What is my 30-30 model 94 capable of taking?


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kd7nqb
February 7, 2012, 05:40 PM
As I mentioned in THIS THREAD (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=642093) I recently inherited a pretty nice Winchester Model 94 in 30-30win.

This gun means more to me than just about anything else I own because it came from my father in law. I feel that he would rather see me use it than let it just be a safe queen.

So I know a little about the 30-30 ballistics and the history of the round, seems to be a great round for deer and black bear but I am not really sure what its limits are.

So I am looking for some input on what this gun is really suited for
Assuming these things

I know all rounds are capable of taking T-rex if you hit the brain stem perfectly, so I am not talking about a lucky shot I am talking about a reasonable pacific northwest hunting shot broadside
Lets assume a max range of 150yds or so
I am looking for a one shot drop if not a one shot kill
Most likely using factory ammo in the 150-170 grain range.


Using these parameters I can safely assume that deer is certainly good to hunt with the 30-30 and black bear is also ok

What about Elk? Is this too small for a healthy sized elk?

What about wild hogs? I know these things are notoriously tough but I also know that a lot of hogs get taken with .357mag and the like

Is it safe to assume that cougars and coyotes could also be safely dispatched with the 30-30win?

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snakeman
February 7, 2012, 05:45 PM
Load that sucker up with leverevolution ammo and you should be able to take anything from pronhorn to big pigs and black bear and your range becomes 250 yards instead of 150. Yes you can take cougars and coyotes with it as well as the largest of hogs. Elk shouldn't be problem either as long as the shot isn't much over 100 yards. Hornady also has a leverevolution load that has a similar design to the gmx line. The extra penetration from this load could come in handy.

Kosh75287
February 7, 2012, 05:53 PM
A 170 grain bullet @ 2200 f/s stays within an 8" bull'seye from 0 to about 175 yards, if the .30-30 is zeroed to "on" at 150 yards. Limit your game to whitetail and black bear, and you should be fine at these ranges. As the game gets larger, the range must get smaller. If the weight of the game doubles, cut your maximum range by a factor of three. And practice assiduously to put 4 of 5 shots inside an 8" circle at 175 yards. Few can do it. Those who can are capable of doing anything the rifle can do.

calaverasslim
February 7, 2012, 06:19 PM
Not sure where you are but here in S. TX. it will take anything we have. I wouldn't hesitate to try a mule deer if the situation was favorable.

Go for it.

Art Eatman
February 7, 2012, 06:36 PM
If you get "all married up" with it from practice (both live fire and dry fire) and are halfway-picky about your shots, it will kill most whatever you're likely to find in your area.

I've always figured that the outer limit, generally, is the distance at which you can hit the end of a beer can when shooting from a field rest position. Rifle (with or without scope), shotgun with a slug, or a handgun. Seems to me to be a fair rule of thumb...

336A
February 7, 2012, 06:38 PM
Just be sure that you use ammo that the rifle likes and stay within the confines of the rifles and your limits. This little snipit should give you a good idea of what is possible with the great .30WCF:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xZsgwPlLM0

Geno
February 7, 2012, 06:58 PM
I personally witnessed a young man (about 12 years old) take a nice Russian boar with his M94 .30-30 Win. The bullet was found under the hide on the far side. The husky, young man was as-tough-as a tank, dragging that dead critter all by himself over to his father.

The night before, the father and father's friend repeatedly called him "Little Man". It rubbed me the wrong way, but I bit my tongue. As the shootist dragged the trophy over to his father, the father and his friend tried to drag it. <<snicker>> Let's say they might better have let his husky son finish the job.

Then, and there, I observed, "Little Man?! Are you kidding?! What kinda name is that of him?! You see the way that man dragged that boar alone, and it took you two to do it?! Seems to me he deserves a man's nickname. Seems to me TANK would be fitting" The father and his friend were thrilled to say the least. "Little Man" became "Tank".

Hades yes, a .30-30 Win can do a good job. So can a 12-year-old Tank. :)

Geno

MCgunner
February 7, 2012, 07:45 PM
With any 150 to 170 grain loads, it's ideal for hogs. Hogs are a heavy brush affair down here.

