Bullets very loose in neck after resizing


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Redbearded1
February 10, 2012, 01:40 AM
Hey folks I relatively new to reloading and need some help.

I just got a 30-06 savage and started reloading for it. The Im using Lee reloading equipment, Hornady and federal brass, Hornady 165 gr. sst and gmx bullets. The problem Im having is after neck sizing the cases, The neck is too big and bullets slide right in by hand. The strange thing is that not every case is like this. Ive followed the directions for setting up the die as far as best I could but Never felt the " cam over " at the top of stroke like I read I should feel.

This is my second set of 30-06 dies from lee. The first set was defective and mangled every case I tried to size. I would really appreciate any help I could get from you veteren reloaders out there.

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Friendly, Don't Fire!
February 10, 2012, 01:47 AM
Sorry, I cannot help you, I use all RCBS dies.
Been loading over 30 years and have NEVER had what you described happen, never.

Scimmia
February 10, 2012, 01:49 AM
So you're using a Lee collet neck sizing die? If so, it sounds like you either aren't pressing on the handle hard enough or you don't have the die screwed in far enough. Don't press too hard or you'll strip the cap, but you should see the collet go up into the die then feel it stop as it contacts the mandrel.

Redbearded1
February 10, 2012, 02:03 AM
Yes it is a collet neck sizing die. I screwed the die in until it touched the case holder, Then another full turn. And if I press any harder on the ram My bench is gonna come apart. Thats whats baffling me, I followed directions to a t, and it still isnt right.

Redbearded1
February 10, 2012, 02:04 AM
Sorry, I cannot help you, I use all RCBS dies.
Been loading over 30 years and have NEVER had what you described happen, never.
Thanks buddy, Thats really friggin helpful. Thanks for taking the time to put your 2 cents in.

Scimmia
February 10, 2012, 02:09 AM
Yes it is a collet neck sizing die. I screwed the die in until it touched the case holder, Then another full turn. And if I press any harder on the ram My bench is gonna come apart. Thats whats baffling me, I followed directions to a t, and it still isnt right.

Yeah, directions are not Lee's strong suit. The collet dies really need to be adjusted by feel, not just a number of turns. If you're pressing hard enough that you're afraid for your bench and the cap of the die didn't pop off, you must be hitting the stops on the press. For this die, you don't want it to hit the stops. Screw the die in further, but don't press that hard! Lee says 25 lb of force, which isn't that much. Like I said, you'll see the collet going into the die then feel it stop.

Certaindeaf
February 10, 2012, 02:12 AM
Now I'm skeered. I got a LEE collet for .223 but haven't used it yet.

Scimmia
February 10, 2012, 02:15 AM
No reason to be "skeered" :D.

The collet dies have a bit of a learning curve, but as long as you remember to not press too hard, you'll be fine. If you do press too hard, the threads on the cap will strip and you'll need a new cap, that's all. You really can feel what's happening if you pay attention.

gamestalker
February 10, 2012, 02:19 AM
Alrighty then! No problem, we can get you up and running in no time.
Start by making sure you have the right die. It should have a depriming pin that extends approximately 3/8" from the die mouth.

First snap the shell holder in the ram and then raise the ram to full extended top postion. Now thread your resizing die or neck size die in to the press until it touches the shell holder. Now lower the ram completely and thread the die in another 1/4 turn. Of course, make sure the neck is lubed inside and outside. Don't concern yourself about the cam over thing, especially since your using a neck die. All you want to do is just be sure the ram at full extension it making positive contact with the die, yet doesn't stop the ram from completing the full stroke. You should now have a properely neck sized case.

Redbearded1
February 10, 2012, 02:22 AM
Yeah it didn't help that the full length sizing die part or the directions are unusable because the printed the directions crooked on the paper and half of them got cut off. I'm not super impressed with these lee dies But i havent had troubles with my others and only a poor craftsman blames his tools. Thanks for your help. I'll try that out tomorrow and see if it works.

Certaindeaf
February 10, 2012, 02:36 AM
Alrighty then! No problem, we can get you up and running in no time.
Start by making sure you have the right die. It should have a depriming pin that extends approximately 3/8" from the die mouth.

