My ffl says no more Buds Gun Shop transfers


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gfpd707
February 8, 2012, 08:05 PM
Tonight I went in to my local dealer to fill out the paperwork for a recently purchase firearm. I bought the gun from buds and having it shipped to him. While there the owner said he will no longer do any business with Buds Gun Shop. He told me that he was concerned that there where legal issues with recieving guns from them. He claims that the guns do not come from them but instead come from other suppliers and believes that this might get him in trouble. Has anyone else heard of this? My theory is he is unable to compete with there prices and this is a way to stop doing business with them. He charges $35 per firearm transfer. It looks like I will be driving the extra 8 miles to the next dealer who charges $25 and has no problem with Buds.

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mgmorden
February 8, 2012, 08:11 PM
Buds "drop ships" from various warehouses. Trust me, they're big enough that they've worked out all the issues.

For the best service for online purchases, I've personally found it better to go with FFL transfer guys who don't normally do local sales. Those guys specifically WANT to deal with Buds as transfers are their primary source of income. There's one guy here locally doing several dozen per week.

Malachi Leviticus Blue
February 8, 2012, 08:13 PM
I don't blame you for wanting to get a deal and buy from Buds, but do you actually spend any money with this FFL besides the transfer fees, for stuff you buy from Buds, etc? ( A lot of people don't) If not, he isn't making any money dealing with you and is probably making a smart business decision. A guy has to make a living, and he didn't get his FFL to loose money just doing transfers. The good news is you just need to go down the street to work with a someone who will play tat game. Might be worth your while to spend some real cash with him to keep the transfer relationship going. Just a thought.

The Lone Haranguer
February 8, 2012, 08:17 PM
It looks like I will be driving the extra 8 miles to the next dealer who charges $25 and has no problem with Buds.
I would, right after I told him not to blow smoke up my ... backside.

It seems likely to me that he just doesn't want to do transfers from Bud's, especially if he carries or can get the same guns for only a little more, but he should be honest about it and not make up BS. There is no legal commodity tracked from manufacturer to distributor to store as closely as firearms.

gfpd707
February 8, 2012, 08:32 PM
I don't blame you for wanting to get a deal and buy from Buds, but do you actually spend any money with this FFL besides the transfer fees, for stuff you buy from Buds, etc? ( A lot of people don't) If not, he isn't making any money dealing with you and is probably making a smart business decision. A guy has to make a living, and he didn't get his FFL to loose money just doing transfers. The good news is you just need to go down the street to work with a someone who will play tat game. Might be worth your while to spend some real cash with him to keep the transfer relationship going. Just a thought.
I purchase about 50/50 from online and locally through this dealer. Sometimes however the price online is just to good. This paticular purchase was a Browning Buckmark for $398. The local dealer price was $530. I am all for supporting the local guy but 33% before taxes is a bit much. I also purchase alot of small items through this dealer on a biweekly basis.

danez71
February 8, 2012, 08:49 PM
I purchase about 50/50 from online and locally through this dealer. Sometimes however the price online is just to good. This paticular purchase was a Browning Buckmark for $398. The local dealer price was $530. I am all for supporting the local guy but 33% before taxes is a bit much. I also purchase alot of small items through this dealer on a biweekly basis.

Maybe he should look into Davidson Gungenie.

A couple of the shops around here dont really like the Bud thing either. It turns them into paper pushers.

But, as an example, if that Buckmark you mentioned is a based model, I can get it for $380ish through Davidsons and the shops are guaranteed a certain $ amount and the shop loves this business.

He doesnt have to stock. He has to do paperwork if he sells regardless. But he actually gets to make a profit instead of charging you for him push'n paper.

gfpd707
February 8, 2012, 08:54 PM
Maybe he should look into Davidson Gungenie.

A couple of the shops around here dont really like the Bud thing either. It turns them into paper pushers.

But, as an example, if that Buckmark you mentioned is a based model, I can get it for $380ish through Davidsons and the shops are guaranteed a certain $ amount and the shop loves this business.

He doesnt have to stock. He has to do paperwork if he sells regardless. But he actually gets to make a profit instead of charging you for him push'n paper.
I hope there is some way we can work this out. I would really like to see him stay in business and do well but the prices of the guns he has in stock are almost always overly inflated.

browneu
February 8, 2012, 09:00 PM
It's a fine line between ordering online and supporting the local store. I try to support the local store whenever possible but sometimes Bud's prices are too good. I buy 90% of my guns locally.

merrick4
February 8, 2012, 09:00 PM
I live about two miles from Bud's in Lexington, they are good to work with and charge me $ 10.00 when I purchase rifles on various auction sites.

bob barker
February 8, 2012, 09:02 PM
I have a guy in Houston who does transfers for $15 for non CHL holders and $10 for CHL holders. Great guy with a store front too. I have bought a few guns from him, and have had a few transfered in from Buds Purchases. He understands the game, and is making money on volume, and is doing quite well!

jerkface11
February 8, 2012, 09:35 PM
he isn't making any money dealing with you and is probably making a smart business decision.

Yup $35 to fill out some paperwork just isn't making money :rolleyes:

BP Hunter
February 8, 2012, 09:39 PM
My favorite FFL also just dropped Buds and any transfers. She told me that she actually loses money when performing the transfer, plus the tax plus the credit card payments. I really liked Buds since they have the 6-12 months to pay with no interest. I don't blame her for dropping them too. Honestly, it actually costs me more to buy a gun online, but it's also nice to pay it off in a few months.

jojo200517
February 8, 2012, 09:45 PM
I have never dealt with buds but I have ran several other tansfers thru my local FFL guy/small gun shop. He charges a flat $30 bucks regardless of whether handgun or long gun. Normally before I order I do stop by for a visit or call and see if he has or can get me the same thing for somewhere in the neighborhood of the same price. If he can come close and I save on shipping and transfer fee I'll just buy from him. If its something he doesn't have in the first place or his suppliers are out of stock on then I order it and do the transfer thru him. It takes practically no time or effort on his part to fill out the paperwork. Granted its not the only thing I buy from him, I have purchased a handgun and quiet a good bit of ammo and other do-dads from him and usually try to pick up something else when I go to get the transfer gun. He is also pretty good at trying to sell me a box or 3 of ammo to go along with my new gun even if I didn't buy it from him.

rcmodel
February 8, 2012, 09:45 PM
Yup $35 to fill out some paperwork just isn't making money :rolleyes:Seriously, it isn't, or at least not nearly $35 bucks!

He has an annual FFL fee to pay.
He has insurance it pay, on himself, his employees, and his business.
He has taxes to pay, local & state sales tax, property tax, inventory tax, income tax, plus a few others.

Then there is wages, Social Security, unemployment insurance, sick time, and other expenses on any employees.

And lets not forget rent on the building.

All so you can go into his store and coon-finger the guns, then undercut him by buying the gun from Bud's!

Then expect him to pay his phone bill so he can call the ATF and do your background check to give you the gun?

And then keep your record in his ATF "bound book" for the rest of the years he can manage to stay in business?

Mercy! Mercy! Mercy!
The scoundrel really stuck it too you didn't he!!

rc

Dmitri Popov
February 8, 2012, 09:57 PM
Hmmm... Thats funny because most every Gun Dealer I've talked to always says:
"I'm only making like $10 bucks on this gun!"
Which to me seems like they would love getting those $35 fees to just write in some info.
Unless of course they were...Lying!!! Bum bum bum!!!

As they say, "I know you gotta make some money, but you ain't gotta make it all off me!"

Cluster Bomb
February 8, 2012, 09:59 PM
i would think any income is a plus, rather than having a gun sitting on a self for years. Like some loacal gun shops here.

One guy really only deals with online sales, and transferring. I usually go to him to do transfers. I go to my local gun shop to buy guns there as they only do transfers for guns they do not carry, like AR's.

If he is on the buds preferred ffl list, i think he could get in some sorta trouble with them? but i dont know.

Just find a guy that will do the paper pushing, and use another guy that has big inventory to buy locally. Usually the guy that wants to do ffl transfers, thats his bank right there and he probably has verry little instock inventory and probably just orders stuff for people.

Sometimes i buy locally, when i find a deal that is. But when i buy a gun i base my purchase on the gun, cond etc. Not the guys overhead.......so his over priced wat ever sits there for a long time usually till he marks it down to where it should be, but when that happends he makes probably nothing, then snubs a ffl transfer that is cash right there.....go figure.....

youngda9
February 8, 2012, 10:00 PM
Just find a new FFL. One that just does transfers and isn't trying to sell guns on his own. Bud's had an entire listing of FFLs on their website.

jon_in_wv
February 8, 2012, 10:01 PM
Or you can look at it as a few minutes worth of work for a guaranteed $35.00 bucks that he would otherwise not be making. If he did 10 a week that would be $350 income for his shop that probably didn't add up to an hours worth of labor. Personally, when I open my shop I'll be happy to do transfers. You aren't going to force people to buy your guns at a higher price by refusing to do it. My LGS happily accepts guns for me, they also ship for me and don't charge a dime to do it. They know that because they help me out I'm a loyal customer and I do buy guns, ammo, targets, range time, etc.. from the shop. If the difference isn't too great from the online price I'll even buy it from them instead of online. None of that would be true if they didn't do transfers for me. I would just go to another shop that did.

He has all those expenses for his business whether he accepts the extra income from doing transfers or not. There is however little added expense to doing them.

