put bullets where they want.

And, in the end it is all about putting a bullet in the exact spot you want in a timely fashion. You may say, well, I just like working the action of this Mauser, or listening to the "Ping" of my Garand, or whatever, but if you're cutting right to the soul of the exercise (because you want to win at competition or stay alive as long as possible in a war or self-defense encounter) none of that really matters.

The AR-15 probably ISN'T the very most perfect balance of features for the most people that ever could be developed, and gun technology probably hasn't stopped evolving. But it is getting darned close -- so close that when the best most cutting-edge gun companies try to develop something better they can't make a big enough step forward for anyone to exactly fall in love with (or even agree upon the value of) their improvements.


Well, Sam -- that is about the most persuasive sequence of words I've heard yet on behalf of the AR. :)


.

Sam1911
February 7, 2012, 08:40 PM
Well, crud. Guess I gotta go buy one! ;)

Gtimothy
February 7, 2012, 08:51 PM
Say what you please about the 5.56 cartridge, but it has put very many people in the ground, and will keep doing so for a long, long time. Say what you please about the AR defecating where it's masticating, but the facts show a properly assembled and lubricated AR-15 will remove the carbon from the operating surfaces of the weapon on its own.
If a dirty bolt group turns you against the AR, the new gas piston uppers are the way to go. I have an Adams Arms upper on mine and even after a couple hundred rounds, the handguard wasn't too hot and the bolt/carrier assembly was still clean. A far cry from my first AR with direct impingement system....That gun would get SERIOUSLY hot at the hand guard and the cleanup after the shoot....well you know!

JFrame
February 7, 2012, 10:05 PM
Well, crud. Guess I gotta go buy one! ;)


Ha -- you certainly can't be immune to your own eloquence! http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/big_standart/biggrin.gif


.

MachIVshooter
February 7, 2012, 11:51 PM
Lots of good answers here. I'll just add this:

No one but you can convince you to like them, but.............I'd bet money that once you try one, you will like it.

I'm with you on aesthetics. I love a beautiful walnut stock on a shiny blue rifle. The AR isn't a pretty gun. The AR's attractiveness is a functional beauty, much like the Glock. Mine don't get put behind the etched glass in my show cabinet; They live in the corner of the room. But should the need for firepower arise, I'll not be going after the ones in the cabinet. I'll be reaching in the corner.

Mostly a fun gun, I also use mine for close-in varminting (it's a 16" mid length A2). On a really active praire rat town, it's hard to beat. I only switch to my .220 Swift heavy varmint rifle after we've either killed or scared into their holes all the nearby critters.

My advice is to not overthink the AR until you've had a little trigger time with one. If you don't like the way they look, you'll have to like the way they shoot. If you don't like the way they shoot either, then the AR is not for you.

Red October
February 8, 2012, 01:02 PM
I'm going to try a different tactic here.
OP, I notice that you have a Garand, a Carbine, and a Mosin. I'm going to assume (risky, I know) that you have collected these at least partly due to their history.
Like many on this site, I collect firearms, mostly military. They range from my oldest (1884 "Trapdoor" Springfield) to the more modern AR/M4 type plaforms. For many of us, the historic combat weapons that we grew up reading about were traditional wood-stocked rifles such as the Garand, the 1903, the Mosin, etc. "Black rifles" are the modern generation's historic combat weapons (the M-16 is almost fifty years old). Other "black rifles", such as the G-3/HK91 and FN-FAL have also been around a while.
As Sam pointed out, as technology improves and rifle designs get combat tested, things get better. Improved ergonomics is one of the results that we have seen.
I like them simply for being the next step in the evolution of combat rifles.

valnar
February 8, 2012, 02:03 PM
subdude,
Black plastic rifles just don't look like proper firearms to me.

What if it did look like a rifle? Take a nice, brand new Sako 85 (http://www.sako.fi/sako85models.php?synthss) bolt-action with synthetic stock and stainless barrel. Nobody would argue that it's not a fantastic rifle as well as weather resistant. It's silhouette looks just like a classic rifle to me. Does that still offend you?

I'm trying to figure out if you don't like the mechanics and architecture of the AR15, or the material composition. I noticed you had a Mini-14. That's a semi-auto as well, but like the Garand, I assume yours is wood + blued steel?

