Run in with the cops today...


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thefitzvh
February 9, 2004, 08:19 PM
Please be advised... I'm not starting a cop-bashing thread, and if it gets that way, the mods will close it... so let's not go there please.

Was at school today (CSU San Marcos) and walking to my car. From a distance I see 2 campus police standing next to my car. One has a slim jim, looking as if he's about ready to jack into it.

Me: Can I help you with something, officers?

Officer 1: This your car?

Me. Uh... yeah. What's with the slim jim?

Officer 1: You mind if we search your car?

Me: Well, it didn't look like you were about to ask a minute ago, why are you asking me now?

Officer 2: Don't be smart. Can we take a look.

Me: If you have to ask, then it means you don't have a reason. So no, you cannot. What's this about anyways?

Officer 1: You have ammo in your car

:banghead:

I left two boxes of CCI blazer and a WWB in the back seat... range trip leftovers from yesterday.

I told them the mistake, and they said "What do you need all that ammo for"

I debated saying that 200 rounds was nowhere NEAR what I wish I had, but decided against it. I settled for: "I like to shoot"

At this point, I was a little weirded, and since they didn't have anything on me, I said "OK Guys... well, you all have a nice day."

Officer 1: Stay out of trouble, you hear?

Me: Uh... whatever.



Comments?

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Azrael256
February 9, 2004, 08:22 PM
Slim jim in hand, and they were asking to search, not demanding based on probable cause? Sounds like you need to have a chat with the campus chief about an attemped break-in.

cool45auto
February 9, 2004, 08:26 PM
I call BS! They were already out there with a slimjim so apparantly they were'nt worried about finding the owner.:cuss:

QuickDraw
February 9, 2004, 08:27 PM
Officer 1: Stay out of trouble, you hear?

Thats a good one!!:D

Is it legal for them to break into your car because you have a couple of boxes of ammo??
Obviously you scared one of the sheep, who reported you to the Big Bad Wolf!

QuickDraw

zahc
February 9, 2004, 08:27 PM
what he said.

Orthonym
February 9, 2004, 08:36 PM
Burglar with badge; police uniform has always been optimum perfect disguise for criminals.

Amish_Bill
February 9, 2004, 08:44 PM
Definitely deserving of a letter to the school's head honchos CCd to the campus cops and maybe any local papers that aren't totally left wing.

Give the details as you saw them, then:

Ask under what policy, regulation or rule were the campus cops acting as they prepared to break into your car.

Ask what other legal items might act as an invitation for the campus police to break & enter in the future.

Ask if anyone can break into cars parked on campus with visible ammunition or if that's a perk reserved for the campus administration.

If they were not acting on valid regulations, ask how to file a complaint against them.

tc300mag1
February 9, 2004, 08:45 PM
They probley were trying to steal you ammo so they could go shoot ..I would go in and complain to the chief

WonderNine
February 9, 2004, 08:49 PM
thefitzvh: I'm afraid I would not have handled rent-a-cops attempting to break into my car as calmly as you did. Good going.

Jeff White
February 9, 2004, 08:50 PM
Make an appointment and go see the chief. If they were in fact about to break into your car, they have no business with badges.

Jeff

Amish_Bill
February 9, 2004, 08:56 PM
How big a stink do you want to make? Having a talk with the cheif is good... IF you just want to handle this low-key. very, very low key.

Making an appointment to talk with the school's head honco AND the cheif will apply some pressure, but it's still fairly low key. Serious, but not a really hard push.

File a formal, written complaint with the school if you want to push hard. Formal complaints have to be recorded somewhere, and are usually public record or reportable items.

To really whack them about the head and neck, use bad PR.

Personally, I'd go no lower than a formal complaint. But then again, I'm a cranky 'ol bastage.

ny32182
February 9, 2004, 09:00 PM
At my school, you would have been arrested and charged with serious offenses unless the boxes were empty, believe it or not.:banghead:

As some other college students here can attest, you don't really have rights as a student. They own you if you are standing on campus property.

Frohickey
February 9, 2004, 09:04 PM
I think that you should make a big stink about this. Get it written up in the school paper and what other local paper you could get in on.

LiquidTension
February 9, 2004, 09:05 PM
ttbadboy - good thing I never left ammo on my seat when I was at Clemson. REAL good thing they never found my SKS in my closet in McCabe!

tiberius
February 9, 2004, 09:12 PM
thefitzvh: I'm afraid I would not have handled rent-a-cops attempting to break into my car as calmly as you did. Good going.

At the two universities I attended they were real cops so I would still treat them with respect. ....probably not the top graduates from the police academy though. :)

Frankly they sound like idiots to me. Apparently there is no prohibition against having ammo or they would have at least confiscated it. I wouldn’t expect any results but you should definitely report them to the administration.