As a matter of fact, the business model I hope to adopt when I do open my shop is to do a large amount of my business online. Both sales and accepting transfers for my customers. My overhead should be low enough (the building space will be paid for) that I'll be able to make my local sales economically so I can draw business to our small town and benefit the community as a whole. Thats the plan anyhow.

TennJed
February 8, 2012, 10:01 PM
2 of the 5 local ffl that I have asked locally will not do buds. I have not asked the other 3

rc109a
February 8, 2012, 10:01 PM
If it is costing him money, then he should stop and find something else that will make money or charge more for the transfer. I hate ordering from online companies, but shops around here are charging a lot more money for the same item. I work just as hard for my money as the LGS, so why should I foolishly pay more for an item then I need to? I understand the thought of supporting the LGC and such, but it makes no sense to work my rear end off to earn a check, just to throw it away.

The LGS's around my neighborhood seem to give you an attitude when you want something they do not have in stock. When I ask if they will order something for me, they give me the run around and in most cases takes 2 to 6 months to get it.

I for one will spend my money where I get the best deal. That deal includes value and customer service.

chevyman097
February 8, 2012, 10:05 PM
Dont listen to his crap. Find another dealer. He will lose in the long run.

mgkdrgn
February 8, 2012, 10:07 PM
Or you can look at it as a few minutes worth of work for a guaranteed $35.00 bucks that he would otherwise not be making. If he did 10 a week that would be $350 income for his shop that probably didn't add up to an hours worth of labor. Personally, when I open my shop I'll be happy to do transfers. You aren't going to force people to buy your guns at a higher price by refusing to do it. My LGS happily accepts guns for me, they also ship for me and don't charge a dime to do it. They know that because they help me out I'm a loyal customer and I do buy guns, ammo, targets, range time, etc.. from the shop. If the difference isn't too great from the online price I'll even buy it from them instead of online. None of that would be true if they didn't do transfers for me. I would just go to another shop that did.

He has all those expenses for his business whether he accepts the extra income from doing transfers or not. There is however little added expense to doing them.

As a matter of fact, the business model I hope to adopt when I do open my shop is to do a large amount of my business online. Both sales and accepting transfers for my customers. My overhead should be low enough (the building space will be paid for) that I'll be able to make my local sales economically so I can draw business to our small town and benefit the community as a whole. Thats the plan anyhow.
Oh boy, I just can't wait to see how you get rich doing transfers ... and can do -all- the work to do 10 in less than an hour.

2ifbyC
February 8, 2012, 10:13 PM
Of course, the local dealer has the prerogative as to whom they do business.

Budís must supply the FFL to the local dealer and therefore eliminates the issue of illegal purchases.

It baffles me to hear that the local dealer is not making money or is losing money by performing transfers. Iíll use my experience as an illustration:

First I must purchase the firearm from Budís and pay with a cash equivalent or credit card; this is a contract between me and Budís, not the local gun dealer. The firearm is sent to the local dealer; no shipping cost to dealer. Since the firearm was purchased out of state, I do not have to pay state taxes. This may vary by states, but if taxes are required, you pay the tax not the local dealer.

The ATF provides the forms for free or nominal charge. I fill out the form. If I have a CCW, no call is necessary for background check; otherwise it is a five minute call. They make an entry in their records book. I take the firearm and leave. The charge is normally $15 to $45; $20 in my case. And thatís profit; the fixed costs of running a business are there irrespective of whether you buy from the local dealer or not.

Dr.Rob
February 8, 2012, 10:21 PM
Some small dealers are just 'like that' for lack of a better word. The occasional 'good buddy deal' where the consumer doesn't know the dealer price is a relative thing of the past.

Some dealers want to add a few bucks.. which I honestly have no issue with esp. if it's a hard to get item or you are dealing with or NFA.. which requires a lot more work on the dealer's part.

Malachi Leviticus Blue
February 8, 2012, 10:25 PM
Dont listen to his crap. Find another dealer. He will lose in the long run.

By turning away the business, he will come out ahead in the short , and long run.

$35 to own any business, operate, & insure & make any transaction involving Federal Paperwork. is a loosing proposition.

Don't even mention having to be there to receive the package, sign for the package, take responsibility for said package. Open package, store package, secure package document package, retrieve package, present package.oh yea fill out paper work, plus everything else that has been mentioned. Most of us are looking for a deal, but for a guy to make a living someone has to pay him some $$$$$.

chevyman097
February 8, 2012, 10:48 PM
Ya, 35 bucks for less than 30 minutes of an FFLs time is a slap in the face. All dealers should wise up and stop accepting guns from out side sources. :rolleyes:

Wanderling
February 8, 2012, 10:48 PM
I did mine through a guy with FFL license who isn't a dealer. He only charged $15 and was a pleasure to deal with. LGS were asking between $45 - 75 and had a really stinky attitude.

His entire time spent processing my paperwork was 15 min. He received my gun in his office (2 min max). Less than half an hour. At local shop rates, that's $90 to 150 an hour. They must really be losing money processing these orders.

abq87120
February 8, 2012, 10:52 PM
I would dump this LGS and find another one. I pay $25 to receive a gun from a very nice lady locally who also does CCW classes, etc. She has made a lot of money off me for filling out a piece of paper, calling the FBI and handing me my gun. Takes all of about 10 minutes. Not bad. Thats a rate of about $150/hr.

wrigh003
February 8, 2012, 10:57 PM
I asked at a local shop yesterday what their transfer policy was. $35 if they don't have it in stock (actual words were "if we don't sell it..." so, room for interpretation there...), $50 if they do. I thought that was fair. It might keep me coming back, they get a cushion to keep me from beating them up over just a few bucks, but also gives me the ability to keep them honest with a price check via the www without feeling bad.

CZ-82 in "decent" shape for $300? Cmon, now...

jerkface11
February 8, 2012, 11:02 PM
Don't even mention having to be there to receive the package, sign for the package, take responsibility for said package. Open package, store package, secure package document package, retrieve package, present package.oh yea fill out paper work, plus everything else that has been mentioned. Most of us are looking for a deal, but for a guy to make a living someone has to pay him some $$$$$.

Yeah now he gets to be there when the package would have been delivered and be there when he would have been filling out paper work. Only now there isn't anyone paying him.

Dazen
February 8, 2012, 11:03 PM
The FFL that I use has done over 16 transfers for me over the years and has sold me 10 firearms. If they had not done those transfers for me i probably wouldn't have bought those guns from them. I just don't see how turning down transfers is good for business.

Lex Luthier
February 8, 2012, 11:03 PM
Being cheap obviously has other unavoidable inherent costs. Retailers get screwed all the time because of cheapskates. Business owners are obligated to write off costs associated with cheapskates in the name of supposed good customer relations. Employees just trying to keep their job in a crappy economy become bored and apathetic having to deal with constant questions that result in occasional sales.

How about making a deal with your LGS that you will buy that overpriced gun for retail price if he does (choose appropriate quantity) of your cheap transfers?

Or, you can know what you want, know what it's worth, and pay the inconvenience cost that everyone else does.

Nushif
February 8, 2012, 11:10 PM
I have never ordered a gun online, even though prices here are pretty darned steep.

Simply because I *like* walking into a gunshop. and i *like* the people that work there. and I *like* having a gunshop around. Call me odd. Were I a gun dealer, I would try to reach a certain price, but on the flipside ... I'd also expect something back for running a gunstore, letting people handle guns, talking guns ... preferably money.

Malachi Leviticus Blue
February 8, 2012, 11:12 PM
Yeah now he gets to be there when the package would have been delivered and be there when he would have been filling out paper work. Only now there isn't anyone paying him.

And since 90% of us seem to be unwilling to pay for it, the LGS goes out of business, or tries to stays in business loosing money.

billdeserthills
February 8, 2012, 11:14 PM
I don't blame you for wanting to get a deal and buy from Buds, but do you actually spend any money with this FFL besides the transfer fees, for stuff you buy from Buds, etc? ( A lot of people don't) If not, he isn't making any money dealing with you and is probably making a smart business decision. A guy has to make a living, and he didn't get his FFL to loose money just doing transfers. The good news is you just need to go down the street to work with a someone who will play tat game. Might be worth your while to spend some real cash with him to keep the transfer relationship going. Just a thought.
As an FFL for 6 years I disagree & I charge $25 to transfer. I'd be happy all day to sit on my chair & call people to fax my ffl to while I make bank all day long and never worry about inventory either.
Your lame FFL is upset cause he is jealous of Buds Guns, in my opinion

Dnaltrop
February 8, 2012, 11:28 PM
I look at Buds, but very rarely do I see them with a price that beats my shop 5 blocks from my house after I factor shipping in.

My LGS does 10% over cost consistently. (and I think they do indeed use the davidsons' gun genie as well) They don't keep a huge stock, but i'm patient enough to let them order in what I want.

It also keeps the wheels greased for when I do need them to just run the paperwork, rather than making their larger cut.

jon_in_wv
February 9, 2012, 12:09 AM
Oh boy, I just can't wait to see how you get rich doing transfers ... and can do -all- the work to do 10 in less than an hour

Nothing like taking what a person said out of context to make yourself look smart huh? I didn't say I was trying to get rich, nor did I say I was just going to do only transfers. Additionally, I've had quite a few weapons transferred and none of them took more than a few minutes. So between twisting my words and looking smart, you succeeded at one of the two. Nice try though.

elano
February 9, 2012, 12:13 AM
One shop in town always has new gunss coming in and gettting sold, always has a crowd of people in the store, always making sales to loyal customers and negotiating prices.