What would you think of an AR15 with wood furniture? Better? Or is it just the newness of the design? All sterile and functional.

(Not disagreeing with you BTW. I love classic rifles better too)

WVRJ
February 8, 2012, 02:26 PM
I had the same attitude towards the black rifle-they are just part of the tactical fad,aren't accurate,are too heavy,they are all show and no go.Boy was I wrong!I woudn't consider my collection complete without one.

subdude
February 8, 2012, 02:27 PM
Guys,

Really, the AR platform does NOT "offend" me. I was really just trying to understand the reasoning behind the popularity, be it performance, accuracy, aesthetics, etc. I never said I had anything against them, just that I didn't "get it".

That said, I truly appreciate all the posters who have offered their opinions without bashing anything, or being negative or degrading. I'll bring this to a close by saying thanks, and that I fully intend to educate myself further by giving one a test drive. (well okay, I'll probably just buy one ;-)

Thanks again.

mdauben
February 8, 2012, 02:44 PM
Here's the deal. My son is infatuated with black rifles. (he's 26) I don't get it. My safe is stocked with Garands, M1 Carbines, Mini 14s, Mosin Nagants, Ruger 77s and the like. Black plastic rifles just don't look like proper firearms to me.

I think I can to an extent relate to your feelings. If you were to set the same model guns down in front of me, one with composite stock a stainless barrel and the other with a wood stock and blued barrel, I'd take the wood/blued gun almost every time. I just like the look of the "traditional" gun. :cool:

On the other hand, I do own a AR15. Its not as pretty as a more traditional gun, but it is a lot of fun to shoot. Easily customizable, cheap to shoot, generally accurate, its got a lot going for it. ;)

Ignition Override
February 8, 2012, 03:30 PM
When your son was six-eleven years old, he might not have seen various series such as Combat, The Rat Patrol, movies such as D Day, The Desert Fox etc. With about three-five channels, they were hard to miss.

And with so many choices now, he might have also missed The Desert Fox, Objective Burma etc.

Maybe computer games can cover many different wars and combat theaters? The "in" games might determine what the "in" weapons are. You have no idea how thankful I am that there is not more demand for many classic battle rifles. The black rifle fashion has been the salvation. By the way, it is actually verboten to use satire on gun websites.

tahunua001
February 8, 2012, 03:35 PM
I have 2 ARs, only one is a black rifle and it is mostly aluminum, very little plastic involved in it's setup. I like it

1. because most of my friends are in college and are still hunting with the bolts and lever guns that they inherited from their parents while I took the easy route and went military so I can afford the rifles they wish they had. It gives all the poor college students an excuse to come out to the ranch and shoot the guns that they normally would never get to shoot and get some bonding time in.

2. I can hunt just about anything smaller than black bear in Idaho with them. one's in 9mm so deer hunting with it is a matter of great debate.

3. it brings the fun of shooting semi autos without having to deal with the toy-ish recoil of a 22.

4. greatly customizable, I absolutely hate the ergonomics on cookie cutter ARs but I can easily swap out that pistol grip and handguard to make that gun fit me like a glove.

5. if I ever need to bug out(I am not trying to turn this into a SHTF debate) I can grab either of my ARs and be prepared and just about any member of my family can use any of my guns for the same purpose.

6. if I'm ever out in the woods and get jumped by any animal I would rather have a semi auto than a bolt.

7. lastly, I am not going to convince you to go out and buy a black rifle. I love my ARs but I also love my bolt guns and I am expanding my collection with WWII battle rifles. every platform has it's pros and cons and you just have to decided what you like the most.

kennedy762
February 8, 2012, 05:28 PM
Its a generation gap issue

WWI-Springfield 1903- Bolt Gun revolution
WWII- M1 Garand- Semi-Auto sporter revolution
Post Vietnam- M-16 -Evil black rifle revolution.

I'm sure this is up to a considerable amount of debate, but these are just examples....

chrt396
February 8, 2012, 05:45 PM
How woudl you respond if i said "convince me to like Garands"?
I LOVE Garands!!! Beautiful..even worn!!!

chrt396
February 8, 2012, 05:46 PM
Its a generation gap issue

WWI-Springfield 1903- Bolt Gun revolution
WWII- M1 Garand- Semi-Auto sporter revolution
Post Vietnam- M-16 -Evil black rifle revolution.