Amish_Bill
February 9, 2004, 09:13 PM
At my school, you would have been arrested and charged with serious offenses unless the boxes were empty, believe it or not. Beyond the self-imposed punishment for allowing yourself to be out of ammo, what kind of "serious offenses" are you talking about?

ny32182
February 9, 2004, 09:21 PM
LT, lol... yeah, REALLY good thing they didn't find an SKS in your closet at McCabe. When I was a freshman, I lived in Johnstone E (since demolished) that was right across from McCabe. I didn't have any guns there, because we had mandatory "room inspections" (searches) performed by the RA from time to time. We were cool enough with our RA that he would overlook contraband Bud Light, but I've no doubt he would have reported a firearm, and my college career would have come to an end immediately, and maybe worse. I am under the impression that its a felony to posess a firearm (maybe or maybe not ammo as well, I'm not going to say I'm 100% sure about that) on any school grounds in SC. Needless to say I moved off campus sophmore year and never looked back.

I do have one brazen PRTM buddy that rides around campus with an M96 Recon and a SA-M7 behind the seat of his truck most of the time. I sure hope his car never gets searched...

nico
February 9, 2004, 10:28 PM
thefitzvh I definitley think I wouldn't have been as friendly or joking as you were. IMO, it would have been hillarious if you had called 911 and said two guys were breaking into your car. That would have almost definitely gotten into the school newspaper. I never really thought about it, but I rode around with half a case of shotgun shells in my trunk for a good chunk of last spring semester (forgot they were in there after going trap shooting one day) and I've had an issue of Guns & Ammo in plain view on my back seat for at least a week. I'll have to be more careful from now on. And I would definitely file a formal complaint.

Steve in PA
February 9, 2004, 10:30 PM
Campus police you say? Hmmph :rolleyes:

minnesota oldie
February 9, 2004, 10:48 PM
Look before you leap. Some states and schools have laws against firearms on school grounds. The cops saw ammo and thought guns. Check local laws or rules before you make a big stink. It could rub off on you.

Standing Wolf
February 9, 2004, 10:53 PM
I'd say you need to go directly to whoever's in charge of your campus police, and if you don't get at least a written apology from the officers immediately, you need to escalate.

Just because you're a student doesn't mean you don't have civil rights.

greg700
February 9, 2004, 10:54 PM
Here in NC, I believe it is a felony to bring ammunition onto campus.

With that in mind, I would have sucked up big time. If I were on a virginia campus, where it is not illegal, I would have reported an attempted break in.

Andrew Rothman
February 9, 2004, 10:59 PM
Just because you're a student doesn't mean you don't have civil rights.

Boy, have you been out of school for a while. :(

4v50 Gary
February 9, 2004, 11:21 PM
Per se having ammo in the car is not illegal but a police officer acting without authority is. Unless the car was parked on campus and the campus has a "no gun, no ammo" rule, he had no right to try to slim jim the car to search it. Sounds like an IA beef if you want.

BTW, I slimmed jim a city car once that had the keys left in the ignition. I then left a note advising the driver to bring City ID and show it to a clerk in an adjacent city building. In this case, there is implied consent by the City since the City doesn't want its cars stolen and would rather have one of its officers secure it.

BTW, ammo should be kept out of sight. You want someone to break into the car to look for a gun? Even if it's not there, most auto-burglars use rocks so for $100 for a new window, is it worth it?

NavajoNPaleFace
February 9, 2004, 11:24 PM
Campus police right or wrong makes no issue of argument.

The Fitzvh never mentioned what state this occurred in but for those advising the issue be taken up with the Chief, etc. might be adding a lot of fuel that isn't wanted.

There are a lot of states out there that say that if you take firearms or ammo on a state funded campus (whether it be college, high school, grade school, whatever) you're likely to graduate to crowbar hotel status before you graduate anything else.

First of all I dang sure wouldn't have allowed ammo in my vehicle with a "welcome' or 'notice me big time' sign on it. There's no reason the ammo couldn't have been placed under the seat, in the trunk (if it's not a truck), etc. You put something like ammo in plain sight you're inviting problems.

Some good ol' common sense needs to be employed at times.

Mike Irwin
February 9, 2004, 11:26 PM
"Why do you have all that ammo?"

"It's been my dream to one day make the US Olympic team, so I practice whenever I can."