First snap the shell holder in the ram and then raise the ram to full extended top postion. Now thread your resizing die or neck size die in to the press until it touches the shell holder. Now lower the ram completely and thread the die in another 1/4 turn. Of course, make sure the neck is lubed inside and outside. Don't concern yourself about the cam over thing, especially since your using a neck die. All you want to do is just be sure the ram at full extension it making positive contact with the die, yet doesn't stop the ram from completing the full sstroke. You should now have a properely neck sized case.
Saweet! I hope..:D

OP, I got nothing for you but hope.

Certaindeaf
February 10, 2012, 02:48 AM
It still sounds "skeery".. bending your bench just neck sizing. Does not seem logical. Anyway.. subscribed.

Scimmia
February 10, 2012, 03:32 AM
Careful, the instructions gamestalker gave are for normal neck sizing dies or full length dies, not for collet dies.

Certaindeaf
February 10, 2012, 03:39 AM
OK. I'm going to jam the slug so far up the.. I'm not going to size at all and go all Schuetzen style.

P-32
February 10, 2012, 05:45 AM
I would get a full length size die and use it untill you've reloaded some. You can neck size with a F/L die too. You just don't run the case all the way up. You will need to F/L size once in awhile any ways.

Walkalong
February 10, 2012, 07:25 AM
Just call Lee. They will get you going. And if there is a problem, they will make it right. I have all kinds of dies from all kinds of makers, and they all work.

Grumulkin
February 10, 2012, 07:26 AM
Hey folks I relatively new to reloading and need some help.

I just got a 30-06 savage and started reloading for it. The Im using Lee reloading equipment, Hornady and federal brass, Hornady 165 gr. sst and gmx bullets. The problem Im having is after neck sizing the cases, The neck is too big and bullets slide right in by hand. The strange thing is that not every case is like this. Ive followed the directions for setting up the die as far as best I could but Never felt the " cam over " at the top of stroke like I read I should feel.

This is my second set of 30-06 dies from lee. The first set was defective and mangled every case I tried to size. I would really appreciate any help I could get from you veteren reloaders out there.
You're problem is the reason I hardly ever use Lee Collet Dies any longer. It's a very common problem with them. I have heard, though I've never done it my self, that if you remove a few thousandths of an inch from the neck sizing mandrel it will allow adequate neck sizing. The way to do that is to take the die apart, put the mandrel in a drill or on a lathe and remove some metal with some very fine grit sand paper.

Despite Lee's hooting and tooting about the great accuracy benefits of using Lee Collet Dies, it ain't always so. In a couple of cartridges I load for, cases sized with that die produced less accurate loads than did cases full length sized or sized with the usual neck sizing dies.

rsrocket1
February 10, 2012, 07:43 AM
Unscrew the top cap off. Take out the mandrel and measure it. My mandrel measures 0.3055" and I get perfect neck tension with all my .308 type bullets.

You might also take out the sizing collet thingy and inspect it to make sure there isn't anything trapped in any of the slots or burrs that prevent the petals from closing all the way in.

Walkalong
February 10, 2012, 11:49 AM
Either the collet is to short, or the body is too long, or the mandrel is too big. I guess the diameter could be off on the collet and/or body as well. Call Lee.

918v
February 10, 2012, 11:49 AM
Lookit,

You do not lube the case neck. This is a collet did, not a regular neck die.

Now, this is the way I set up my die. The reason I do it this way is because the collet die is case neck thickness dependent- the thicker the neck the more pressure the die exerts on the brass if you set it up to cam over:

Lower the ram. Screw the die in way past the cam over point. This will also put the shellholder and the case outside the maximum leverage window of the press. Now, stick a case in the shell holder, raise the ram and observe the shellholder touch the collet sticking out of the bottom of the die. Apply pressure with the lever. Put your shoulder into it. Imagine the collet squeezing the case walls against the mandrel. Remove the case. It should now take the bullet and hold it tight. If not, you may have an 8mm mandrel in the die and should replace it with a 30 cal. Mistakes happen.

gamestalker
February 10, 2012, 01:09 PM
My bad!
I missed the part about him using the neck collet die.
Now I too don't use Lee, with the only exception being to their carbide pistol dies.