I'm sure this is up to a considerable amount of debate, but these are just examples....
Are you calling me a old fart???

WVRJ
February 8, 2012, 07:41 PM
I didn't get to finish,had a customer come in and interrupt me before I got done.I bought my Bushmaster a little over a year ago,and the guy I bought it from let me take it home and try it out.I couldn't understand what all the hubbub was about,I had always been a bolt lover until that day.I shot 3 into a 2 inch group at about 80 yards with the red dot,and that impressed me.I figured something meant for battle wasn't gonna be anything but a pieplate shooter at 100 yards.After I bought it and put a scope on and started handloading it,MOA or better was the norm.Never a jam,always accurate,most impressive indeed.What was bought to be a beater went to the safe instead of the pickup.An open mind is always good!I love that thing and have tons of fun with it,whether I'm at the bench making little groups,hunting or just flingin lead and having fun.And it's a mighty reassuring thing to know it's there if times get bad.

jsimmons
February 8, 2012, 07:54 PM
Try to swing a Garand quickly through a doorway. :)

Who are we that our likes/dislikes should affect the way to approach firearms? You don't have to like black rifles (and by the way, one of mine has a polymer stock and a polymer pistol grip - the rest is metal). If your son likes 'em, that's cool.

I like the idea of having a Garand, but my AR-15 is a better rifle for me, and you have to be a lot more careful about buying a 60-year-old mil-surp rifle than a new AR-15.

I would really like it if my dad gave me his 56-year-old-and-never-even-had-a-round-chambered Winchester Model 94, but that would definitely be a safe queen.

Like what you want. We don't mind.

benEzra
February 8, 2012, 08:22 PM
Maybe computer games can cover many different wars and combat theaters? The "in" games might determine what the "in" weapons are. You have no idea how thankful I am that there is not more demand for many classic battle rifles.
My 12-year-old son wants me to buy a semiauto-only PPSh to keep in the safe for him. Thank Call of Duty 2 for that. :D

Driftertank
February 8, 2012, 08:51 PM
Once you get one with a good trigger and optics that balances well it is hard to argue against them unless the need for real wood furniture is a huge issue that is!!
http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65973/28814.JPG

Tirod
February 9, 2012, 10:59 AM
"Convince me to like a Garand."

I've handled and used traditional firearms, but my first was an HK91. So, you can put me in the "military" camp. I have a Rem 700, a Win 94 .30-30, and others, which is to say, I have compared old school to new side by side. All the while I was in the Reserves 22 years toting the little jammomatic poodleshooter. Surprisingly, in all that time, it never jammed, and I never got to shoot any feral French hunting canines.

So, convince me old school guns are better? Not so much. First, they are mostly wood and steel. Wood dings up and chips, steel rusts, and bluing is worse than parkerizing. Sure, polished blued steel is pretty. And a used field gun nearly 50 years old, like the 94, is far from pretty. Sitting in a truck, it rusts. Back from a long day's hunt in pouring sleet (it's your only day to deer hunt that year,) the HK won't. Drop it on the rocks because you have large spiders crawling up your arms busting brush, wood chips and dings. Polymer will take a scratch in comparison.

Clean it after a day at the range, or in classes, the Garand will confound you with its obstinate abilty to retain the piston in the gas cylinder, and you will clean it in the Army frequently. The AR15 will expose the cylinder and rings within literal seconds, shotgun the action, drop three pins, and start wiping it down. The bolt carrier IS the gas cylinder, it's the easiest ever invented to clean. Why people make over more difficult designs as superior beats me, you have to clean them too. And if you want to neglect it, either will suffer for quite awhile.

Add a optic to a lever, not well designed for top eject; easier for a bolt, but it's still an open receiver, and the outdoor environment can and will work it's way into the action. The AR will stay cleaner,even with the port cover open. The A3 flattop rail is a universal mount allowing a huge multitude of rings, scopes, red dots, practically whatever has been invented. The traditional designs can't do it and offer more restrictions than options.