The other store has the same guns sitting on the shelf, won't budge much on price, won't order things for you, it's always dead in there.

Why is this? People want good deals. Shop A only makes $10 per gun but sells 200 per week. Shop b makes 35-100 per gun but only sells maybe 5 per week.

Seems like a no brainer to me, all the potential customers of shop B are going to shop A, and hardly ever stop back in because they know it's just the same ol same ol high prices, lousy selection, and rude service. At least that's what I think is going on.

oneounceload
February 9, 2012, 12:24 AM
Personally, my local guy who can order guns from a different distributor can beat Bud's EVERY time. He accepts transfer from Bud's, but he'll offer to get it and beat Bud's - this way I get a better price, he makes a profit and stays in business

a, 35 bucks for less than 30 minutes of an FFLs time is a slap in the face.

Guess you missed the part about all of the rest of the overhead a brick and mortar store has to pay, eh?....

Guess you must work for someone else and have NO idea what the owner has go through just to keep you employed and the business open. Ask your local auto repair place why their shop rate runs typically about $95/hour

jay21
February 9, 2012, 12:26 AM
Transfers fees are part of the business, I charge $20 and it is less about the "time of transaction" but the "risk." Every gun you pick up from my shop is a potential lawsuit, for all i know you are the next VA Tech ahole...Plus if i miss something on the paperwork or accept a fake ID (unknown to me at the time) i risk my business and FFL. The reason many FFL's i know do like like dealing with buds is that "we" smaller dealers cannot get the drop ship option from vendors buds does. That being said, I need to make a living and $20 for a transfer is worse than $40-50 i might make on the sale but better than nothing. It sucks, but that is business and if i have a buyer that is a good customer most of the time (hell even a steady) I am more likely to do whatever they need to help them out. Just my $.02, but be happy many dealers are only charging transfer fees they are, regs are looking to get real muddy soon as ATF is looking at additional requirements as soon and they can bury Fast and Furious

jerkface11
February 9, 2012, 12:45 AM
Guess you missed the part about all of the rest of the overhead a brick and mortar store has to pay, eh?....


I guess you missed the part where he has to pay overhead even if no one is coming in to pay $35 per transfer.

jon_in_wv
February 9, 2012, 12:52 AM
If you did 10 a week at $35.00 a pop, thats $350 a week or $1400 a month. That IS rent in a lot of areas and its a good start in others.

R.W.Dale
February 9, 2012, 12:53 AM
BOTTOM line is gun shops can either work with the internet or go away and be forgotten. Every other successful buisness in the modern age gets this.

I've actually listed guns online on behalf of one of our shops

HINT pawnshops have FFL's and a pawnbroker if he's any good is delighted to make anything he can from a person. They understand competition. Many dedicated gun shops don't.

posted via tapatalk using android.

medalguy
February 9, 2012, 02:39 AM
Last week I dropped in to the Houston Gun Forum store (Yes that's the name) to pick up a new pistol I ordered online :scrutiny:. I walked in, the guy behind the counter reached over and picked up my pistol from the shelf, whipped out a 4473 which I filled out while he waited on another customer picking up a gun ;), showed my CHL, he copied down the number, handed me the gun, I handed hin $5 :eek:, and I walked out with the pistol. Easiest $5 he made all day, and I think he made quite a few Lincolns that day. He's the cheapest transfer dealer I know of.

mgmorden
February 9, 2012, 03:09 AM
If you did 10 a week at $35.00 a pop, thats $350 a week or $1400 a month. That IS rent in a lot of areas and its a good start in others.

Yep. As with ANY business, there is an overhead cost that needs to be paid, but that's life. The thing is most of that overhead is a fixed cost. Rent, lights, etc are all going to be pretty close to the same regardless of sales volume. Do enough of those transfers and eventually those are covered and it's all profit beyond that.

Realistically if it takes you more than 10 minutes (and I'm even being generous there) to receive a shipment, log in it, and send the person a quick email then you're being inefficient. When the person comes in it's another 15-20 minutes tops. Heck in a lot of states you can skip the NICS check if the person has a CWP which makes the process even quicker.

The guy I use is at http://www.hhbguns.com.

I have no affiliation with the guy - I'm merely using him as a perfect example of someone who knows how to run a modern gun business. Does transfers for $15 each with a little Durakote work available. He maintains no other stock. He's also very communicative with strong Facebook and Google+ presences and typically when I've sent him an email I've had a response back within 20 minutes tops.

From speaking with him, he does several thousand transfers per year and is doing pretty well at it.

As RW Dale says: gun shops have to adapt or die. When you're in a business whose business model is no longer sustainable then you have to move to something that IS. Trying to fight against internet sales is about as useful as standing on the shore and yelling for the waves to stop coming in.

Modern gun businesses I see as transitioning to being a hub for transfers, gunsmithing services, and running indoor ranges. Sales will typically be smaller accessory items - reloading supplies, holsters, belts, etc. Things that can be bought as an impulse purchase. Realistically an actual gun is a significant investment for most people and the modern consumer is usually going to do what is financially sensible and seek out the lowest price - which 90% of the time leads to an internet sale. Doesn't mean that local shops can't still make money - you just have to accept that the method by which its made and certainly the volume may change.

hang fire
February 9, 2012, 04:12 AM
For years I have been doing business and bought several guns from a local GS owner. But when i saw a gun I wanted and asked would he accept it on his FFL. Would have thought I had grossly insulted him, he wouldn't even reply.

olafhardtB
February 9, 2012, 04:15 AM
The hands down most important activity of any store front retailer is to get people in the store. I sell myself more stuff than the staff sells me, but first I got to get into the store!

ElToro
February 9, 2012, 04:29 AM
you guys should be so lucky. theres a few FFLs that will do incoming transfers for $75 but the going rate is usually $100. that includes the $35 combined fed/state of CA fees. and nobody will take an incoming transfer from a private individual. private party face to face deals are $35

Nuclear
February 9, 2012, 05:12 AM
Overhead is there, whether you take transfers or sell existing inventory (or are just sitting around making no money), that's why it is called overhead.

I do try to buy locally, and I am much more likely to buy something if I can pick it up and be seduced by it, but I have bought over the internet because either the local shops don't carry what I want, or they are charging 30% more than I can buy it over the internet including the shipping and transfer fee!

Sgt_R
February 9, 2012, 05:16 AM
My local shops either won't do transfers at all, or want to charge outrageous prices for them ($45-50). On top of that, the mark-up in some of my local shops is absolutely insane (used Mossberg 500 cruiser $450, NIB Glock 19 Gen 3 w/ night sights $700, etc., and I wish I was joking).

As far as I'm concerned, this is the same as flat out telling me that they don't want my business. There's one place in town that I'll buy ammo from, because their prices are reasonable. For everything else, I drive an hour out of my way to give my money to someone who deserves it.

R

evan price
February 9, 2012, 05:40 AM
OK, so the FFL buys the gun himself from somewhere- and then it has to be logged into his bound book. He has to "Open package, sign for package, throw away empty package, be responsible for the package, secure documents for package, yada yada"...When he sells the gun he has to do the 4473 & NICS check anyway.

$35 for half an hour's work seems good to me, especially if he'd have to do it anyway. It's called "Cost of doing business"...but no inventory taxes, no carrying a gun on your inventory for weeks or months waiting for it to sell. Guaranteed $70 an hour income for doing nothing more than your job. I have no pity for FFLs who won't do transfers from Buds or anywhere else simply because it's "Too much work and not enough money"...

Marking up $300 guns to $499 won't fly anymore. Business is work. If you can't make money doing transfers, FINE. Don't do transfers. People will find someone else. And there's another reason not to bother visiting your store.

How much do you spend in advertising to bring customers in to your business? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a means by which customers PAY YOU to come into your business? Businesses do this all the time, they are called "Loss Leaders", a mark-down or advertised price that's low to persuade people to come into the business and buy things that are not on sale.

There's two FFLs I know who won't refuse transfers, but they instead charge absurb prices- one of them $75 plus 10% of the purchase price, one charges a flat $150. Go figure, they don't do transfers much. And I personally don't shop there because they like to charge more than MSRP on most of their new guns and darn near new price for used.

I use a small local shop that's a couple miles from me. I buy other stuff from them from time to time. And they only charge $35. Now, the only stuff I buy anymore is old guns, and if I got my C&R I might not need transfers anymore. I just don't see 5-screw long-action S&Ws sitting in the local gun cases anymore so they get found on Gunbroker. I'm not the kind of buyer who wants things that can be ordered from the distributor's catalog.

Bubba613
February 9, 2012, 06:05 AM
I love people telling me how to run my business.

I won't do transfers from Bud's. I didnt get into this business to be a shipping clerk. And Bud's business model will destroy the retail industry. People who see guns merely as commodities and want price price price will end up with no one to do transfers. People bemoan the loss of the LGS (and some of them deserve to go out of business) but then make guns commodities and pretty much insure it.

WardenWolf
February 9, 2012, 06:35 AM
Here's the thing: an FFL transfer fee is pure profit for a gun shop. They don't have to pay for the item, and they don't have to pay to ship it. All they have to do is receive it along with all the other items they receive each day, call you, and run the paperwork. They would have to do this same paperwork even if you bought it directly from them, but in this case they're just pocketing money for about 5 minutes of their time.