Good luck, and I wish you lived near by so I could take a look at what's going on.
GS

Certaindeaf
February 10, 2012, 01:40 PM
Red,

I saw this some time ago.. maybe it'll help. Also, it seems to me that the LEE is very dependent upon neck thickness consistency. I could be wrong though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mhTUgytUGnM

Romeo 33 Delta
February 10, 2012, 02:37 PM
Here's what I do:

1. Make sure the cap on the top of the die is TIGHT!
2. Make sure the collet "floats" ... doesn't stick, when you push it.
3. Adjust the die depth until you are just unable to get the lever to cam over
with the maximum pressure you plan to apply with the handle.
4. When you cycle the ram, hold the handle down for 5 seconds before
you release it ... seems to help with consistency.

Neck thickness, brass hardness and variations can be a problem, For example, I use FNM brass for my 7.5 X 54 MAS and have encountered a few pieces of brass (-50 out of 200?) where the bullet was not as tight as I would normally find. Now, was it me? On these pieces of brass, am I dealing with harder brass (work hardened or just old?) that means I cannot squeeze it enough or there's too much spring back? Don't know ... but it's rare. On the other hand, I just finished over 600 rounds of .303 (Rem brass + Rem Bullets), 100 rounds of 7.7 X 58 (Norma brass? + Rem bullets), 300 rounds of 7.65 X 53 (Norma brass? + Rem bullets) ... all with collet dies ... all bullets were nice and tight.

I generally DO NOT use military brass ... Remington, first choice, Winchester, second choice. Commercial brass always seems to be more "friendly" and of better quality (IMO).

Just my 2 cents and observations but there always seem to be quirky things in the learning curve of tools ... learned many ... still learning more. Hope this helps.

sugarmaker
February 10, 2012, 02:49 PM
You should be able to feel the die squeeze the case at the top of the press stroke, kinda like seating a primer has a "feel" when it's there. If you follow the lee instructions they want the die screwed way down in the press to protect the die. Trouble is most presses have very little leverage that far down and you won't get consistent results. I prefer sizing near top dead center. I can see damaging the die in some presses that cam over (like my rockchucker), but some guys can break anvils also. Make sure the top of the collet petals has a little lube. It actually takes a fair amount of force to work this die, which is why i like it to be TDC on a cam over press, exactly what the directions say NOT to do. Just be careful, once it's adjusted it'll work fine. the die IS somewhat sensitive to mouth wall thickness, so I'd stick to a single lot of brass to avoid lots of re-adjustment hassles.

Certaindeaf
February 10, 2012, 03:11 PM
If we could only find someone that loads 200 different calibers and uses the LEE collet for over 100 we would be saved.
Anyway, I feel better now, even though I haven't used my single LEE collet yet.
Thanks.

popper
February 10, 2012, 04:16 PM
Same experience for me in .243 and 30-30. Not enough consistency, have to check them with a bullet before you prime and powder the case. Neat idea, just too much trouble. Get a F/L die and learn how to partial size. Much more consistent results.

Certaindeaf
February 10, 2012, 04:32 PM
Same experience for me in .243 and 30-30. Not enough consistency, have to check them with a bullet before you prime and powder the case. Neat idea, just too much trouble. Get a F/L die and learn how to partial size. Much more consistent results.
People actually use these for consistency. What were you saying?

Redbearded1
February 10, 2012, 07:25 PM
Thanks alot for all the info guys. It took some work getting it adjusted but now its working good. Finicky thing. I appreciate all the responses, it really helped my understand how that die actually works. I just wish lee would give better instructions.

Redbearded1
February 11, 2012, 03:12 AM
Well after sizing 60 rounds, priming them, loading them up with powder and trying to seat the bullets I discovered that the cases werent actually sized properly. The bullets only needed a bit of pressure to send them into the case. Some of them would fall into the case but not come out without pliers. ****. After getting mad and rammy I finally put enough pressure on the ram to get the neck sized right(i think) and I cracked my reloading bench after 20 rounds. ughh......Not a fan of these collet dies.

twofifty
February 11, 2012, 03:52 AM
Throwing this out there as it may be relevant to the OP or others...

I've noticed that if a case has been fired too many times, the neck resize does not "take". The brass has work hardened, and so it resizes poorly. Same thing happens with a normal FL die.

I don't anneal cases, so once a case refuses to neck size properly -regardles of the type of die used- I consider that it has reached its safe working life.