If you want to build your own hunting rifle from literal parts shipped to the door, the AR is the standard, not the traditional rifle. It's not about DI - it's about the barrel extension and the fact the bolt locks into it, not a receiver. That makes putting one together a literal kitchen table exercise. Traditional rifles require a hydraulic press to install the barrel, headspace guages, and a machinists technical education to get together. The AR requires some rubber vice blocks and a large pair of channelocks. If you can replace a waterpump, you can assemble a top end AR and compete at the National level. That's simply not possible for the traditional shooter.

It's also why the AR dominates the field where it's allowed. Like NASCAR, the traditionalists have been harder at work restricting the AR's participation rather than actually being competitive. It's exactly why the first SOF Three Gun Invitation outlawed the .300 Whisper, they didn't want the AR on the range. Things change, the AR is now the standard to compare to, and traditional guns can't compete.

Ergonomics is the key, you can shoot the AR more accurately, faster, and in less time than any other gun. It's the reason why they dominate the field at the National Match level. Even the AR10 is becoming the standard in longer range precision fire, and the military is moving to them more often where a faster rate of fire is required for the mission. The bolt snipers have moved up to magnum levels and extreme long range in the process.

Traditional rifles still have a place, but it's becoming a niche application. The modern rifle is replacing it in many areas, just like they replaced cap and ball, and those replaced muzzleloaders. It takes time to trickle down thru the traditions, but 45 years of service and 20 million soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines know the M16, and it's not what some make of it. They HAVE relied on it for their life, and trust it. It's largely the non service civilian who's behind the times. That's what tradition is, celebrating the past.

I've got my Curios and Relics, even trained on some, but when shooting is important, I rely on a modern weapon designed to help do the job with me, not force me to conform to it and understand avoiding it's defects. They are considerable given they are relatively older tools, just like my Dad's 1/4" drill from the 1950's. Not even comparable to a good 18V drill driver.

jaysouth
February 9, 2012, 11:05 AM
Dupont spray paint for plastic!

39 colors available from candyapple red to titian violet. Check out the day-glo shades.

RangerHAAF
February 9, 2012, 11:22 AM
I'll put it in my perspective and that is that as individuals we are influenced by the prevailing popular culture of our time. The latest generation that has come of age has been bombarded by images of the AR and video games. Like music we favor the things that appeal to us while we grow up between the ages of about 18-25.

Me for example, I like music that was created between 1980-88 and everything else created after that(with a few exceptions) is garbage to my ears and so I believe a similar standard applies to guns. I personally like and prefer AK-47s to AR-15s but I love my AR-10 and I hunt with it.

This past Saturday I went to the local range near Emory University and while I'm there this kid comes up and shows me an immaculately tricked out AR-15 with laser sights, flashlights, etc. and it looked like he just bought it off the showroom rack. I couldn't but help think that he probably bought the thing after being inspired from some video game and that's fine to promote and push market sales; but for the newest generation it's more about image and flash.

DM~
February 9, 2012, 12:33 PM
Somebody convince me to like black rifles

Why would i do that? Each of us buys our firearms (and everything else) to meet OUR needs/wants, if YOU don't have a want or need to own this type of firearm, that's OK with me.

I'm "older", and i never had the need/want for an AR until "recently", so, yesterday i bought one, there you have it.

DM

Rshooter
February 9, 2012, 12:54 PM
I have a mauser, 1903, Garand and an M1A. I stayed away from the AR like a plague. The last time I had handled one it was an A1. With all of the modern sights and upgrades available I finally got an AR. Now I have two in my safe. The gun is ergonomically great, light, and very accurate. They also help save wear and tear on my "collector" guns.

BrocLuno
February 9, 2012, 06:42 PM
http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65973/28814.JPG
I think I have seen the light :) What rifle is that (MFG?) and whose furniture is that?

Archaic
February 9, 2012, 06:46 PM
Well, as a former 'woody' that felt the same way you do I can give you a lot of reasons I have been converted - but I'll stick with just two.

Nate - 11
Seth - 8

I bought a S&W MP15 on a lark when I found it for sale for $600 at a gun store. I bought a 100 rd box of ammo and carried it out to the deer lease one weekend with the boys and several other guns. I shot one magazine through it, they shot the rest of the box up and complained when it was empty. My wife will shoot it too.