If local gun stores weren't a total ripoff, and actually carried the things I want, I'd gladly buy from them. However, many of us have very specific wants and needs that are not covered in the general selection of your average gun store. Fact of the matter is, though, when I can pay shipping cost plus FFL transfer fee, get the exact item I want, and still come out far ahead of the local gun store's pricing, where do you think I'm going to buy it?

Bubba613
February 9, 2012, 06:45 AM
f local gun stores weren't a total ripoff, and actually carried the things I want, I'd gladly buy from them

Not too many stores sell things for free.

Deanimator
February 9, 2012, 06:45 AM
I don't blame you for wanting to get a deal and buy from Buds, but do you actually spend any money with this FFL besides the transfer fees, for stuff you buy from Buds, etc? ( A lot of people don't) If not, he isn't making any money dealing with you and is probably making a smart business decision. A guy has to make a living, and he didn't get his FFL to loose money just doing transfers. The good news is you just need to go down the street to work with a someone who will play tat game. Might be worth your while to spend some real cash with him to keep the transfer relationship going. Just a thought.
I buy guns mailorder through FFLs precisely because local stores DON'T have what I want and generally aren't too motivated to get anything that I do want. I've found that in the Cleveland area, businesses in general (never mind gun stores) are "minimal effort". They tend to have the same boring stuff. They get what's easy to get and charge premium (and sometimes insane) prices for it. If you haven't got what I want and won't order it, don't expect me to just settle for whatever you've got lying around or can easily get. This attitude is exemplified by the restaurant who brought me sangria when they were out of burgundy because "they're both red".

Sorry, give me what I WANT or do without my money.

Deanimator
February 9, 2012, 06:50 AM
Not too many stores sell things for free.
Around here, not too many stores have what I want. Of course they sometimes have what I DON'T want for astonishing prices, like the store (now closed) in Cleveland that wanted more for a used Taurus PT-99 than most people wanted for a new Beretta 92.

Double Vision
February 9, 2012, 06:57 AM
I have never ordered a gun online, even though prices here are pretty darned steep.

Simply because I *like* walking into a gunshop. and i *like* the people that work there. and I *like* having a gunshop around. Call me odd. Were I a gun dealer, I would try to reach a certain price, but on the flipside ... I'd also expect something back for running a gunstore, letting people handle guns, talking guns ... preferably money.

Same here. If my LGS goes under my options become limited. I'll pay a couple of dollars more because ot that.

Hunterdad
February 9, 2012, 07:06 AM
Just do what one of my locaal FFL's do and charge $75 for a transfer.

BeerSleeper
February 9, 2012, 07:43 AM
Why don't the guys who insist they "aren't making enough money" on transfers just charge more for a transfer? I can understand if they are not willing to do it for $25, but that does not have to mean not to do it at all. If you're not willing to do it for $25, then do it for $50, or whatever cost you think is fair. It's a free market, set your price where you want it, and customers are free to take it or leave it.

stonecutter2
February 9, 2012, 08:24 AM
Seriously, it isn't, or at least not nearly $35 bucks!

He has an annual FFL fee to pay.
He has insurance it pay, on himself, his employees, and his business.
He has taxes to pay, local & state sales tax, property tax, inventory tax, income tax, plus a few others.

Then there is wages, Social Security, unemployment insurance, sick time, and other expenses on any employees.

And lets not forget rent on the building.

All so you can go into his store and coon-finger the guns, then undercut him by buying the gun from Bud's!

Then expect him to pay his phone bill so he can call the ATF and do your background check to give you the gun?

And then keep your record in his ATF "bound book" for the rest of the years he can manage to stay in business?

Mercy! Mercy! Mercy!
The scoundrel really stuck it too you didn't he!!

rc
If the gun shop only did one transfer per year, it would cost like $200,000 or something. The idea is that because they're doing so many, they only have to charge X amount, which gives the shop a fair income, and charges the customer a fair price.

natman
February 9, 2012, 08:45 AM
To all the guys who think an FFL is getting rich charging $35 for a transfer.

Don't just sit there, take advantage of this gold mine. Get a storefront, pay rent, pay utilities, pay taxes, pay insurance, etc, etc, etc and undercut the greedy SOB. See how long that lasts.

--------------

Back to the original topic, which before this became another FFL fee whine tasting, was drop shipping from Bud's. I can see how the OP's dealer might be concerned, depending on how the paperwork is handled. The FFL has to login the gun, but he can't very well log it in as having come from Bud's - Bud's may never have had possession of it.

Now I'm sure that Bud's has worked all this out, but it is a bit unusual. And FFL dealers don't do unusual very well.

jrdolall
February 9, 2012, 09:21 AM
The local FFL I use has a storefront and sells about 500 guns per year. Mostly junk that he buys super cheap. He does transfers for $20. I think he has the business more for a tax write off than anything else. There is always a new F250 sitting out front with the name of the business prominently dislayed and he is open 3 days a week.

WVleo
February 9, 2012, 09:27 AM
Last gun I bought new I went to the LGS with a On-line quote already in hand and asked if they could get Me the gun. Dealer quoted Me $70 more than the total cost with shipping and transfer fee. I remarked I could get it at XXX cost on-line ( as I had used this shop to ship a firearm to a Son in Fla. and had one transfered to Me from Him ) . He went to His phone for a minute or 2 and said He could match the price. First one came in the wrong configuration , but 1 week later He had the correct model that I happily purchased. He did end up putting the incorrect model in His showcase at the original price He quoted Me and it sold in a week. So He ends up with both sales. A LGS is in business to make money and the smart ones do, but I could care less if He stays in business or not ( thats His burden, not mine ) I care about My finances and keeping as much of mine in My pocket as possible. His shop is growing as He knows how to work with both educated buyers and those who come in off the street with no knowledge of internet pricing. I don't expect Him to educate Me on the cost of a firearm, but do want to work with a good businessman who knows there is more than 1 way to approach business. I've been to many LGS who thought there inventory was Gold and it sits, they blame there cheap customers LOL LOL.......WVleo

R.W.Dale
February 9, 2012, 09:31 AM
Have you ever heard of a Gunshop refuse to sell ammunition that would be used in a gun that was purchased at wal mart?

NO of course not. That would be stupid after all shops are in place to make money even if its only a few bucks.

AND YET a shop refusing to do transfers is essentially doing just that on a transaction with a much higher profit margin than a box of 30/06 bullets.

I could somewhat see refusing transfers if you're so busy that you're staying late every day to file them. If not you're simply turning away paying customers over your indignation that they didn't buy from YOU!

You wont stay in business much longer in this day and age doing that. The internet has eliminated your monopoly on a community simply based on distance.

posted via tapatalk using android.

SleazyRider
February 9, 2012, 09:38 AM
My local Ginder Mountain wants $75.00 for a transfer. The store doesn't seem to be doing particularly well.

Seems that some of us need to review the mechanics of "free enterprise."

Bubbles
February 9, 2012, 10:01 AM
Back to the original topic, which before this became another FFL fee whine tasting, was drop shipping from Bud's. I can see how the OP's dealer might be concerned, depending on how the paperwork is handled. The FFL has to login the gun, but he can't very well log it in as having come from Bud's - Bud's may never have had possession of it.

Now I'm sure that Bud's has worked all this out, but it is a bit unusual. And FFL dealers don't do unusual very well.
Not unusual at all, the included paperwork states that the gun came from Sports South, whose FFL # is x-xx-xxx-xx-xxxxx. No problem logging it into the A&D book.

We do transfers from Bud's all day. I don't mind as it drives people to the shop - people who often use our other, high-$ services. Other than maintaining a web site and keeping business cards on-hand, both of which are pretty minimal costs, we have more work than we have time and we haven't had to pay for advertising.

drsfmd
February 9, 2012, 10:11 AM
First, I find it ironic that the people who complain loudest are those without an FFL, and those who are willing to support them are the kitchen table FFL's who don't have a storefront or staff to pay. You guys don't get it... places like Bud's are RUINING the gun business, and they will eventually put all of your local gun shops out of business.

I'm not saying that you have to pay MSRP on everything, but can you really expect your LGS to markup 1 or 2 percent and be able to keep the doors open? Transfers just don't pay the bills. Around our place, transfers are a privilidge for good customers, and we will only accept them on used items or new things that we don't carry (but if we have one sitting in a display case or in a rack, we don't be accepting your transfer on the same item...)

Why is this? People want good deals. Shop A only makes $10 per gun but sells 200 per week. Shop b makes 35-100 per gun but only sells maybe 5 per week.

Both those shops will be gone in short order. Unless they are selling TONS of ammo and accessories, they aren't making enough to cover insurance and taxes, much less pay a staff, keep new inventory coming in, etc...

macadore
February 9, 2012, 10:32 AM
I do my transfers at the ranged where I shoot. I pick up the gun and shoot it while I'm there. Everyone wins.

mgmorden
February 9, 2012, 10:33 AM
You guys don't get it... places like Bud's are RUINING the gun business, and they will eventually put all of your local gun shops out of business.

That's a matter of opinion. I think it's actually the LGS's that don't get it. The firearms business was ruined for a long time. Online sales have gone a long way to fix it. I personally couldn't care less if the local shops that won't adapt go out of business.