I used that one once. The person (not a cop) didn't know what to say.

confed sailor
February 9, 2004, 11:39 PM
Here in sunny Charleston SC for a cadet to have a gun he must go to the public Safety office and register the weapon and/or ammo with the glorified, gun totin' meter maids we call campus police. then, with a police escort, we take the registered weapons and such over to the armory, where they sit and get played with and dry fired by bored master sergeants.

to get these guns back you have to go through the process in reverse.

now granted we have a damn M14 in our rooms, sans firing pin, but thats a 5 min fix.

its frustrating esp trying to keep a musket around for reenacting.


and to ttbadboy, and liquidtension

when my daddy went to clemson (1971) not only did they have their M14's he had a pistol, two rifles and two shotguns. sophomore christmas, he topped a fir with his .308 and got the christmas tree, (ah yes tree hunting)

hell of a note aint it

4v50 Gary
February 9, 2004, 11:43 PM
Gotta find a cadet who will swap a Polytech for a forged M-14. Honest, I'll cut off the full auto shaft. But first, who's got a Polytech cheap? ;)

The campus cops at the Citadel are fully sworn peace officers. I managed to get a patch for a buddy of mine when I was there. The library was terrific too. Too bad I missed out on Friday's Parade of Cadets. :(

thefitzvh
February 9, 2004, 11:45 PM
"First of all I dang sure wouldn't have allowed ammo in my vehicle with a "welcome' or 'notice me big time' sign on it. There's no reason the ammo couldn't have been placed under the seat, in the trunk (if it's not a truck), etc. You put something like ammo in plain sight you're inviting problems.

Some good ol' common sense needs to be employed at times."


Yes... heaven forbid I should have items that are perfectly legal to own in plain sight...
:rolleyes:

I already said, I FORGOT it was there.

I was on a dirt parking lot that the campus is using for overflow parking. It's being loaned to the school by the city. It's not even their property.

Not to mention the fact that they were about to conduct an illegal search...


But I guess it's ok, since they were just trying to keep us all safe . :barf:

thefitzvh
February 9, 2004, 11:51 PM
Update:


Talked to the cop. He called me to ask me if anyone would play a prank on me for some reason.

Apparently Someone called them and told them of a car with "explosives" in it... Given the school I go to, and the inordinate amount of Liberal Studies and Womens Studies majors, I'd say that's not a stretch. They got there, saw nothing but ammo... toyed with the idea of busting in, and that's about when I showed up. I suppose it would have been legal if they got the info about explosives, although I don't know if I would have had any recourse about the damages.

He said he was sorry, and that if I'd like, I can come make a complaint. I said it wasn't necessary. Far as I'm concerned, if ya come clean and apologize, no harm, no foul.

He also advised me to leave the ammo under the seat as well, so that no one steals it. LOL. Didn't say anything about not being able to have it.

I'm still a little miffed about the slim jim thing, but I guess I understand b/c of the call they got. I don't know if I would react the same or not.

At least he had the balls to apologize. Kudos to him.


Thanks for the info guys. Not sure yet if i'm gonna call the chief. On the one hand, I want to make sure the campus police don't just go around busting into peoples cars. On the other hand, I think the guy felt bad, and I don't think he needs his balls busted any... I don't know. What do you all think?


James

confed sailor
February 9, 2004, 11:53 PM
Welllllllllllllllllllll stealing a '14 is a Federal Offense, so i think ill pass.

AS for our Campus police, i know they are SCDPS,
im just describing how they act.

Hkmp5sd
February 10, 2004, 12:00 AM
"What do you need all that ammo for"
That's amusing. A few years back, my alarm system went off and my wife met the deputy sheriff at the house. She asked him to go ahead and clear the house. She had opened the garage door and the deputy saw my reloading bench, supplies and a few thousand empty brass in plastic bags. He asked my wife if there were any guns in the house. Duh.

He decided he didn't want to enter by himself, so he called for backup. When the backup arrived, 6 deputies entered the house only to find nothing wrong. During the process of clearing the house, they opened the closet where I store my ammo. At the time, there was around 15,000 rounds of assorted calibers.

Did the deputies freak and want to know why I had all that ammunition? NOPE. One deputy commented that if they ever ran out of bullets, they knew where to come to borrow some more.

Andrew Rothman
February 10, 2004, 12:01 AM
Apparently Someone called them and told them of a car with "explosives" in it...

Suuuuuuure they did.

Ex-post-facto posterior covering. Surely they wouldn't mind playing the 911 call for you?

Amish_Bill
February 10, 2004, 12:05 AM
Sorry guy - I doubt the campus cops have a full blown 911 dispatch. Probably just a bored desk jockey & a 5 line phone.

kbr80
February 10, 2004, 12:15 AM
Burglar with badge; police uniform has always been optimum perfect disguise for criminals.


Can we all say: "the "POLICE STATE" is here, and has been here for a while."

JitsuGuy
February 10, 2004, 12:21 AM
kbr80 has caught the correct.

J

ny32182
February 10, 2004, 12:51 AM
The "campus cops" at Clemson are full blown, 100% real police officers, and I know for a fact that they have jurisdiction not only all over Clemson, but in all the neighboring towns as well. I've heard they have statewide jurisdiction just like a State Trooper. Not sure if thats true.

If you were not actually on campus though, it wouldn't be illegal to have ammo in your car. At least, thats how it is here. Still, I don't see what positives could come from pitching a fit. Doing so would likely make you a marked man and nothing else, unless you are going to spend tens of thousands of dollars sueing them in court.