Pete D.
February 11, 2012, 06:36 AM
I have used the collet dies for more than 20 years. It could be that the die in question needs to be adjusted as mentioned earlier....so that the ram is a bit down from full when the die meets the shellholder.
But....maybe not the situation here....I have found that when the collet will not size the neck, nine times out of ten the brass is too hard and should be annealed.
I have had it happen that the die worked properly as advertised and then, without changing anything on that dedicated press, the die would not size.
Annealing solved the problem. Every time.
Pete

Jaxondog
February 11, 2012, 07:40 AM
Get a neck sizer and forget about the collet die , that is if you are loading that shell in the same gun. If to be shot in other gun's use a FL resizer and be happy

Fatelvis
February 11, 2012, 08:33 AM
The strange thing is that not every case is like this.
Is all the brass you're using of the same brand and lot#?

kingmt
February 11, 2012, 04:00 PM
You should be able to feel the die squeeze the case at the top of the press stroke, kinda like seating a primer has a "feel" when it's there. If you follow the lee instructions they want the die screwed way down in the press to protect the die. Trouble is most presses have very little leverage that far down and you won't get consistent results. I prefer sizing near top dead center. I can see damaging the die in some presses that cam over (like my rockchucker), but some guys can break anvils also. Make sure the top of the collet petals has a little lube. It actually takes a fair amount of force to work this die, which is why i like it to be TDC on a cam over press, exactly what the directions say NOT to do. Just be careful, once it's adjusted it'll work fine. the die IS somewhat sensitive to mouth wall thickness, so I'd stick to a single lot of brass to avoid lots of re-adjustment hassles.
This is how I adjust the die. Just enough to fell a slight cam over. I have only done a few 1K in 4 different calibers but no problems yet.

helotaxi
February 11, 2012, 04:18 PM
I've been using the collet sizer dies in .204, .223, .243 and .308 since I started loading about 4 years ago. Never had the slightest problem with consistency or concentricity. You shouldn't need to use that much force to properly size the neck. If it feels excessive, it probably is. That said, you need to make sure you have a sturdy bench.

Make sure that the mandrel is the correct diameter, as mentioned above. On a single stage or turret, I like the die set so that the lever is at least 20deg from the cam-over point when the collect starts to squeeze. I actually set it with a piece of brass in the shell holder. Otherwise you really don't know where you stand.

kingmt
February 11, 2012, 04:41 PM
What press are you using?

Redbearded1
February 11, 2012, 08:28 PM
The cases are once fired hornady custom, federal, and hornady superformance seperated into lots. It doesn't seem to matter which group I size, there are some that size and others that won't. The press is a lee breech lock challenger. I finally was able to exert enough force to produce the lines on the case but there was alot of force required. More than the 25 pounds it calls for. I like the idea of the collet sizer, but this is bordering on more effort than it's worth.

helotaxi
February 11, 2012, 09:25 PM
Something's not right then. Take the die apart. Clean it. Lightly hit the tapered portion of the collet and the forcing cone with some emory cloth and lube those two surfaces with a drop of oil. The die should operate smoothly and brass isn't that hard to swage.

Romeo 33 Delta
February 11, 2012, 09:39 PM
Again, I'm not trying to beat this to death, but a couple of questions.

1. Die collet is not binding ... you can push it in and out freely.

2. Die is adjusted in press so you are just short of camming over.

3. When the collet touches the shellholder and you apply more pressure on
handle, you can actually "feel" the neck being squeezed by the collet
against the mandrel.

If you want to PM me with your address, I'll send a set of instructions off to you since yours were damaged. I really want to get you up and running on the collet die because it has been a MAJOR time saver for me. Not withstanding a previous posters smart comment, I do have considerable experience with Lee collet dies; he can accept that or not, I don't care.

It's YOUR problem that's got my attention.

I don't know if you can or want to try this, but I'd love to see a couple of your problem cases. I'd like to run them on my setup and send them back for your review.

I don't work for Lee, don't own any stock, just a satisfied customer and if it's worth it for you to continue forward with this ... it's worth it for me to be of whatever help I can be.

Cheers,

Bill

Gillie Dog
February 11, 2012, 11:18 PM
I have used the collet dies for more than 20 years. It could be that the die in question needs to be adjusted as mentioned earlier....so that the ram is a bit down from full when the die meets the shellholder.
But....maybe not the situation here....I have found that when the collet will not size the neck, nine times out of ten the brass is too hard and should be annealed. I have had it happen that the die worked properly as advertised and then, without changing anything on that dedicated press, the die would not size.
Annealing solved the problem. Every time.
Pete

+1

Every time I have had this problem, and it has happend, the brass needed annealing and once annealed it sized perfectly with very consistant neck tension. With Winchester brass and hot 22-250 loads I only get 2 firings out of them before collet sizing is inconsistant. The same has happened with FL dies to me also. I am sold on annealing brass when needed.