The free market is a cut-throat world. Customers will do what they can do get the cheapest possible price with the least amount of effort. Retailers will either provide that price, or shift their focus area to another offering which is significantly attractive to the customer from either a monetary standpoint or is significantly more convenient. Suggesting that the customer pay more than necessary just so that a shop can keep their doors open amounts to little more than begging.

I don't see how people expect to convince people by warning that their actions will cause the demise of a business model that they currently don't support. Yes if you don't buy guns locally then the local shops will go out out business . . . so that we can continue to not buy guns locally. What a shame.

esquare
February 9, 2012, 10:42 AM
I used to think that it was good to support the LGS. Then I looked around at a bunch of them near me. Some didn't take transfers and wouldn't order anything at reasonable prices. One was asking $350 for a used rossi 38 that sells new at Academy for $270 down the road. The best shop I could find was a tiny little shop that had almost no inventory. I went in and asked if they could get me x. He went over to his computer, pulled up buds and added $50 to the price. :-)

I went home, ordered from buds and paid his $35 transfer fee. He didn't care as he didn't have to plunk down the capital for the order - I did.

The truth is that gun shops have a government mandated competitive advantage in the marketplace - we MUST use them to get our guns one way or another. Frankly, this seems like it props up a lot of stores that the market would have closed down a long time ago and replaced with stores run by better business people who could complete with online sales.

So, we all suffer, the same way we all suffer when government mandates create a competitive advantage for any sector in the economy.

If those with FFLs feel so upset about having to deal with buds transfers, would you support legislation that would allow them to ship directly to CCW holders? I mean, what value is the FFL adding anyway if it's going to someone who's already vetted?

Geneseo1911
February 9, 2012, 10:44 AM
My dealer tells me that he makes about the same money on a transfer as he does on a gun he orders or carries himself. He also said he'd just as soon do the transfer and not have to use his own capital to acquire the gun.

If I want something specific, he'll call his distributors and get a price. Sometimes he can beat the internet, sometimes he can't, but he's just as happy either way.

And the things he has in stock are priced pretty close to the internet price + his transfer charge. It's almost like he has the ability to use the internet to check prices. Amazing.

Before all the grumpy FFL's on here tell me he's going to go out of business, he just expanded and hired another helper.

NinjaFeint
February 9, 2012, 10:48 AM
I have a bunch of local stores that do transfers but one of them will not do Bud's, seems he's had issues with them.

That said, my local stores are close enough to bud's price, I just buy there anyway.

esquare
February 9, 2012, 10:48 AM
And about supporting the local gun stores, NONE of the stores around me carry any reasonable selection of holsters, belts, grips, accessories, books, etc. None do custom gunsmithing at any level. None do engraving. With holsters alone, they could be adding $50 profit to most pistol sales they make easily. $75 on a trigger job for each revolver sold, etc. I have a feeling this is the norm, not the exception.

98C5
February 9, 2012, 10:51 AM
I used to have them shipped to an FFL gunstore in Roanoke. Last time I did, the owner was really hateful and almost denied me picking it up. I told them I never had an issue before. He started on this "you need to buy locally", blah, blah, blah rant. I understand his point but I wasn't going to drop another $125 for the same gun just to appease him.

drsfmd
February 9, 2012, 11:02 AM
That's a matter of opinion. I think it's actually the LGS's that don't get it. The firearms business was ruined for a long time. Online sales have gone a long way to fix it. I personally couldn't care less if the local shops that won't adapt go out of business.

The free market is a cut-throat world. Customers will do what they can do get the cheapest possible price with the least amount of effort. Retailers will either provide that price, or shift their focus area to another offering which is significantly attractive to the customer from either a monetary standpoint or is significantly more convenient. Suggesting that the customer pay more than necessary just so that a shop can keep their doors open amounts to little more than begging.

I don't see how people expect to convince people by warning that their actions will cause the demise of a business model that they currently don't support. Yes if you don't buy guns locally then the local shops will go out out business . . . so that we can continue to not buy guns locally. What a shame.

And you'll have no where to get those transfers from. And no where to buy ammo on short notice (last time I checked, Walmart only stocks a few calibers). And no where to get a bore sighting done on that new rifle (and complain about spending $10 for the service).

If you don't like the prices at your LGS, DON'T GO THERE... but also don't ask him to cut his own throat to make a pittance off of you.

Gun guys are a funny bunch... on another forum, guys were complaining that the wife of a LGS owner drove a BMW, and therefore the guy must be ripping them off... apparently if my truck isn't more beat up than your truck, I'm cheating you... *sigh*

drcook
February 9, 2012, 11:05 AM
Around here, the shops that want to charge the highest prices are still in the dingy little building on the corner lot, with a couple of hangers on holding up the gun cases. The business owners that understood the concept of volume sales, whether it be transfers, ammo, etc now have sizeable establishments selling clothes, boots, safes,boats, fishing equipment, ie: all sorts of outdoor related sporting goods and are doing very well.

Three of them that I know of formed/joined a buyer's cooperative so that they get their merchandise at a less expensive cost basis than their competitors due to their volume. These business owner's are accumulating wealth and prosperity a little at a time from LOTS of REPEAT customers instead of trying to hit a homerun off a couple folks. They understand that a repeat customer can become a customer for life as opposed to the person who buys at a LGS, finds out that he/she overpaid by enough money that they are mad at themselves for being taken advantage of and then vowing to never return there again.

Additionally, figure out the per hour rate of doing transfers. A LGS that is transfer friendly pays 1 hour of the hourly wage of 1 employee every time a transfer is done, with a little left over. So if total expenditure of time is 15 even 20 minutes to do recieve the package, write some figures in a book, make a phone call, finalize the transfer, that still leaves 40 minutes to generate a sale whose profit is then unencumbered from wages. They just don't get it that a transfer is a service they are selling. Plus there doesn't have to be any money invested to have it set in the display case for months/years on end until finally, in order to recoup the money, it is priced where it should have been and finally sells. The bad thing is that money has been tied up and unuseable, instead of generating income.

Bubba613
February 9, 2012, 11:10 AM
The free market is a cut-throat world. Customers will do what they can do get the cheapest possible price with the least amount of effort.
And thatr right there is the problem. People are only smart enough to compare two numbers and decide which one is higher. They are in no way equipped to figure out which deal offers better value. Some people don't see the distinction.

The LGS ought to be adding value through a string of things. I know mine does. If they don't they deserve to go out of business.
If you want to see what online retailing does, check out your local bookshop. Oops, the local bookshop, where you used to browse for hours, is gone. The owner who knew every one of the 13k books in inventory is a WalMart greeter today.

That doesnt include the costs to states of lost tax revenue. One of my big issues with transfers is not the price--I can typically match the price or do better. My issue is the customer won't pay the sales tax and doesn't figure it in making comparisons.

drsfmd
February 9, 2012, 11:16 AM
A LGS that is transfer friendly pays 1 hour of the hourly wage of 1 employee every time a transfer is done, with a little left over. So if total expenditure of time is 15 even 20 minutes to do recieve the package, write some figures in a book, make a phone call, finalize the transfer, that still leaves 40 minutes to generate a sale whose profit is then unencumbered from wages.

You grossly underestimate the time that it takes. Moreover, making an hour worth wages by having my employee do an hour worth of work means ZERO PROFIT. If my sales guy can't at least TRIPLE his hourly wage in profit for the store, we don't make any money...

My issue is the customer won't pay the sales tax and doesn't figure it in making comparisons.

Of course, they still owe that tax in the form of a "use tax" in most (all?) states, but given the opportunity, they cheat on their taxes and duck paying that one.

esquare
February 9, 2012, 11:17 AM
@ Bubba613 and drsfmd - would you support legislation that would allow buds to ship directly to CCW holders?

nosmr2
February 9, 2012, 11:24 AM
Another pile on the LGS thread. Mine said he was going to start charging $100 for Buds and CDNN transfers. His store his decision. A pawn shop close to my office charges $25 and doesn't give me any grief.

As far as the overhead argument goes, I seem a little lost. You cannot save your time on a shelf, just like hotels cannot keep an inventory of rooms not rented. That's why hotels will now rent a room for a little about their basic costs (cleaning, electricity, supplies, etc) through Priceline or one of the others instead of letting it sit vacant overnight. If you are busy in your gun store, doing whatever it takes to make your store profitable then you could potentially be losing money dealing with us and our $35 transfers. But if you're just kicked up on a stool hanging out then $35 is $35.

But once again, it's your store and it's my money.

mgmorden
February 9, 2012, 11:25 AM
And you'll have no where to get those transfers from.

As already stated - the shop I use for transfers SPECIALIZES in transfers. Its what they do, and they're doing quite well in it. Rather than whining about an inevitable change in the market - they adapted.

Another big shop in the area (who I know of pretty much no one who buys actual guns from them) opened a very sucessful indoor range. They hold CWP training classes there on a near weekly basis and also do other promotional events throughout the week (shooting classes specifically for women, or small competitions).

They figured out something that works and will make them money. Other shops have to do the same. The business model of hawking identical guns as what the customer can get online for $50-100 less even after shipping and transfer is simply no more.

mgmorden
February 9, 2012, 11:31 AM
If you want to see what online retailing does, check out your local bookshop. Oops, the local bookshop, where you used to browse for hours, is gone. The owner who knew every one of the 13k books in inventory is a WalMart greeter today.