Oh yeah, I have never been able to kill more than one hog while spotlighting with a bolt action rifle. The first time out with the AR - three dead piggys.

I'm sold.

Justin
February 10, 2012, 01:30 PM
Maybe computer games can cover many different wars and combat theaters? The "in" games might determine what the "in" weapons are. You have no idea how thankful I am that there is not more demand for many classic battle rifles. The black rifle fashion has been the salvation. By the way, it is actually verboten to use satire on gun websites.

There's no "maybe" about it. (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/08/call-of-duty-effect/) In the past few years, video games have become the most predominate form of entertainment media consumed. Among video games, the absolute king of the hill of mass video game sales is the Call of Duty series of First Person Shooters*. The makers of this series obsessively reproduce digital replicas of many commonly available military rifles, pistols, shotguns, subguns, belt-fed machineguns, and all of the accessories that go with them. For the people who opt to engage in online multiplayer, there's an insane amount of customization that you can do to your loadout, down to and including the color of the reticle in your scope.

Even the online trailer (http://youtu.be/AdKgDVruHfo?hd=1) for the game reads like a brief catalog for all of the biggest brand names in military equipment.

One of the most noteworthy things I've seen in the latest version of the game is how dominant the corporate badging on much of the equipment is. At least two of the rifles in the game prominently sport Remington logos on the side (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/05/16/the-guns-of-call-of-duty-modern-warfare-3/), and I can tell you that the EoTech logo is impossible to miss on the holographic sight.

While older generations may have gotten their media-induced gun-buying cues from Hollywood movies and tv shows, Generation Y is getting their interest in guns from FPS video games. From a 2nd Amendment perspective, we couldn't have it any better, as games are largely devoid of the left-wing proselytizing seen in movies, games allow the player to take an active role in the actions of the protagonists, and they're tilted heavily in favor of black rifles.

From a cultural perspective, the only way things could be better would be if they included a free NRA membership with each copy of the game.







*Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 sold over 9 million copies on the first day it was released.

Fiv3r
February 10, 2012, 02:08 PM
It's absolutely an age issue by and large. I'm at the tail end of Generation X. For the first 10 years of my life I was bombarded with Cold War related games, toys, cartoons, and movies. By the time I was 6, Rambo was my hero (Rambo as in the butt-kicking, POW-saving, arrow slinger...not the emotionally damaged one from First Blood). I did not miss an episode G.I. Joe sticking it to the terrorists of Cobra. I watched the Wolverines repel communist paratroopers on VHS.

I'm in my early thirties now and still enjoy first person shooters including Call of Duty and the Battlefield games. While I enjoy them as simple distractions to unwind with after the Mrs and I get the baby to bed, the amount of statistical knowledge a lot of these kids playing this game is staggering.

They can rattle off twist-rates, manufacturers, accessories, etc. Me, I know that my video game character is shooting 5.56 out of an M4, and I'm REALLY wishing I could drop that other guy in less than 4 shots:evil:

In short, video games are the new media for Generation Y. I watched G.I. Joe and Rambo in the 80's, some of y'all slightly older guys watched Combat! and the like in the 60's. Some of you all were on the front lines (thank you). We are simply drawn toward what we are familiar with. We also have to take into consideration that these kids have parents using the EBR in their daily active duty.
When it comes down to it, kids like the guns they use in the video games and see on TV. A lot of people make a lot of hay about that, but these are the times we live in.

CraigC
February 10, 2012, 02:54 PM
I used to feel the same way. I am at heart completely traditional. I love blued steel and walnut. Leverguns, single action revolvers, blackpowder and flintlocks. I like my sixguns to wear walnut, ivory or stag. Not plastic or rubber. I like finely crafted leather over nylon. Receiver sights over scopes. Revolvers over autos. 1911's over Glocks. Nothing stirs my soul more than a fine single action with a well executed bone charcoal color case hardened frame, lustrous bluing and ivory stocks. I also love a hand built flintlock rifle of the Pennsylvannia or Hawken style with a wonderfully figured maple stock and brass fittings. I know we can't all like the same things but I have to feel sorry for those who do not share my appreciation for such things. Reading Tirod's post makes me truly sad for those who see firearms merely as tools.