They know you are a college student, most likely broke, and probably can't fight back. Welcome to college. Myself and one of my current roommates have been decently harrassed (for totally different reasons, and before we lived together) by Clemson cops, outside of Clemson city limits.

You won't get any respect until they think you might have the money to put them in a world of hurt if they step too far out of line, plain and simple. Just think of it as motivation to graduate.

Just because you're a student doesn't mean you don't have civil rights.

The Constitution/BOR of the United States DOES NOT APPLY on school grounds. Period. Its very unfortunate, but its the sad truth. :(

Confed Sailor, the process for owning a gun while on campus here is very, very similar to what you described. Yes, things have definitely changed.

Please don't extrapolate any of this to assume I have no respect for cops. I certainly do respect them, and the job they do, and I appreciate it. But you know what they say absolute power does to people. Cops are just people, like anyone else. No more, no less.

Zundfolge
February 10, 2004, 12:53 AM
Apparently Someone called them and told them of a car with "explosives" in it...

Suuuuuuure they did.

Ex-post-facto posterior covering. Surely they wouldn't mind playing the 911 call for you?
I agree ... had someone called and told them of a car with "explosives" in it your rent-a-cops wouldn't have been anywhere near it ... it would have been the local PD's bomb squad ... maybe even SWAT ... and your rent-a-cop buddies would be WAY far away diverting traffic.

Bill Hook
February 10, 2004, 01:03 AM
Let's not forget another reason not to make too much stink, which is things could happen to your car - bad things and nobody ain't seen nuttin'.

4v50 Gary
February 10, 2004, 01:09 AM
confed sailor: Rest assured confed sailor that I would not conspire to appropriate illegally Fed. property. In my younger days, I had access to a safe full of M-14s. Anyway, why bother with an M-14 when you have that M-4 Sherman to ride around in? You won't even need a working cannon as you simply overrun or knock down anything in your way. :D

theFitzvh - glad the cops were classy enough to call & apologize. That shows some smartz on their part and avoids an IA beef too.

Kilrain
February 10, 2004, 01:12 AM
Although I don't agree with it, it is the law in the California:

California Penal Code Section 12316(c):

"Unless it is with the written permission of the school
district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school
authority, no person shall carry ammunition or reloaded ammunition
onto school grounds, except sworn law enforcement officers acting
within the scope of their duties or persons exempted under
subparagraph (A) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section
12027. This subdivision shall not apply to a duly appointed peace
officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of
Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or
the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in
California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in
making an arrest or preserving the peace while he or she is actually
engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of
this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance
of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the
firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of
Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or an armored vehicle guard, who is
engaged in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in
subdivision (e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.
A violation of this subdivision is punishable by imprisonment in a
county jail for a term not to exceed six months, a fine not to exceed
one thousand dollars ($1,000), or both the imprisonment and fine."

Since CSU(California State University) San Marcos is in California, you may have been in violation of the law.

ny32182
February 10, 2004, 01:13 AM
Bill Hook: Yeah, thats another reason. I had one ex-roommate who made a big deal about an un-warranted $15 parking ticket. Two days later, his CBR-600 was somehow dropped on both sides while being towed for being parked in a faculty spot before 4:30... an offence that normally only rates a $15 ticket. At no other time have I heard of a vehicle being towed for said offense. My point was simply to make absolutely 100% damn sure you are in the right with every move you make, and even then, it might cause more harm than good.

thefitzvh
February 10, 2004, 01:22 AM
Well, at least i'm not in jail! hehe :rolleyes:

It's a sad day when, just by doing that... i actually DID break the law. Or at least that's what it looks like.

Oh well. Live and learn

James

Kilrain
February 10, 2004, 01:28 AM
You think that is bad, check this out:

California Penal Code Section 626.10(b):

Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined
in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a
full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal
government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a
person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or
preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in
assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this
state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his
or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, or
knife having a fixed blade longer than 2 1/2 inches upon the grounds
of, or within, any private university, the University of California,
the California State University, or the California Community Colleges
is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a
county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state
prison.

It is a FELONY(!!!!!:what: ) to bring a FILET KNIFE to your college! I hope you don't forget your fishing gear in your car.....:barf:

thefitzvh
February 10, 2004, 01:29 AM
:cuss: :banghead:

Countdown to texas: 5 semesters

James

tyme
February 10, 2004, 01:57 AM
A few notes:

Private universities and public universities alike almost always have real police.

The Constitutions, State and Federal, (mostly) apply to public universities. Private universities can do whatever they want, in terms of speech and privacy and contraband, based on the idea that the university's rules and regulations are a contract.

Rules of criminal procedure apply at both public and private institutions. However, you might give up various rights (notably 4th Amendment rights) through contract at private institutions... particularly if you live in university-controlled housing or park on campus. Public institutions aren't much better. University housing and campus parking lots are 4th Amendment danger zones.