MCgunner
February 7, 2012, 07:48 PM
Not sure where you are but here in S. TX. it will take anything we have. I wouldn't hesitate to try a mule deer if the situation was favorable.

Weeeell, except maybe Nilgai on the King or Kenedy. I'd want more for those things.

H&Hhunter
February 7, 2012, 08:20 PM
Mule deer all day everyday not even a hesitation. Elk is the same, stick a 170 gr or even a 150 gr bullet through the ribs of an elk and you'll have a nothing more than a big packing job on your hands. I'd limit my shots on elk to about a 150 yards or so.

A 150 gr Sierra flat point at 2200 FPS will give full broadside penetration on a big cow elk and stop under the offside hide. I've seen it done on two occasions now. The last one went about 60 yards and laid down. The other went about 400 yards but she was hit a bit back. And she left a four star blood trail.

Limit your range and the ole .30-30 is plenty of medicine for wapiti.

rcmodel
February 7, 2012, 08:42 PM
+1
Elk on down, no problem.

Your range is limited by the iron sights.
If you can keep all your shots on a 9" paper plate, at that range, you are good to go.

For most people, that will be inside 150 yards.
Probably more like 100 unless you practice enough to extend it.

I am looking for a one shot dropNo rifle caliber kills that way every time, or seldom ever, unless you hit the spine or brain.

A shot through the heart/lung area on anything will result in a dead animal within 50-150 yards of where it was shot. Doesn't matter what it is.

Just follow the blood trail and you will fine it piled up when it ran out of oxygen in the brain and realized it was dead on it's feet.

rc

snakeman
February 7, 2012, 08:45 PM
336A THAT IS FREAKIN' SWEET!!! 30/30 is one of my all time favorite rounds but I always wondered about its ability to cleanly take anything bigger than a large pig. Now I have no doubts. I've taken a few deer with the 30/30 and they were all drt

hardluk1
February 8, 2012, 09:21 AM
It will kill anything in north america given you place your shots well and stay with in your 150 yards.

Art Eatman
February 8, 2012, 09:39 AM
Factory sights on the 94 are more of a limiting factor than the performance of the .30-30 cartridge. The tang-mounted peep sight adds 50 to 100 yards to "hittability".

303tom
February 8, 2012, 10:31 AM
As I mentioned in THIS THREAD (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=642093) I recently inherited a pretty nice Winchester Model 94 in 30-30win.

This gun means more to me than just about anything else I own because it came from my father in law. I feel that he would rather see me use it than let it just be a safe queen.

So I know a little about the 30-30 ballistics and the history of the round, seems to be a great round for deer and black bear but I am not really sure what its limits are.

So I am looking for some input on what this gun is really suited for
Assuming these things

I know all rounds are capable of taking T-rex if you hit the brain stem perfectly, so I am not talking about a lucky shot I am talking about a reasonable pacific northwest hunting shot broadside
Lets assume a max range of 150yds or so
I am looking for a one shot drop if not a one shot kill
Most likely using factory ammo in the 150-170 grain range.


Using these parameters I can safely assume that deer is certainly good to hunt with the 30-30 and black bear is also ok

What about Elk? Is this too small for a healthy sized elk?

What about wild hogs? I know these things are notoriously tough but I also know that a lot of hogs get taken with .357mag and the like

Is it safe to assume that cougars and coyotes could also be safely dispatched with the 30-30win?
This guy has even taken Brown Bear with the .30-30.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6xZsgwPlLM0

MCgunner
February 8, 2012, 10:38 AM
I knew an old fellow in our gun club that, after his service in WW2, had been an Indian agent in Alaska. He said, up there in the late 40s, the natives used .30-30 for everything including big bear and that they made many bear kills with the ol' 94. He said he had a .300 H&H to take on a bear hunt with them and they thought the cannon was funny. :D THAT, however, doesn't mean I'd chose it for a brown bear hunt.

snakeman
February 8, 2012, 10:46 AM
^^^^right but the moose hunt video is pretty darn cool. I would rather have something different for something like that as well but it would still have a lever under it.