However, about three years ago I decided that what I needed was a black rifle. Or more literally, a green rifle. I needed a rifle that would be purpose-built for taking care of midnight marauders that were getting into my feed stores and chicken house. Something I could actually mount a light to and easily manipulate it. After much planning, it came to me in the form of a heavily modified Ruger 10/22. I spent a lot of hours building, machining and finishing it. Not only did the final product do what I needed it to with aplomb, it was actually fun to shoot. Not to mention cool looking. This lead to my first AR-15 two years later. It's an excellent rifle and MOA accurate, even with relatively inexpensive ammo. I've now built another Ruger for the old man. These guns are imminently useful and fun to shoot. So while tactical rifles have found a place in my accumulation, they will never replace the blued steel and walnut that has a permanent place in my heart and soul. Because shooting and hunting for me is about passion, not merely getting a particular task accomplished.


AR's are serious business
The seriousness lies with the shooter, not the rifle. For I take those who shoot and hunt only with flintlock rifles they built themselves, roundballs cast in their garage, patches cut from fabric, lube made from critters, while wearing clothes 'they' stitched together, leather and accoutrements made with their own hands, far more seriously than Joe Blow who goes to the range every couple months just to make noise with his AR. It's about the individual, not the equipment he bought at the store.

bikerdoc
February 10, 2012, 03:48 PM
OP , It is a non issue I dont get involved. My son likes X, I like why, end of story.
I carried a 16 in the Nam. I also carried a "borrowed" M1 carbine. Not gonna tell you whats in the safe. Like what you like. If you should have an epiphany so much he better, if not o'well life happens.

bowyer19
March 18, 2012, 12:49 AM
I didn't like them either but now would hate to be without one. You can get uppers for mice to moose that will all go on the same lower. You can change uppers in probably less than a minute. Using the same lower you can have the same trigger pull and general feel in the weapon. They are accurate,reliable and low recoil.
They are like a "Barbie Doll for Men" you can change them so much.

dcarch
March 18, 2012, 01:27 AM
The govt. hates the fact that we have them. That's reason enough for me. :D:D:D

proven
March 18, 2012, 01:40 AM
do we really need this same thread over and over? there's a search function that serves a purpose, especially for new members. no offense, OP, but why do we need to convince you to like a rifle that you clearly are adverse to? use the search function and read the opinions of others. no point in cluttering up the rifle section with another "new to black rifles" thread every three days.

RPRNY
March 18, 2012, 01:48 AM
I started reading this post as a skeptic and two things happened by the time I got to the end. First, this is the only time I have read a potentially contentious thread on a firearms forum where nobody got their knickers in a twist. There was good attitude and well reasoned argument throughout. Second, I learned a lot. I still don't want one, but I can say that I have a much better understanding of and perspective on the black rifle, aka MSR. I appreciate the time their advocates took to explain things and I get that it's not purely a tactikewl mall ninja immaturity thing and that there are well reasoned arguments behind the primacy of the AR platform. Good read, thanks.

tarosean
March 18, 2012, 01:53 AM
do we really need this same thread over and over? there's a search function that serves a purpose, especially for new members. no offense, OP, but why do we need to convince you to like a rifle that you clearly are adverse to? use the search function and read the opinions of others. no point in cluttering up the rifle section with another "new to black rifles" thread every three days.

Like it or not there is a new AR thread once or twice a day... thus making it quite difficult to attempt to find something specific without lots of weeding...

35 Whelen
March 18, 2012, 02:05 AM
As an almost 50 year old guy, I resisted for a long time even to the point of telling my High Power buddies "Never" when they told me I needed an AR. My main reason was that EVERYONE shoots them and I get tired of seeing them. Last October I found that with my dealer discount I could buy a Del-Ton kit for $390. A local gun shop was selling lowers for $100. Hmm...sounded like a $500 AR to me, so I built one.

Long story short, this month I fired my third High Power match with it and I love it. I spent most of today building a steel target that simulates the 200 yd. SR target. Firing my AR offhand with plinking handloads, it was easy to keep all the shots in the 8-ring with more than half of them going into the black.