[rant]
The judicial/disciplinary system at colleges, public and private, is usually a sick joke. Avoid it if at all possible. Go to extreme lengths not to break laws (or, if you must break a law, don't get caught) on a college campus if you're a student. It's like a black hole, and there's no easy way to appeal to higher authority without taking the issue to real courts with a lawsuit.

xenophon
February 10, 2004, 02:12 AM
Ok, I actually believe that the campus cops went out there because of a call they got. Reasoning is 1) you said it was in an off campus lot 2) I don't think cops go looking on car seats in their spare time and 3) they were debating on opening up the car because of the nature of what they believed to be in there. (ok, i concede that if it was for explosives they wouldn't just break in, but call a bomb squad, but maybe they wanted to investigate first before looking like idiots)

I'm sure once they saw just the ammo that they figured the caller was just mistaken and it wasn't anything that serious. I think the cops went out of their way to go look at the inside of the car so something caused them to go out there. More likely scenario is someone who parked out there also walked by, saw ammo and thought "OMG, there's bullets in that car" and freaked and called the cops who then went out to investigage. But to use the word "explosives" is a bit fishy. I wouldn't break into a car to investigate explosives.

Also, I wonder if the search would have been legal under the Patriot Act?

"Section 213 of the USA Patriot Act,11 enacted on Oct. 26, 2001, contains the first express statutory authorization for the issuance of sneak and peek search warrants in American history." 1

1. http://www.law.uga.edu/academics/profiles/dwilkes_more/37patriot.html

x

clubsoda22
February 10, 2004, 02:32 AM
Campus police you say? Hmmph

My thoughts exactly steve. If i saw a few campus cops standing next to my car with a slim jim, i would have called real cops and reported a robbery in progress. Two guys impersonating police officers breaking into a white sedan in abc parking lot on xyz street. :D

There was a guy at another local college who kept getting parking tickets despite having his parking permit displayed properly. It was simply hard to see because of the tint. He told the campus cops a bunch of times and they took care of the tickets. one time he came out and there was a boot on his car with a notice to pay back owed parking fines to have it removed. He took some power tools to it in the middle of the night and dropped the hacked up boot on the lawn infront of the campus safety office. They stopped ticketing him.

tcdrennen
February 10, 2004, 03:39 AM
Cal State and UC police are full sworn LEOs in CA, under 830 PC - same section as CHP, in fact. And unless a law specifies a college or university as being subject to it, "school" in the CA codes almost always means K-12, not colleges.

Interestingly, almost all firearms prohibitions in CA specifically exempt CCW holders, including the laws banning guns on school (and college) campuses.

Oh, and yes, while most firearms prohibitions are misdemeanors (for 1st offense, at least) just about any other weapon (edged, impact, projectile) is a felony to possess anywhere, not just at schools.

ScottsGT
February 10, 2004, 08:56 AM
To quote LiquidTension:
"ttbadboy - good thing I never left ammo on my seat when I was at Clemson. REAL good thing they never found my SKS in my closet in McCabe!"

It's a good thing they never caught ME hiding in my wifes closet in the shoeboxes!! :D Spent many nights in that womens dorm. Good thing the wifes best friend was the RA!

Terminus
February 10, 2004, 12:32 PM
Wow! There are a bunch of Clemson folk here. Class of 1990 and former resident of Johnstone E, F, and a quad houses.

You'd think having an SKS in your dorm was ok based on the fact that (at least when I was there) some rooms still had the rifle racks in the closets left over from the old cadet corps days.

Ah, the days of sleeping over in the shoeboxes, the towers, J'stone A...8^)

Dex Sinister
February 10, 2004, 01:50 PM
Although I don't agree with it, it is the law in the California:

California Penal Code Section 12316(c):



Hmmm, I don't think that is the correct section. IIRC, PC 12316 covers elementary and secondary schools, not colleges.

I believe the correct section applied to colleges is California Penal Code Section 626.9 which references

626.9. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the
Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.
[...]
(h) Notwithstanding Section 12026, any person who brings or
possesses a loaded firearm upon the grounds of a campus of, or
buildings owned or operated for student housing, teaching, research,
or administration by, a public or private university or college, that
are contiguous or are clearly marked university property, unless it
is with the written permission of the university or college
president, his or her designee, or equivalent university or college
authority, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for
two, three, or four years. Notwithstanding subdivision (k), a
university or college shall post a prominent notice at primary
entrances on noncontiguous property stating that firearms are
prohibited on that property pursuant to this subdivision.
[...]
(l) This section does not apply to a duly appointed peace officer
as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of
Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the
federal government who is carrying out official duties while in
California, any person summoned by any of these officers to assist in
making arrests or preserving the peace while he or she is actually
engaged in assisting the officer, a member of the military forces of
this state or of the United States who is engaged in the performance
of his or her duties, a person holding a valid license to carry the
firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050) of
Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, or an armored vehicle guard, engaged
in the performance of his or her duties, as defined in subdivision
(e) of Section 7521 of the Business and Professions Code.