GD

Certaindeaf
February 11, 2012, 11:44 PM
.Not withstanding a previous posters smart comment, I do have considerable experience with Lee collet dies; he can accept that or not, I don't care..
Bill,
I saw your deletion and was being facetious. I meant no slight.

nastynatesfish
February 12, 2012, 11:15 AM
i use lee collets for every rifle i own and havent had a problem with them. if its not doing it to every piece of brass and your useing the same technique then its something with your brass. what type of brass are you using? i had some issues like this with some frontier brass i bought for a 2506, i went back to winchester and not a problem. your only suppose to use about 25lbs of pressure to operate the collet jaws in the die. if you keep having the issue and your possitive its not you call lee and tell them that the die is screwing up. send them the brass your having problems with and they will check it.

Romeo 33 Delta
February 12, 2012, 01:22 PM
And I'm sorry too for my swipe at your comment!

Sometimes I forget what I know to be true, that computer posts are completely devoid of any ability for the reader to attach any "emotion" (which you can do with the spoken word) to the text.

What I should have done was read between the lines and NOT be so oversensitive ... almost like just spoiling for a confrontation. I'm really NOT like that and I thank you for your response and I feel more than a little ashamed at myself. Like they say: "no harm, no foul".:)

popper
February 12, 2012, 02:49 PM
About 240 pieces of .243 once fired brass, Lee N/S loaded with Amax or SP. Brass appeared to be sized but variation in tension was terrible. Some J-B would set back by hand, others were fine. Nothing like priming and dropping powder and then dumping the case 'cause the bullet won't fit correctly. 30-30 is also a PITA. FCD for bottle neck is a neat idea also, BUT if you blow out the neck for YOUR rifle, the neck is often too short to get FCD'd properly, so I drop it in from the top.

FROGO207
February 12, 2012, 04:04 PM
OP-----I do not know where you stand at the moment. If you have calipers does your mandrel (rod in the middle) measure .307? Does the bullet measure .308? If you look down the center of the die with no round in it and with the top and mandrel removed when you raise the ram until it stops do the four collet ears come together? You will probably need a flashlight for this step. Then the die is working correctly as this is how mine work. If not where are you having a difference? The mandrel should be .001 smaller than the bullet for a tight fit. It is possible that you got a second die that is defective. Mine have worked well for years also.

I was told by another reloader that running a Lee collet die up and tightly without a brass in it could cause the flexible ears to jam and not work correctly. Never happened to me but wanted to mention it for your info. Might be irreverent.

kingmt
February 12, 2012, 07:57 PM
I have been watching to see if you ever measured the mandreal.

Redbearded1
February 13, 2012, 12:39 AM
Hey folks, I haven't had a chance to take the die apart and check it out, cleaning, smoothing and lubing as you say. My main focus this weekend was building a new table top for my loading bench to fix where it was cracked. Im hoping to get everything set up again in a day or two.

I bought a digital caliper but the darn thing doesn't work right either! The digital scale reads half of what the ruler shows. So I'll have to take it back and get another before I can check the mandrel.

Thanks for all your efforts guys. I'll keep you posted as soon as I'm back in business, hopefully by Tuesday.

kingmt
February 13, 2012, 06:35 AM
2 things are you reading the scale on the right side & did you zero it?

Redbearded1
February 16, 2012, 01:15 AM
Okay everybody, I got my bench fixed and built it a little more stout. I also took e die apart, cleaned it, smoothed out a few rough edges on the collet fingers and the piece the collet slides into, re-cleaned and lightly oiled the die. Everything seems to be working fine now. I didn't really notice until I started using my press on the new bench, but my old one had a fair amount of flex that possible took away from the torque applied when sizing the brass. I'm not sure if it was that or the few imperfections on the die but I'm happy with the results. Thank you all for your effort and support. It made this situation much less frustrating.

kingmt
February 16, 2012, 06:47 AM
Flex in the bench does cause problems.