All that said, I recognize the AR for what it is: perhaps the perfect platform for short-range defense and poking holes in paper out to 600 yds., and a fair to good choice for short to medium range deer hunting and varmint hunting. It is not nor will it ever be my "if I could only have one rifle" rifle.

I honestly believe some people have developed such an infatuation with the AR, that they forget that, except for High Power competition, it's a rifle generally capable of handling short to medium range cartridges.

This past Saturday I went to the local range near Emory University and while I'm there this kid comes up and shows me an immaculately tricked out AR-15 with laser sights, flashlights, etc. and it looked like he just bought it off the showroom rack. I couldn't but help think that he probably bought the thing after being inspired from some video game and that's fine to promote and push market sales; but for the newest generation it's more about image and flash.

My observations as well. Lots of AR owners can name every gimmick and gadget ever made for the platform and can likewise be giddy over the cheap ammo, but few have a clue how to use them or how well they shoot at anything further than a shotshell hull laying on the 25 yd. berm.

35W

tarosean
March 18, 2012, 02:11 AM
I never really cared for them either.

However, I started looking at A1 builds a while ago for that original look/configuration that would be at home in just about any collection. Then I started to think I wanted the option of mounting a nice scope. so that led me down a different path all together with flat tops.

All of this ended with me ordering from LaRue Tactical no where in the same ballpark as what I was originally thinking. ha

35 Whelen
March 18, 2012, 02:11 AM
do we really need this same thread over and over?

Yess we do. Otherwise, eventually ever firearms subject under the sun will have been covered and we'll all be limited to using the Search function. How much fun would that be?

35W

proven
March 18, 2012, 02:24 AM
Yess we do. Otherwise, eventually ever firearms subject under the sun will have been covered and we'll all be limited to using the Search function. How much fun would that be?


i guess i'll start a few "ar vs. ak" threads, just to keep things "fun".

nathan
March 18, 2012, 02:32 AM
The AR has been hyped to incredible limits both in TV, videogames and movies. Its all brainwashing the next generation the reasons why people buy it.

Art Eatman
March 18, 2012, 10:30 AM
I'm mostly a hunter, so my AR is more of a fun-toy than a serious rifle. The pistol grip and magazine keep it from being an easy-carry hunting rifle for a walking hunter, compared to a conventional bolt-gun.

Nothing wrong with an AR; just limited for utility in what I mostly do with a rifle.

Sam1911
March 18, 2012, 11:28 AM
Its all brainwashing the next generation the reasons why people buy it

Brainwashing with fact, reason, experience, and proof of concept. Novel idea!

CraigC
March 18, 2012, 12:06 PM
Yes we do. Otherwise, eventually ever firearms subject under the sun will have been covered and we'll all be limited to using the Search function. How much fun would that be?
Believe me, it's no fun at all. I'm a member on an automotive forum where the administrators are search Nazi's. If anything comes up that has been covered before, the thread is closed and the OP told to search.The forum is like an empty library. No camaraderie among the members. No open discussion. Nothing. While I firmly believe that everyone should utilize the search function, it should not be pressed to the point of making the forum a ghost town.

proven
March 18, 2012, 12:50 PM
craigc, i've belonged to forums that were run exactly as you mention, and i agree, they are a drag. i'm not advocating for this forum to be run in that manner. but the mods could once in a while politely urge new members to use the search function for such general questions as this. this isn't the first time someone has asked why so many like the ar platform, and i'm sure it won't be the last. it just feels like it gets beat to death around here. between that and "what ar should i buy for X$", it's gets old.

maybe it's just me. that's fine.

Sam1911
March 18, 2012, 01:14 PM
the mods could once in a while politely urge new members to use the search function for such general questions as this. Believe me, we do. And we merge new threads with duplicate others that are fairly recent.

THR was started after another forum that many of the founding members were participants in decided to shut down and go archive-only as everything that needed to be discussed had been. Nothing new under the sun.