You mean a guy who was selling a service that people didn't want to pay a premium for went under? I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you!

Now, realistically - a lot of the smart shop owners have started selling coffee instead of books. People don't want to buy the books, but they do still want the social interaction of going, hanging out, and feeling like part of the group. Enter an alternate business model.

The public doesn't owe anyone the ability to stay in business. They will get what they want as efficiently as possible. It's the onus of the business owner to provide something the public wants at a price they're willing to pay. Buds is doing that. Shops that can't compete against Buds should find a way to make money WITH Buds, or at least in spite of them.

2ifbyC
February 9, 2012, 11:32 AM
When I was a boy, there used to be ďmom and popĒ stores on nearly every block of our small town. Where are they now? Supermarkets came in and they went out of business. Milk man you say? - Gone!

Sears used to be the biggest retailer. Itís ironic that K-Mart bought them out and the holding company is barely hanging on. Then thereís Grants, Montgomery Wards, G C Murphy, and a plethora of others Ė all out of business.

It used to be manufacturers would dictate its production runs to its retailers. Now Wal-Mart dictates to the manufacturers when it wants production runs.

Itís called capitalism. Business changes as do business models. First off, you have to be in the right business. Then as the model changes, you must adapt and look for opportunities to maximize profit and minimize cost; those that do not, fail.

The American consumer owes the business owner nothing. Itís the business ownerís duty to earn the consumerís business.

I would venture to say selling firearms is a thriving business in America. What business model the LGS executes will have a lot to do with their success or failure in this Internet age.

98C5
February 9, 2012, 11:35 AM
When I was a boy, there used to be ďmom and popĒ stores on nearly every block of our small town. Where are they now? Supermarkets came in and they went out of business. Milk man you say? - Gone!

Sears used to be the biggest retailer. Itís ironic that K-Mart bought them out and the holding company is barely hanging on. Then thereís Grants, Montgomery Wards, G C Murphy, and a plethora of others Ė all out of business.

It used to be manufacturers would dictate its production runs to its retailers. Now Wal-Mart dictates to the manufacturers when it wants production runs.

Itís called capitalism. Business changes as do business models. First off, you have to be in the right business. Then as the model changes, you must adapt and look for opportunities to maximize profit and minimize cost; those that do not, fail.

The American consumer owes the business owner nothing. Itís the business ownerís duty to earn the consumerís business.

I would venture to say selling firearms is a thriving business in America. What business model the LGS executes will have a lot to do with their success or failure in this Internet age.

Well said and I agree. As much as I hate to see these shops close, times change. These shops need to keep up with the changing atomsphere or find a new business/career.

Bubbles
February 9, 2012, 11:42 AM
Of course, they still owe that tax in the form of a "use tax" in most (all?) states, but given the opportunity, they cheat on their taxes and duck paying that one.
I fully expect that will change over the next 5 years as other states besides CA and WA figure out that they can snatch that revenue stream without having to vote to raise tax rates. There are quite a few FFL's quietly lobbying for it in an attempt to improve their own competitiveness compared to the online sellers.

I disagree that drop-shipping is ruining the gun business. It's widely used in almost every other industry - look at Amazon as an example. I could buy food, clothing, toys, games, electronics, car parts - and yet I'll still shop at my local stores for a lot, especially high-end items.

drsfmd
February 9, 2012, 11:46 AM
@ Bubba613 and drsfmd - would you support legislation that would allow buds to ship directly to CCW holders?

Yes, please make a specific exemption in the law for Buds to be able to ship guns directly to CCW holders.

Seriously... the examples that you guys come up with are positively specious.

esquare
February 9, 2012, 11:51 AM
Yes, please make a specific exemption in the law for Buds to be able to ship guns directly to CCW holders.

Seriously... the examples that you guys come up with are positively specious.

Come on now - it's entirely feasible to state that the federal law could be changed so that FFLs (not just buds) could ship directly to a CCW holder's address with proof of a current license and verification by the issuing agency. Would you support that?

macadore
February 9, 2012, 11:53 AM
Yes, please make a specific exemption in the law for Buds to be able to ship guns directly to CCW holders.

Seriously... the examples that you guys come up with are positively specious.
Actually, it's not. At one time nearly anyone could get an ffl. IIRC, that changed under Clinton. I would support a national ccw that would let anyone with one of those buy and carry any weapon one could conceal. That would include smsgs. sbrs, sbs, short swords, clubs and so on. I realize this would cause heart failure among the anti-gun crowd. Why is this specious? Gun control was specious at one time. Getting rid of it is no more specious.

Bubba613
February 9, 2012, 11:54 AM
It's entirely feasible that the COngress will simply repeal the GCA. And the NFA along with it.

Personally it wouldn't bother me. I would still have a viable business because I dont sell on price. If people want to "do research" online and pay lots of money they don't have to in order to get something that won't work for them and without any support after the sale that's fine with me.

mgmorden
February 9, 2012, 11:55 AM
Come on now - it's entirely feasible to state that the federal law could be changed so that FFLs (not just buds) could ship directly to a CCW holder's address with proof of a current license and verification by the issuing agency. Would you support that?

Either that or modify the C&R license to something more akin to a "Personal FFL". Let people receive shipments directly with the same bookkeeping requirements, but with the same restrictions on engaging in business. Afterall there's nothing about the age of most C&R firearms that makes them any less deadly or dangerous.

jay21
February 9, 2012, 12:02 PM
Anyone who can legally own a firearms can get an FFL. The "clinton" restrictions are internet rumor for the most part. FFL's are "shall issue" not "may issue." If you comply with state and local laws and can demonstrate a "profit motive" you will be issued your FFL. Local laws are usually the hardest part, the ATF regs for getting one are pretty simple.

Armed012002
February 9, 2012, 12:11 PM
Why don't you ask your local gun shop to setup some kind of program where you buy x amount of merchandise in the store and, in return, receive a "firearm transfer voucher".

Seems like a great idea to me. It would be great if I could buy $25 to $50 in reloading supplies rather than paying some guy the same amount of money for filling out paperwork.

Ryanxia
February 9, 2012, 12:18 PM
My LGS doesn't charge a transfer fee for anyone and I still never order online because his prices are better 90% of the time and the other 10% he is close enough that I don't mind spending a few bucks extra going through him.
He has a small profit margin on the guns he sells but because his prices are so good he has a very high volume. That doesn't work for every gun shop but I can't complain :)

drsfmd
February 9, 2012, 12:29 PM
Why don't you ask your local gun shop to setup some kind of program where you buy x amount of merchandise in the store and, in return, receive a "firearm transfer voucher".

Seems like a great idea to me. It would be great if I could buy $25 to $50 in reloading supplies rather than paying some guy the same amount of money for filling out paperwork.

That's an even worse deal for the dealer! He's making just a few dollars TOPS on a $25 dollar purchase, and you want a free transfer voucher with that? Sheesh...

Perhaps for every $2500 you spend or something like that, but for $25? Get real...

FTG-05
February 9, 2012, 12:51 PM
My local FFL charges $0 for FFL transfers.

So far, I've transferred two guns through him; same gun actually, once from the seller, once from S&W. Every time I go in there I buy either .22 WRM or .44 Special ammo. I've also bought one rifle (Savage 93F in .22 WRM). Great guy to do business with and he's a Bud's preferred FFL dealer. He's in north Alabama in Athens, if you're interested in his name, PM me.

The other big gun shop in the area (LP&P) won't do Bud's transfers. No problem, they won't get my business either.

My .02.

dogtown tom
February 9, 2012, 01:32 PM
gfpd707 :....He told me that he was concerned that there where legal issues with recieving guns from them. He claims that the guns do not come from them but instead come from other suppliers and believes that this might get him in trouble.....
1. Your dealer is an idiot.
2. Receiving a gun purchased from Buds, drop shipped by a distributor is no different than any other transfer he has ever done.
3. Your dealer is an idiot.

Now for my daily rant.....:evil:

All the dealers whining about Bud's destroying the retail gun business are whiners, pure and simple. Before the GCA '68 gave us the FFL system, ANYONE could buy and sell guns without any need for a license. Mail order commerce in firearms was THE model in pre '68 America, EVERY major retailer like Sears, JC Penneys carried guns ans did the hardware store in every town.....But you're bitching about Bud's,

You've enjoyed a near monopoly since 1968, yet whine about a business model that you could do yourself. Seems more like jealousy than a true concern for a healthy gun industry.:rolleyes:

Dealers who got fat and happy for years and thought they could continue to sell guns at MSRP to an unsuspecting public will watch their business model wither and die if they don't adapt.

You whine about WalMart- then sell what WalMart doesn't. Wally don't sell handguns or 7.65 Argentine, so why don't you?:scrutiny:

You whine about Bud's- then adopt their business model or beat their pricing. No one is stopping you.

You whine about low profit margins- yet you sneer at $35 transfers (pure gravy, because you invest the same amount of time as a gun you stocked, yet you have $0.00 of YOUR money tied up in that gun.

You whine about a transfer taking thirty minutes- good grief, if it takes you half an hour per customer it isn't Bud's fault....its your own.

You whine about folks not supporting the local gun store- then give me a reason. My local gun store doesn't automatically get my $$$ as if it is their birthright....the LGS isn't on welfare and isnt entitled to my $$$ any more than any other business in the country.