MCgunner
February 8, 2012, 10:55 AM
Partial to bolt guns, myself. I own one lever gun, a 92 Rossi, which is cool, but my bolt guns shoot 1/2 MOA to 1 MOA and that gives me confidence. To each his own. I've never really desired a 94 or a Marlin in .30-30. I used to shoot a Savage M340 (bolt gun) in the caliber and I have a 12" contender pistol in the caliber that has taken 5 deer. .30-30 is a fantastic pistol round. :D

grubbylabs
February 8, 2012, 11:01 AM
I would wager that the 30-30 has taken more game than any two cartridges combined. for many years that was the go to round for N. American hunting. If you stay within a 100 yards and use a quality bullet you can take any thing on the continent.

Good luck with you new rifle.

MCgunner
February 8, 2012, 11:48 AM
I would wager that the 30-30 has taken more game than any two cartridges combined. for many years that was the go to round for N. American hunting. If you stay within a 100 yards and use a quality bullet you can take any thing on the continent.

Myself, if I took that wager, I'd put my money on the .22LR, that is, if we're eliminating shotguns. :D

Yeah, when I was a kid, the thuddy thuddy was the quintessential "deer rifle". But, all my grandpa's hunting buddys used bolt guns in other calibers. My uncle had several game rifles, too, only one was a lever gun, a Savage 99 in .300 Savage. He was partial to his pre-64 Winchester M70 featherweight in .308 Winchester. I just wasn't brought up in the ".30-30 culture", I guess. I've always respected the old horse for deer hunting and utility, though. For a long time, .30-30 was the cheapest factory ammo on the rack, probably attracted a lot of folks. I was broke in on handloading at age 10, though. I can count the number of deer I've shot with a factory load on one hand, out of the dozens of deer and hogs over a lifetime.

wyohome
February 8, 2012, 12:01 PM
The round is fine as is the rifle for what lives around there. I used to hunt near there, Lake Kapowsin/Electron area and something with low power optics would have been helpful in the brush. I was muzzleloading elk and Wash regs said no scopes back then.

CoRoMo
February 8, 2012, 12:05 PM
What everyone has said.

The first two elk that I ever killed were shot with a '94 30-30 160gr LEVERevolution. The bullets broke through the first shoulder and did quite a number on the vitals, but that's as far as it'd go. Won't punch through both shoulders like the .270s I've been hunting with ever since, but dead is dead.

grubbylabs
February 8, 2012, 12:56 PM
Myself, if I took that wager, I'd put my money on the .22LR, that is, if we're eliminating shotguns.

Alright you got me on that, but I was not thinking about small game, and you are right I would think. I would bet that more than can be counted has been taken with a 22, and even some that should not have been taken. I have hers several stories of family member of long ago who have taken deer and what not with a 22.

bison
February 8, 2012, 02:16 PM
It really helps to put a drop of white paint on the front sight if you have open sights on your rifle. It really helps the contrast and thus your aim, particularly if you're aiming at a black pig in the brush at dusk.

tahunua001
February 8, 2012, 03:00 PM
for elk if you can get it in within 100 yards I would be willing to wager that you could get a decent sized cow. big ole bulls might need a little extra power.

theicemanmpls
February 8, 2012, 03:11 PM
I am sure that 30/30 will take almost all north American game. It is a bit small for the large bears and moose. I shot a doe with my 14" T/C contender 30/30 at 50 yards. She was DRT!.

If I were going to spend the money to go out west on a Elk Hunt, I probably would find at least a .308 or .270 with satisfactory glass. If I am going to all the $$trouble$$ I want a little more gun. Elks are big animals.

Sheepdog1968
February 8, 2012, 06:29 PM
I take my 30-30 out for hogs, deer, black bear.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
February 8, 2012, 06:52 PM
I am sure that 30/30 will take almost all north American game. It is a bit small for the large bears and moose. I shot a doe with my 14" T/C contender 30/30 at 50 yards. She was DRT!.