GooseGestapo
February 16, 2012, 10:11 AM
Not a "slam" against the Challenger, but I had one when they first came out back in the '80's. They are Aluminum castings and flex a great deal. I gave mine to my younger brother. He loads little, and shoots less, so he's satisifed with the Challenger.

I typically use one of the Lee "Classic" cast Iron presses. It is the equal of the RCBS RockChucker and Lyman Orange Crusher.

I think that you're also getting a lot of flex from the press.
I'd think that the AL press and Collet dies aren't a good match. BTW I've also "broken" two Lee JR's. These are decent little presses but aren't up to extensive loading. (like reforming 8mm to .257Roberts.....). BTW I also have some Collet dies, but seldom use them. I'd suggest ordering a Lee FL die to complement your Collet die. There are places and times for the collet die, but they aren't the only "fish in the sea"....

Save up and get a stronger press. Save the Challenger for loading pistol ammo, ect....

Redbearded1
February 16, 2012, 02:24 PM
Not a "slam" against the Challenger, but I had one when they first came out back in the '80's. They are Aluminum castings and flex a great deal. I gave mine to my younger brother. He loads little, and shoots less, so he's satisifed with the Challenger.

I typically use one of the Lee "Classic" cast Iron presses. It is the equal of the RCBS RockChucker and Lyman Orange Crusher.

I think that you're also getting a lot of flex from the press.
I'd think that the AL press and Collet dies aren't a good match. BTW I've also "broken" two Lee JR's. These are decent little presses but aren't up to extensive loading. (like reforming 8mm to .257Roberts.....). BTW I also have some Collet dies, but seldom use them. I'd suggest ordering a Lee FL die to complement your Collet die. There are places and times for the collet die, but they aren't the only "fish in the sea"....

Save up and get a stronger press. Save the Challenger for loading pistol ammo, ect....
I do have the fl die as well. Came with the collet die and bullet seating die. I just figured if I have the collet die, and have paid for it, I might as well be able to use it.
I do plan on upgrading most if my equipment eventually. But so far other than this hiccup the lee stuff has worked pretty well for the price.

rupe01
February 16, 2012, 05:47 PM
Wow.....this thread REALLY shows how great the guys and help is on these forums, doesn't it? Its great to be a part of this community! We are never on our own with a problem here.

Blue68f100
February 16, 2012, 06:39 PM
rupe01, Welcome to THR

You said it, a wealth of knowledge on his site.

rupe01
February 18, 2012, 03:53 PM
Thanks Blue

Certaindeaf
February 18, 2012, 06:17 PM
Red,

That's great! First rule of reloading is have stout upon stout.. unless you're Tongtooling etc. lol.

x_wrench
February 19, 2012, 10:46 AM
im not sure where you are, as there are 3 pages of reply's now, and reading all of them would just hurt my eyes. did you go to the lee website and watch their video on how to set up the dies? the videos are actually pretty good. the trouble i have had with the lee collet is i kept adjusting it to far, and the cap would loose its treads. and yes, the lee collet die does take a lot of pressure. i like the hornady neck sizers much better.

918v
February 19, 2012, 02:32 PM
That's why you should set it way past that point. That way no amount of torque from the handle will rear the cap off. There is no rule that mandates we work within the maximum leverage window of the press.

popper
February 19, 2012, 04:21 PM
Certaindeaf - I dumped my challenger press and got a Lee cast, turns out that is not the problem. Yes, I emory'd the parts and lubed. Once fired Fed brass, same force, some bullets (Hornady AMax, 243, FTX 30-30) drop into the case, some are OK, won't push back into the case. Bullets mik's OK, so now I just use the F/L sizer and barely push the shoulder back. Yes, I annealed some and it made NO difference. I just use it to de-cap now and use the F/L without the expander, 'M' die to expand.
Red - did you check the units on the digital mik? Inches vs mm.

kingmt
February 19, 2012, 07:32 PM
I have been watching to see where you are with this die also.

Redbearded1
February 21, 2012, 10:46 PM
I did watch the videos on the lee site as well as a few on youtube. They are pretty good but I tried setting my die up exactly the way they show before but to no avail. Once the die was cleaned, shined up, oiled, bench rebuilt and more force was used it started to work fine. I cant say what exactly the problem was. I havent bought new calipers yet. I use the exact same brand at work and its not that they arent zeroed or in the wrong scale. The calipers are just faulty. They are still accurate very accurate........if you want to multiply all the readings by 2 all the time.

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