I don't stock guns, I do transfers. The local gun stores could put me out of business tomorrow if they had a reasonable transfer fee and were a little more customer friendly. Since they don't and aren't....I do over a hundred transfers each month. Thats one hundred gun sales or transfers that I'M taking away from them each month....and I'm not the only guy in town doing transfers.

End of rant...it lunch time.:D

jrdolall
February 9, 2012, 01:41 PM
I was out looking for a pistol for my wife to carry yesterday and visited 3 stores, Academy and two LGS that carry a decent selection. The oldest store, has been in business in Opelika AL for about 500 years, was $50 and $80 higher on the EXACT same model S&W and Ruger revolvers than was Academy. I asked if that was the best he could do and he knocked $19 off of each. The other LGS was willing to match Academy on the S&W but did not have that model Ruger. I have never bought a firearm from Academy and the price on the sticker is the price which is okay by me since I am not a haggler at heart. I want to support all my local stores, be it fishing lures, guns, or groceries, but I absolutely will NOT pay 25% more just to keep you in business. That is why Sears, Kmart etc are dying and why so many local stores are now gone. The stores that are willing to change will survive. I want to touch and see a gun rather than order online even if it is a new gun. It is easier to walk in to the LGS, look at a gun and walk out for $400 than look online, place my order, call my FFL, wait a few days and then go pick it up for a total of $375.

Apuuli
February 9, 2012, 01:41 PM
How did LGS's stay open during the days when anyone could order a gun from Sears Catalogue and have it shipped directly to their door?

A transfer fee is an opportunity for the FFL to skim cream off the top of a business transaction they shouldn't be involved with in the first place.

Edit: I got scooped by dogtown who said it all much better!

Bubba613
February 9, 2012, 01:52 PM
Before the GCA there were no gun stores. There were hardware stores, sporting goods stores, etc. They all sold guns.
Dogtown's rant is just that. He doesn't sell guns. He is merely an order clerk for those who do.
The internet model destroys what ought to be a good relationship between LGA and customer. Granted, some dealers havent gotten that memo. But that doesnt mean the model isn't correct.
Bud's big advantage typically is that the customer is stiffing the state on sales tax. Once Congress reforms this and institutes a uniform tax rate Bud's advantages will go away for dealers who are doing their job.

mgmorden
February 9, 2012, 02:10 PM
Dogtown's rant is just that. He doesn't sell guns. He is merely an order clerk for those who do.

Your mistake is that assuming that there is something wrong with this. A business is there to make money. What they do to make that money is wholly irrelevant. Whilst the traditional guys are pointing fingers and making fun of the "clerks", those clerks are laughing all the way to the bank while they put the others out of business.

Armed012002
February 9, 2012, 03:05 PM
That's an even worse deal for the dealer! He's making just a few dollars TOPS on a $25 dollar purchase, and you want a free transfer voucher with that? Sheesh...

Perhaps for every $2500 you spend or something like that, but for $25? Get real...

So I won't buy ANYTHING from them then. How about that?

There are plenty of people who do only FFL transfers.

Buds here I come.

coebam
February 9, 2012, 03:15 PM
As an FFL for 6 years I disagree & I charge $25 to transfer. I'd be happy all day to sit on my chair & call people to fax my ffl to while I make bank all day long and never worry about inventory either.
Your lame FFL is upset cause he is jealous of Buds Guns, in my opinion
Heck yes! Anyone around Lawrence, Ks needing a transfer let me know. Money is money. I don't care if I make the profit selling a firearm or making the profit on a transfer. The LGS sounds like a guy that won't be around much longer thinking like that.

timhernandez
February 9, 2012, 04:52 PM
Everytime I read one of these threads I am so thankful for my local gun shop and, feel very sorry for those of you out there that don't have a shop like I do.

In Metro Detroit, there are many, many LGS. Some are very old school, some are very progressive in their business models, etc. We are fortunate to have a choice.

In my mind, it has always been on the LGS to adapt to the business climate to guarantee their own success, like with any other business.

dogtown tom
February 9, 2012, 05:03 PM
Bubba613 ....Dogtown's rant is just that. He doesn't sell guns. He is merely an order clerk for those who do....

Your lack of understanding is why I'm successful.
I'm not an "order clerk"........I don't place the order, take the order, take payment or do anything of the sort.

To receive a gun I do EXACTLY what you would do if ordering a gun from a distributor....I send a copy of my FFL.

There is virtually no difference in me receiving a gun from Davidsons, RSR, Lipsey's, or Sports South and receiving one from Bud's, Impact or from an individual who sold his gun on GunBroker.

To claim that Bud's (or any internet retailer) only makes a profit because they don't charge sales tax shows why many LGS go out of business....they just don't get it:
1. Volume- Bud's ships more guns in one day than most LGS sell in a month. Volume= discounts from distributors and manufacturers that your LGS (or I ) will never get.
2. Shipping- Bud's and other internet retailers get massive discounts from UPS/FedEx due to the volume of packages they ship. When Bud's has a distributor drop ship it saves them even more $$$.
3. Variety- Bud's beats 99% of LGS in selection. "What ya see, is what I got" is not an unheard of phrase in a LGS. Of course the LGS could order it for you......but the buyer could do that legwork himself.

roadchoad
February 9, 2012, 05:16 PM
Couple thoughts:

Maybe it's just me, but I've noticed some gun shop owners are not savvy business people. Online sales are not going away, they are changing the market. Any dealer who fears change and ignores online commerce will be going under soon, only to be replaced by someone who embraces the new market structure.

Secondly, FFL transfers get people into the store. Maybe these guys should start stocking more ammo and accessories for the guns that they see coming from Bud's. Better yet, perhaps these store should track the guns they see coming from online sales, note the top sellers that Bud's conveniently has listed on their site, and stock those models at prices that beat Bud's+shipping+transfer? Gee what a crazy idea!

roadchoad
February 9, 2012, 05:41 PM
I keep seeing some form of this silliness in the thread:

The LGS will close! Then where will you get accessories/ammo/gunsmithing services/bore sighting/parts/service work?

That other part of the business is of value to the consumer, right? The LGS is making money off that, right? How will a shop fail if they have a diverse business model in which not all of the income is dependent on gun sales? How much value is a LGS that only sells overpriced guns, and does not provide any other services or products to the consumer? Not a good model. Any shop that does offer those services and charges appropriate prices will flourish.

Gun and accessory sales are through the roof right now. As rare as GSs are in my area, any shop that closes it's doors must not have had much to offer the customer.

Bubba613
February 9, 2012, 06:34 PM
I'm not an "order clerk"........I don't place the order, take the order, take payment or do anything of the sort.

You merely take orders and fill out paperwork. If you're happy doing that, more power to you.

R.W.Dale
February 9, 2012, 06:58 PM
You merely take orders and fill out paperwork. If you're happy doing that, more power to you.

No offense but that's all you do too.

You make orders and fill out paperwork.

Driving this hatred of the online sale is the false belief that an online sale is a sale you would have made.

9 in 10 times an online sale is for something odd and not avalible locally. You're not going to convince the guy looking for an sp101 in 9mm to settle for a $450 savage axis instead. The majority of the time folks will buy an item locally to avoid the online hoops provided its priced within $100 of the online gun. If its more than that overhead or not the item is simply overpriced.

True story a year ago I decided I wanted a new ruger 77/44. Well a lgs had one in stock for $690

Knowing what they retail for I happily drove across town to my preferred pawn shop and transfer dealer and asked him "what can you get me a 77/44 for OTD?"

he looked it up with his distributor and shot me a price of just under $500 and I ordered it on the spot. My 77/44 has since been traded off for a. 223 m77 all weather. Their 77/44 is still sitting on the shelf.

When I go to buy myself a 4.2" sp101 in a couple weeks ill simply stop by my pet pawnshop without shopping the other store.

posted via tapatalk using android.

evan price
February 9, 2012, 07:30 PM
I've got no problem with gunstores charging for their services- gunsmithing, range time, FFL transfers... That's a service and they can charge whatever they want, and that price depends on how much time they have to spend and how much they want the business. Don't want transfers? That's entirely your choice. Charge exhorbitant price for transfers? Your option entirely. Not my place to demand a change. I'll just take my money to someone else and probably a lot of my other business.

What's the difference from the customer going to Bud's (or Gunbroker) and finding the exact model he wants, paying for it, having it shipped, and paying the local FFL a reasonable transfer fee-

-Or, the LGS does the legwork, orders in the gun (tying up HIS capital), does the exact same paperwork, shipping/receiving grunt work, and enters it in his bound book and then waits to be paid by the customer while the banks float his money for a couple points.

What's the difference?

Oh yeah- the dirty, rotten scoundrel customer now knows the exact invoice price of the gun and won't stand for a 30% markup on the sale price for doing the job of a shipping clerk.

In my previous post I said this- and I stand behind it:

How much money do stores spend on advertising to get customers to come in the door?
Wouldn't it be nice to have a service that is fairly priced that customers PAY TO USE that has almost negligible actual expense that brings potential customers in the door?

Sure, you have overhead, and labor. Might as well use those expenses to bring in a little extra cash. I've never seen a gunstore that was so busy that they didn't have time to receive one more box.

Local gunstores don't like Bud's for the same reasons some ranges won't allow you to shoot any ammo but theirs, or that claim any brass expended is theirs- greed. No reloads, I understand. No lead rounds, I get it, EPA and expensive filters.
"No Winchester White Box"... that's greed.