We try to strike a balance. Another "Which autoloader should I buy?" thread is obviously monstrously redundant, but it also doesn't really hurt anything. The threads that get mean/contentious/loud/stupid ("Why do AR's suck?," "Why are ARs the best?," "Glocks RULE!," ".45 vs. 9mm," etc) are usually let to go for a little while and then killed off at the first instance of the inevitable unpleasantness.

proven
March 18, 2012, 01:22 PM
appreciate the response, sam1911.

OP, my apologies for sidetracking your thread.

Gtimothy
March 18, 2012, 01:47 PM
Maybe he likes it because you don't have one! You have a lot of nice guns but maybe he just wanted one that you didn't own. I've let my kids shoot every gun I own and let them decide what they like and don't like. They all LOVE to shoot the ARs because they don't have a lot of recoil and look "Cool" (their words)...Different strokes!

ethicalrelic
March 18, 2012, 01:57 PM
subdude,

My first (and currently only) rifle is a "black rifle." I'm a little older than your son (31). For me, it was a project, something to tinker with, that has really been opening me up to the shooting world. My initial interest did spring from video game and movie iconography, but the lasting thing that has really fixated me on the platform is the ease and accessibility of working on it. Currently, I'm buying a part here or there every payday to put together a 6.8mm upper and to start on an AR-10. In my mind, there is a special kind of accomplishment that comes with taking a pile of metal parts in front you and assembling them into a functional, accurate, and incredibly fun to run weapon system.

Although I'm not military/LE, I believe there's legitimate fun to be had in watching Magpul dvds and practicing reloads, etc, then hitting the range to squander $50 in a minute and half with a system that you put together. Personally, I am eagerly looking forward to attending my first 3 gun match some time this summer- a chance to find some of my weaknesses, but also to run a course with a rifle I built. Not sure if your son is interested in competing or building his own AR, but I believe this kind of adaptability and personalization is pretty appealing to a lot of people, when it comes down to it. Maybe you and your son could get the parts and build one together? It's a project I would love to do with my own father at some point. Best of luck!

happygeek
March 18, 2012, 01:58 PM
http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65973/28814.JPG


Not an AR, but you can get a AK in either .223 or .308 with a conventional wood stock as well.

http://www.classicfirearms.co/russianveprrifles.htm
http://www.classicfirearms.co/images/Vepr-308-super-w-mt.jpg

ethicalrelic
March 18, 2012, 02:33 PM
Sorry, double posted.

SlamFire1
March 18, 2012, 02:37 PM
Avoid the Black Rifle, stay on the path of righteousness, these are the beacons of the one true way.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M1a%20and%20Garand%20Receiver%20Pictures/ReducedNMGarandfulllength.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/M1a%20and%20Garand%20Receiver%20Pictures/ReducedRightSiderifle1.jpg

Cherokee305
March 18, 2012, 09:24 PM
Do this with your mini.

Group at 440 yrds, with my rock river predator pursuit.

http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj542/steierl/43bd803a.jpg
http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj542/steierl/e5b324bc.jpg

The Lone Haranguer
March 18, 2012, 09:37 PM
I don't think there would be any convincing you.
Probably not. :D

There is no accounting for personal taste, OP, but just don't go off Jim Zumbo-style about it and there is no problem.

Sheepdog1968
March 18, 2012, 11:27 PM
Before I could convince you to like the black plastic rifles, I would have to convince you start wearing your baseball cap backwards and to wear your pants low enough so your underwear was showing. In my opinion, you've got a great collection in there is no need to get a black plastic rifle.

The War Wagon
March 18, 2012, 11:44 PM
Here's the deal. My son is infatuated with black rifles. (he's 26) I don't get it. My safe is stocked with Garands, M1 Carbines, Mini 14s, Mosin Nagants, Ruger 77s and the like. Black plastic rifles just don't look like proper firearms to me.

You own firearms based on LOOKS? :confused:

You do know the Armalite Rifle & it's variants, have been the standard U.S. military rifle for 45+ years now, correct?

Other than your highly subjective... "looks"... test, what else about them... specifically... do you find problematic?

Sam1911
March 19, 2012, 02:08 AM
As subdude hasn't responded again since Feb. 8th, let's assume he's happy with his answers and call this one answered. I'm sure we'll have the chance to discuss it again tomorrow. Heck, we're probably already also disucssing this issue in three other threads anyway. ... we usually are. :rolleyes:

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