Don't know why you would think that. Eskimos and Canadians have been killing Brown Bears, Moose, Elk, and Caribou with the .30/30 ever since it was introduced. They still do. Now granted, for a defense round for a Brown Bear charging me, I would want more, but for hunting at reasonable ranges in heavy cover, there is nothing much better than the old Lever .30/30

saturno_v
February 8, 2012, 08:38 PM
To the OP:

What is the barrel length of your Win 94?? 20" or 24"?? With the increased velocity of the 24" pipe and the Hornady leveraction loads, your Win 94 would get almost in 308 Win territory....

TexasPatriot.308
February 8, 2012, 11:23 PM
back in the 50s, 60s before bolt action scoped rifles took over, almost everyone huntd with model 94s in 30-30. what has changed? commericialzation. the 30-30 kills almost anything in North America.

H&Hhunter
February 8, 2012, 11:45 PM
This has even taken Brown Bear with the .30-30.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=6xZsgwPlLM0

You don't see big bull moose drop much faster than that! WOW that was an impressive kill I love to see these senior citizen rounds still taking care of business 100+ years later. That was COOL thanks for posting it.

hardluk1
February 9, 2012, 08:47 AM
It's amassing how some people think some older under powerd by todays standards cartridge can do the job when in its day it was a new high powerd cartridge and a must have .

MCgunner
February 9, 2012, 09:40 AM
Well, the old thuddy thuddy has done a lot of things since it was invented, killed a lot of game, but I ain't tradin' my .308 M7 for one. They're still useful, but let's get real here. :D If it's all I had, i'd be shootin' hogs and deer with it, though. They never stopped working on medium game.

theicemanmpls
February 9, 2012, 09:48 AM
Without a doubt the 30/30 will kill any animal on the planet. I need to point out there are better choices of caliber.

I see nothing wrong with the 30/30 for any deer, or black bear. What gets iffy is when the animals get bigger, and the distances get further.

I am sure the 30/30 will take down any of the brown, and even white bears if all the circumstances are in your favor. But, these are huge carnivores. Do you really want a 30/30 when Mr grizzly is yards away? Has anyone noticed what people in brown bear country bring for security? A 12ga with slugs, or a heavy caliber rifle, or pistol. This is in addition to noise makers, to shoo the bruin away.

Regarding Elk, that is a big animal. I am well aware people used to hunt them with 30/30's or lesser cartridges, now and back in the day. Yes, up close, this will work. However, there is the Elk. They deserve a quick death. Not one where you have to pump five rounds while he is walking away.

I will not take a shot at a deer unless i am absolutely positive it will be a killing shot. I have tracked deer that others have shot while running. What a sad mess.

Trips out west for elk cost money. They should be full of good, positive memories. I say bring enough gun, unless you are positive all your shots will be under 100 yards.

MCgunner
February 9, 2012, 12:04 PM
People shoot elk with sticks and strings and muzzle loading flinters. But, yeah, I'd use my 7 mag if I ever could get a hunt for one.

One problem with elk I have is what to do with the mount? I have 8 ft ceilings. I'd have to mount the thing on the floor. :D

hardluk1
February 9, 2012, 04:14 PM
Its all about what you own for a firearm and will it do the job not allways what you can run out and spend money on to buy. Not everone has that freedom to pick and choose the most popular caliber of choice.

The question was - Will the 30-30 in a model 94 work. Yes.

jmr40
February 9, 2012, 08:30 PM
A 30-30, 308, 30-06, or 300 magnum all shoot the same caliber bullets, and with similar bullet weights. What one will do, the other will do, just at closer ranges.

Just for comparison a 30-30 with 150 gr bullets is still traveling around 1950 fps at 100 yards. Probably enough for elk. Any of the other rounds shooting a 150 gr bullet traveling at the same speed would have a simlar effect on elk. The difference is really how far away they are effective. A 308 would still have roughly the same velocity at 350 yards, a 30-06 at around 400 and one of the 300 mags at 500 yards.