Section (l) excludes CCW holders, BTW.


Dex };>=-

gunsmith
February 10, 2004, 02:37 PM
Ask Jim March
http://www.equalccw.com/knifelaw.html#SECTION%20THREE
Section 626.10 is here reproduced in it's entirety, and briefly explained in the editor's notes and text below.

Short form: K-12 schools, no knife over 2.5" is legal except for certain work-related types (kitchen stuff for the chef, etc.). At Universities and Colleges, there's a ban on FIXED BLADES bigger than 2.5" but there's no problems with large folding knives that are otherwise not switchblades under PC653k.

626.10. (a) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, knife having a blade longer than 21/2 inches, folding knife with a blade that locks into place, a razor with an unguarded blade, a taser, or a stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5, any instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun, upon the grounds of, or within, any public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison. [Ed. Note: This is the paragraph dealing with legal carry on K-12 school grounds. Note that folding lockblades bigger than 2.5" are banned. This applies to any adult on campus; there are exceptions for work-related stuff in part "C" through "G" below.]
(b) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, or knife having a fixed blade longer than 21/2 inches upon the grounds of, or within, any private university, the University of California, the California State University, or the California Community Colleges is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison. [Ed. Note: This paragraph covers colleges and universities. There is still a ban on large fixed-blades, but large locking folders legal under Penal Code 653k are completely legal. This applies to any adult age 18 or over on campus, student or otherwise; there are exceptions for work-related stuff in part "C" through "G" below.]

(c) Subdivisions (a) and (b) do not apply to any person who brings or possesses a knife having a blade longer than 21/2 inches or a razor with an unguarded blade upon the grounds of, or within, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or any private university, state university, or community college at the direction of a faculty member of the private university, state university, or community college, or a certificated or classified employee of the school for use in a private university, state university, community college, or school-sponsored activity or class.

(d) Subdivisions (a) and (b) do not apply to any person who brings or possesses an ice pick, a knife having a blade longer than 21/2 inches, or a razor with an unguarded blade upon the grounds of, or within, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or any private university, state university, or community college for a lawful purpose within the scope of the person's employment.

(e) Subdivision (b) does not apply to any person who brings or possesses an ice pick or a knife having a fixed blade longer than 21/2 inches upon the grounds of, or within, any private university, state university, or community college for lawful use in or around a residence or residential facility located upon those grounds or for lawful use in food preparation or consumption.

(f) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any person who brings an instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun upon the grounds of, or within, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, if the person has the written permission of the school principal or his or her designee.

(g) Any certificated or classified employee or school peace officer of a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, may seize any of the weapons described in subdivision (a), and any certificated or classified employee or school peace officer of any private university, state university, or community college may seize any of the weapons described in subdivision (b), from the possession of any person upon the grounds of, or within, the school if he or she knows, or has reasonable cause to know, the person is prohibited from bringing or possessing the weapon upon the grounds of, or within, the school.

(h) As used in this section, "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death.

This is actually simpler than it looks :). Once you realize that there's ONE change between the K-12 rules in paragraph "A" and the college/university rules in "B", it all makes "sense". About as much as any weapons law does.
SECTION FOUR: LOCAL ORDINANCES AND ENFORCEMENT

This is the trickiest part.

Los Angeles and a few other SoCal cities have a town ordinance banning the carry of knives over 3". In SOME cases, it's phrased as a ban on big stuff of any sort carried openly, so that excludes fixed-blades and the open-carry of big folders, but you can still conceal (and LEAVE concealed until needed to save a life) a large folding knife.

San Francisco has an ordinance on knife carry, but it's only linked to simultaneous "illegal loitering". Clearly, this was meant as a "homeless control measure" of sorts, God only knows how old. Berkeley has a knife ordinance too.

But the reality is, local knife ordinances cannot be applied to people passing through on a major road, enforcement of all local ordinances is spotty unless you fit a "juvenile offender profile", and most cops don't even know their local knife ordinances.

If you're scrupulous about not violating state law, which I'd highly recommend, and you don't come across as a slimeball, the odds are vastly against your having problems. I've had a lot of cops see my street-carry pieces, and I've not had a confiscation or harassment yet.

gunsmith
February 10, 2004, 02:38 PM
If you have a CCW I am pretty sure you can carry on campus

ny32182
February 10, 2004, 02:56 PM
Yup, Go Tigers!

Johnstone E 4th floor was my freshman year residence in Fall 2000.... Moved off campus after that. Tentatively planning to graduate computer engineering in May or summer 2005 (been co-oping all of 2003).

Do any of you guys make it for the football games?