Rmart30
February 9, 2012, 08:01 PM
After the run around from a LGS I had patronized for 20+ years I found 2 local pawn shops that love to do FFL transfers. They are happy to see me every time I walk in the door and they dont try to talk me into buying a model of firearm they have in stock when it isnt what Im looking for.

I agree with trying to support LGS but most of the guns I buy online or have shipped in are used guns that a LGS would never have on his shelf probably ever.

Check out some other places for your Next FFL transfer. Try posting on armslist for your area and see who other people are using locally to do theirs.

dogtown tom
February 9, 2012, 08:13 PM
Bubba613 Quote:
I'm not an "order clerk"........I don't place the order, take the order, take payment or do anything of the sort.

You merely take orders and fill out paperwork. If you're happy doing that, more power to you.
No sir. You would be wrong. What part of the above is not clear?:banghead:
I've not taken an order for a gun since September, but I average 100+ transfers each month....I hope you understand that I don't order the guns that are being transferred in. My customers buy them from GunBroker auctions, Bud's and gun forums like THR.

I fill out the exact same paperwork as you.

The Sarge
February 9, 2012, 08:14 PM
If your FFL wont do what you want/need go find one that will and be happy.

godale
February 9, 2012, 08:19 PM
now that someone mentioned harware stores i remember my dad buying guns at western auto.

jay21
February 9, 2012, 08:31 PM
To claim that Bud's (or any internet retailer) only makes a profit because they don't charge sales tax shows why many LGS go out of business....they just don't get it:
1. Volume- Bud's ships more guns in one day than most LGS sell in a month. Volume= discounts from distributors and manufacturers that your LGS (or I ) will never get.
2. Shipping- Bud's and other internet retailers get massive discounts from UPS/FedEx due to the volume of packages they ship. When Bud's has a distributor drop ship it saves them even more $$$.
3. Variety- Bud's beats 99% of LGS in selection. "What ya see, is what I got" is not an unheard of phrase in a LGS. Of course the LGS could order it for you......but the buyer could do that legwork himself.
QFT! I have referred customers to Buds and offered the transfer on certain guns i could not come close to. It would be nice to be the "seller" but would rather just have a customer. It seems to work as most return for future sales/transfers.

danez71
February 9, 2012, 08:48 PM
Dogtown Tom said:
There is virtually no difference in me receiving a gun from Davidsons, RSR, Lipsey's, or Sports South and receiving one from Bud's, Impact or from an individual who sold his gun on GunBroker.


Well... thats just false according to my favorite FFL. He says he gets a portion of the sale and NOT just a transfer fee. Thats a BIG difference.

Anyways... it doesnt matter too much anyways.


The bottom line is this... the consumer can shop where ever they want. The business can run their business how ever they want.

But if the consumer consistantly only shops at places at Wallmart or the internet because of price.... then, IMO, the consumer just forfeited their right to complain that the people at Walmart dont know anything or complain that they have to ship their gun to the mfg because there isnt a gun shop around anymore.

If you want rock bottom prices... you also get rock bottom of eveything else that goes along with it.


Me personally, I want rock bottom prices on commodities like food and gas. There really isnt any service, skill, or knowledge the vendor can provide with those. Its either good food/gas or not.


Me personally, I dont mind paying a little extra for things that service, skill, and knowledge play a part in me getting the most of my purchase.

YMMV

Birch Knoll
February 9, 2012, 09:18 PM
Well... thats just false according to my favorite FFL. He says he gets a portion of the sale

Well, he actually gets the whole sale, not a portion. But he had to lay out his own cash to purchase the firearm first.

NOT just a transfer fee. Thats a BIG difference.

Not so big as you might think. Margins are fairly slim on most new firearms, if you want competitive pricing. While the profit a dealer makes on a firearm is probably somewhat higher than a typical transfer fee, the dealer has to invest perhaps ten times what he expects to make on the sale in order to buy the inventory, which could well then sit on the shelf for months.

Transfers require no investment and take minimal time to perform. What's not to love?

jerkface11
February 9, 2012, 09:34 PM
I love how people keep bringing up the fixed costs of doing business as a reason to not make money off a transfer. You have to pay the bills and your employees no matter what. There is no reason to not make the extra cash off of a transfer. Pawn shops understand that Gun shops do not.

jon_in_wv
February 9, 2012, 09:46 PM
My LGS charges a 10% markup + sales tax if they order a gun for you. They charge $25 bucks for a transfer fee if you order it yourself and you don't pay sales tax. Normally it is cheaper to order it yourself. They don't seem to mind either way as long as they can get your business.

I'm not sure why people think you should pay large markups to keep a guy in business just because he can't keep up with the competition. Its his responsibility to make his business succeed, not mine. Bud's didn't start as a giant, they came up with a successful business model and succeeded. That is how business works. My LGS's gun orders for inventory are in the $17,000-20,000 range. They keep a couple hundred guns in stock and the guys doesn't really make money selling the guns. The business is also a scrap yard, sporting goods store, gun range, archery range, archery shop, and a clothing store. He makes a very nice profit by diversifying and being smart. I don't think I have a responsibility to make his business work for him if he decides to adopt a less successful business model.

mgkdrgn
February 9, 2012, 09:47 PM
Personally, my local guy who can order guns from a different distributor can beat Bud's EVERY time. He accepts transfer from Bud's, but he'll offer to get it and beat Bud's - this way I get a better price, he makes a profit and stays in business


Can beat Buds .. including the sales tax that Buds won't be charging?

Please please please let me know who that distributor is! I can sometimes afford to =match= Buds ... but once you toss 7% sales tax on top of that ...

mgkdrgn
February 9, 2012, 09:50 PM
Nothing like taking what a person said out of context to make yourself look smart huh? I didn't say I was trying to get rich, nor did I say I was just going to do only transfers. Additionally, I've had quite a few weapons transferred and none of them took more than a few minutes. So between twisting my words and looking smart, you succeeded at one of the two. Nice try though.
Do yourself a favor, come back and re-read this thread AFTER your first full year in the business.

Best of luck to you.

simonm2211
February 9, 2012, 10:10 PM
The LGS has to offer some value because their price is almost always significantly higher. My LGS has CHL courses and a range I use regularly. My FFL does transfers as a side business that introduces people to his main business of customizing guns. Both of these are viable business models.

I have bought more than 10 guns from Buds in the last 12 months and I bought only one gun from a LGS (SR1911) because it was the only place that I could get one. If I hadn't bought from Buds, I would have bought fewer guns simply because my boudget has a limit. So in my mind, Buds is contributing positively to the overall health of the industry and LGSs have to adapt. Or fade away.

Bubba613
February 9, 2012, 10:18 PM
No offense but that's all you do too.

You make orders and fill out paperwork.
No, sir. You have never been in my shop so you have not the slightest freaking idea what I do.
I make orders and fill out paperwork but that is the least part of what i do. I am a salesman, in the highest sense of the term. Dogtown is a paper-pusher, in the worst sense of the term. If he likes it, great. But that isn't what I got into this business to do.

oneounceload
February 9, 2012, 10:23 PM
Can beat Buds .. including the sales tax that Buds won't be charging?

Please please please let me know who that distributor is! I can sometimes afford to =match= Buds ... but once you toss 7% sales tax on top of that ...

He is a local guy here where I live. I was looking for a 642....Bud's has it for 289 delivered....add in the typical; $25 transfer fee and the total is $314.00 - still not bad compared to Gander. he then asked if he could quote me - he did. same gun from his distributor, with tax, profit background, etc....OTD $295.00...........

if folks would simply ASK their local guy what he can do, you might be surprised - my guy buys from a lot of folks, but seems to get his best deals from Sports South, so next time, i will do my research and ask him what he can do. Even if he withing a few bucks including tax, etc., I'll go there, because if I have a problem, he will be there to help instead of just taking a payment to ship it back

oneounceload
February 9, 2012, 10:26 PM
now that someone mentioned harware stores i remember my dad buying guns at western auto.

I bought guns from JC Penney, especially when they were getting out of the gun side of things - great deals

Bubba613
February 9, 2012, 10:49 PM
He is a local guy here where I live. I was looking for a 642....Bud's has it for 289 delivered....add in the typical; $25 transfer fee and the total is $314.00 - still not bad compared to Gander. he then asked if he could quote me - he did. same gun from his distributor, with tax, profit background, etc....OTD $295.00...........
Bud's price is $364. My tag price is 389.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/26498/Smith+%26+Wesson+642+.38+Spl%2BP

BeerSleeper
February 9, 2012, 11:03 PM
For my buds gun transfers, I go out of my way to use an FFL that is not an LGS. (usually a pawnbroker). I love it when it's time to buy a new gun, but I dread having to set foot in a LGS.

In fact, unless you're a retail chain, like a bass pro or a gander mtn., the only first time business you'll get from me is my transfer. If that goes well, maybe you get to second base next time.

If you don't want my business, then I can happily take it somewhere else, and we can both be happy!

Jorg Nysgerrig
February 9, 2012, 11:03 PM
This doesn't seem substantially different than any the other threads where some FFLs insist that transfers are tantamount to going to their house and helping yourself to all their beer and other FFLs insist transfers are as good as printing your own money. I suspect the truth is somewhere it in the middle, but I doubt we're going to sort it out with all this bickering.

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