If a 30-06 is a 400 yard elk gun I see no reason a 30-30 isn't a 100 yard elk gun as long as the hunter understands the range limitations.

paintballdude902
February 9, 2012, 09:16 PM
in the 19th century people hunted elk to near extinction with the .30-30. i dont feel outgunned on anything elk/black bear. now is it the ideal weapon? no but if i was in a pinch i would use it.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
February 9, 2012, 10:27 PM
in the 19th century people hunted elk to near extinction with the .30-30. i dont feel outgunned on anything elk/black bear. now is it the ideal weapon? no but if i was in a pinch i would use it.

It's an ideal rifle within it's range limitations as is anything else. Just some have longer limitations than others. Out to 150 yards, I would feel very comfortable (and have done so MANY times) with a .30/30 Elk hunting. I especially love it if I am hunting high country if the rifle season came in while the weather was unseasonably warm and the Elk were still up in the trees. You basically need the longer range rifles after they have come down from the highlands to the fields. I'd be willing to match up the .30/30's performance record against ANY other cartridge's. The main reason for all these "magic" magnums is for the people that are lacking in woodsmanship and are unable to close the distance. The main thing that attracts me to archery is the same thing that attracts me to shorter range rifle hunting. It makes me a better hunter. I feel much better when I track into archery range of a monster bull than I would spotting one 700 yards off, getting to 400 yards and sending a bullet. I meat hunt, but it's still about the challenge for me. I just don't see the challenge of long range "shooting" Elk.

BP Hunter
February 14, 2012, 02:02 PM
Nicely said Freedom Fighter. Many calibers have taught hunters to be "snipers" killing animals at long distances. I personally like to give our harvests a "chance". That's why I have deciced to keep my Marlin 336 as my main hunting rifle. I should get close enough to make a humane kill.

razorback2003
February 14, 2012, 07:25 PM
People hunt elk with bows and crossbows. That has a lot less energy than a 30-30. You should be fine with that new hornady ammo on just about anything except dangerous bears if you are a reasonable distance.

Sheepdog1968
February 14, 2012, 07:46 PM
FWIW, with the Hornady LeverEvolution ammo (all I use in my 30-30), if you zero at 200 yards, your POA/POI will be +/- 3" about to about 225 yards if not a bit further. At 300 yards the drop is something like 12" if I recall correctly (the other number that comes to mind is 8"). I'm not suggesting you shoot that far by the way.

MCgunner
February 15, 2012, 10:20 AM
Nicely said Freedom Fighter. Many calibers have taught hunters to be "snipers" killing animals at long distances. I personally like to give our harvests a "chance". That's why I have deciced to keep my Marlin 336 as my main hunting rifle. I should get close enough to make a humane kill.

If you REALLY want to "give 'em a chance" as you say, you'd put away your firearms and hunt with a bow or crossbow. There are degrees of "giving them a chance". Me, I've not hunted with my bows, just love to shoot 'em. I've been hunting with handguns a lot and now am all in to black powder, but really, it's because I ain't gonna get a shot where my place is beyond 150 yards anyway, and probably not beyond 100. I fully intend to use my hawken if and when I go back to New Mexico, though, because the BP season is much longer and earlier, before the snows. It'll be tough getting close, but a .30-30 is cheating. Snipers use .30-30s. :D

hardluk1
February 15, 2012, 11:02 AM
MCgunner You guys don't have a bow only season?? Being a handgun hunter bow hunting would be a natural if you hunt where that is the only option.. I well place broad head is a very quick killer since very little to no sound is there to spook a deer. Some will jump a step or two and spin around not knowing what happened to fall over and be done or run a 25 yards and lay down and die. Like fireams hunting, just take the best chance at a kill only let the bad shots walk on and it tends to work very well. Best chance for a quality animal is during bow season where they have a bow season most times, before the good ones turn into night feeders.

MCgunner
February 15, 2012, 11:13 AM
MCgunner You guys don't have a bow only season?? Being a handgun hunter bow hunting would be a natural if you hunt where that is the only option.. I well place broad head is a very quick killer since very little to no sound is there to spook a deer.