Terminus
February 10, 2004, 03:28 PM
I live about 2 1/2 hours down I-85, but haven't been able to get up there in over a decade. How pathetic is that?

From what I hear, I wouldn't recognize large parts of the campus anymore. But that's nothing new - I was and architecture major. I never saw anything but the inside of Lee Hall and whatever dorm I was living in at the time.

I really can't believe that ANY part of J'stone is still in use. Actually, I seem to remember something in the alumni mag about Clemson selling off the closet rifle racks. Wonder if they still have 'em?

ny32182
February 10, 2004, 03:50 PM
Johnstone A is the only part thats still in use/hasn't been demolished yet.

The gun racks were gone by the time I lived in Johnstone E.... and the campus has changed considerably in just the ~3.5 short years I've been here.

Samurai Penguin
February 10, 2004, 05:54 PM
Two days later, his CBR-600 was somehow dropped on both sides while being towed for being parked in a faculty spot before 4:30... an offence that normally only rates a $15 ticket. At no other time have I heard of a vehicle being towed for said offense.

I do hope your ex-roommate "somehow" pursued legal action against anyone involved in this. Maybe they have the right to tow, but I don't think they have the right to destroy property while doing it!

(You did WHAT to my :cuss: ing bike? :confused: :what: :fire: )

confed sailor
February 10, 2004, 10:58 PM
you know the last time cadets did that they ran out of gas on King street, spoiled it for the rest of us,

actually they just recently refurbished the tank, new paint and everything, except one thing, the engine has been disconnected from the tranny, and though cadets are smart, thats a bit more than we can handle.

Kilrain
February 10, 2004, 11:49 PM
Dex,

As I said in my post, he MAY be guilty of a crime by possessing the ammunition on the grounds of the college. Yes, the 626 PC section specifies what it is referring to when the law says "school" as opposed to "community college", "college" or "university" however 12316 PC does not. Remember the old axiom about the word "assume" making an "a$$" out of "u" and "me"? I would hate to be the "a$$" hauled to jail because I assumed the word "school" does not apply to colleges in section 12316 PC;) .

The above being said, a request to the Attorney General's office or even the local D.A.'s Office for clarification of the matter BEFORE having the ammunition on ANY school grounds would, IMHO be a good idea. But then again, maybe I am just a little paranoid, I know how cops can get:evil: .

CGofMP
February 11, 2004, 12:59 AM
Lets see here....

Quick test for security guards:

A radio call comes in informing you of explosives in a vehicle.
Knowing that terrorists will likely make it so that tampering could be detected and trigger an explosion, a trained campus patrol officer should take which action FIRST:

a) Call higher authorities such as local police or sherrif, ask for bomb disposal unit.

b) Seal off an area 100 yards or more around suspect vehicle.

c) Personally investigate the vehicle before making a determination by checking to see if the doors are locked and trunk is secure

d) Grab the slim jim in the corner of the office and immediately get the vehicle open, do a thorough search of the vehicle, trunk, and all packages therein and report to the dispatch center if you find any explosives.

You have 25 minutes to answer this question....



---------------------

As for guns on school property, god how things have changed. When I got my LE degree in 1987 I used to DAILY carry a revolver and sometimes also a semi-auto pistol on campus in a briefcase for use on the pistol range that was there for students taking the shooting classes. It was not common, but I was not the only student that did this. Mostly, cops taught the classes and nobody gave a ****.

That range is now closed, a beautiful underground range with 25 and 50 yard positions, now turned into classrooms.

Much has changed in this awful state.

-------------

Dont even get me started whining about how I wish I could get a decent paying job in another state where houses do not cost a BARE minimum of 250k with a 90 minute commute.... and 500k if you want the 30 min version.

Charles

El Rojo
February 11, 2004, 03:12 AM
Before you make any more posts about security guards and rent a cops: realize that CSU and UC police are sworn state police and have juristiction over all of the state. So instead of continuing to make yourselves sound stupid, quit brining it up. Now if you want to focus on the fact that they decided to break into a "car with explosives" in it, that is a valid complaint.

I remember when I used to work for the UCLA PD, someone called in a round of 9mm ammunition in one of the parking structures. I would have just picked it up and thrown it in the trash. That is big city liberals for you.

ScottsGT
February 11, 2004, 08:24 AM
Here at USC, we have two different breeds of LEO's. The guys in the patrol cars that are actually doing some good, and get great traning. They are the cutting edge in law enforcement. They get all the "Inspector Gadget" items under grants and develop ways for local and state LEO to use them. But then there is the parking patrol......
Can you say Keystone Cops!?

entropy
February 23, 2004, 01:24 AM
what Navahonpaleface said! Ammo boxes in plain view, (anything of value in plain view ,really) is asking for a rock through the window followed by a thourough "search" !:uhoh: Be glad the "officers" were going to use a slim jim instead of a rock. That said, you certainly have cause for complaint, however, I would consider the ramifications. Campuses are comparatively small areas, and you could find it's more trouble than it's worth. (Tickets, whether deserved or not, waiting for you to leave the campus watering hole, etc.) You can be assured that they wrote down your plate and physical description. If you go to their boss on this, they will get an a** chewing, and will have YOUR liscense plate.
Choose you battles wisely, and gather as much intel as you can before the battle. I do commend you for attending a Politically Correct Training Facility (spelled College) and still having the will, ability and desire to shoot!:D Good Luck!