In the words of Ron White (slightly modified) concerning bow season in coastal south Texas...."It's 110 degrees outside, the skeeters are thick as fireants on a dead cat, and...I don't wanna go." Besides, I'm dove hunting during bow season and THAT is FAR more important than deer hunting to me. Deer hunting is something I do when I don't wanna get up early enough to go duck hunting. :D It's like baseball (deer hunting) vs basketball (wing shooting). I prefer the constant action to waiting on stand 200 hours for every shot fired. :rolleyes: Most of my freezer meat comes from my hog trap, to be honest.

hardluk1
February 16, 2012, 08:53 AM
haha Ron whites funny. I don't miss the hotter than heck weather or the darn skitters. I grew up in S. FL. but we hunted something darn near year round. Did some guail and dove, few ducks too back then. Enjoy hunting no matter what season.

T.R.
February 16, 2012, 04:49 PM
30-30 170 gr bullets are famous for straight line deep pentration. It's medium velocity bullet crashes through bone and cartiledge and keeps on going without changing direction. A broadside shot into the chest organs is always a good choice.

The fast cycling leverguns can shoot multiple shots within mere seconds. Two or more well placed 170 grainers into the chest organs of any creature spells death.

TR

Kachok
February 19, 2012, 12:00 PM
People think of killing power on the wrong context. While light/fast explosive expansion bullets make for impressive kills on deer, it is the penatration that makes a bullet lethal on larger game, and the 170gr controled expansion bullets the 30-30 uses penatrate very well. The same is true of the 7x57 and 6.5x55 they are highly effective game getters despite their lackluster energy figures because they just keep going. Sure they are not the "ideal" for larger game but in a pinch I would not hesetate for a second to put a 170gr Partition through an elk, many a trophy bull have fallen to that same bullet over the years.
Now I am not about to bring a 30-30 on a grizley hunt or my 6.5x55 for polor bear protection, but both have been done many times before. I do have more powerful rifles just for such tasks.

borrowedtime69
February 19, 2012, 12:15 PM
One thing to keep in mind is the game regulations of your state. Here in CO, you must have a certain ft/lbs at 100 yards for deer, antelope, and black bear, and a higher ft/lbs at 100 yards for elk.

Where i would be ok with the 30/30 for all these (would NOT go after grizz with one!) you have to check with state law.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
February 19, 2012, 01:40 PM
Standard loaded 150gr and above .30/30 would meet and exceed any states energy requirement for Elk. I've hunted every state with huntable Elk population (except Kentucky) and most all of them I packed a .30/30 Marlin for a back up gun at least and as a primary for several hunts.

T.R.
February 20, 2012, 08:29 AM
30-30 is widely known for its straight line penetration. Bones are no match for the 170 grain round nose bullet. This is a common factor with many medium velocity hunting cartridges.

Elk and moose are taken each and every year by hunters armed with 30-30 carbines. Since lever action rifles are fast handling repeaters, I suggest keep shooting into the chest organs until the animal topples. But the first shot is ALWAYS the most important.

Nope, not me in this picture. This photo was sent by a friend in Idaho.

TR

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/bullelkWinchester.jpg

Kachok
February 20, 2012, 10:41 PM
Disproportinate killing ability is almost always a result of spectacular penatration, the tougher 170gr 30-30 bulletes do this very well, not as well as the 7x57 or 6.5x55 but certainly well enough for trophy elk which is good enough for me :)

MCgunner
February 21, 2012, 11:30 PM
OTOH, flat nose and round nose .30-30 bullets open up very reliably and leave a nice wound channel. The round and flat nose meplats tend to be more reliable at expansion than are many spitzers. This is especially so in guns with low muzzle velocity.

Kachok
February 22, 2012, 12:42 AM
Would not say that, I never had a Ballistic Tip fail to expand, but there is alot of truth to the RN and FN soft points hitting harder, that has been tested over and over again, less aerodynamic=more disruptive on contact. Now some would say that it is better to go in clean and minimize energy loss through the hide, but RN-FN have proven highly effective for so long I won't get too far into that debate.

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