Orthonym
February 23, 2004, 03:21 AM
With arrest powers, and sovereign immunity, and everything? I must be getting old, or something.

This was unheard of when I was at Ga. Tech in late 60s-early70s.

We had security, with watchmen's clocks and no weapons. If a student got rowdy, the RA or Dean of students handled it. For actual crimes, it was Atlanta police; after all, there was no defined "campus": public streets ran all through the place, with many private houses in among and between the school buildings. I hear it's lately gotten worse, with Official School Police, and gates and checkpoints, and suchlike bullying.

Weapons in the dorms? Not allowed officially, but the way to do it was to give the bolt from your rifle to the RA. Pistols were easier to hide and therefore not mentioned to anyone.

c_yeager
February 23, 2004, 04:04 AM
Orthonym, just about every state-run university in the nation employes a sworn police force. it is the rule rather than the exception.

seeker_two
February 23, 2004, 06:09 AM
thefitzvh: You were wrong to leave your ammo in plain sight, but--unless it's illegal to have on campus--they were wrong to try an illegal search.

I would have gotten their names & badge numbers (w/o saying anything offensive, of course..;) ), gone to the REAL police, and filed an attempted B&E report against them. Even if no action is taken, a paper trail has been started that could end up biting the campus keystones in the tail later....

I graduated Baylor several years ago, and I know there's little love b/t the Baylor rent-a-cops & the Waco PD. They would have ENJOYED cuffing & dragging the "Bear Patrol" downtown...:evil:

geekWithA.45
February 23, 2004, 09:47 AM
Orthonym:

I was a campus cop for a few years while I was a student in the late 80's. I've got some fascinating stories from those days, that are OT/not relevant here.


The way it worked was that there were 3 tiers:

The 3 rotating shift Sergeants were actual sworn peace officers, with guns that they mostly kept locked up in their office, arrest powers, the whole 9 yards.

The next tier was about a dozen uniformed campus cops. They weren't sworn peace officers, but none of the students knew that, and since the sergeant generally didn't carry his sidearm, there was no way you'd know it.

When the president of the college was in a mood to crush dissent, these two tiers would be the hatchet men. {grrr.}

The third tier was about 2 dozen student work study cops (like me) who wore an orange "campus police" vests, and did things like patrol a given area with a radio or man the guard posts at the dorm entrances, and listen for sounds of folks in distress.

When the state changed its policy on parking tickets, allowing the college to keep most of the revenues, the whole student tier was converted to parking patrol overnight, and the ticket fines went up by a factor of 10 :what:

Since we were no longer doing anything useful, and the situaton was unconscionable, I quit about a month later.

Dannyboy
February 23, 2004, 04:49 PM
Orthonym, just about every state-run university in the nation employes a sworn police force. it is the rule rather than the exception.

Man, I'm glad somebody finally said it. It was driving me nuts. If it's a state school, most likely, they're state cops not rent-a cops.

rock jock
February 23, 2004, 05:20 PM
When I was in college ('84), the guy down the hall had a unregistered full-auto M16 he had swiped as parts from a US Army armory when he was in the Reserves. Cool gun! He also had a 1911 wrapped up in a towel.

Waitone
February 23, 2004, 06:07 PM
Clemson Class of '74

Four years in Johnston Hall--3 years in the honest to goodness metal walled Cans. Had to go to my senior year before I had a chair with arms and a bed that was NOT and army cot. 3 full years of steam heat complete with steam hammer in the night and no A/C in the spring.

Most notable features to me was the metal walls and thin mason board between rooms. My closet had a rifle rack in. Never had firearms in my room (against rules) but I was on the fencing team and I had a dandy collection of dangerous equipment.

Does the Pershing Rifles still use military rifles or have they been browbeat into using cutout rifles and yelling "bang." Really enjoyed watching the Pershing Rifles do their thingy.

Highland Ranger
February 23, 2004, 06:14 PM
Before you take any action make sure you weren't doing anything illegal.

In NJ, hollow point ammo is illegal outside of your house and the range.

So if those were two boxes of hollow point, you'd be in trouble.

Once you confirmed you weren't doing anything wrong, then consider making a stink.

Amish
February 23, 2004, 06:23 PM
They can't search your car without due cause. Having ammo is not enough to search your car without your permission. You could have sued them for illegal search. I would have.

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